Gil Meche Throws 124 Pitches for Absolutely No Reason

by Freneau on Sep 24, 2007 9:50 PM EDT in Kansas City Royals News

In Game 156, on September 24th, in a game between two losing teams Gil Meche threw 124 pitches.

Meche went into uncharted territory in terms of innings pitched in his career three starts ago. But, with Meche already over 100 pitches, in a 2-2 game, Buddy sent Meche back out to face the heart of the Oriole order.

Why?!?! Honestly, why?

Seriously, we all get it: the Meche signing wasn't without merit, and he's a leader of men, and the head badass in the locker-room and on and on. And no, its very very sad that he doesn't have more shiny pitcher W's this year. Terribly sad, in one of those not actually sad at all ways. All of that being said, this was a fundamentally idiotic move. Even if the risk is only small, considering there is absolutely no advantage to be gained, the move is indefensible. If I run across the street blindfolded and make it, it still doesn't mean I should have done it. Thats doubly true if there was nothing even waiting for me on the other side.

The beauty of the Meche contract is that he's locked up for four more seasons, and $11 M.per is likely going to be a bargain in a few years. Treating the Battle of Bako like its Game 7 of the World Series risks the very value of the contract we've spent a season defending.

Can we please bring some sense to this September of aimless irrationality, or would that not be fair to Dougie?

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Comments

is this a trick question?

because the Royals "braintrust" are a bunch of morons?

Success is counted sweetest by those who ne'er succeed. - Emily Dickinson

by buddyball on Sep 24, 2007 9:56 PM EDT reply actions

This has got to be

one of the worst losses of the season. We got 2 runs of one of the worst pitchers in the American League. I penciled this one in as a win when the probable pitchers were announced. Lets hope we sweep the sox and the Indians let Elarton pitch. Maybe Banny will pitch a complete game with 150 pitches tomorrow.

by gordonrules on Sep 24, 2007 10:03 PM EDT reply actions

How many 1-run losses is this?

by mazoboom on Sep 24, 2007 10:04 PM EDT reply actions

20-22 on the year

pretty good actually

but these things are random

by Freneau on Sep 24, 2007 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions

Generally,

one run losses tend to even out. This is the case even with the worst teams most years.

"True friends stab you in the front."-Oscar Wilde.

by NHZ on Sep 24, 2007 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions

Historically, yes

but 04-06 we were unbelievably bad in one run games.

by howserfan on Sep 25, 2007 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions

What's it take

to get Meche some run support? I would think he has to be in the top 10 in that category. I'm just concerned with his huge jump in innings this year. I really don't want to see him rehabbing during two years of this contract. Hey, Huber has value as a pinchrunner (this is the second or third time that I've seen that happen), former catchers are known for their speed!

by lordbyronk on Sep 24, 2007 10:18 PM EDT reply actions

only buddy

by Freneau on Sep 24, 2007 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions

As I said last night ...these loses hurt just

as much as the ones in April or May. Maybe more because the jackass we have as a manager is so pigheaded that he won't play anybody but his favs... on the team.

Only six more days until Fuddo gets his ass out of town and I really can't wait.

I am disgusted by GMDM's lack of control. If you publically say that Huber is going to get a shot and then you manager doesn't play him. The put your shoe up his ass and tell him he will start Huber or Brazell...or anybody else you brought up.

Is it Sunday, yet... This was one of many games this year that we should have won.

by grudz69 on Sep 24, 2007 10:24 PM EDT reply actions

I was shocked to look at the box score

and see Meche with 124 in late September in a game where KC had tied the score and gotten him off the hook for a loss. Totally irresponsible by Buddy. The bullpen is full of fresh arms especially this time of year. I hope Bannister gets an early hook in his last start so no damage can be done to him.

On another note, Daniel Cabrera with only 3 BB allowed and pitches into the 7th inning? He has 109 BBs for the year and KC gets only 3. He leads the AL in walks allowed, runs allowed and the MLB in losses. He is only worse than Jose Contreras and Jon Garland who totally shut down KC in past series. Tremendously awful performance. How can the Royals be so poor against the Orioles?

Very disappointed in the Royals management and performance in September. Part of me hopes they lose out and get first draft pick instead of pulling a Tigers sweep like last year.

by daveyork on Sep 24, 2007 10:35 PM EDT reply actions

The Genius of GMDM

Playing for the #1 pick in 2008 baby! Or not..

by nycroyal on Sep 24, 2007 10:37 PM EDT reply actions

How is Dayton Moore to blame for any of this?

I probably disagree with you.

by Scott McKinney on Sep 24, 2007 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions

How could he not be to blame?

I could care less about Bell's continuing display of idiocy.

I am a lot more concerned about Moore's apparent tolerance of it. Why? What the hell.

"Yellow teeth are grinning, happy hour's done, best be on the run" -- Romi Mayes

by tfn on Sep 24, 2007 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions

Managers make on-field decisions

Not general managers.

I probably disagree with you.

by Scott McKinney on Sep 25, 2007 3:02 AM EDT up reply actions

Pollyannas are people who

are unable to be objective.

"Yellow teeth are grinning, happy hour's done, best be on the run" -- Romi Mayes

by tfn on Sep 25, 2007 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions

If you are calling me a Pollyanna

Then please point to specific posts where I have been irrationally or unrealistically postive or optimistic about this team. I strive for realism. I try to stay out of the ditches of wild pessimism or optimism. And I try not to fly of the handle at every loss/mistake/negative occurrence. I try to look at things as realistically as possible and maintain perspective. If you think that isn't so, then please back it up. Don't just hurl a label at me.

And, more specifically, how is blaming the manager, not the GM for on-field decisions being a Pollyanna? That seemed like quite a non sequitur.

I probably disagree with you.

by Scott McKinney on Sep 25, 2007 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions

Calm down

One good non-sequitur surely deserved another.

If you read this blog regularly, you can't possibly believe that the dissatisfaction with Bell stems only from his on-field decisions, just yesterday or this month or this season.

"Yellow teeth are grinning, happy hour's done, best be on the run" -- Romi Mayes

by tfn on Sep 25, 2007 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions

That was criminal

Meche should have been pulled after the 6th, 101 pitches. Having him throw 124 pitches at this point in the season is criminally insane at best.

I probably disagree with you.

by Scott McKinney on Sep 24, 2007 10:38 PM EDT reply actions

wow

a negative comment about management.

by gordonrules on Sep 24, 2007 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions

I give them when warranted

Not just knee-jerk negative reactions to every move Bell makes.

I probably disagree with you.

by Scott McKinney on Sep 25, 2007 3:02 AM EDT up reply actions

God, you are so funny...LOL

by grudz69 on Sep 25, 2007 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions

Calm down there, Grudz

It will all be over soon.

I probably disagree with you.

by Scott McKinney on Sep 25, 2007 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions

pontificate to the end.... pollyanna...

by grudz69 on Sep 25, 2007 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions

Couldn't resist, could you?

Keep up the good work. Have another drink.

I probably disagree with you.

by Scott McKinney on Sep 25, 2007 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions

Gee... in your world I must be on a never

ending bender. What is worse, calling someone a moron or insinuating that they are a drunk? I guess you aren't that far above Joel after all. Keep ponificating "Polly" and enjoy life in your little perfect world.

by grudz69 on Sep 25, 2007 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions

I'm not insinuating that you are drunk

In fact, I'd be surprised if you were. You frequently talk about scotch on this site. I was merely referencing one of your favorite activities.

Calm down, Grudzy. You really have a burr under your saddle today.

I probably disagree with you.

by Scott McKinney on Sep 25, 2007 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions

No, not a burr... just some rose colored

glasses some "Polly" left on their way to the yellow brick road.

by grudz69 on Sep 25, 2007 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions

You're in rare form today

How dare I wear those rose colored glasses! lmao

I probably disagree with you.

by Scott McKinney on Sep 25, 2007 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions

They are sort of a fashion statement on you.

by grudz69 on Sep 25, 2007 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions

Thanks

I prefer rosy glasses to a rosy nose. Just kidding there, Grudzy!

Seriously, maybe you should take a drink and calm down.

I probably disagree with you.

by Scott McKinney on Sep 25, 2007 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions

I can't wait until you

two square off in fantasy football.

by royaldaddy on Sep 25, 2007 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions

Unfortunately

It won't even be close.

I probably disagree with you.

by Scott McKinney on Sep 25, 2007 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions

anythng can happen on any given day....

"Don't count your crackers before they crumble, Polly"

by grudz69 on Sep 25, 2007 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions

Anything can happen

Lots can happen between now and then. A few key injuries and I could do a nosedive. But I'm feeling confident. Care to make a wager?

I probably disagree with you.

by Scott McKinney on Sep 25, 2007 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions

I don't care who wins

just as long as grudz keeps calling ny "polly" and ny keeps making drunk jokes about grudz.

by Moose Tacos on Sep 25, 2007 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions

That'll never get old!

I probably disagree with you.

by Scott McKinney on Sep 25, 2007 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions

Why not?

You pitch count/inning count nazis need to settle down just a little bit. There is NO (zero, nada, zip, etc etc) research that shows that for a mature pitcher 120 pitches in a game is bad. Even the most conservative estimates out there don't start to be concerned until the 130-pitch threshold is reached.

As for the increase in innings pitched, Meche has now thrown 24 more innings than last year. I'm familiar with Will Carroll's rule of 30, but it makes a helluva lot more sense to trust Bob McClure's eyes than to shut a guy down because of some generalized deductive rule. Presumably, we all believe that Meche will be pitching meaningful games in September in a Royals uniform. I'd feel better knowing that he'd started 34 games in a season before and could do it again.

More importantly, the statistics show that he's as strong now as he was on opening day. Take a look at his OPS-against splits pre- and post-All Star Game. They're virtually identical. If he's as tired as some of you believe, he's fooling his coaches, his GM and the opposing teams.

by Billex Gordler on Sep 24, 2007 10:46 PM EDT reply actions

its the whole package Billex

Innings/Pitches/Situation

Do i think his arm will fall off tomorrow? No. But in the risk/reward matrix, it was pretty indefensible.

by Freneau on Sep 24, 2007 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions

HOW???

124 pitches is essentially the job description of a ML starting pitcher. That's a good day at the office. This is not Dusty Baker leaving a 21 year old Kerry Wood in the game after 130 pitches. Incidentally, take a look at Meche's pitch count for his last start last season. I'm just saying...

by Billex Gordler on Sep 24, 2007 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions

124 pitches is not the job description, or even

a "good day" ... as you know, it is an very uncommon occurrence. Perhaps for good reason?

"Yellow teeth are grinning, happy hour's done, best be on the run" -- Romi Mayes

by tfn on Sep 24, 2007 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions

Meche may be more injury prone than Wood

We're not talking about some sort of iron man: the guy has had major health problems. Why tempt fate?

by marbotty on Sep 25, 2007 1:17 AM EDT up reply actions

i meant mark prior...

sorry...

by Billex Gordler on Sep 24, 2007 11:00 PM EDT reply actions

two things

120 + pitches is a lot. This isn't 1965: guys have to go all out every hitter, which you didn't have to do back then.
The main issue, in terms of injury risk, is his next start however, which may or may not even happen. If the Royals shut him down now, its probably just fine. (This may be what Billex is getting at)

However, this is the Royals, so anything is possible.

by LeoBloom on Sep 25, 2007 12:11 AM EDT reply actions

Wow

Buddy is really doing his best to leave in a cloud of stink.

14 pitches for Meche in a meaningless game...and JASON SMITH PHing for TPJ.

He really doesn't understand the game of baseball, does he?

by BlueEyesAustin on Sep 25, 2007 12:57 AM EDT reply actions

Is is poor form to fire someone

Two weeks before they're supposed to retire?

by marbotty on Sep 25, 2007 1:15 AM EDT reply actions

Well

This is why when you fire someone you really should FIRE THEM as in "GET THE HELL OUT OF KC YOU WORTHLESS EXCUSE OF A BASEBALL COACH!"

by BlueEyesAustin on Sep 25, 2007 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions

Bell wasn't fired. He resigned/retired.

That is, unless you have some inside information in the Royals organization to the contrary.

I probably disagree with you.

by Scott McKinney on Sep 25, 2007 3:03 AM EDT up reply actions

Um

Sure.

by BlueEyesAustin on Sep 25, 2007 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions

Ah, I see

So, everyone knows he was fired? Is that the deal? There was a poll up on this site and most people didn't think he was fired. But who knows. Do you know? Of course you don't. Do you have any evidence that he was fired? No. You are merely assuming it.

I probably disagree with you.

by Scott McKinney on Sep 25, 2007 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions

Can we have a "do over" on

that decision? Your 5-3 hopes are looking dim. We could be luckiy to win any of the last six games. Maybe if Buddy ducked out a few days early for Cincy and left things in the hands of Bobby Mac....maybe????

by grudz69 on Sep 25, 2007 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions

Hopes are dimming

Yeah, that 5-3 finish I was hoping for is looking unlikely. 4-4 is possible. I'm still hoping.

I probably disagree with you.

by Scott McKinney on Sep 25, 2007 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions

2-4 in the last six...if we are really lucky...

But, we have Fuddo on our side so luck doesn't matter....

by grudz69 on Sep 25, 2007 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions

Fired

Occam's Razor.

His contract was up and Buddy saw the writing on the wall.

by BlueEyesAustin on Sep 25, 2007 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions

and it said...

"YOU ARE AN IDIOT."

by grudz69 on Sep 25, 2007 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions

Occam's Razor?

As I'm sure you know, Occam's razor means that the simplest explanation is usually the right one. The simplest explanation is that he was pushed out or that he was going to be fired? That is simpler than Buddy just wanting to retire?

Again, you are supposing. Is there any real evidence that he was fired or that he was going to be fired?

I probably disagree with you.

by Scott McKinney on Sep 25, 2007 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions

I thought it was the instrument used

for circumcisions. OUCH.....

by grudz69 on Sep 25, 2007 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions

Occam is spinning in his grave

again.

"Yellow teeth are grinning, happy hour's done, best be on the run" -- Romi Mayes

by tfn on Sep 25, 2007 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions

Poor Occam is frequently abused on this site

I probably disagree with you.

by Scott McKinney on Sep 25, 2007 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions

Occam

Of course the idea that Buddy was fired fits Occam's Razor. To assert otherwise is to postulate, utterly without proof, that Buddy was given the opportunity to sign a new contract this year.

In the absence of that discussion, Buddy was being terminated at the end of the season. Which is what is going to happen.

by BlueEyesAustin on Sep 25, 2007 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions

I don't think that makes sense

Of course the idea that Buddy was fired fits Occam's Razor. To assert otherwise is to postulate, utterly without proof, that Buddy was given the opportunity to sign a new contract this year.

Huh? So the two choices were that he was fired or that he was offered a contract extension? Those aren't the only two choices at all. They may have been discussing a new contract. Or Moore may have been waiting for the offseason to discuss that. We really don't know how Moore feels about Bell. All of his public comments have been positive, but that doesn't tell us much either way. But you assume Bell was going to be fired/not re-signed...without any evidence.

Austin, you are the only one who is "postulating utterly without proof." At most you are speculating.

I probably disagree with you.

by Scott McKinney on Sep 25, 2007 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions

Um No

YOU are the one who is assuming/postulating that Buddy had the opportunity to sign a new contract.

by BlueEyesAustin on Sep 25, 2007 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions

Not assuming anything

I'm using the available facts. Bell retired, period. Anything about him being fired, forced out, told he wouldn't be re-signed is mere speculation. Bell retired and no one in the organization said anything to the contrary.

Do you have any additional inside information from the organization? No, you are merely speculating.

I probably disagree with you.

by Scott McKinney on Sep 25, 2007 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions

strictly speaking

this isn't a case where Occam's razor can be applied at all, since it's not a matter of proof.

In terms of the heuristic, I think the two ways of viewing Bell's retirement are on equal footing. Either you make an assumption of the sort "Bell wants to spend more time with his family" or one of the sort "Moore wants to hire his own manager."

Who's to say it wasn't mutual? Both stories are compelling enough, from my point of view.

How did this argument begin anyway?

by Moose Tacos on Sep 25, 2007 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions

Well said

We don't have enough information to assume X, Y or Z was the real reason Bell quit. We can all speculate and that's about it.

The argument began with someone making an assumption that Bell was really fired. Again, that's just speculation.

I probably disagree with you.

by Scott McKinney on Sep 25, 2007 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions

Yes

Particularly when they have come back from cancer and are raising a daughter with Down's syndrome!

by jbrocato on Sep 25, 2007 7:26 AM EDT up reply actions

We all have mountains we have to overcome

in our lives. It is no excuse and I think even Buddy wouldn't try using it as such.

by grudz69 on Sep 25, 2007 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions

My take

I agree that it is pointless, bordering on negligent, to let any starter go past 110-115 pitches in September, while you have plenty of callups available, and while the game means nothing to your playoff chances.

I also want to chime in on some other things that bother me to no end:

In this game, Bell orders a sacrifice not once, not twice, but THREE fricking times! Insane. You're playing in a BANDBOX, in an era where games routinely require 5-6 runs to win, and yet we constantly are subjected to one run stategies.

Joey Gathright needs to STOP TRYING TO STEAL. He simply is a POOR BASE STEALER, and at this point in his career, no amount of wishing is going to change that. DIDN'T THE ORGANIZATION ALREADY LEARN THIS LESSON ONCE WITH DDJ? Jesus Christ, they let him run into out after out for several years before FINALLY realizing he was not a good base stealer; apparently, history is repeating itself with Gathright. He is now NINE OUT OF SEVENTEEN on the season. That IS ATROCIOUS! STOP TRYING TO STEAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by loyal2s dad on Sep 25, 2007 9:54 AM EDT reply actions

contention

Gathright is a career 76% base stealer in the minors and 72% in the majors. By all accounts he has the speed to make these percentages higher with better know-how. For exactly the same reasons we are complaining about everything else, these are *exactly* the times Gathright should be trying to steal and get better at this. This is an area in which he can contribute.

by Moose Tacos on Sep 25, 2007 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions

Yeah I agree

If he can't steal bases then we really need to not have him waste an outfield spot. Let him try now or see ya later gator.

by I need more Esteban on Sep 25, 2007 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions

Gator

all his offensive value is in speed. If he's not going to use that he'll be struggling to be a 4th/5th OF his whole career.

by lordbyronk on Sep 25, 2007 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions

Actually, I think most of his value is OBP

He has developed some good on base skills. I think that is his primary talent and main offensive value. Of course, his speed does help him get on base. But he's not a base stealer and may never be one.

I probably disagree with you.

by Scott McKinney on Sep 25, 2007 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions

So, bring in or up someone who can...

I got to run... Joes's Tap is having a Tuesday early bird happy hour. We, drunks have to get our juice early and often. Bye... Polly...

by grudz69 on Sep 25, 2007 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions

Have one on me, Grudz

I probably disagree with you.

by Scott McKinney on Sep 25, 2007 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions

only possibility

was that Meche was trying to get his 10th win. Getting to double digits would somehow justify his season?
Hey Gil, ask the fans - we're thrilled with your season. If this offense doesn't want to support you, don't tax yourself so late in the season.

by David Howards Legacy on Sep 25, 2007 10:31 AM EDT reply actions

that is a possibility

but only adds to the stupidity

by LeoBloom on Sep 25, 2007 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions

has anyone seen if last night was meche's last

start?

that would change how bad this was

by LeoBloom on Sep 25, 2007 12:12 PM EDT reply actions

72% career basestealer

I believe that is still below what most experts calculate the break even point to be for stealing bases. With that in mind, I stick to my guns and still say he should not try.

Yes, I suppose it's OK to work on it this season since we are out of contention.

Of course, it would also be OK to take a look at Huber and Brazell for the same reason.

by loyal2s dad on Sep 25, 2007 1:24 PM EDT reply actions

I don't mind him working on it

But his SB% is getting worse, rather than better. I don't think that bodes well for his base stealing future.

So to me, he looks like a 4th/5th OFer who gets on base pretty well with no power, little base stealing ability, with mediocre-to-poor defensive skills and a weak arm.

I probably disagree with you.

by Scott McKinney on Sep 25, 2007 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions

break even point

People have come down from the original number, with some people saying as low as 67%, but I'm not sure there is a consensus. Regardless, your point that he is not helping the team at this point is well taken.

I meant it in exactly the spirit you mention - in the same way we should be looking at Huber, Gathright should be trying things out and seeing if he can push that number closer to 80. It is disconcerting that his rate has been falling but it seems worthwhile to me to invest some outs to try to figure out whether it is possible.

by Moose Tacos on Sep 25, 2007 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions

The opinion of Marc Normandin at BP

There was no reason to stretch Meche so long. It was a mistake without question. But perhaps it wasn't the catastrophe some are making it out to be. Here is the opinion of a guy at Baseball Prospectus, for whatever it's worth:

Will (Rogantide): Gil Meche threw 124 pitches last night, but it was a must-win game against the Orioles after-all. But if the Royals shut him down for the rest of the season (not that this has been announced), no big whoop, right?

Marc Normandin: He pitched a beauty after a 119 and 120 pitch game back in July, but he struggled in a few starts after that. A single occurrence shouldn't be a big deal, but they probably shouldn't stretch him for consecutive 120-pitch games anymore. He should be fine, and if they shut him down it's not a big deal.

Sounds less than apocalyptic. Is that our Will asking the question?

I probably disagree with you.

by Scott McKinney on Sep 25, 2007 4:42 PM EDT reply actions