Unpacking the Trey Hillman Hire
Its now been a few days since the Royals announced that Trey Hillman will manage the team in 2008, in what was an unexpectedly quick managerial search process, at least publicly. Less than a day after Hillman was mentioned as a serious candidate, the Royals went ahead and made it official, a full four days before the bells, whistles, and middle aged man in a suit with a baseball jersey draped over him coronation cum press conference. In the days since, we've had a seal of approval column from JoePo (not surprising) and lots of nice quotes from both unnamed insiders and blogosphere netizens thrown the Royals' way. Here at Royals Review, the Hillman-is-Hired post swelled to 100+ comments, the vast majority of which were ranging from positive to giddy. Buddy Bell burned through about three times as much goodwill as he had actually earned during his September to forget, so its likely that a re-hiring of Tony Muser would have been greeted with applause. Still, there can be no denying that the incredibly small, not really like us in anyway, group of people who get to be "baseball people" in this country all like Trey Hillman, just like they all like Dayton Moore. For whatever thats worth, that is the reality.
Honestly though, if you want to reach any conclusion from this hiring, it should be an incredibly muted one, one fully aware of just how limited in importance a baseball manager really is. In fact, this is just what I would suggest we all take away from this brief news cycle; namely, this just isn't that big a deal. In reality, the manager is much more important to the men who have to write 162 game recaps a season than it is to anyone else.
Baseball just isn't like other sports in a few simple but very profound ways. First, attitude and desire, beyond a minimum requirement of paying attention and caring, just aren't as important in baseball as they are in other sports. A linebacker may benefit from playing with an animalistic rage , but that isn't going to help you hit a curveball. In fact, its going to hurt you. Thus, baseball has developed a whole counter-mythos of how a good manager can keep a team "relaxed", which is mostly just another brand of hokum. Still, you can read a mid-June recap story and pretty regularly see a pregame screamfest or fishing trip or a nod to something less printable credited with making all the difference. Second, for all the obsession with small-ball, putting runners in motion, etc. there still aren't actually "plays" in baseball to anything like the extent there are in football or basketball. Not in terms of quantity, not in terms of precision, and not in terms of importance. Even a blessed decision to bunt is only relevant because over 200 earlier pitcher/hitter battles all went in a certain direction. Thirdly, over the course of both a game, and a season, everybody has to play. Thats the beauty of the batting order. Its obvious, but I don't think we give it enough credit. A basketball coach can have LeBron take every big shot (hell, every small shot too) but you can't do this in baseball. Imagine a basketball game in which the players had to shoot in a predetermined order throughout the game: it be a wildly different sport. Over the course of a full game, the difference between the best and worst batting order is, roughly, a run. Again, thats at the worst extreme. What matters is who is in the batting order at all, not the particular sequence.
Yes, to an extent, a manager can influence the handling of the pitching staff more strongly, but not as much as you might think. The days of guys throwing 135 pitches for no reason are over, and, at the same time, the days of a non-closer-centric bullpen aren't fully here yet. Moreover, our game, once again, isn't the NFL, no matter how much Selig wants us to treat it as such. Over 162 games, a thin roster is going to become apparent, and, at some point, Scruffy McScrub is going to take the mound with a game on the line, but baring multiple injuries, Matt Cassell is never going to lead the Patriots down the field with the game on the line.

Even a seventeenth-century English poet with a drinking problem and a penchant for biting and vindictive satire couldn't do much damage as a manager.
Just to extend the point, imagine for a moment the worst possible manager. He arranges the lineup completely backwards, always bunts at the wrong time, calls for double steals with Billy Butler and John Buck on base, pulls the starter at the wrong time for 162 consecutive games and manages the bullpen with the use of a Magic 8 Ball toy and an astrolabe. If this manager has a particularly weird and uneven roster -- a big if -- his behavior might cost the team something like 15-20 wins. Again, this is with, say, a renaissance poet brought to life as the manager. Maybe 20 wins, if he takes the '03 Giants and bats Bonds 9th, etc. etc.
Well, as we might say, Andrew Marvell, isn't walking through that door. So among guys that could end up with the job, what are we really talking about here? Over the course of 162 games, I'd suggest somewhere between 3-6 games, and thats at the extreme. For most managers, its probably much smaller. Remember, who are these guys all managing against? Guys exactly like them, who are all managing the same way.
Lets look at a situation that I think is fairly realistic as an example: the game is tied in the bottom of the 7th, and Ross Gload explodes for a single to lead off the inning. Hillman then lifts Gload for a pinch-runner, say, a Joe McEwing type, who will play the last two innings at first. Hillman then orders that Alex Gordon, who's hitting .280/.355/.511 in his second seasons, to drop a bunt down, because he believes that Emil Brown, who stands on-deck, is a good "RBI-man".
This is, I think, a series of bad decisions, all down the line. The odds are pretty good the McEwing type is going to bat again and taking the bat out of Gordon's hands to ask Emil Brown to rope a single -- a single that also can't be a rocket-shot to left field -- both hurts the chance of a big inning, and isn't a great bet to begin with.
Nevertheless, Gordon bunts, while both team's TV guys praise the move and talk about Hillman's Japanese experiences and style.
The fact of the matter is, while it is a bad call, it also could still "work". Bunts lead to errors with a small but real increased frequency, and, who knows, Emil might rope a single, as might John Buck behind him.
The bottom line is that baseball is a game of failure, and the odds were against Gordon succeeding anyway. If Mike Brown draws a play that takes the ball out of LeBron's hand's and puts it in, say, Drew Gooden's, thats a much larger discrepancy, especially factoring foul-call potential. Furthermore, even though this is basically the nightmare scenario of small-ball use ,even if Hillman wanted to, he's only gonna get one or two chances all year to do this.
As long as the manager doesn't get anyone injured, doesn't egregiously bury a young player for no reason and correctly fills out the lineup card, its all good. (The last manager we had was iffy on all three.)
Sadly, the coverage of sports in this century has become moralistic and personality-driven, which has made coaches, in all sports, dis-proportionally obsessed upon. I'm not old enough to fully state if it was always this way, but my sense is it was not. Essentially, every postgame contest now gets squeezed into a "this guy choked/this guy is clutch" narrative, when 90% of the time nothing remarkable happened. Quite often, "this coach can't win the big game" or "this coach pulled the pants down on the other coach" is also a part of the equation. There are many reasons why this kind of analysis might be appealing -- the desire to reduce a football game played by scores of mostly African-American men to a battle of wits between two middle-aged white guys seems to be commonplace -- but more often than not its just not correct.
With Trey Hillman -- yes, I should say something about him -- there will be a strong desire to revert to this narrative. His supposed strengths are an emphasis on the morally-superior "fundamentals" and his strong character, which includes his religious beliefs. The players themselves are not immune to this way of thinking. Even a robotic, atheistic manager would get his share of praise if the team played better. As I've tried to show before on this site, sometimes on back to back days the story can completely change. One day the manager keeps 'em loose, the next he won't let 'em back down, and on and on...
So with regards to Trey Hillman, if you seek a RR verdict, here it is: as with the Bell firing/mystery, what is actually most important is what we can learn about Dayton Moore from all this. While it may sound backwards, the desire to play smallball is actually scarier than any attempt to play it. If Moore's idea of fixing the offense is to bunt more as opposed to signing a guy who can actually, you know, hit, then that is the problem, not the bunts Hillman later calls. If Dayton Moore looks at Jorge de la Rosa and thinks the problem is "fundamentals" and hustle, and not an inability to know where the ball is going, then that is the problem.
I don't fully discount the "leader of men" aspect, although I do think it is both greatly overblown and irrelevant most of the time. If the Royals hired me, they would quickly have a problem in the clubhouse because I wouldn't get any respect, guys wouldn't listen, probably wouldn't respect curfew, wouldn't take extra BP, etc. But, just like in the Andrew Marvell is now the manager scenario, the Royals aren't going to hire me. Ninety-five percent of the guys who get hired are from central casting, and get respected as long as they themselevs don't act like buffons. Trey Hillman, no doubt, is in that category.

In baseball terms, Trey Hillman is merely a figment of Dayton's imagination.
A professional baseball team is not the same as a group of waiters, office clerks or teachers. On the whole, these guys are already incredibly driven -- there is no real straight from high school phenomena in baseball -- and fixated on success. Moreover, and this is a key distinction, in their job, unlike most of ours, performance is rewarded mightily. While its easy and fun to bemoan the salary structure, the fact that a 10% improvement in performance can bring a 50% improvement in pay probably, on the whole, produces an ever increasing talent level. Its something of an insult to think that these guys really need a manager to inspire them beyond a certain point.
Personally, and I do mean that literally and in reference to what Hillman's personality might be, I like the fact that he paid his dues. He's managed in the minor leagues and he's managed very far from home. I admire that, and it makes him someone I want to root for. Buddy Bell was a vaguely-liked good ole boy insider who had already received numerous chances before the Royals mysteriously hired him. This is not the case here.
I also like the fact that he has been willing to adapt and change his ways, even if I still believe that under no circumstances is setting a record for sacrifices a good play. You aren't winning because of that as it is, you're winning because of your pitching staff.
Hillman has had to work for this and he's shown an open mind, which is more than we can say for the last guy. For that, we should all be happy.
Still, this is the sportswriter's holiday, not mine, and it is their task to start getting the story templates ready for a long season. Beyond the dithering over fundamentals and small ball we're sure to see, there's the fact that Hillman's a fresh voice, and he's young, so there can be good fodder there. A historically minded piece might be a return to Whiteyball, although this will require DeJesus and Gator actually successfully stealing bases. Heck, there might even be the "Buddy laid the foundation, now its paying off" angle, which we're seeing with Cowboys coverage right now. Most interestingly, there is the sensitive matter of Hillman's religion. We don't yet know how often he'll mention it, and generally speaking the press corps usually handles these things rather gently, only busting out a direct reference or story about it rarely.
In sum, its a press conference and a happy day for Trey Hillman. Its also possibly another set of clues into just what team Dayton Moore wants to build. Its possible that looking at three or four transactions next month will be both more worthwhile, and more relevant.
And don't be afraid to call me out next May, when I'm already jaded and posting that Hillman cost us the game.
0 recs |
135 comments
Comments
wow
i'm in the belief that a bad manager can hurt your team, but a good manager can't really help too much. i'm just looking for hillman to establish a plan for our hitters (plate discipline) and eliminate stupid decisions (pinch hitting Pena with Huber on the bench).
by doublestix on Oct 22, 2007 2:30 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
yea...
by royalsreview on Oct 22, 2007 3:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would be shocked
"Well, as we might say, Andrew Marvell, isn't walking through that door."
Brilliant.
by RoyalsRetro on Oct 22, 2007 10:04 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Great diary, Will
by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 11:08 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Hillman knows "how" to win
In one sense it means that the person knows what he has to do to put his players in the most advantageous position, and knows how then to employ those players once they are in that position. He knows the mechanics of winning baseball. He understands leverage and matchups and psychology(not a dirty word...). The other sense is simply that the person has won before and therefore knows what it's like to win. Based on what I have read about Hillman and what I have gleaned from his team's records and statistics, he seems like the former.
There's been quite a bit of consternation about the frequency of sacrifices that Hillman's Ham Fighters employed this season. But even the most dogmatic SABR-rattler knows that one-run strategies are advantageous in close-and-late situations, which are likely to be common in well-pitched games. He had a great pitching staff and a bad offense this year, so the fact that Hillman traded an out for higher probability of a run in situations where that's the right tactical decision should be seen as a positive rather than a negative or cause for wariness. The logical leap from "This guy called for a lot of sacrifices" to "Get ready to watch Alex Gordon bunt in the 8th" is spurious at best.
As for the "it doesn't matter" argument, I find it irresponsible. The various parts of a team are either adding wins or adding losses. The best season in MLB history added "only" 16 wins over replacement. If a good-great manager can add 3-6 wins over the course of a season, he's the equivalent of a good player. No, that won't turn a 70-win team into a 90-win team, but it can be the difference between an 85-win team and a WS trophy.
More broadly, the above post was incredibly depressing because of its blatant nihilism. Either these choices matter concretely or they don't. If the Royals manager matters only as a symbol of the franchise's direction under a new GM, then so do 80% of the personnel decisions. I don't buy it. Every move is important in and of itself, not because of some obscure symbolism, but because of what it means to the team on the field.
Trey Hillman knows "how" to win baseball games; Buddy Bell, by all appearances, does not. The Royals will be a better team next year with Trey Hillman filling out the lineup card.
by Billex Gordler on Oct 22, 2007 11:14 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't say its nihilism per se...
- I agree that a manager can lose games for you, but the problem is knowing which games they were. Would pitcher X have not given up that 3-run HR in the 7th? Maybe, but we'll never actually know. There is no baseline replacement level manager performance to compare these guys to.
- I probably didn't express it well, but part of what is at issue here is that all these guys manage the same way. Buddy might have cost the team 5 games last season, but Eric Wedge cost the team 4, etc. etc. So ultimately, its all a wash.
by royalsreview on Oct 22, 2007 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"It's all a wash"
The 3-6 game number is a result of the SABR community's desire to reduce a manager to the sum of his tactical decisions. What no one can determine, though, is whether this is a relevant approach to the problem. All that that research tells us is that a manager has at least zero effect on a team's performance. Yawn. It's when I look at results like these that I think that Gary Huckabay is right--Analysis is dead.
by Billex Gordler on Oct 22, 2007 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nihilism or reality
by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
3-6 games
your tactics are only going to be relevant if you have a roster stacked with talented guys that you are utilizing
not sure that applies to us
by FireBell on Oct 22, 2007 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Probably"
I'm not arguing that the Manager is the most important man in an organization. What I'm arguing is that every decision that an organization makes has a cumulative net effect and that analysis is limited to measuring that net effect with imperfect tools. I think that the middle reliever comparison is particularly bad because a manager's effect on an organization is yielded over the period of years, whereas a middle reliever is only as good as his current year.
Some teams are good enough or bad enough that the manager doesn't matter much. But for marginal teams, marginal differences matter disproportionately.
by Billex Gordler on Oct 22, 2007 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Long-term effects
by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree with you
If anything, I'm probably overestimating the effect that a great organization (especially the GM and manager) can have on a player. I've argued before here that sports organizations are highly inefficient creatures and that players' careers are mutable things. A player's career is not set in stone; any given outcome is not inevitable. Great organizations turn flawed players into good players and great players into legends.
Simply because we can measure that a good middle reliever wins 2-3 games doesn't tell us a thing about how much of that success is due to the tutelage of his organization and how much is due to raw talent. An organization can't turn a 2-win player into a 10-win player, but it doesn't seem impossible that it can turn a 2-win player into a 5-win player.
by Billex Gordler on Oct 22, 2007 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
An organization's effect on a player
by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just out of curiousity
by RoyalsRetro on Oct 22, 2007 12:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I never got around to thinking about it
I think Jim Tracy did a good job in LA a few years ago. They always had good bullpens and he used alot of platoons to try to squeeze offense out of that roster.
I also have always liked Bobby Valentine, who sometimes says interesting things. But, I've read that he was actually pretty brutal back in his Texas days...
Leo Mazzone might have been a fun choice, but I think the Baltimore experience destroyed him.
Honestly, I was pretty anti-retread, but, the only guys I really know about are retreads, so... yea.
Really though, I'm not anti-Hillman or anything, not unless today's presser is 90 minutes on "playing the game the right way"...
by royalsreview on Oct 22, 2007 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Playing the game the right way"
by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
HERE"S MY QUESTION
Just playing off the good-cop/bad-cop thing is probably the most important thing. When Buddy was hired he seemed like he was gonna kinda be a hardass, and made some comments about the lockerroom being lazy, etc. etc.
But by the end, he seemed a softie...
Anyone have thoughts??
by FireBell on Oct 22, 2007 1:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
My impression
However, he did rub some players the wrong way when he played younger better players instead of a veteran. I actually like that he did that.
by RoyalsRetro on Oct 22, 2007 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting read
I have a few comments:
3-6 wins, if accurate, is potentially VERY significant. Division titles and wild card berths are frequently decided by less.
I think that every decision GMDM makes is potentially important - even those that seemingly impact the bottom line just a little. Add up a whole bunch of little "wins" in his decision making, and it might add up to a "lot" one day, instead of just a little.
Manager performance has to be, by definition, a zero-sum game, right? I mean, the whole idea is for your manager to be better than everybody else's manager, correct? Estimating this is, of course, something that sabermetrics may or may not be good at doing at this time.
Lastly, Will implies that short of three major crimes, any manager employed will, more or less, be very similar to any other manager. I would feel remiss if I didn't echo Will's sentiment regarding our last manager. While I don't think we can say for sure he caused any injuries, my opinion on the other two major crimes is STRONGLY that he violated those. Not playing young guys in September, along with not playing Butler at 1B, all fall under the category of burying a young player egregiously to me. I don't want to type all day, so let's just say I'm down with the notion that he didn't correctly fill out the lineup card either.
by loyal2s dad on Oct 22, 2007 1:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
yes, but...
by FireBell on Oct 22, 2007 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've said this before
As fans, we are always going to question the manager. Braves fans question Bobby Cox. I'm not sure if any of them can name games and situations as quickly as we can, however. For instance..Bringing in Jason Standridge in extras in Baltimore when we had other pitchers rested and available. Batting Costa 4th. The whole pinch running with Huber while pinch hitting with Pena debacle. Who knows what the outcome of those games might have been, but I don't think we would be sitting here begging for Standridge to pitch or Pena to hit or would have even thought about batting Costa 4th..ever.
Honestly..I think what makes it harder for us fans is that the local media never held Bell accountable for those decisions, so we are left just assuming that Bell's an idiot. Maybe he had legit reasons..I don't know. Maybe I'm just tired of losing. Obviously is easy not to second guess a manager when he has better talent available. Bell did manage the bullpen better starting in June, but he had players out that to a man he could count on to get the job done.
Anway..I'm rambling and probably contradicting myself. Back to my original point. If a manager only effect 2-3 games net a year, then I want to win those games and not lose them.
by Stook on Oct 22, 2007 1:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I want to win those 2-3 games too
by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
3-6 wins
For what it's worth, I will repeat that the "near consensus" among baseball researchers who have actually studied this issue is that a manager's impact on a team is 2-3 wins per season. I'm not saying that this is the final word on the issue. But, this isn't a figure that they just pulled out of thin air.
by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 1:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
it's because that number is unclear:
Either way, I don't put a ton of stock in the number for reasons that I've mentioned above (i.e., my belief that a manager is not simply the net effect of his tactical decisions).
by Billex Gordler on Oct 22, 2007 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
3-6 seems big to me
managers can lose games, but i'm not sure they can win them
by FireBell on Oct 22, 2007 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, not thin air
by Yoda on Oct 25, 2007 2:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Press conference
-Thrilled to be here. In it for the long haul. Already "bleeding Royal blue."
-Emphasized he had to make adjustments in managerial style going to Japan. Japanese players do not hit the weight room, they instead work on agility and defense. American players stress home runs. Wants to bring ideas from Japan but only if they fit. Wants input from players on offensive ideas. Wants team that can catch the ball, pitch, and we'll figure out a way to score runs.
-Sees comparisons between Royals and Fighters. Like Nippon Ham, Royals are clearing out veterans and going young. Emphasized acquiring pitching. Believes the core group of offensive players is here. Thinks this will be a family atmosphere. Believe in "Enjoy. Play Hard. That's all" (a quote from his Fighters centerfielder)
-Wanted to come back to America so his kids could have more stability with their education; praised the Japanese schools, but didn't want kids spending half their year in Japan, half in US
-Believes he has been a MLB manager for last five years because Japan league is as good a quality as MLB, so lack of MLB managerial experience should not be a concern; what matters is the foundation of your relationship with players and putting them in the best possible position to perform
-Was a fan of the team in the 80s, says they "expected to win"; excited to work for the Royals; sees the "master plan" (not sure if was talking about Dayton's or God's)
-Still stresses giving the fans in Hokkaido a proper exit, then wants to hit the ground running in Kansas City
-youth and inexperience doesn't bother him, thinks veterans are less likely to accept new ideas; all comes down to building relationships to get them to buy in; he's already noticed that he and Dayton have the same ideas
-has a lot of studying to do, DVDs, statistics!, hopes his Japanese players visit him in Kansas City
by RoyalsRetro on Oct 22, 2007 3:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
One little nugget that I didn't like
by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
More from the presser
by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the angels have pretty consistently
people seem to discount pitching for small ball teams
its so strange
by FlintHillsRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and how exactly he is supposed to score runs when
I really don't get your point. I watch Hillman for the past four years in Japan and I can tell you, you are lucky to have him. The guy is so smart and quick in making adjustments with what he has in order to win. To complain about his bunting crazy with Fighers is pure ignorant of the situation he is in. Fighers is LAST in every single offense category. It is not only no power, no singles, no doubles, no nothing. It is a 10times worse Diamondback team and yet he made it a championship team.
And with Dayton Moore, I don't know you have to worry about anything. He would try to find you power bats but there is no guarantee players would go play in KC and no guarantee you have the budget to do so this year, so what does he do? He went out and found you the best guy who can utilize what you have now to win.
by andrewt on Oct 22, 2007 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Smart baseball
by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Smart baseball
by 390 on Oct 22, 2007 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If part of "adapting" is...
by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Said he'd study stats
So it does sound like we'll bunt until Dayton gets him the bats he needs.
by RoyalsRetro on Oct 22, 2007 3:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I dunno
This guy is like the Anti-Buddy Bell.
by BlueEyesAustin on Oct 22, 2007 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am a simple man
by FlintHillsRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 3:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Well with that statement
by RoyalsRetro on Oct 22, 2007 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hillman
He really doesn't know much about our team yet and I think he will be able to evaluate it and then go with whatever will work the best.
by I need more Esteban on Oct 22, 2007 3:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Why a bad sign that he talked about the Angels?
Repeat: The Angels were 4th in the AL in runs scored. Why again is that a bad model to emulate?
by Billex Gordler on Oct 22, 2007 3:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yes
by I need more Esteban on Oct 22, 2007 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fourth this year
by RoyalsRetro on Oct 22, 2007 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Since 2002...
by Billex Gordler on Oct 22, 2007 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They've scored runs without a lot of HR
by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Their runs scored follows their OBP
by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
when they don't, they aren't
the running is mostly just irrelevant noise
by FireBell on Oct 22, 2007 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have no idea...
by Billex Gordler on Oct 22, 2007 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I'm willing to give it a chance
I just don't want him to be Pena or Bell and bunt just to be bunting. Hillman at least seems to want to do an analysis and study the issue and determine when and with what personnel to sacrifice outs. I like that approach very much.
by RoyalsRetro on Oct 22, 2007 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I got onto 810 and asked a question
by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 3:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Hey
by BlueEyesAustin on Oct 22, 2007 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
haha
by I need more Esteban on Oct 22, 2007 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did I sound like an asshole? ;)
by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lets put it this way
by RoyalsRetro on Oct 22, 2007 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hahaha
by I need more Esteban on Oct 22, 2007 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No not at all
by I need more Esteban on Oct 22, 2007 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I considered a royalsreview.com plug
by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ha!
by RoyalsRetro on Oct 22, 2007 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
thats great
by FireBell on Oct 22, 2007 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting
They've been following Hillman since June.
by RoyalsRetro on Oct 22, 2007 3:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Dayton Moore just said we need to...
by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 4:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Gator
by BlueEyesAustin on Oct 22, 2007 4:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I hope they can teach him that
by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Manager's importance a-la Dayton
Potential trump card against your "manager is minimal" argument was just expressed by Dayton in in the interview with Keitzman: "winners attract winners." I can't quote him exactly, but he said something to the effect of great players wanting to come to KC because the manager is a winner.
I'm not sure if that factor is real or not, but if it is, then the value of the manager has to be huge, way beyond tactical moves that produce a win or loss in a single game. Players and plays win the game, but managers attract the players who make (or can make) the plays.
Exciting time to be a Royals' fan, isn't it? Great blog, too. Thanks!
by RickMckc on Oct 22, 2007 4:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What attracts players?
- Money (the best contract in terms of dollars and years)
- A chance to win. And that means a winning team or a team they think will win. And I don't think that's about the manager. I think that's about the talent on the team and whether the team has been winning in the recent past.
by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You forgot
-Signed Mike Hampton
by RoyalsRetro on Oct 22, 2007 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
More than money?
by RickMckc on Oct 22, 2007 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Byrd
by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
closeness to your supplier
by buddyball on Oct 23, 2007 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aggressiveness
by Billex Gordler on Oct 22, 2007 4:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Winners attract winners
by FireBell on Oct 22, 2007 4:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The Long Ball
by philofthenorth on Oct 22, 2007 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought it was a gritty approach
by buddyball on Oct 23, 2007 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hillman on offensive philosophy
Then he was asked about base running and base stealing. He said the Royals must be aggressive on the basepaths. He said the team will will be making some aggressive mistakes, but you can't become a good base stealing team without making some aggressive mistakes. He said he's not going to give everyone the green light, but you have to get runners moving.
by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2007 4:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Hillman on 810
-Last week was his first visit ever to Kansas City - loved it
-Is passionate about the game of baseball, that's what drove him to Japan. Believes the whole of the team is more important than its individual parts, doesn't seek the limelight. Has to be confident to prove himself to people despite his lack of MLB experience.
-Is an optimist, believes in the best in players
-Japanese players worked 6-8 hours a day in spring training; had agility checks to improve lower half of body as part of conditioning - some guys would work on that from 9-5.
-Doesn't think we have all the pieces right now according to stats, especially offensively, but thinks that teams overachieve sometimes - like the Fighters.
-Credits Dayton Moore and Bob McClure for improvement in pitching, is happy he inherits an improved pitching staff, doesn't know yet how much more they need to improve
-Offensive players need to check their egos and understand they have abilities that haven't been tapped yet because no one has asked them to tap them; players need to be flexible; likes bunting, but doesn't anticipate bunting nearly as much as he did in Japan (3-4 times a game); wants players to get more comfortable stealing bases until we get home run hitters; important to understand strengths and weaknesses of personnel
-Plans on team making aggressive mistakes on bases, but that's the only way they'll learn how to run the bases well; plans to "turn em loose"; says you can tell how badly a team wants it by how they run the bases
-Thinks there are more and more Japanese players that want to come to the US, he'll take em if they want to come here, but that's up to Dayton; is willing to give Dayton advice on player evaluation if he is asked
-Only one pitcher from his old team can come to the States right now, but he wouldn't draw much interest from US team - Hiroki Kuroda could be an interesting pitcher that could come over this year
-Hasn't discussed payroll with Dayton or the Glasses; believes the Glasses are committed to winning
-Was "Sportsman of the Year" in Japan last year; is recognized throughout the island of Hokkaido; most surprising thing to him about Japan is how important people think he is; would rather deflect the credit to the players
by RoyalsRetro on Oct 22, 2007 5:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
he sounds excited to be here
i can't remember Buddy ever giving off that vibe... he just showed up and started making excuses for his previous jobs
by royalsreview on Oct 22, 2007 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, RR... I hope you had a day to kill
If he would happen to take the Royals to the playoffs next year would he still be meaningless. I doubt it.
I am all for his aggressive attitude. I am tired of watching the Royals playing longball with shortball talent. If it means more steals, sacrificing a man along or even (gasp) a bunt then it is a hell of a lot better than seeing 9 guys up there whiffing away into the Kansas dust and coming up with nothing.
Meaningless manager... I can't wait for the complaints to start then lets see how meaningless he is.
by grudz69 on Oct 23, 2007 12:24 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Chapter 2 of his dissertation
by buddyball on Oct 23, 2007 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hope he wasn't expecting an A.
by grudz69 on Oct 23, 2007 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Band-what?
by buddyball on Oct 23, 2007 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
just a few hours on a sunday night
by royalsreview on Oct 23, 2007 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Judging by the comments of the Royals players,
A manager's primary role is to make his team believe they will win. Confidence is the foundation upon which all the skills and performances are built. Once the confidence and team dynamic are established, a teams OPS, VORPS, SMURFS, and whatever other meaningless stats your spreadsheets come up with, will rise along with it. Building this confidence and team dynamic is the role of the manager. Anyone who has been involved in sports knows this.
I think, for this reason, Trey Hillman seems like he has a good grasp of what it takes to build this team into a winner. I belive he will make a difference of at least 15 wins in 2008.
by kennybud8 on Oct 23, 2007 10:17 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Well
by BlueEyesAustin on Oct 23, 2007 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't say as I blame him.
by kennybud8 on Oct 23, 2007 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like your style.... that was very well put.
If Hillman can get this team to play together and to do the simple things to win ballgames then I will consider him a success. Even if the stats gods don't deem him important.
by grudz69 on Oct 23, 2007 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks,
by kennybud8 on Oct 23, 2007 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think anyone...
by NYRoyal on Oct 23, 2007 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
by kennybud8 on Oct 23, 2007 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree...and disagree
The role of the manager "lighting a fire" under his players is commonly overrated in my opinion. It smacks of old school traditional schlock to me.
by NYRoyal on Oct 23, 2007 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Chocked full of motivation...
by grudz69 on Oct 23, 2007 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe motivation wasn't the problem
by NYRoyal on Oct 23, 2007 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not really talking about
No, these guys aren't magical, and they don't light too many motivational fires, but the right personality can have a magical, intangible effect on a team. I think they call it "chemistry", and it can't be calculated on a spreadsheet. So I'll say it again...to think that a manager can only make a diffrence of 2-3 games is wrong, in my humble opinion.
by kennybud8 on Oct 23, 2007 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure
The fact that pay is more closely tied to performance in professional baseball than it is in most spheres (other than CEOs) makes people more self-motivated, though, I'll give you that.
by Moose Tacos on Oct 23, 2007 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Forgot to mention that your exapmple of Zack
by kennybud8 on Oct 23, 2007 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i was no bell fan
by royalsreview on Oct 23, 2007 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Buddy or Bobby Mac????
by grudz69 on Oct 23, 2007 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought Buddy did a good job
by kennybud8 on Oct 23, 2007 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
with 15 wins...
(in the NL)
by royalsreview on Oct 23, 2007 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
With 25 wins, we could get eggrolls or the
by grudz69 on Oct 23, 2007 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
not having a horrible April and May
by royalsreview on Oct 23, 2007 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Amen, brother...I hear the angels singing...
by grudz69 on Oct 23, 2007 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One overlooked point
I just thought that should be mentioned. At the core of it all, it is about enjoying the game. Wins are not the only thing that keeps us interested. I think I will like Hillman, and that matters.
by James Quinn on Oct 24, 2007 1:59 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Ditto That.
A few home runs are fun to watch also.
by kennybud8 on Oct 24, 2007 8:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent point.
It's more fun to root for a guy you like.
by Billex Gordler on Oct 24, 2007 8:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Briefly on logical consistency...
I think Rany made a similar point after 2003 over at R and R on the Rs when he was defending Tony Pena. Something about how he could forgive a manager's poor in-game skills if he had the ability to motivate, however strangely. I'm not sure how Rany feels about that post now, but the point remains that it's the other factors, the leaders of men factors, that are more important for a manager to have.
by Billex Gordler on Oct 24, 2007 8:52 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Consistency
If a manager is responsible for 2-3 wins per season, then I want those wins. I think too much smallball robs the team of runs, thus decreasing our chance that the manager will get us those 2-3 wins. I've certainly never said that we're doomed if Hillman sacrifices too much or runs too much. But I think it would cost us some games. Not many.
It's the other stuff that matters, not the bunting or sacrificing or whatever.
I think that is exactly wrong. It is the bunting, sacrificing and other strategic and tactical decisions which really matter. The "other stuff" is mostly smoke, mirrors and people blowing intangibles out of proportion.
I think Rany made a similar point after 2003 over at R and R on the Rs when he was defending Tony Pena. Something about how he could forgive a manager's poor in-game skills if he had the ability to motivate, however strangely.
Pena is a good example of the smoke and mirrors I mentioned above. His "motivational powers" were a ghost, a mirage. We thought it was there, but it wasn't. This is Pena's managerial record:
2002 49-77 .389
2003 83-79 .512
2004 58-104 .358
2005 8-25 .242
Like many others, I hoped in 2003 that he was some kind of supreme motivator who was able to get the very best out of his players, or was maybe even able to get players to play way over their heads. But I think his complete managerial record shows that not to be the case. Sometimes players have really good years way out of line with the rest of their career. Sometimes multiple players do that at the same time. That is what we saw in 2003. That was the cause of the Royals success in 2003, not Tony Pena's magical motivational power. If one credits Pena's motivational prowess, then I would ask why he didn't exercise this power in 2002, but did in 2003 and then didn't in 2004 or 2005?
by NYRoyal on Oct 24, 2007 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay.
by Billex Gordler on Oct 24, 2007 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We had a lot of agreement going there for a min
by NYRoyal on Oct 24, 2007 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yea...
however, I will wring my hands if GMDM looks at a bad offense and says, " more bunting will fix this"
no, we need players
by royalsreview on Oct 24, 2007 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I Remember An
I had commented on the game thread that no way did I want Teahen to sacrifice, as I was tired of having runners on 2nd and 3rd with 3 outs. I thought we still had a better chance of scoring multiple runs (I'm pretty sure we were on the road) with the heart of the order, Teahen in particular, swinging away. Was I wrong?
by philofthenorth on Oct 24, 2007 7:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think
Another important variable is who is up with those runners on 1st and 2nd with nobody out. Is he a good hitter? How good? Can he bunt? How well? In this case, you had a decent hitter who hadn't been hitting well recently. Not a great hitter. Not an RBI machine. And he was/is a good bunter.
If you move the runners up, you make it easier for one of the next two batters to drive in at least one run. Also, it takes the double play off the table.
Anyway, I'd like to see a run expectancy chart which shows in various situations the likelihood of scoring at least one run. But my strong feeling is that you are more likely to score at least one run in an inning with runners on 2nd and 3rd one out, than with runners on first and second, nobody out.
Long story short, I think it was the right decision, and in most such situations (depending on some variables), it would be the right thing to do again.
by NYRoyal on Oct 24, 2007 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Run Expectancy...
2nd and 3rd, 1 out: 70% chance of scoring 1 or more.
by Billex Gordler on Oct 24, 2007 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What Are The Odds
by philofthenorth on Oct 24, 2007 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is an important point
by NYRoyal on Oct 25, 2007 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good writing
"Over the course of a full game, the difference between the best and worst batting order is, roughly, a run..." and "...the worst possible manager. He arranges the lineup completely backwards, always bunts at the wrong time, calls for double steals with Billy Butler and John Buck on base... ....If this manager has a particularly weird and uneven roster -- a big if -- his behavior might cost the team something like 15-20 wins. " This is pulling numbers out of a hat. These are sabremetric numbers, and sabremetrics calls itself a science, and all science is infallible and... the truth is that sabremetrics is not a science, it is a tool. You use it as a qualifier (player Joe is PROBABLY better than player Bill) rather than a quantifier (manager Bill will win 4 more games than manager Joe because Bill's team will score an average of 1 run per game more).
How about an example using the "science" of sabermetrics. Apparently it has been "proven" that a relatively high stolen base rate is necessary to be beneficial. This rate is listed as 67% - higher if the the game is close or if it's in the latter innings. Of course how close is close and how late is latter is left to our imagination. Look at this situation. The only way we can quantify this is if a baserunner gets on and whether THAT baserunner scores or doesn't score that inning, depending on whether they steal or not. We can't quantify whether the threat of a good base steeler at first or second affects how or what pitches are thrown, whether the pitcher is more stressed and his effectiveness latter in the game is reduced, how a stolen base may affect the game in the middle of a rally and so forth and so forth. If you don't quantify all the situations, then you can't put a number on it.
"Baseball just isn't like other sports in a few simple but very profound ways. First, attitude and desire, beyond a minimum requirement of paying attention and caring..." Sorry, if someone is throwing a 95 MPH fastball within 2 or 3 feet of my head, I pay more than a minimal amount of attention to it. Sure there is an element of relaxation necessary. But there is in all sports. My son is a mixed martial arts fighter (you know, UFC style). He talks about going into his first couple of bouts and having this huge adrenalin rush before the bouts which results in using up too much energy too quickly. He calls it an adrenaline dump. Now he is much more relaxed. Pumped? Yes. Manic? No.
"The bottom line is that baseball is a game of failure,..." No, the game is about the defense and pitching succeeding more than the hitting and offense. The game is about you being more successful than your opponent in as many facets of the game as you can.
I have been in many work-places, and in nearly all of them leadership comes from the top down. If we think that attitude, character, desire, and yes, inspiration are derived by money and money alone, I think that is wrong. Totally wrong. Yes, pro team sports has this weird combination of competing against your teammates and competing against the other teams. You have to have leadership to route all this competition in the right direction, and to make it enjoyable. I also know the difference at work between grinding and flying, and the results that are obtained.
Specifically, about the men involved. "If Moore's idea of fixing the offense is to bunt more as opposed to signing a guy who can actually, you know, hit, then that is the problem, not the bunts Hillman later calls." I think that a GM coming from a winning tradition who hires a manager who has just led his team to its' 2nd championship shot is doing the right thing. Looking at the Ham Fighters power-lacked line-up, bunting doesn't look like such a bad idea. Adaptability, right?
"In reality, the manager is much more important to the men who have to write 162 game recaps a season than it is to anyone else."
The last point I would make is this. The manager is responsible for many other things besides what happens on the field during a game. Nearly all of those things impact the players in a very direct way. Also, if he can be a positive influence to the extent of winning 3 to 6 more games by being the field manager, that might be the difference between missing the wild card by a game or winning the world series. I feel that the Rockies at the start of this year were in the same position as the Royals will be in about 2 years. Now, this might be a special moment to the the people who write about the event, but I can assure you it is much more important to those who take part in it. Sela.
Sorry about being so long-winded. I just don't believe people make very little difference. I think anyone can make all the difference in the world. Especially leadership.
by Yoda on Oct 25, 2007 1:49 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I like the part about pitching and defense
i agree that a manager can inspire people, but if you think about it logically, one manager's personality isn't going to inspire everyone even if they all wanted or needed it
if Jimmy Gobble gets inspired by Hillman and becomes 10% better, its still not going to have much effect
by royalsreview on Oct 25, 2007 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pitching, defense and hitting
by NYRoyal on Oct 25, 2007 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
Chemistry is much, much more important in sports in which players on the same team more regularly interact with each other: basketball, football, soccer, hockey, and so on. You can be an absolutely lousy teammate, caring only about individual numbers and achievements, and still add a tremendous amount of value to your team. Not so (or at least much more infrequently so) in other team sports.
by Rowyal on Oct 25, 2007 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good post
by NYRoyal on Oct 25, 2007 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, we'll agree to disagree
by Yoda on Oct 25, 2007 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
whoops
by Yoda on Oct 25, 2007 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right,
by Rowyal on Oct 25, 2007 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A mild defense of the stat-heads
I think most in the SABR community recognize that the best they can do in terms of evaluating managers affect on win totals is something pretty loose, like, "not all that much, probably just a few games." This doesn't represent a problem with the analytical study of baseball; it is just recognition of its inherent limitations. Even if the only thing produced by a lot of research is a pretty fuzzy answer, it still is of some value.
by James Quinn on Oct 25, 2007 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
by NYRoyal on Oct 25, 2007 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
To respond to both of you
by Yoda on Oct 25, 2007 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yoda
There is no question that the "coaches are responsible for 2-3 wins over the course of a season" is estimation, not mathematical proof. I don't think anyone (in the SABR community or outside of it) thinks all variables have been accounted for, measured and calculated. There is much there which can't be measured. It is just an estimation, based on a variety of pieces of information and including a number of assumptions. Personally, I buy that number, partially because I share with them a number of beliefs and assumptions. I do agree that the number is far from "proven". It is just an estimate.
Another thing I don't like is this bibliographical error. A, B, and C repeat what D and E heard from F, all as gospel. Before you know, it's recognized as truth. It seems that no one does their homework.
Ok, you're way off base here. Studies are done, analyzed, repeated by others, critiqued, repeated again, critiqued and tweaked by others and repeated again. From this process some truths emerge and are constantly added to and tweaked yet again. When those widely recognized truths emerge, they are indeed repeated as fact(as they should be). The same is true in hard sciences, social sciences and in any academic field.
Excuse me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that very few people in the SABR "community" actually plug the numbers into something like VORP to see how reliable it is.
You are wrong. As these more complicated metrics have developed over they last 15-20 years, they are constantly tested, analyzed and critiqued. Others develop different metrics which attempt to cure the flaws in prior metrics and improve upon them. VORP itself grew out of and was an improvement on prior metrics.
For instance, no one is saying "VORP is it. If you want to know how good a player is, all you need to know is VORP. That is the stat, now and forever." In the eyes of some, VORP as already been superceded by WARP. In five years, it is quite possible that VORP and WARP will have fallen by the wayside in favor of better, perhaps very different metrics.
Yoda, I don't know if you are a subscriber to and frequent reader of sites like baseballprospectus.com or if you read SABR publications, but I would suggest you do. I think that would inform your opinions. It appears you are just assuming a lot about SABR and serious baseball research/analysis without actually be directly familiar with it.
by NYRoyal on Oct 26, 2007 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have never checked out
by kennybud8 on Oct 26, 2007 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BP is great, but much of the site
Baseball Think Factory, Beyond the Boxscore and Hardball Times are all decent alternatives. They are free, but the material on these sites is more random in nature.
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main
There are some team specific blogs. I do not know of one that covers the Royals, but JinAZ on the Reds is an example of a great team site in my opinion.
http://jinaz-reds.blogspot.com/
I read SABR droppings from time to time and they have helped me appreciate the hobby on just one additional level. Yoda is right that, as in any field, there is a lot of garbage out there. You have to read critically.
Part of what pointed me towards SABR material was trying to understand how MLB teams evaluate minor league and amateur talent. One of the most valuable tools I've gained from all my analytical reading is the concept of Replacement Player level. That just seems to be core to understanding how to best use limited resources while building an organization. Dewen's plus/minus fielding system is an amazing accomplishment. It took him and an assistant a full year to compile the information but in the end he produced what I think is the best static to measure individual fielders and how much their glove helps or hurts a team over a full season. When he published The Fielding Bible my eyes were opened.
by James Quinn on Oct 26, 2007 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I am assuming a great deal, but
Point 1 ARBITRARY
"it is just an estimation, based on a variety of pieces of information and including a number of assumptions." And what assumptions would those be? My estimate/guess is as good as yours. I link the 2-3 wins idea with sabremetrics thinking in this point because it fits the philosophy - easily quantifiable events (bunt or no bunt in a sacrifice situation) are easy to count, therefore they are the only things to count.
Point 3 TESTED
it seems to me that very few people in the SABR "community" actually plug the numbers into something like VORP to see how reliable it is." Have you personally plugged in the numbers? Am I wrong in assuming you are a member of SABR? Can you quote specific cases that are independent? I'm going in with a (reasonably but skeptical) mindset here. What is the formula for VORP? BP used to have it on their website, but I can't seem to find it anymore.
...no one is saying "VORP is it... ... In the eyes of some, VORP as already been superceded by WARP...
All I know about WARP is what I've read on the net which was: WARP combines VORP and FRAA (which measures the number of runs a player contributes above an average player on defense). As far as I know FRAA formula is not available Is that true? And let's not even get into defensive metrics.
What independent studies are done on it? As it already may have superceded VORP, there should be a few, right?
Now, if you can't tell me what the formula for WARP is and if you can't tell me that there is independent studies done of it, and by who, and you ARE telling me that WARP is useful, I would say that you are contributing to my:
Point 3 BIBLIOGRAPHICAL ERROR
"A, B, and C repeat what D and E heard from F, all as gospel".
Now, you say "You are wrong. As these more complicated metrics have developed over they last 15-20 years, they are constantly tested, analyzed and critiqued". Now, I have to respond by saying Prove Me Wrong. The sabremetric community is promoting these "scientific" concepts, the burden of proof is on them. By the way, doesn't metrics mean standard of measurement, as opposed to hypothetical formulae derived from measurement?
Now tell me this.
Assigned values , Bill James WIN shares
Catcher 38 points 19%
First Base 12 points 6%
Second Base 32 points 16%
Third Base 24 points 12%
Shortstop 36 points 18%
Outfield 58 points 29%
Is this true? Are the % arbitrarily assigned due to a number of "assumptions"?
by Yoda on Oct 29, 2007 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BP.com
That said, even BP's founder has recognized just how incremental future analytical gains are likely to be. The most important lesson has been learned: Outs are the scarce commodity in baseball, and the best offensive players do the best job at avoiding them.
by Billex Gordler on Oct 26, 2007 2:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Good points
Huckaby's article was interesting, but I can't quite agree with him that "analysis is dead". The early revolution in baseball analysis is certainly transitioning into a second phase but I think he was unnecessarily fatalistic. It reminded me of Fukuyama's "End of History". I don't think this is an end point; it is more of a comma.
by NYRoyal on Oct 26, 2007 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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