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Unpacking the Trey Hillman Hire

Its now been a few days since the Royals announced that Trey Hillman will manage the team in 2008, in what was an unexpectedly quick managerial search process, at least publicly. Less than a day after Hillman was mentioned as a serious candidate, the Royals went ahead and made it official, a full four days before the bells, whistles, and middle aged man in a suit with a baseball jersey draped over him coronation cum press conference. In the days since, we've had a seal of approval column from JoePo (not surprising) and lots of nice quotes from both unnamed insiders and blogosphere netizens thrown the Royals' way. Here at Royals Review, the Hillman-is-Hired post swelled to 100+ comments, the vast majority of which were ranging from positive to giddy. Buddy Bell burned through about three times as much goodwill as he had actually earned during his September to forget, so its likely that a re-hiring of Tony Muser would have been greeted with applause. Still, there can be no denying that the incredibly small, not really like us in anyway, group of people who get to be "baseball people" in this country all like Trey Hillman, just like they all like Dayton Moore. For whatever thats worth, that is the reality.

Honestly though, if you want to reach any conclusion from this hiring, it should be an incredibly muted one, one fully aware of just how limited in importance a baseball manager really is. In fact, this is just what I would suggest we all take away from this brief news cycle; namely, this just isn't that big a deal. In reality, the manager is much more important to the men who have to write 162 game recaps a season than it is to anyone else.

Baseball just isn't like other sports in a few simple but very profound ways. First, attitude and desire, beyond a minimum requirement of paying attention and caring, just aren't as important in baseball as they are in other sports. A linebacker may benefit from playing with an animalistic rage , but that isn't going to help you hit a curveball. In fact, its going to hurt you. Thus, baseball has developed a whole counter-mythos of how a good manager can keep a team "relaxed", which is mostly just another brand of hokum. Still, you can read a mid-June recap story and pretty regularly see a pregame screamfest or fishing trip or a nod to something less printable credited with making all the difference. Second, for all the obsession with small-ball, putting runners in motion, etc. there still aren't actually "plays" in baseball to anything like the extent there are in football or basketball. Not in terms of quantity, not in terms of precision, and not in terms of importance. Even a blessed decision to bunt is only relevant because over 200 earlier pitcher/hitter battles all went in a certain direction. Thirdly, over the course of both a game, and a season, everybody has to play. Thats the beauty of the batting order. Its obvious, but I don't think we give it enough credit. A basketball coach can have LeBron take every big shot (hell, every small shot too) but you can't do this in baseball. Imagine a basketball game in which the players had to shoot in a predetermined order throughout the game: it be a wildly different sport. Over the course of a full game, the difference between the best and worst batting order is, roughly, a run. Again, thats at the worst extreme. What matters is who is in the batting order at all, not the particular sequence.

Yes, to an extent, a manager can influence the handling of the pitching staff more strongly, but not as much as you might think. The days of guys throwing 135 pitches for no reason are over, and, at the same time, the days of a non-closer-centric bullpen aren't fully here yet. Moreover, our game, once again, isn't the NFL, no matter how much Selig wants us to treat it as such. Over 162 games, a thin roster is going to become apparent, and, at some point, Scruffy McScrub is going to take the mound with a game on the line, but baring multiple injuries, Matt Cassell is never going to lead the Patriots down the field with the game on the line.

Even a seventeenth-century English poet with a drinking problem and a penchant for biting and vindictive satire couldn't do much damage as a manager.

Just to extend the point, imagine for a moment the worst possible manager. He arranges the lineup completely backwards, always bunts at the wrong time, calls for double steals with Billy Butler and John Buck on base, pulls the starter at the wrong time for 162 consecutive games and manages the bullpen with the use of a Magic 8 Ball toy and an astrolabe. If this manager has a particularly weird and uneven roster -- a big if -- his behavior might cost the team something like 15-20 wins. Again, this is with, say, a renaissance poet brought to life as the manager. Maybe 20 wins, if he takes the '03 Giants and bats Bonds 9th, etc. etc.

Well, as we might say, Andrew Marvell, isn't walking through that door. So among guys that could end up with the job, what are we really talking about here? Over the course of 162 games, I'd suggest somewhere between 3-6 games, and thats at the extreme. For most managers, its probably much smaller. Remember, who are these guys all managing against? Guys exactly like them, who are all managing the same way.

Lets look at a situation that I think is fairly realistic as an example: the game is tied in the bottom of the 7th, and Ross Gload explodes for a  single to lead off the inning. Hillman then lifts Gload for a pinch-runner, say, a Joe McEwing type, who will play the last two innings at first. Hillman then orders that Alex Gordon, who's hitting .280/.355/.511 in his second seasons, to drop a bunt down, because he believes that Emil Brown, who stands on-deck, is a good "RBI-man".

This is, I think, a series of bad decisions, all down the line. The odds are pretty good the McEwing type is going to bat again and taking the bat out of Gordon's hands to ask Emil Brown to rope a single -- a single that also can't be a rocket-shot to left field -- both hurts the chance of a big inning, and isn't a great bet to begin with.

Nevertheless, Gordon bunts, while both team's TV guys praise the move and talk about Hillman's Japanese experiences and style.

The fact of the matter is, while it is a bad call, it also could still "work". Bunts lead to errors with a small but real increased frequency, and, who knows, Emil might rope a single, as might John Buck behind him.

The bottom line is that baseball is a game of failure, and the odds were against Gordon succeeding anyway. If Mike Brown draws a play that takes the ball out of LeBron's hand's and puts it in, say, Drew Gooden's, thats a much larger discrepancy, especially factoring foul-call potential. Furthermore, even though this is basically the nightmare scenario of small-ball use ,even if Hillman wanted to, he's only gonna get one or two chances all year to do this.

As long as the manager doesn't get anyone injured, doesn't egregiously bury a young player for no reason and correctly fills out the lineup card, its all good. (The last manager we had was iffy on all three.)

Sadly, the coverage of sports in this century has become moralistic and personality-driven, which  has made coaches, in all sports, dis-proportionally obsessed upon. I'm not old enough to fully state if it was always this way, but my sense is it was not. Essentially, every postgame contest now gets squeezed into a "this guy choked/this guy is clutch" narrative, when 90% of the time nothing remarkable happened. Quite often, "this coach can't win the big game" or "this coach pulled the pants down on the other coach" is also a part of the equation. There are many reasons why this kind of analysis might be appealing -- the desire to reduce a football game played by scores of mostly African-American men to a battle of wits between two middle-aged white guys seems to be commonplace -- but more often than not its just not correct.

With Trey Hillman -- yes, I should say something about him -- there will be a strong desire to revert to this narrative. His supposed strengths are an emphasis on the morally-superior "fundamentals" and his strong character, which includes his religious beliefs. The players themselves are not immune to this way of thinking. Even a robotic, atheistic manager would get his share of praise if the team played better. As I've tried to show before on this site, sometimes on  back to back days the story can completely change. One day the manager keeps 'em loose, the next he won't let 'em back down, and on and on...

So with regards to Trey Hillman, if you seek a RR verdict, here it is: as with the Bell firing/mystery, what is actually most important is what we can learn about Dayton Moore from all this. While it may sound backwards, the desire to play smallball is actually scarier than any attempt to play it. If Moore's idea of fixing the offense is to bunt more as opposed to signing a guy who can actually, you know, hit, then that is the problem, not the bunts Hillman later calls. If Dayton Moore looks at Jorge de la Rosa and thinks the problem is "fundamentals" and hustle, and not an inability to know where the ball is going, then that is the problem.

I don't fully discount the "leader of men" aspect, although I do think it is both greatly overblown and irrelevant most of the time. If the Royals hired me, they would quickly have a problem in the clubhouse because I wouldn't get any respect, guys wouldn't listen, probably wouldn't respect curfew, wouldn't take extra BP, etc. But, just like in the Andrew Marvell is now the manager scenario, the Royals aren't going to hire me. Ninety-five percent of the guys who get hired are from central casting, and get respected as long as they themselevs don't act like buffons. Trey Hillman, no doubt, is in that category.

In baseball terms, Trey Hillman is merely a figment of Dayton's imagination.

A professional baseball team is not the same as a group of waiters, office clerks or teachers. On the whole, these guys are already incredibly driven -- there is no real straight from high school phenomena in baseball -- and fixated on success. Moreover, and this is a key distinction, in their job, unlike most of ours, performance is rewarded mightily. While its easy and fun to bemoan the salary structure, the fact that a 10% improvement in performance can bring a 50% improvement in pay probably, on the whole, produces an ever increasing talent level. Its something of an insult to think that these guys really need a manager to inspire them beyond a certain point.

Personally, and I do mean that literally and in reference to what Hillman's personality might be, I like the fact that he paid his dues. He's managed in the minor leagues and he's managed very far from home. I admire that, and it makes him someone I want to root for. Buddy Bell was a vaguely-liked good ole boy insider who had already received numerous chances before the Royals mysteriously hired him. This is not the case here.      

I also like the fact that he has been willing to adapt and change his ways, even if I still believe that under no circumstances is setting a record for sacrifices a good play. You aren't winning because of that as it is, you're winning because of your pitching staff.

Hillman has had to work for this and he's shown an open mind, which is more than we can say for the last guy. For that, we should all be happy.

Still, this is the sportswriter's holiday, not mine, and it is their task to start getting the story templates ready for a long season. Beyond the dithering over fundamentals and small ball we're sure to see, there's the fact that Hillman's a fresh voice, and he's young, so there can be good fodder there. A historically minded piece might be a return to Whiteyball, although this will require DeJesus and Gator actually successfully stealing bases. Heck, there might even be the "Buddy laid the foundation, now its paying off" angle, which we're seeing with Cowboys coverage right now. Most interestingly, there is the sensitive matter of Hillman's religion. We don't yet know how often he'll mention it, and generally speaking the press corps usually handles these things rather gently, only busting out a direct reference or story about it rarely.

In sum, its a press conference and a happy day for Trey Hillman. Its also possibly another set of clues into just what team Dayton Moore wants to build. Its possible that looking at three or four transactions next month will be both more worthwhile, and more relevant.

And don't be afraid to call me out next May, when I'm already jaded and posting that Hillman cost us the game.

   

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wow
that must have taken awhile. nice though.

i'm in the belief that a bad manager can hurt your team, but a good manager can't really help too much. i'm just looking for hillman to establish a plan for our hitters (plate discipline) and eliminate stupid decisions (pinch hitting Pena with Huber on the bench).

by doublestix on Oct 22, 2007 2:30 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

yea...
I think Sheehan calls it the "do no harm" approach, thats basically where I am at at this point

by royalsreview on Oct 22, 2007 3:33 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would be shocked
If he is a bunter here. He clearly prefers the big-inning, draw walks and home runs style, and I'm sure he recognizes the American League is much different from the Japanese League. He seems to understand park factors. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

"Well, as we might say, Andrew Marvell, isn't walking through that door."

Brilliant.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Oct 22, 2007 10:04 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Great diary, Will
That was an excellent article on the lack of importance of of a manager.  A writer at BP recently said that the closest thing there is to a consensus in the world of baseball researchers is that the quality of a manager means basically +/- 2 to 3 wins over the course of a season.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 11:08 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Hillman knows "how" to win
My subject line here is intentionally provocative.  The phrase "X knows how to win" is mostly blasted as naive and reductive and over-simplistic and probably rightly so.  But I would also suggest that the phrase actually has a relevant meaning in sports.  Not in the nebulous, attitudinal, gritty gutty sense, but in the strategic and tactical senses.

In one sense it means that the person knows what he has to do to put his players in the most advantageous position, and knows how then to employ those players once they are in that position.  He knows the mechanics of winning baseball.  He understands leverage and matchups and psychology(not a dirty word...).  The other  sense is simply that the person has won before and therefore knows what it's like to win.  Based on what I have read about Hillman and what I have gleaned from his team's records and statistics, he seems like the former.

There's been quite a bit of consternation about the frequency of sacrifices that Hillman's Ham Fighters employed this season.  But even the most dogmatic SABR-rattler knows that one-run strategies are advantageous in close-and-late situations, which are likely to be common in well-pitched games.  He had a great pitching staff and a bad offense this year, so the fact that Hillman traded an out for higher probability of a run in situations where that's the right tactical decision should be seen as a positive rather than a negative or cause for wariness.  The logical leap from "This guy called for a lot of sacrifices" to "Get ready to watch Alex Gordon bunt in the 8th" is spurious at best.

As for the "it doesn't matter" argument, I find it irresponsible.  The various parts of a team are either adding wins or adding losses.  The best season in MLB history added "only" 16 wins over replacement.  If a good-great manager can add 3-6 wins over the course of a season, he's the equivalent of a good player.  No, that won't turn a 70-win team into a 90-win team, but it can be the difference between an 85-win team and a WS trophy.

More broadly, the above post was incredibly depressing because of its blatant nihilism.  Either these choices matter concretely or they don't.  If the Royals manager matters only as a symbol of the franchise's direction under a new GM, then so do 80% of the personnel decisions.  I don't buy it.  Every move is important in and of itself, not because of some obscure symbolism, but because of what it means to the team on the field.

Trey Hillman knows "how" to win baseball games; Buddy Bell, by all appearances, does not.  The Royals will be a better team next year with Trey Hillman filling out the lineup card.

by Billex Gordler on Oct 22, 2007 11:14 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't say its nihilism per se...
just skepticism
  • I agree that a manager can lose games for you, but the problem is knowing which games they were. Would pitcher X have not given up that 3-run HR in the 7th? Maybe, but we'll never actually know. There is no baseline replacement level manager performance to compare these guys to.
  • I probably didn't express it well, but part of what is at issue here is that all these guys manage the same way. Buddy might have cost the team 5 games last season, but Eric Wedge cost the team 4, etc. etc. So ultimately, its all a wash.

by royalsreview on Oct 22, 2007 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"It's all a wash"
Sounds like nihilism to me.  Simply because we're not able to understand and then accurately quantify a manager's effect doesn't mean there is no effect.

The 3-6 game number is a result of the SABR community's  desire to reduce a manager to the sum of his tactical decisions.  What no one can determine, though, is whether this is a relevant approach to the problem.  All that that research tells us is that a manager has at least zero effect on a team's performance.  Yawn.  It's when I look at results like these that I think that Gary Huckabay is right--Analysis is dead.

by Billex Gordler on Oct 22, 2007 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nihilism or reality
I think Will is just recognize the true degree to which managers are important.  And it is a pretty small degree.  They are not completely unimportant.  Nor are they particularly important.  They are probably 2-3 wins/losses important.  Basically about as important as an average middle reliever.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

3-6 games
with a certain roster

your tactics are only going to be relevant if you have a roster stacked with talented guys that you are utilizing

not sure that applies to us

Anyone but Terry

by FireBell on Oct 22, 2007 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"Probably"
Is a HUGE word.  Because it represents the unknown and unknowable.

I'm not arguing that the Manager is the most important man in an organization.  What I'm arguing is that every decision that an organization makes has a cumulative net effect and that analysis is limited to measuring that net effect with imperfect tools.  I think that the middle reliever comparison is particularly bad because a manager's effect on an organization is yielded over the period of years, whereas a middle reliever is only as good as his current year.

Some teams are good enough or bad enough that the manager doesn't matter much.  But for marginal teams, marginal differences matter disproportionately.

by Billex Gordler on Oct 22, 2007 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Long-term effects
I agree with your post in general.  However, I suspect that you are exaggerating the long-term effects of a manager on an organization.  Yes, a manager can overuse a pitcher and blow out his arm.  Yes a manager can keep a player on the bench, thus slowing his development.  But I think those long-term effects are fairly rare.  The vast majority of a manager's actions are operative only during a particular game or a particular season with no long-term effects.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agree with you
Especially on the subject of blowing out arms or blocking young talent.

If anything, I'm probably overestimating the effect that a great organization (especially the GM and manager) can have on a player.  I've argued before here that sports organizations are highly inefficient creatures and that players' careers are mutable things.  A player's career is not set in stone; any given outcome is not inevitable.  Great organizations turn flawed players into good players and great players into legends.

Simply because we can measure that a good middle reliever wins 2-3 games doesn't tell us a thing about how much of that success is due to the tutelage of his organization and how much is due to raw talent.  An organization can't turn a 2-win player into a 10-win player, but it doesn't seem impossible that it can turn a 2-win player into a 5-win player.

by Billex Gordler on Oct 22, 2007 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

An organization's effect on a player
I certainly agree with you in general that an organization can make a player better or worse.  A player's organization does indeed have an impact (sometimes a very serious impact) on his development. But, how much of that impact is due to the manager?  I would think that the general manager who makes the decision at which level the minor league player plays and how quickly he moves through the system and when or if that player gets to the majors is the most important factor.  I would also think that minor league instructors, coaches and managers would be more important to a player's development than his major league manager because it is at the lower levels where the player really learns how to play the game.  I think a player learns and develops much more during his time in the minors than in his time in the majors.  Certainly a player's developmental curve is much more steep in the 18-23 years than in the 24-29 years.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just out of curiousity
Who were your top choices for manager RR?
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Oct 22, 2007 12:23 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I never got around to thinking about it
I figured we'd still have a few more weeks to rumor monger on the issue.

I think Jim Tracy did a good job in LA a few years ago. They always had good bullpens and he used alot of platoons to try to squeeze offense out of that roster.

I also have always liked Bobby Valentine, who sometimes says interesting things. But, I've read that he was actually pretty brutal back in his Texas days...

Leo Mazzone might have been a fun choice, but I think the Baltimore experience destroyed him.

Honestly, I was pretty anti-retread, but, the only guys  I really know about are retreads, so... yea.

Really though, I'm not anti-Hillman or anything, not unless today's presser is 90 minutes on "playing the game the right way"...

by royalsreview on Oct 22, 2007 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"Playing the game the right way"
Expect those and similar cliches from any GM or manager.  That is a meaningless phrase and deep meaning about managerial philosophy shouldn't be read into that or any other cliche.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bring back Pena
Anyone but Terry

by FireBell on Oct 22, 2007 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

no no

by FlintHillsRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

HERE"S MY QUESTION
Is Hillman supposed to be a bad-cop kinda manager?

Just playing off the good-cop/bad-cop thing is probably the most important thing. When Buddy was hired he seemed like he was gonna kinda be a hardass, and made some comments about the lockerroom being lazy, etc. etc.

But by the end, he seemed a softie...

Anyone have thoughts??

Anyone but Terry

by FireBell on Oct 22, 2007 1:13 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

My impression
Is that he's a good cop. Players seem to like him. I don't think he's a softie by any means, but I don't get the impression he's hard on his players either. I mean, they asked him if they could have longer practices!

However, he did rub some players the wrong way when he played younger better players instead of a veteran. I actually like that he did that.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Oct 22, 2007 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting read
Will, I think you are a fine writer, if that ends up being your career choice, I think you will excel at it.

I have a few comments:

3-6 wins, if accurate, is potentially VERY significant. Division titles and wild card berths are frequently decided by less.

I think that every decision GMDM makes is potentially important - even those that seemingly impact the bottom line just a little. Add up a whole bunch of little "wins" in his decision making, and it might add up to a "lot" one day, instead of just a little.

Manager performance has to be, by definition, a zero-sum game, right? I mean, the whole idea is for your manager to be better than everybody else's manager, correct? Estimating this is, of course, something that sabermetrics may or may not be good at doing at this time.

Lastly, Will implies that short of three major crimes, any manager employed will, more or less, be very similar to any other manager. I would feel remiss if I didn't echo Will's sentiment regarding our last manager. While I don't think we can say for sure he caused any injuries, my opinion on the other two major crimes is STRONGLY that he violated those. Not playing young guys in September, along with not playing Butler at 1B, all fall under the category of burying a young player egregiously to me. I don't want to type all day, so let's just say I'm down with the notion that he didn't correctly fill out the lineup card either.

by loyal2s dad on Oct 22, 2007 1:25 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

yes, but...
At the end of the 2008 season, the september callup issue may be irrelevant
Anyone but Terry

by FireBell on Oct 22, 2007 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've said this before
Even if it's only 2 to 3 games, then damn it I want to WIN those games and not lose them.  

As fans, we are always going to question the manager.  Braves fans question Bobby Cox.  I'm not sure if any of them can name games and situations as quickly as we can, however.  For instance..Bringing in Jason Standridge in extras in Baltimore when we had other pitchers rested and available.  Batting Costa 4th.  The whole pinch running with Huber while pinch hitting with Pena debacle.  Who knows what the outcome of those games might have been, but I don't think we would be sitting here begging for Standridge to pitch or Pena to hit or would have even thought about batting Costa 4th..ever.  

Honestly..I think what makes it harder for us fans is that the local media never held Bell accountable for those decisions, so we are left just assuming that Bell's an idiot.  Maybe he had legit reasons..I don't know.  Maybe I'm just tired of losing.  Obviously is easy not to second guess a manager when he has better talent available.  Bell did manage the bullpen better starting in June, but he had players out that to a man he could count on to get the job done.

Anway..I'm rambling and probably contradicting myself.  Back to my original point.  If a manager only effect 2-3 games net a year, then I want to win those games and not lose them.

by Stook on Oct 22, 2007 1:37 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I want to win those 2-3 games too
But it seems like fan reaction to the acts of a manager is entirely disproportionate to his importance.  Fans usually don't heap incessant criticism on a middle reliever whose impact is also 2-3 wins per season.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

3-6 wins
I've seen a few posters throw this number around.  Where does that come from?  

For what it's worth, I will repeat that the "near consensus" among baseball researchers who have actually studied this issue is that a manager's impact on a team is 2-3 wins per season.  I'm not saying that this is the final word on the issue.  But, this isn't a figure that they just pulled out of thin air.

I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 1:39 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

it's because that number is unclear:
Does it mean a 2-3 game difference between the best and worst or does it mean good managing wins three games and bad managing loses three games, a net of six.

Either way, I don't put a ton of stock in the number  for reasons that I've mentioned above (i.e., my belief that a manager is not simply the net effect of his tactical decisions).

by Billex Gordler on Oct 22, 2007 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

3-6 seems big to me
especially the 6 part

managers can lose games, but i'm not sure they can win them

Anyone but Terry

by FireBell on Oct 22, 2007 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, not thin air
They just studied it superficially and came up with a suitably vague answer.
Yoda

by Yoda on Oct 25, 2007 2:08 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Press conference
Notes:

-Thrilled to be here. In it for the long haul. Already "bleeding Royal blue."
-Emphasized he had to make adjustments in managerial style going to Japan. Japanese players do not hit the weight room, they instead work on agility and defense. American players stress home runs. Wants to bring ideas from Japan but only if they fit. Wants input from players on offensive ideas. Wants team that can catch the ball, pitch, and we'll figure out a way to score runs.
-Sees comparisons between Royals and Fighters. Like Nippon Ham, Royals are clearing out veterans and going young. Emphasized acquiring pitching. Believes the core group of offensive players is here. Thinks this will be a family atmosphere. Believe in "Enjoy. Play Hard. That's all" (a quote from his Fighters centerfielder)
-Wanted to come back to America so his kids could have more stability with their education; praised the Japanese schools, but didn't want kids spending half their year in Japan, half in US
-Believes he has been a MLB manager for last five years because Japan league is as good a quality as MLB, so lack of MLB managerial experience should not be a concern; what matters is the foundation of your relationship with players and putting them in the best possible position to perform
-Was a fan of the team in the 80s, says they "expected to win"; excited to work for the Royals; sees the "master plan" (not sure if was talking about Dayton's or God's)
-Still stresses giving the fans in Hokkaido a proper exit, then wants to hit the ground running in Kansas City
-youth and inexperience doesn't bother him, thinks veterans are less likely to accept new ideas; all comes down to building relationships to get them to buy in; he's already noticed that he and Dayton have the same ideas
-has a lot of studying to do, DVDs, statistics!, hopes his Japanese players visit him in Kansas City

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Oct 22, 2007 3:33 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

One little nugget that I didn't like
His managerial philosophy is, "pitch it, catch it, we'll figure out a way to score runs."  Also, he said that players need to be able to swallow their ego to do whatever is necessary to plate runs when you don't have on the team quite what you'd like to have.  To me that sounds like when you don't have a good power hitting team, you need to send baserunners and sacrifice more.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

More from the presser
He was asked what his managerial philosophy is on how you score runs.  He said [this is nearly all direct quotes] "we must be more open minded to diversification to score runs."  LA Angels have diversified to score runs.  He "doesn't care how we do it, but we'll have to be open minded to other ways to score runs until we have the slug in the lineup that in a dream world you'd like to have."
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

the angels have pretty consistently
had a below average offense

people seem to discount pitching for small ball teams

its so strange

by FlintHillsRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

and how exactly he is supposed to score runs when
he does not have any power bat in the line up? So he is just going to sit there, not bunting, not sacrificing and wait for Dayton to hopefully give him sluggers?  

I really don't get your point. I watch Hillman for the past four years in Japan and I can tell you, you are lucky to have him. The guy is so smart and quick in making adjustments with what he has in order to win. To complain about his bunting crazy with Fighers is pure ignorant of the situation he is in.  Fighers is LAST in every single offense category. It is not only no power, no singles, no doubles, no nothing. It is a 10times worse Diamondback team and yet he made it a championship team.  

And with Dayton Moore, I don't know you have to worry about anything.  He would try to find you power bats but there is no guarantee players would go play in KC and no guarantee you have the budget to do so this year, so what does he do?  He went out and found you the best guy who can utilize what you have now to win.

by andrewt on Oct 22, 2007 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Smart baseball
When you sacrifice, it decreases the number of runs you are likely to score in an inning.  If you need/want only one run, that's fine.  But if it is not close and/or late in the game, then sacrificing is hurting the team's chances.  Just because you are being proactive and not "just waiting for a HR" doesn't mean you are actually helping the team's run scoring chances.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Smart baseball
Is using what you have, and not being dogmatically attached to any one theory of scoring runs.  Adaptation is smart baseball.

by 390 on Oct 22, 2007 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If part of "adapting" is...
...manufacturing runs in non-close/late situations, then those adaptations will only serve to rob the team of runs.  It has been proven time and again that sacrificing decreases the amount of runs you're likely to score.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Said he'd study stats
Talks about "diversification of offense" and talked about the Angels. That is a bad sign. Does seem to think that ultimately he wants a slugging team, but until we get sluggers, we'll probably have to find ways to score runs.

So it does sound like we'll bunt until Dayton gets him the bats he needs.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Oct 22, 2007 3:39 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I dunno
I think it was a reasonable position to take...we'll score runs how we can now and work towards power in the future.

This guy is like the Anti-Buddy Bell.

by BlueEyesAustin on Oct 22, 2007 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am a simple man
I live in the Flint Hills, I work in feed. The manager is important, but only one or two times a week.

by FlintHillsRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 3:48 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Well with that statement
You just proved you know more than most fans.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Oct 22, 2007 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hillman
I don't feel like many of the questions that were asked were that easy for him to answer.  How is he going to score runs?  I mean c'mon, I wish he would've been sarcastic and said: "By crossing home plate." (not really but I hope you see my point).  

He really doesn't know much about our team yet and I think he will be able to evaluate it and then go with whatever will work the best.

by I need more Esteban on Oct 22, 2007 3:53 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Why a bad sign that he talked about the Angels?
Unbelievable how dogmatic some folks are about this stuff.  The Angels were 12th in the AL in HRs this year, but 4th in runs scored.  The Royals were 14th and 13th respectively.  It's been pretty much established by this site that this Royals team is not going to hit a lot of home runs in the near future, so the option is either to be creative and aggressive (even if it includes (gasp!) bunting), a la the Angels, or finish in the bottom half in runs scored until we sign A-Rod and Bonds.

Repeat:  The Angels were 4th in the AL in runs scored.  Why again is that a bad model to emulate?

by Billex Gordler on Oct 22, 2007 3:54 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Yes
Couldn't agree more.  Weren't they in the playoffs this year?  I would give my right arm to see our boys in the postseason.

by I need more Esteban on Oct 22, 2007 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fourth this year
But most years they are average to below average in run production.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Oct 22, 2007 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Since 2002...
The Angels have averaged 11th out of 14 AL teams in HR, and 7th out of 14 AL teams in runs scored.  This seems indicative of an efficient offense.

by Billex Gordler on Oct 22, 2007 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They've scored runs without a lot of HR
But, did they maximize their offensive opportunities?  I really don't know how often they sacrifice, hit-and-run and attempt stolen bases.  But if they do that a lot, then I'm pretty sure they have robbed themselves of runs.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Their runs scored follows their OBP
If you look at where they have ranked the last few years in MLB in runs scored, it has tracked quite closely with how they have ranked in OBP.  I think their runs scored are more about that than manufacturing runs.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

agreed
when the post a high team BA they are ok

when they don't, they aren't

the running is mostly just irrelevant noise

Anyone but Terry

by FireBell on Oct 22, 2007 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have no idea...
How the Angels score their runs.  All I know is that RoyalsReview took a shot at Hillman for alluding to the Angels as a team to emulate.  If the Royals aren't going to hit a lot of home runs, it seems like the Angels are the perfect bunch to emulate.

by Billex Gordler on Oct 22, 2007 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, I'm willing to give it a chance
I'm all for stealing bases, so long as its at a high percentage. I'm not totally opposed to bunting so long as its in the right situation.

I just don't want him to be Pena or Bell and bunt just to be bunting. Hillman at least seems to want to do an analysis and study the issue and determine when and with what personnel to sacrifice outs. I like that approach very much.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Oct 22, 2007 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I got onto 810 and asked a question
...about Hillman's statement on "diversifying the offense" to score runs.  Kevin agreed that sacrificing isn't the way to score runs.  He said he'd put the question directly to Hillman when he interviews him shortly.  Should be an interesting answer.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 3:55 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Hey
Thought for sure that was you!

by BlueEyesAustin on Oct 22, 2007 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

haha
wow, I just heard that and was about to ask if that was you.  You sound just like you post.  (not an insult)

by I need more Esteban on Oct 22, 2007 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Did I sound like an asshole? ;)
I tried not to let it out on the radio.  ha ha
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Lets put it this way
Out of the two people on the radio at the time, you sounded less like an asshole.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Oct 22, 2007 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Woohoo!
That's good enough to me.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No not at all
It was just funny that I could tell it was you right off, it also helped that you mentioned the New York part though.

by I need more Esteban on Oct 22, 2007 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I considered a royalsreview.com plug
That would have made it clear it was me.  Either that or being a real asshole to the radio host and doing my best to tear his comments to shreds.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ha!
I thought for a second I had called into 810 and didn't know it! You echoed my thoughts exactly!
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Oct 22, 2007 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

thats great
kevin is the man
Anyone but Terry

by FireBell on Oct 22, 2007 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting
Dayton knew since Opening Day that Buddy might leave due to health problems, so he began identifying candidates back then!

They've been following Hillman since June.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Oct 22, 2007 3:56 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Dayton Moore just said we need to...
...manufacture runs more with the personnel that we currently have on this team.  And Hillman will be willing to do it, but also knows when to do that and when to wait for the big inning.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 4:00 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Gator
I think Gathright is going to really get pushed to learn how to steal and make his speed an asset.

by BlueEyesAustin on Oct 22, 2007 4:04 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I hope they can teach him that
He has the raw speed.  I hope someone can teach him how you actually steal a base...and then hopefully not push him to attempt stolen bases too often.  Selectivity is one of the most important skills for a base stealer.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Manager's importance a-la Dayton
Heard you on 810, too. It's a small world.

Potential trump card against your "manager is minimal" argument was just expressed by Dayton in in the interview with Keitzman: "winners attract winners." I can't quote him exactly, but he said something to the effect of great players wanting to come to KC because the manager is a winner.

I'm not sure if that factor is real or not, but if it is, then the value of the manager has to be huge, way beyond tactical moves that produce a win or loss in a single game. Players and plays win the game, but managers attract the players who make (or can make) the plays.

Exciting time to be a Royals' fan, isn't it? Great blog, too. Thanks!

by RickMckc on Oct 22, 2007 4:14 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

What attracts players?
  1. Money (the best contract in terms of dollars and years)
  2. A chance to win.  And that means a winning team or a team they think will win.  And I don't think that's about the manager.  I think that's about the talent on the team and whether the team has been winning in the recent past.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You forgot
"Schools"

-Signed Mike Hampton

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Oct 22, 2007 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

More than money?
Didn't Paul Byrd go to Cleveland for less money than KC offered?

by RickMckc on Oct 22, 2007 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Byrd
First, I think going to a team with a good chance to win is also important, as I said.  Second, if I remember correctly, Byrd took a better offer from Atlanta.  They offered him more money than KC, so he took the better contract.  When Byrd went to Cleveland in 2006, I wasn't aware that the Royals bid on him at all.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

closeness to your supplier
Success is counted sweetest by those who ne'er succeed. - Emily Dickinson

by buddyball on Oct 23, 2007 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Aggressiveness
I agree.  Selectivity is HUGE.  Consider that Emil Brown went 12/14 in SB this year and you'll agree that raw speed isn't nearly as important as other factors.  

by Billex Gordler on Oct 22, 2007 4:21 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Winners attract winners
but what attracts women?
Anyone but Terry

by FireBell on Oct 22, 2007 4:53 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The Long Ball
If you know what I mean.
Being a fan is irrational, but what is the alternative?

by philofthenorth on Oct 22, 2007 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I thought it was a gritty approach
Success is counted sweetest by those who ne'er succeed. - Emily Dickinson

by buddyball on Oct 23, 2007 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hillman on offensive philosophy
Keitzman asked him how he'd like to score runs.  Hillman said it was entirely predicated on the personnel.  He said he doesn't anticipate sacrificing as much in America as he did in Japan, which could be 3-4 times a game.  He also said he likes putting guys in motion on the basepaths, but you have to make sure you've gotten players comfortable with doing that, which will be a priority for that.

Then he was asked about base running and base stealing.  He said the Royals must be aggressive on the basepaths.  He said the team will will be making some aggressive mistakes, but you can't become a good base stealing team without making some aggressive mistakes.  He said he's not going to give everyone the green light, but you have to get runners moving.

I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 4:56 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Hillman on 810
Trey Hillman on 810:

-Last week was his first visit ever to Kansas City - loved it
-Is passionate about the game of baseball, that's what drove him to Japan. Believes the whole of the team is more important than its individual parts, doesn't seek the limelight. Has to be confident to prove himself to people despite his lack of MLB experience.
-Is an optimist, believes in the best in players
-Japanese players worked 6-8 hours a day in spring training; had agility checks to improve lower half of body as part of conditioning - some guys would work on that from 9-5.
-Doesn't think we have all the pieces right now according to stats, especially offensively, but thinks that teams overachieve sometimes - like the Fighters.
-Credits Dayton Moore and Bob McClure for improvement in pitching, is happy he inherits an improved pitching staff, doesn't know yet how much more they need to improve
-Offensive players need to check their egos and understand they have abilities that haven't been tapped yet because no one has asked them to tap them; players need to be flexible; likes bunting, but doesn't anticipate bunting nearly as much as he did in Japan (3-4 times a game); wants players to get more comfortable stealing bases until we get home run hitters; important to understand strengths and weaknesses of personnel
-Plans on team making aggressive mistakes on bases, but that's the only way they'll learn how to run the bases well; plans to "turn em loose"; says you can tell how badly a team wants it by how they run the bases
-Thinks there are more and more Japanese players that want to come to the US, he'll take em if they want to come here, but that's up to Dayton; is willing to give Dayton advice on player evaluation if he is asked
-Only one pitcher from his old team can come to the States right now, but he wouldn't draw much interest from US team - Hiroki Kuroda could be an interesting pitcher that could come over this year
-Hasn't discussed payroll with Dayton or the Glasses; believes the Glasses are committed to winning
-Was "Sportsman of the Year" in Japan last year; is recognized throughout the island of Hokkaido; most surprising thing to him about Japan is how important people think he is; would rather deflect the credit to the players

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Oct 22, 2007 5:05 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

he sounds excited to be here
which is good

i can't remember Buddy ever giving off that vibe... he just showed up and started making excuses for his previous jobs

by royalsreview on Oct 22, 2007 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow, RR... I hope you had a day to kill
when you wrote this missive.  Great read...even if I think your premise is full of Kansas dust.  Hillman has been on the job less than a week and the Review has already dismissed him as meaningless or at least in only 3-6 games does he become a factor.  

If he would happen to take the Royals to the playoffs next year would he still be meaningless.  I doubt it.

I am all for his aggressive attitude.  I am tired of watching the Royals playing longball with shortball talent.  If it means more steals, sacrificing a man along or even (gasp) a bunt then it is a hell of a lot better than seeing 9 guys up there whiffing away into the Kansas dust and coming up with nothing.

Meaningless manager... I can't wait for the complaints to start then lets see how meaningless he is.  

by grudz69 on Oct 23, 2007 12:24 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Chapter 2 of his dissertation
Success is counted sweetest by those who ne'er succeed. - Emily Dickinson

by buddyball on Oct 23, 2007 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I hope he wasn't expecting an A.
I give it a 95, because it was easy to dance to. That is an old quote from Bandstand.

by grudz69 on Oct 23, 2007 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Band-what?
are you really Dick Clark?
Success is counted sweetest by those who ne'er succeed. - Emily Dickinson

by buddyball on Oct 23, 2007 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Judging by the comments of the Royals players,
they must not be aware that a manager makes very little difference to the success of the team. Anyone who knows anything about baseball can tell you that it's 99% mental. Sure, they're performing physical acts, but these physical acts start out as mental thoughts.
A manager's primary role is to make his team believe they will win. Confidence is the foundation upon which all the skills and performances are built. Once the confidence and team dynamic are established, a teams OPS, VORPS, SMURFS, and whatever other meaningless stats your spreadsheets come up with, will rise along with it. Building this confidence and team dynamic is the role of the manager. Anyone who has been involved in sports knows this.
  I think, for this reason, Trey Hillman seems like he has a good grasp of what it takes to build this team into a winner. I belive he will make a difference of at least 15 wins in 2008.

by kennybud8 on Oct 23, 2007 10:17 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Well
I particularly liked Buck who basically called Bell a loser.

by BlueEyesAustin on Oct 23, 2007 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can't say as I blame him.
Playing Larue as much as Bell did should be punishable with jail time.

by kennybud8 on Oct 23, 2007 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like your style.... that was very well put.
The comments on here forget sometimes that these are human beings playing the children's game and even with all the stats in the world you never know what a the human brain is going to do next.  EX. Zack Grienke....

If Hillman can get this team to play together and to do the simple things to win ballgames then I will consider him a success.  Even if the stats gods don't deem him important.

by grudz69 on Oct 23, 2007 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks,
It's nice to know there is actually someone else out there who realizes that you can't put a good baseball team together by simply crunching numbers.

by kennybud8 on Oct 23, 2007 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think anyone...
...believes that one should put a baseball team together by simply crunching numbers.  But one shouldn't turn one's back on statistics and the existing research.  It is easy to hear about stats, number crunching and research and just say, "Bah humbug!" and dismiss it out of hand.  But, if one does that, I don't think that makes much sense.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Oct 23, 2007 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree
I like stats as much as anyone, but they are an effect. The cause being mental. Stats are very usefull in grading what's going on. What I am saying is that, with the right manager and proper motivation (yes, professional athletes require motivation, they're just kidds at heart you know)a player's stats will improve considerably. Multiplied by nine and you have the difference between last place and World Series.

by kennybud8 on Oct 23, 2007 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree...and disagree
Managers can and do to some extent provide motivation.  But, in my humble opinion, you are overestimating the effect of a manager's motivational skills.  I think it is rare that a manager motivational prowess greatly improves or worsen's a player's performance.  These guys aren't magical. Nor are players so malleable.  I think the vast majority of them are giving at or near 100%.  This isn't little league or a high school team.  This is a bunch of guys who have been playing baseball all of their lives.  They know that the quality of their play keeps them in major league baseball.  They know that the quality of their play determines how much they will get paid.  They are chock full of motivation.  

The role of the manager "lighting a fire" under his players is commonly overrated in my opinion.  It smacks of old school traditional schlock to me.

I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Oct 23, 2007 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Chocked full of motivation...
I must have missed the Royal's motivation in September.  

by grudz69 on Oct 23, 2007 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe motivation wasn't the problem
Was motivation the problem in April?  Did they suddenly find motivation in mid-May?
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Oct 23, 2007 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not really talking about
"motivational prowess" here. I'm talking about the atmosphere and dynamics a manager's personality brings to the team. Sure, all the players want to do well and pad their paychecks. I also have no doubt that they are all giving 100% or close to it almost all the time, but there is a big difference between wanting to win, and knowing you're going to win.

No, these guys aren't magical, and they don't light too many motivational fires, but the right personality can have a magical, intangible effect on a team. I think they call it "chemistry", and it can't be calculated on a spreadsheet. So I'll say it again...to think that a manager can only make a diffrence of 2-3 games is wrong, in my humble opinion.

by kennybud8 on Oct 23, 2007 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure
The tendency is two assign machine-like characteristics to professional athletes, but I am not so sure that they are all that different from me or anybody else. Certainly, the stakes are higher for them -- it is harder for them to take a week off of work without anyone noticing -- but I have to believe that on some level they respond to the same motivations that anyone else does. I know I perform better when I respect my supervisor (or teacher, coach), and I know I perform better when I feel like to do otherwise would be to let down my coworkers/teammates. The manager is responsible for this respect and this culture. While it may have a smaller effect for professional athletes, especially veterans, I won't elevate them that far above me.

The fact that pay is more closely tied to performance in professional baseball than it is in most spheres (other than CEOs) makes people more self-motivated, though, I'll give you that.

by Moose Tacos on Oct 23, 2007 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Forgot to mention that your exapmple of Zack
Greinke is a perfect example of what I am talking about. With the right manager, Zack could become a 20 game & Cy Young winner. With the wrong manager he could go 1-6 and end up back in AAA or on skid row. There's a possible 19 game difference with just one player.

by kennybud8 on Oct 23, 2007 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i was no bell fan
but i actually thought he did a good job with ZG

by royalsreview on Oct 23, 2007 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Buddy or Bobby Mac????
Which one is still with the Royals?

by grudz69 on Oct 23, 2007 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I thought Buddy did a good job
with Zack too. My point was that the next manager might not. I don't think Zack would do well with a Lou Pinnella type, for example. He would possibly freak out again. I know I would.

by kennybud8 on Oct 23, 2007 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

with 15 wins...
we might be a wild card team!

(in the NL)

by royalsreview on Oct 23, 2007 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

With 25 wins, we could get eggrolls or the
tooth fairy.   I would be happy if the team plays like they care and not like they did in September.  One of the best things about Trey Hillman is that he isn't Buddy Bell.

by grudz69 on Oct 23, 2007 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

One overlooked point
One other point worth making here.  The manager is the face and voice of a franchise.  All us fans have to listen to this guy talk for the next three years.  Deal with his personality.   I know this has nothing to do with wins or losses, but I do like having a manager in place that adds to my hobby.

I just thought that should be mentioned.  At the core of it all, it is about enjoying the game.  Wins are not the only thing that keeps us interested.  I think I will like Hillman, and that matters.

by James Quinn on Oct 24, 2007 1:59 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Ditto That.
I got a good feel from reading about Trey Hillman, and watching his interview. I look forward to having him as manager in the coming years.

A few home runs are fun to watch also.

by kennybud8 on Oct 24, 2007 8:38 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Excellent point.
You only have to look across the parking lot to see evidence of this phenomenon.  Chiefs fans seem to hate Herm Edwards despite the fact that he took the team to the playoffs in his first year and has the team in first place again this year.  But he's condescending to and combative with the media, which takes some of the fun out of rooting for him.

It's more fun to root for a guy you like.

by Billex Gordler on Oct 24, 2007 8:40 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Briefly on logical consistency...
Don't want to make a huge point about this, but since we can agree that a manager's tactical decisions have a very small effect on a team's performance, then any hand-wringing about Hillman's alleged penchant for bunting seems out of place.  It's the other stuff that matters, not the bunting or sacrificing or whatever.

I think Rany made a similar point after 2003 over at R and R on the Rs when he was defending Tony Pena.  Something about how he could forgive a manager's poor in-game skills if he had the ability to motivate, however strangely.  I'm not sure how Rany feels about that post now, but the point remains that it's the other factors, the leaders of men factors, that are more important for a manager to have.  

by Billex Gordler on Oct 24, 2007 8:52 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Consistency
Don't want to make a huge point about this, but since we can agree that a manager's tactical decisions have a very small effect on a team's performance, then any hand-wringing about Hillman's alleged penchant for bunting seems out of place.

If a manager is responsible for 2-3 wins per season, then I want those wins.  I think too much smallball robs the team of runs, thus decreasing our chance that the manager will get us those 2-3 wins.  I've certainly never said that we're doomed if Hillman sacrifices too much or runs too much.  But I think it would cost us some games.  Not many.

It's the other stuff that matters, not the bunting or sacrificing or whatever.

I think that is exactly wrong.  It is the bunting, sacrificing and other strategic and tactical decisions which really matter.  The "other stuff" is mostly smoke, mirrors and people blowing intangibles out of proportion.

I think Rany made a similar point after 2003 over at R and R on the Rs when he was defending Tony Pena.  Something about how he could forgive a manager's poor in-game skills if he had the ability to motivate, however strangely.

Pena is a good example of the smoke and mirrors I mentioned above.  His "motivational powers" were a ghost, a mirage.  We thought it was there, but it wasn't.  This is Pena's managerial record:

2002 49-77 .389
2003 83-79 .512
2004 58-104 .358
2005 8-25 .242

Like many others, I hoped in 2003 that he was some kind of supreme motivator who was able to get the very best out of his players, or was maybe even able to get players to play way over their heads.  But I think his complete managerial record shows that not to be the case.  Sometimes players have really good years way out of line with the rest of their career.  Sometimes multiple players do that at the same time.  That is what we saw in 2003.  That was the cause of the Royals success in 2003, not Tony Pena's magical motivational power.  If one credits Pena's motivational prowess, then I would ask why he didn't exercise this power in 2002, but did in 2003 and then didn't in 2004 or 2005?

I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Oct 24, 2007 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Okay.
I can see that you've got your heels dug in on this one, so I'm not going to belabor the point, especially since we pretty much agree on things.  Too much bunting is BAD.  If you're successful on less than 73% or so of your SB attempts, that's BAD.  Giving up outs when not in close and late situations is BAD.  Anaheim Angels are BAD.  (I kid...)

by Billex Gordler on Oct 24, 2007 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yea...
part of what I was trying to work through in my post was that, as much as I might be against it, the bunting thing just isn't too big a deal in the long haul

however, I will wring my hands if GMDM looks at a bad offense and says, " more bunting will fix this"

no, we need players

by royalsreview on Oct 24, 2007 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I Remember An
Extra inning game this year where we had runners at 1st and 2nd, 0 out and Teahen hitting. He sacrificed and it worked; at least one run scored.

I had commented on the game thread that no way did I want Teahen to sacrifice, as I was tired of having runners on 2nd and 3rd with 3 outs. I thought we still had a better chance of scoring multiple runs (I'm pretty sure we were on the road) with the heart of the order, Teahen in particular, swinging away. Was I wrong?

Being a fan is irrational, but what is the alternative?

by philofthenorth on Oct 24, 2007 7:57 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I think
...in that situation that it is wise to play for one run.  Now, there are a lot of variables here and changing some of them could change what is smart to do.  In the above situation, the Royals only needed one run.  Even when you are the away team, batting first, if you are in extra innings, I think the goal should always be to maximize the chance to score a run.  Maybe if it is late in extra innings and all of your good pitchers are used up and you are down to your worst reliever, then maybe not.  But the Royals weren't in that situation.  We had a good bullpen.

Another important variable is who is up with those runners on 1st and 2nd with nobody out.  Is he a good hitter?  How good?  Can he bunt?  How well?  In this case, you had a decent hitter who hadn't been hitting well recently.  Not a great hitter.  Not an RBI machine.  And he was/is a good bunter.

If you move the runners up, you make it easier for one of the next two batters to drive in at least one run.  Also, it takes the double play off the table.

Anyway, I'd like to see a run expectancy chart which shows in various situations the likelihood of scoring at least one run.  But my strong feeling is that you are more likely to score at least one run in an inning with runners on 2nd and 3rd one out, than with runners on first and second, nobody out.

Long story short, I think it was the right decision, and in most such situations (depending on some variables), it would be the right thing to do again.

I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Oct 24, 2007 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Run Expectancy...
1st and 2nd, 0 out: 64% chance of scoring 1 or more.
2nd and 3rd, 1 out: 70% chance of scoring 1 or more.

by Billex Gordler on Oct 24, 2007 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What Are The Odds
Of the sacrifice working? Does that even the playing field or even tilt it in favor of swinging away?
Being a fan is irrational, but what is the alternative?

by philofthenorth on Oct 24, 2007 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That is an important point
I think that is why the bunting abilities of the batter (and his hitting abilities) are an important variable.  In that situation, I think the likelihood that Teahen would put down a successful bunt was greater than him getting a hit.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Oct 25, 2007 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good writing
But I would dispute more than a few things written in the article.  In our new world of Sabermetrics, it is believed that everything in baseball is easily quantified.  It isn't.  There is no theoretical experiment being run where the best manager in baseball uses the same roster as the worst manager in baseball to play the games against the same competition on the same days with the identical same circumstances.  Baseball, as much as any sport and more than most, is about chemistry, balance, finese and adaptability.  To say that you can place a number of wins due to good management is just not proveable.

"Over the course of a full game, the difference between the best and worst batting order is, roughly, a run..." and "...the worst possible manager. He arranges the lineup completely backwards, always bunts at the wrong time, calls for double steals with Billy Butler and John Buck on base...  ....If this manager has a particularly weird and uneven roster -- a big if -- his behavior might cost the team something like 15-20 wins. " This is pulling numbers out of a hat.  These are sabremetric numbers, and sabremetrics calls itself a science, and all science is infallible and... the truth is that sabremetrics is not a science, it is a tool.  You use it as a qualifier (player Joe is PROBABLY better than player Bill) rather than a quantifier (manager Bill will win 4 more games than manager Joe because Bill's team will score an average of 1 run per game more).

How about an example using the "science" of sabermetrics.  Apparently it has been "proven" that a relatively high stolen base rate is necessary to be beneficial. This rate is listed as  67% - higher if the the game is close or if it's in the latter innings.  Of course how close is close and how late is latter is left to our imagination.  Look at this situation.  The only way we can quantify this is if a baserunner gets on and whether THAT baserunner scores or doesn't score that inning, depending on whether they steal or not.  We can't quantify whether the threat of a good base steeler at first or second affects how or what pitches are thrown, whether the pitcher is more stressed and his effectiveness latter in the game is reduced, how a stolen base may affect the game in the middle of a rally and so forth and so forth. If you don't quantify all the situations, then you can't put a number on it.

"Baseball just isn't like other sports in a few simple but very profound ways. First, attitude and desire, beyond a minimum requirement of paying attention and caring..."  Sorry, if someone is throwing a 95 MPH fastball within 2 or 3 feet of my head, I pay more than a minimal amount of attention to it.  Sure there is an element of relaxation necessary.  But there is in all sports.  My son is a mixed martial arts fighter (you know, UFC style).  He talks about going into his first couple of bouts and having this huge adrenalin rush before the bouts which results in using up too much energy too quickly.  He calls it an adrenaline dump.  Now he is much more relaxed.  Pumped? Yes. Manic? No.

"The bottom line is that baseball is a game of failure,..."  No, the game is about the defense and pitching succeeding more than the hitting and offense.  The game is about you being more successful than your opponent in as many facets of the game as you can.

I have been in many work-places, and in nearly all of them leadership comes from the top down.  If we think that attitude, character, desire, and yes, inspiration are derived by money and money alone, I think that is wrong.  Totally wrong.  Yes, pro team sports has this weird combination of competing against your teammates and competing against the other teams.  You have to have leadership to route all this competition in the right direction, and to make it enjoyable.  I also know the difference at work between grinding and flying, and the results that are obtained.

Specifically, about the men involved.  "If Moore's idea of fixing the offense is to bunt more as opposed to signing a guy who can actually, you know, hit, then that is the problem, not the bunts Hillman later calls."  I think that a GM coming from a winning tradition who hires a manager who has just led his team to its' 2nd championship shot is doing the right thing.  Looking at the Ham Fighters power-lacked line-up, bunting doesn't look like such a bad idea.  Adaptability, right?

"In reality, the manager is much more important to the men who have to write 162 game recaps a season than it is to anyone else."
The last point I would make is this.  The manager is responsible for many other things besides what happens on the field during a game.  Nearly all of those things impact the players in a very direct way.  Also, if he can  be a positive influence to the extent of winning 3 to 6 more games by being the field manager, that might be the difference between missing the wild card by a game or winning the world series.  I feel that the Rockies at the start of this year were in the same position as the Royals will be in about 2 years. Now, this might be a special moment to the the people who write about the event, but I can assure you it is much more important to those who take part in it.  Sela.

Sorry about being so long-winded.  I just don't believe people make very little difference.  I think anyone can make all the difference in the world.  Especially leadership.

Yoda

by Yoda on Oct 25, 2007 1:49 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

AMEN !
And may the force be with you Yoda

by kennybud8 on Oct 25, 2007 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like the part about pitching and defense
succeeding over hitting...

i agree that a manager can inspire people, but if you think about it logically, one manager's personality isn't going to inspire everyone even if they all wanted or needed it

if Jimmy Gobble gets inspired by Hillman and becomes 10% better, its still not going to have much effect

by royalsreview on Oct 25, 2007 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pitching, defense and hitting
One of the worst baseball cliches is that "pitching wins" or "pitching and defense wins" or anything like that.  Anything that says pitching and/or defense is more important than hitting is bunk and hoakum.  In reality, you have to score runs and you have to limit the other team's runs.  Winning is all maximizing Runs Scored and minimizing Runs Allowed.  Neither is more important than the other.  Maximizing the difference between RS and RA is what really wins, no matter how you do it.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Oct 25, 2007 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Really?
Baseball, as much as any sport and more than most, is about chemistry?  I would argue the exact opposite, and that baseball is by the far the most individualistic and least teammate-interactive of team sports.

Chemistry is much, much more important in sports in which players on the same team more regularly interact with each other: basketball, football, soccer, hockey, and so on.  You can be an absolutely lousy teammate, caring only about individual numbers and achievements, and still add a tremendous amount of value to your team.  Not so (or at least much more infrequently so) in other team sports.

Royals, NBA, Golden Hurricane, Hawkeyes, Chiefs, and KU basketball, in that order.

by Rowyal on Oct 25, 2007 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good post
I agree entirely.  It is the least team-oriented of any team sport.  IMO, chemistry has value, but less so in baseball than in any other sport.  And while I think any manager will particularly motivate some players, he will very rarely motivate all or most of them significantly more than other managers.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Oct 25, 2007 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, we'll agree to disagree
If these guys aren't interacting on the bench and in the clubhouse, what are they doing?  The season is huge, and for more than 1/2 of it are they with each other on the road or spring training.  Everyone seems to think that these guys are performing in some kind of isolation tank on and off the field.
Yoda

by Yoda on Oct 25, 2007 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

whoops
should read ..."more than 1/2 of it they are" not "are they".  Otherwise I don't sound 1/2 as authoritative as I pretend to be.
Yoda

by Yoda on Oct 25, 2007 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right,
but in other team sports, they interact on the bench and in the clubhouse just as much.  The difference is that they also have to work together much more frequently and effectively on the field than do baseball players.  Chemistry isn't a non-factor, it's just less of an issue than in other team sports.   They aren't completely isolated, but they're certainly isolated more often than in other sports.  Basketball players shoot free throws and soccer and hockey players take penalty kicks/shots, but baseball players are isolated to that degree every time they come to the plate.
Royals, NBA, Golden Hurricane, Hawkeyes, Chiefs, and KU basketball, in that order.

by Rowyal on Oct 25, 2007 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

A mild defense of the stat-heads
Just one small nit pick.  No one who studies baseball analytically, (SABR-folk) think "everything in baseball is easily quantifiable."  No one recognizes how difficult it is to quantify many aspects of the game more than those who spend countless hours trying to accomplish this task.  

I think most in the SABR community recognize that the best they can do in terms of evaluating managers affect on win totals is something pretty loose, like, "not all that much, probably just a few games."  This doesn't represent a problem with the analytical study of baseball; it is just recognition of its inherent limitations.  Even if the only thing produced by a lot of research is a pretty fuzzy answer, it still is of some value.

by James Quinn on Oct 25, 2007 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly
I hate it when people dismiss sabermetrics, statistical analysis and research by saying "they think they can reduce the whole game to numbers".  No one can do that.  It is just another way to learn about and understand the game.  It is a way of getting under the surface, challenging a variety of ideas and gaining more information.  That is not the beginning or ending of baseball knowledge.  But I think it is a very important piece.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Oct 25, 2007 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

To respond to both of you
I love stats.  I revel in stats, I bath in stats.  But I don't try to make stats do things stats aren't designed to do.  What I dismiss is arbitrary formulae and seemingly arbitrary numbers.  How can you come up with a number for coache's wins unless you arbitrarily decide what is important to the team play as the coach affects it, cause there ain't no way to measure it scientifically.  Another thing I don't like is this bibliographical error.  A, B, and C repeat what D and E heard from F, all as gospel.  Before you know, it's recognized as truth.  It seems that no one does their homework.  Excuse me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that very few people in the SABR "community" actually plug the numbers into something like VORP to see how reliable it is.  When you start getting +/-'s over 15% on your base assumptions, the rest of it is statistical nonsense.  go/ao, ld%, babip, all wonderful (and simple) stats.  But qualifiers, not  quantification.
Yoda

by Yoda on Oct 25, 2007 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yoda
What I dismiss is arbitrary formulae and seemingly arbitrary numbers.  How can you come up with a number for coache's wins unless you arbitrarily decide what is important to the team play as the coach affects it, cause there ain't no way to measure it scientifically.

There is no question that the "coaches are responsible for 2-3 wins over the course of a season" is estimation, not mathematical proof.  I don't think anyone (in the SABR community or outside of it) thinks all variables have been accounted for, measured and calculated.  There is much there which can't be measured.  It is just an estimation, based on a variety of pieces of information and including a number of assumptions.  Personally, I buy that number, partially because I share with them a number of beliefs and assumptions.  I do agree that the number is far from "proven".  It is just an estimate.

Another thing I don't like is this bibliographical error.  A, B, and C repeat what D and E heard from F, all as gospel.  Before you know, it's recognized as truth.  It seems that no one does their homework.

Ok, you're way off base here.  Studies are done, analyzed, repeated by others, critiqued, repeated again, critiqued and tweaked by others and repeated again.  From this process some truths emerge and are constantly added to and tweaked yet again.  When those widely recognized truths emerge, they are indeed repeated as fact(as they should be).  The same is true in hard sciences, social sciences and in any academic field.

Excuse me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that very few people in the SABR "community" actually plug the numbers into something like VORP to see how reliable it is.

You are wrong.  As these more complicated metrics have developed over they last 15-20 years, they are constantly tested, analyzed and critiqued.  Others develop different metrics which attempt to cure the flaws in prior metrics and improve upon them.  VORP itself grew out of and was an improvement on prior metrics.

For instance, no one is saying "VORP is it.  If you want to know how good a player is, all you need to know is VORP.  That is the stat, now and forever."  In the eyes of some, VORP as already been superceded by WARP.  In five years, it is quite possible that VORP and WARP will have fallen by the wayside in favor of better, perhaps very different metrics.

Yoda, I don't know if you are a subscriber to and frequent reader of sites like baseballprospectus.com or if you read SABR publications, but I would suggest you do.  I think that would inform your opinions.  It appears you are just assuming a lot about SABR and serious baseball research/analysis without actually be directly familiar with it.

I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Oct 26, 2007 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have never checked out
baseballprospectus.com, but I think I will. It sounds fascinating. If they have a numerical value for a player's attitude and personality that they could plug into VORP, I think they would really be onto something. Like Teahen would be 10, and Brown would be -10. Certainly their personalities should affect their value to the team.

by kennybud8 on Oct 26, 2007 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

BP is great, but much of the site
is only open to subscribers, and the annual fee is really pretty high.  Something like $50.

Baseball Think Factory, Beyond the Boxscore and Hardball Times are all decent alternatives.  They are free, but the material on these sites is more random in nature.

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main

There are some team specific blogs.  I do not know of one that covers the Royals, but JinAZ on the Reds is an example of a great team site in my opinion.
http://jinaz-reds.blogspot.com/

I read SABR droppings from time to time and they have helped me appreciate the hobby on just one additional level.  Yoda is right that, as in any field, there is a lot of garbage out there.  You have to read critically.

Part of what pointed me towards SABR material was trying to understand how MLB teams evaluate minor league and amateur talent.  One of the most valuable tools I've gained from all my analytical reading is the concept of Replacement Player level.  That just seems to be core to understanding how to best use limited resources while building an organization.  Dewen's plus/minus fielding system is an amazing accomplishment.  It took him and an assistant a full year to compile the information but in the end he produced what I think is the best static to measure individual fielders and how much their glove helps or hurts a team over a full season.  When he published The Fielding Bible my eyes were opened.

by James Quinn on Oct 26, 2007 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, I am assuming a great deal, but
No one seems to to want to prove me wrong.

Point 1 ARBITRARY
"it is just an estimation, based on a variety of pieces of information and including a number of assumptions."  And what assumptions would those be?  My estimate/guess is as good as yours.  I link the 2-3 wins idea with sabremetrics thinking in this point because it fits the philosophy - easily quantifiable events (bunt or no bunt in a sacrifice situation) are easy to count, therefore they are the only things to count.

Point 3 TESTED
 it seems to me that very few people in the SABR "community" actually plug the numbers into something like VORP to see how reliable it is."  Have you personally plugged in the numbers?   Am I wrong in assuming you are a member of SABR?  Can you quote specific cases that are independent?  I'm  going in with a (reasonably but skeptical) mindset here. What is the formula for VORP?  BP used to have it on their website, but I can't seem to find it anymore.  

...no one is saying "VORP is it...  ... In the eyes of some, VORP as already been superceded by WARP...  
All I know about WARP is what I've read on the net which was: WARP combines VORP and FRAA (which measures the number of runs a player contributes above an average player on defense).  As far as I know FRAA formula is not available  Is that true?  And let's not even get into defensive metrics.        

 What independent studies are done on it?  As it already may have superceded VORP, there should be a few, right?

Now, if you can't tell me what the formula for WARP is and if you can't tell me that there is independent studies done of it, and by who, and you ARE telling me that WARP is useful, I would say that you are contributing to my:
Point 3 BIBLIOGRAPHICAL ERROR  
"A, B, and C repeat what D and E heard from F, all as gospel".

Now, you say  "You are wrong.  As these more complicated metrics have developed over they last 15-20 years, they are constantly tested, analyzed and critiqued".  Now, I have to respond by saying Prove Me Wrong.  The sabremetric community is promoting these "scientific" concepts, the burden of proof is on them.  By the way, doesn't metrics mean standard of measurement, as opposed to hypothetical formulae derived from measurement?

Now tell me this.  
Assigned values , Bill James WIN shares
Catcher        38 points 19%
First Base     12 points 6%
Second Base    32 points 16%
Third Base     24 points 12%
Shortstop      36 points 18%
Outfield       58 points 29%
Is this true?  Are the % arbitrarily assigned due to a number of "assumptions"?

Yoda

by Yoda on Oct 29, 2007 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

BP.com
Really, the $50 subscription fee is the best value going on the web.  The site is constantly entertaining and interesting.  Moreover, if you only buy one book next year, make it the 2008 Baseball Prospectus.  If you like baseball at all, you have to own this book.  It's smart, funny and challenging.

That said, even BP's founder has recognized just how incremental future analytical gains are likely to be.  The most important lesson has been learned:  Outs are the scarce commodity in baseball, and the best offensive players do the best job at avoiding them.  

by Billex Gordler on Oct 26, 2007 2:04 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Good points
BP.com is a great value and the BP annuals are a must read for any serious baseball fan, IMO.

Huckaby's article was interesting, but I can't quite agree with him that "analysis is dead".  The early revolution in baseball analysis is certainly transitioning into a second phase but I think he was unnecessarily fatalistic.  It reminded me of Fukuyama's "End of History".  I don't think this is an end point; it is more of a comma.

I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Oct 26, 2007 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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