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Royals Insider: Tony Pena

As we delve forth into the biographical and prediction-filled journey that is Royals Insider, we must recap a blast from the past, in the affectionate name of Tony Pena. Of course, I'm not referring to that Tony Pena. Or that Tony Pena. I'm talking about our newest Major League shortstop acquisition.


Yes, that Tony Pena! Mierda!

Born in San Pedro de Macoris, Dominican Republic, Pena was signed as an undrafted free agent by the Atlanta Braves in the summer of 1999. Throughout the first two seasons in the Chops' farm system, Pena established himself as a little-power and little-contact hitter, but a defensive wizard nonetheless. Unlike some prospects, who waver and flash throughout their career, Pena's career Minor League numbers tell the entire story. His OPS-es from 2000 through 2006 were .495, .585, .593, .632, .648, .632, and .666, respectively. Uncannily low by any regard. Pena's defense, at the beginning, was also rather uninspiring. In his six years in the minors, he never posted a fielding percentage higher than .965, playing only shortstop and nothing else. Perhaps, because Pena began playing baseball at the age of 16, it's meaningful to expect him to improve?

Slightly, but not necessarily founded.

Despite hitting a somewhat flukish 11 home runs for AA Greenville in 2004, Pena has solidified himself as the player that he is. However, what is perhaps most notable about Pena's Minor League record is his ever-so-slight improvement at each stop upward on the organizational ladder. The offensive numbers are paltry at best, as his OPS has never topped the .666 he compiled for AAA Richmond in 299 at-bats in 2006. His Minor League totals respectively are unbelievably low - a .252/.285/.332 hitter in the minor leagues will certainly never translate well into the big-leagues.

On March 23, 2007, the Royals traded starting pitcher and 2004 fourth round draft pick Erik Cordier for Pena. Desperately seeking a shortstop, Dayton Moore and the Royals would grant the 26-year-old everyday opportunities for the entire 2007 season. Pena would play slightly below replacement value overall, according to the sabermetric statistic VORP (Value Over Replacement Player), which, mind you, does not include defense in its study. Before the 2006 season, three Baseball Prospectus writers voted for Tony Pena to win the Cristian Antonio Guzman Award for the position player most likely to put up the lowest VORP in regular playing time. In fact, he won the award for lowest VORP (-7.8) and Runs Created (47) for a regular shortstop. Meanwhile, Cordier had been plagued with injuries most of his career, having missed all of the 2005 season while recovering from a knee injury, and missing 2007 and part of 2006 with Tommy John elbow reconstruction project. The Braves more or less took Cordier as a long-term gamble, while sacrificing a player stuck in their Minor League purgatory, playing second fiddle to then-shortstop Edgar Renteria.

Despite his lackluster at the very best offense, Royals scouts herald his arm, range, and glove, using him in the same sentence as no-punch, all-field ex-Royal ballplayer Fred Patek. However, on July 7, 2007, he broke the club record for consecutive at-bats (192) without a walk.

Ideally, Pena's days as an everyday are probably numbered. At age 27, I'm expecting him to improve ever so slightly from his 2007 campaign offensively and defensively, as he matures physically and gains only his eleventh year of experience playing the game, period. Pena will likely receive everyday playing time as a shortstop, spelling Esteban German, Angel Berroa, Alberto Callaspo, or Jason Smith on that rare occasion.

Here is my crystal ball for Pena's 2008:

GS/G: 139/144
AB: 524
H: 140
BA: .267
OBP: .300
SLG: .355
OPS: .655
1B: 106
2B: 29
3B: 4
HR: 1
RBI: 33
BB: 19
K: 83
SB: 6
CS: 4
OPS+: 72

But the guy can field!....(for reasons I will explain below.)

On-field performance:
Significant dropoff from 2007: 25%
Repeats 2007 form: 55%
Numbers improved from 2007: 20%

Injury contingency:
Injured for 15 days or more: 5%

Whereabouts:
Chances traded before Opening Day: 10%
Chances traded, dropped, or demoted mid-season: 25%

Job allocation:
Starting shortstop: 75%
Backup/reserve: 15%
Platoon: 5%
Sent back to Omaha: 5%

ASSETS:

  • Exceptional glove work and range; above average arm (2007: +10 UZR, which measures runs above or below average, +13 Zone Rating, 4.56 RF9 at SS)
  • Largely unrefined, but raw, speed (7 3B's in 2007, 5 SB's)
  • Can take advantage of wide gaps at Kauffman Stadium, with his limited gap-oriented power (20 2B's and 5 3B's at home)
  • FLAWS:
  • Utter lack of plate discipline (drew an astounding 10 walks last year, in 509 AB's)
  • Little power to compensate for that patience (career .332 SLG in MiLB, career .354 SLG in MLB)
  • Well below average baserunning skills (59% SB success rate in MiLB)
  • In essence, the positive attributes that separate Tony Pena from the Almighty Angel Berroa are defensive range and glove and the lack of primal instinct in fundamentally screwing up in crucial or obvious situations. This would be included, but not limited to: getting picked off numerously, carelessly letting the groundball pop out of the glove, and swinging at curveballs three feet southeast of the strike zone (but instead hacking at pitches merely two feet away from the plate). One reason to be optimistic about Tony is that he has improved marginally in each Minor League level, perhaps from not beginning baseball play until age 16.

    Ultimately, I feel Pena's liabilities at the dish do not compensate for his exceptional defensive abilities. His utter lack of power combined with a complete lack of plate poise make Pena an automatic out in any league and in any situation. Perhaps his only redeeming quality is his ability to make decent contact. However, I'm skeptical Pena can even continue demonstrating that attribute in 2008. Although I would love to witness him improve significantly - or even marginally - next season, I'm not banking on it. I tabbed his OPS+ at an underwhelming six points above last year, but, sadly, he'll probably only perform slightly above replacement level. I'm not even sure Jason Smith would be much less of a liability at the shortstop position than our light-hitting friend.

    I believe what the front office must comprehend is that the 1970's and the 1980's no longer exist. No longer can a team truly count on an automatic out in the lineup, even if he has superior defensive abilities. In an era where injuries occur so frequently and teams never second guess sending a slightly injured player directly to the 15-Day D.L.- or more - counting on Pena, even in the #9 slot, defense included, will probably not make us significantly better in the short term or long term.

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    Pena
    He is awful at the plate, but spectacular with the glove and Royals fans generally don't have the hatred for him that they did for Berroa. That makes him an okay stopgap, but I fear that you are right and he will not be the future at the position. I hope Moosetacos can field a decent SS, but where do we go if he has to make a position change? I don't know enough about Mike Aviles. Is he a possible future starting SS? His numbers were alright last year in Omaha, but I've read that he projects as a utility infielder. How is his defense? You brought up a good point in that Pena is still a candidate to "breakout" or, at least, improve. Let's hope he feels pressured into improving his plate discipline. That would do wonders for his chances of remaining an everyday player.

    by royaldaddy on Jan 16, 2008 1:14 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

    I think .275/.300/.400 is doable
    I'm not saying this is the most likely outcome, but it wouldn't surprise me.  Also, I wouldn't say he has a complete lack of power.  I saw signs of line drive power.  He will never be a HR hitter, but his 34 extra base hits are not irrelevant.
    I probably disagree with you.

    by NYRoyal on Jan 16, 2008 1:23 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

    i'd be shocked
    He's never cleared .400 SLG in any stop in the minors, and the walk rate you suggest would be 50% higher than last years. (Although that part actually could be easily accomplished by just walking two or three more times.)

    Now, it's not out of the realm of possibilities that hit that 275/300/400 line, but I don't think we should bank on it happening.

    On a related, but somewhat depressing, note, Baseball Prospectus just named Eric Cordier the sleeper prospect for 2008 on today's Top 11 Atlanta Braves Prospects.  

    by marbotty on Jan 16, 2008 7:15 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

    Sleeper prospect
    Lots of iffy prospects with decent stuff, control problems and major injuries get "sleeper prospect" status.  This kid has lots of obstacles to overcome to ever pitch a single inning in the majors.  He's one of those "If he can develop his secondary pitches...and develops more control...and overcomes injury problems...he could be a good pitcher."
    I probably disagree with you.

    by NYRoyal on Jan 16, 2008 11:38 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

    his major injury is the same
    that Meche had.   The question is, then, whether it's better to have that injury earlier or later?  Or does it matter?

    As for the secondary pitches, I have no idea how Cordier stacks up.  BP certainly seems bullish on him.

    by marbotty on Jan 16, 2008 12:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

    Injury and pitching prospects
    I'm not saying this injury means his career is over.  But it is a very significant injury from which many pitchers never come back to their old 100%.  It is a big negative for any pitcher.

    BP's "bullishness" is that they are calling him a "sleeper prospect."  I can't be too impressed by that.  A small percentage of top pitching prospects become good or even decent major league pitchers.  What percentage of "sleeper prospects" reach that level of even minimal success?

    I'd much rather have TPJ right now than Eric "the sleeper" Cordier and the long road he has to maybe...possibly throwing a few innings in the majors.

    I probably disagree with you.

    by NYRoyal on Jan 16, 2008 12:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

    my memory is that Pena had some dramatic
    hot and cold streaks last season...

    lets see his monthly splits:

    April: .204/.245/.301
    May: .330/.352/.409
    June: .282/.279/.359
    July: .333/.337/.462
    August: .128/.160/.141
    Spet: .333/.338/.478

    So yea... a little bit of everything. Still, there were definitely extended periods of time in which he was a + hitter and a + defender.

    by royalsreview on Jan 16, 2008 10:44 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

    Stopgap only
    Another season or two as a starter, tops.

    Nothing against Pena - I think he would make an ideal utility man.

    Royals have their team sorta set up backwards in the middle infield - good defense, little offense starting, and then good offense, avg defense on the bench in German/Callaspo. Sorta the opposite of what good teams have, IMHO.

    Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying German should be starting over Pena or anything - just that one could make a good argument that utility infield combo of German and Callaspo might be the best in ALL of baseball. Of all the things you want to have the best of, that's probably not it...

    by loyal2s dad on Jan 16, 2008 10:44 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

    All good points
    "I'm tired of all these stupid a$$ questions every day. Why the f**k would I hit Brett for Miller?" The rest is history.

    by DC Royal on Jan 16, 2008 11:34 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

    TPJ!
    Remember when he was on pace for 324 triples???
    Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

    by RoyalsRetro on Jan 16, 2008 11:28 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

    TPJ
    I cannot believe that I'm going to admit this but... I kinda like him.  I like how scrappy he is on the field.  I value defense a lot though.  It's nice to have a fielder that makes amazing plays sometimes.  I also believe that you have to factor in the outs made that most SS wouldn't make.  How much does this help the pitcher out?  Especially with our group of young pitchers, I believe that this certainly helps them in ways we might not be able to see.  I can think of many times last year that he made some plays that just dropped my jaw... Thank God for DVR cause I had to watch them a few times before going back to the game.  This is also coming from a guy that really liked Carlos Febles... what a fan I am, always picking an underdog (or you might call it a player that sucks).  
    Waiting for the Royals to appear on ESPN everynight!

    by MooseTacos25 on Jan 16, 2008 11:39 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

    i sorta like him as well
    i have come around on the issue

    by royalsreview on Jan 16, 2008 11:49 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

    Me too
    I love his attitude. And its hard to find a shortstop that can hit. So you may as well get a good glove man I suppose until a better hitter comes along.
    Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

    by RoyalsRetro on Jan 16, 2008 11:53 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

    I don't love him, but don't give up on him
    I don't love TPJ.  The defense is great, but the hitting we saw in 2007 was insufficient for a major league starter at any position.  I just don't like the "we know all we need to know about TPJ and he'll never get better" idea.  He's had one MLB full season.  That never tells you "all you need to know."  Yes, I'm familiar with his minor league numbers.  But we also saw some signs of genuinely good hitting, not just a few good weeks, but a few good entire months.  

    I'm not saying we should be confident that he's the entire package and we should lock him down with a lifetime contract.  But we should definitely give him another season (or at least a half season) to see if his hitting can improve enough to make him a legitimate long-term solution.  If not, then we can move on without him and explore other options.  But I think writing him off in January 2008 is pretty silly.

    I probably disagree with you.

    by NYRoyal on Jan 16, 2008 12:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

    I'm not saying either one
    I have become a fan of TPJ.  I always have a soft side for players who really go out and play their hardest and let it be shown.  I believe that he does this.  I think that his hitting can be improved greatly.  Any Royals fan watching him knows that he tried too hard last year to hit HR's.  When he hit well he was hitting for gaps.  However when he didn't hit well he was trying to swing for the fences.  He is not a HR hitter by any means and I think that any good hitting coach could correct these mistakes by simply making him hit for the gaps rather than the fences.  He doesn't need to be hitting HR's, he needs to be getting on base in my opinion.
    Waiting for the Royals to appear on ESPN everynight!

    by MooseTacos25 on Jan 16, 2008 12:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

    okay, I'll say it then
    He's terrible, and probably won't improve.

    In fact, I'm counting on a decline -- perhaps maxing out his average at .250.  

    Since he has no power and doesn't walk, there's no reason to believe he can survive that sort of drop in batting average without a similar drop in OPS and offensive value.  Perhaps he'll manage to hit another homerun or two, but it will likely be accompanied by a huge drop in triples, essentially negating any gains.

    On the positive side, this decline probably won't matter that much, as Butler and Gordon's improvement will hopefully more than make up for it.

    by marbotty on Jan 16, 2008 1:04 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

    I see a bet coming
    I say Pena's OPS will increase, you think it will decrease.  If it goes up, I win, if it goes down, you win.  Same stakes as last time.  Interested?
    I probably disagree with you.

    by NYRoyal on Jan 16, 2008 1:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

    sure
    What are the parameters?  OPS at season's end?  All-Star break? Both?

    by marbotty on Jan 16, 2008 4:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

    I'm flexible
    I'd rather not do this at the All-Star break, but I don't want to wait unitl season's end.  So let's make it Sept. 1.  So, if his OPS after the Aug. 31 game is better than .640, I win.  If it is worse than .640, you win.  The winner will supply the loser with three clean signatures from which to choose.  And the loser will use the chosen signature through Dec. 31.  How does that sound?
    I probably disagree with you.

    by NYRoyal on Jan 16, 2008 4:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

    game on
    This is one of those bets I hope to lose.  (Unless it's by a point or something, then I'll be doubly pissed.)

    by marbotty on Jan 16, 2008 4:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

    It's a bet
    But since we're doing this at the end of August instead of at the end of the season, let's make the cutoff 300 AB.  And then if he doesn't have that many AB's, there's no bet regardless of what his OPS is.
    I probably disagree with you.

    by NYRoyal on Jan 16, 2008 4:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

    but look at his monthly splits...
    he strung together pretty long stretches of pretty good hitting, he'll never be an actual asset at the plate, but i think theres a chance he isnt a total disaster either

    by royalsreview on Jan 16, 2008 1:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

    and equally long stretches
    where he hit like a one-handed pitcher.  You cannot point to either and say that is the player's true talent level.

    But I certainly agree that he is not a total disaster.

    by Gopherballs on Jan 16, 2008 1:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

    What about the timing?
    His best two months of the season were July and September (although his worst month was August).  Maybe he's figure something out a little.  I don't expect a complete change in Tony, but I wouldn't be surprised if the bad months were quite so bad and the good months were a little more common.  Should anyone be surprised if he made a little more contact, showed a little more patience at the plate and hit with a little more power and had shorter cold streaks?
    I probably disagree with you.

    by NYRoyal on Jan 16, 2008 3:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

    And his absolute worst month was August
    Buck's best months were June and September and his worst were July and August.

    Gordon's best months were June and August and his worst were April and July.

    Grudzielanek's best month was July and his worst were May and September.

    See any signifance there, because I sure don't?

    Should anyone be surprised if he makes a little less contact, showed a little less patience at the plate and hit with a little less power and had longer cold streaks?

    by Gopherballs on Jan 16, 2008 4:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

    Answer
    Should anyone be surprised if he makes a little less contact, showed a little less patience at the plate and hit with a little less power and had longer cold streaks?

    Yes, I think that would definitely be a surprise.  How often do you think a full-time player in his first full season with an OPS of 640 follows that up in his second full season with a worse OPS?  By the way, I'm willing to make the same bet with you that I'm making with Marbotty.

    I probably disagree with you.

    by NYRoyal on Jan 16, 2008 4:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

    probably doesn't happen that often
    because 26 year olds who post a .640 OPS usually get cut first :)

    by marbotty on Jan 16, 2008 4:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

    That kind of OPS for a SS isn't uncommon
    Some SS's in that vicinity in 2007:
    Vizquel
    Pena
    Lugo
    Lopez
    Theriot
    Uribe

    2006:
    Barmes
    Cedeno
    Crosby
    Everett

    2005:
    Guzman
    Izturis
    J. Wilson

    There were more, but some were scrubs.  Clearly many were not.  I don't think the above guys are about to get cut.

    I probably disagree with you.

    by NYRoyal on Jan 16, 2008 4:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

    Tony Pena Jr.
    was tied for having the worst on-base % in all of MLB last year (284) and was was 6th from the bottom in OPS. He may improve (hard not to) but I just don't think his defense can offset the black hole he is at the plate. He was better than Nick Punto though. So he has that going for him. Which is nice.

    by djk royal on Jan 16, 2008 5:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

    As a newcomer I won't argue with you...
    But other than what you have stated why would you think that TPJ is terrible?  There is a lot to be said about defense.  Why is it that just because he isn't as good of a hitter as the average SS (which I'm just throwing out there assuming that he is) that he gets labeled as terrible?  I believe that his hitting will get better... lots better actually.  I'm not saying he is going to turn into a .300 hitter, hell even a .290 hitter.  But I think that if he corrects his hit for the fences mentality he will be a very good servicable SS.  At least till Moose gets up and assuming he can even play SS.
    Waiting for the Royals to appear on ESPN everynight!

    by MooseTacos25 on Jan 16, 2008 1:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

    his best months were July and Spt
    I find that encouraging. It wasnt like he got off to a Bo Hart like hot start, then sucked hard for the rest of the time, after he regressed and pitchers adjusted.

    There are flashes of competence here. Well, hitting .270 with no walks but some doubles, competence.

    I wanna know what love is, I want you to show me

    by LeoBloom on Jan 16, 2008 1:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

    fair point
    I should state that, offensively, he is terrible.  

    by marbotty on Jan 16, 2008 4:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

    the genius of the pena deal is this
    he's making the league minimum

    valuing defense is the new market advantage

    his offense just needs to be non-historically-horrible and he's a decent stopgap

    as soon as he's arb eligible, GMDM should go find another version of him

    I wanna know what love is, I want you to show me

    by LeoBloom on Jan 16, 2008 1:29 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

    Oh yeah
    The glove is real and sufficiently offsets his offensive shortcomings to make him a modest net value to the team.  As long as he is neither blocking anyone, costing anything, or declining much, he is a fine stopgap until a better option presents himself.  In the meantime, the money saved by not spending a several million on a retread veteran can go to more important things like signing international prospects, paying draft bonuses above slot or buying out college commitments, or investing more in scouting and player development.

    I would not expect too much improvement from him.  With his skillset, his offensive value is entirely wrapped up with hitting the ball for a decent average, running as fast as he can, and hoping the ball finds enough of a gap in the defense that he can get as many bases as possible.  Any improvement would derive from an increase in his batting average, because he is never going to walk much more than he does now or add any distance to his power (although the more gaps he finds, the more his SLG goes up).  

    The problem is, significantly improving his batting average will be difficult because, relatively speaking, he is not a very good contact hitter and strikes out about 15% of the time (which is consistent with his minor league numbers).  The protype for this type of player (think Rey Sanchez) should strike out at half that rate. If he can inch his line up to 285/300/375, we should be happy with that.

    by Gopherballs on Jan 16, 2008 2:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

    TPJ should be a Royal for a long time
    SS is still the most important position in the field.  His defense was excellent, and the fact that he is still learning means that 2008 could be the best display of defense we have seen at SS since Ozzie Smith.  His range is fantastic.  I do believe that he is a major reason that the entire Royals pitching staff improved this past year. A consistent SS with great range that did not extend an inning with stupid mistakes ala Berroa.

    He can hit .260 the rest of his career for all I care as long as he learns to bunt. He has good speed so he can be an asset on the bases, and learning to bunt could gain him a few hits every year.  The NL has to carry a pitcher in lineup, TPJ looks better than almost any pitcher I have seen.  We can carry him on the team (as long as he learns to bunt). And I have no doubt that his offense will improve after just a single season. I am not saying he will evolve into Jeter, just into a player that can move the runners when necessary.

    by eakers on Jan 16, 2008 2:45 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

    Agree on the defense
    but on offense, keep in mind that Pena is not a kid.  He is entering his age 27 season, so he is already at the end of the development curve.  His numbers in the majors (267/283/356) mirrored his AAA numbers as a 25 and 26 year old (261/295/352), so it looks like he has made whatever adjustments he needed to make from the minors to the majors.  For his skillset and tools, there really is not much room left for him to grow.

    by Gopherballs on Jan 16, 2008 3:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

    27 is the end of the developmental curve?
    I think that is an oversimplification of the developmental curve.  According to most research, a player's peak usually happens in the 26-29 years.  So it is a vast overstatement say that a 27 year old has hit his peak, period.

    One should also take into account that he didn't play baseball at all until he was 16, so I think his developmental curve is skewed off of normal.

    For his skillset and tools, there really is not much room left for him to grow.

    Actually, I think with is skillset, tools and the performance we saw in 2007, there is only room for improvement.

    I probably disagree with you.

    by NYRoyal on Jan 16, 2008 3:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

    27 is where the curve levels off
    According to the same research you cite, a position player's development generally levels off when he enters his peak years of 26-29 -- hence, the "curve" part of the term "development curve."  Thus, it is fair to say that a 27 year old would be at the end of the development curve, not the middle or the beginning.  Sure, the curve may continue up a bit during the peak, but the skills are close to a finished product.  And the guys with Pena's contact-and-run skillset usually peak earlier than, say, tall and thin power hitters.

    Pena's career lines bear this out, as he has basically repeated the same average/on-base performance since age 22 and the same power since age 23, improving just enough to post the same basic line against better competition at the next level.  

    249/274/311  Low A  age 21  
    259/301/328  High A  age 22
    255/278/366  AA age 23  
    261/295/352  AAA ages 24 & 25
    267/284/356  MLB age 26

    Go look at PECOTA projections for guys with similar age and size to Pena along with his track record of showing low isolated power/low BB%/high K%/high GB% skills, and find one that is optimistic for anything more than marginal improvement.  Again, everyone should be pretty happy if he can add 40 to 60 points to his OPS.  

    Where exactly in his skillset, tools, and performance lies the basis for an expectation of any significant improvement?  

    by Gopherballs on Jan 16, 2008 5:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

    That's not quite right
    27 is where the curve levels off
    According to the same research you cite, a position player's development generally levels off when he enters his peak years of 26-29 -- hence, the "curve" part of the term "development curve."  Thus, it is fair to say that a 27 year old would be at the end of the development curve, not the middle or the beginning.

    I think you are misinterpreting the research.  A player's peak -- his best year -- should come somewhere in ages 26 to 29.  But a player's best years, sometimes referred to as the "peak plateau" go from the late 20's to early 30's.  So, 26-29 is when a player will likely his his peak, but his best years will be from 26-33.

    So my only point is that one can't look at a 27 year old player and say "this is the peak; it's all down hill from ehre."  Some players peak at 26, while others peak at 29 or somewhere in between.  For all we know, TPJ may have peaked, or his peak may still be coming.  Again, considering the fact that he didn't start playing baseball until age 16, I think his developmental curve is skewed off normal.

    Again, everyone should be pretty happy if he can add 40 to 60 points to his OPS.

    I agree.

    Where exactly in his skillset, tools, and performance lies the basis for an expectation of any significant improvement?

    I expect some improvement.  Whether one should expect significant improvement depends on how one defines "significant."  My own amateur scouting analysis is that he can make good contact and has shown good line drive power when he does make contact.  With Hillman's increased emphasis on OBP, and with another year of experience and development, I would expect his plate discipline to improve at least somewhat.  So I would expect him to draw some more walks (probably not a lot more), make more contact and show some decent line drive power when he does make contact.  That is the skill set which should lead to some kind of improvement.

    I probably disagree with you.

    by NYRoyal on Jan 16, 2008 5:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

    I think we are talking about two different things
    "So my only point is that one can't look at a 27 year old player and say 'this is the peak; it's all down hill from ehre.'"

    This is neither what I said nor something with which I would disagree.

    Development curve refers to the period during which player's skills typically improve.  By age 27, a hitter is physically mature and, in terms of skillsets, essentially a finished product -- for example, a hitter's bat speed and plate coverage skills are not going to improve at age 27 or beyond.  

    The player's performance follows from his skillset -- namely, how well he uses his various skills in specific situations -- and will vary depending on how he balances those skills out, plus things outside his control like the quality of the pitcher and fielders, placement of the defense, etc.  The reason you often see the plateau during the peak years is that the player's skills are no longer improving to any significant degree but have not started to decline.

    by Gopherballs on Jan 17, 2008 12:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

    He started pretty old
    I'm not sure that the standard development curve can be used for all players. Pena was 16 before he even played organized ball, so that might mean that his development was a little stalled and we might see his prime years be more like 29-33 rather than 27-31. I could be wrong, in fact I probably am, but its worth noting.
    If I had a rocket ship, I'd never want to land.

    by dman126 on Jan 17, 2008 11:21 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

    Calling all statheads...
    Is there any statistical evidence of players "learning" plate discipline? Power numbers, I would guess, are highly predictive (unless PEDs are used)*. It seems like someone could, by altering their approach, greatly improve walk/strikeout ratio. And, damn, TPJ's value would skyrocket in that case.

    Anyone know of evidence showing that this can occur?

    *Really, seriously, not trying to start that argument again.

    by stuckinstl12 on Jan 16, 2008 4:04 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

    it definitely can happen
    I think Sammy Sosa's a pretty good example.  His OBP usually hovered about 50 points higher than his batting average, until around age 28, at which point it was regularly 80 to 100 points higher.   Rafael Palmeiro's another example -- at age 26 there seemed to be a huge increase in his OBP.  (I'm sure there's guys that aren't linked to PEDS; these two just came to mind.)

    A good part of that, I'm sure, was the result of IBBs, but I think one will typically find that a for several sluggers, their ability to be patient has a positive effect on their ability to hit for power.  

    If you look at guys who have had big jumps in their SLG%, there's usually a corresponding jump in their OBP.  I just posited that it was patience that drove slugging, but it could easily be the other way around.  The important thing is that it happens.  

    by marbotty on Jan 16, 2008 4:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

    to follow up on that thought
    I wasn't able to find any light-hitting guys that made the jump, they were all in the Bonds/Sosa/Edmunds/Giles vein.  

    That doesn't mean they aren't out there.  But I wonder if you need to have the ability to drive the ball in order to coax more walks?  

    I'll leave that for someone else to figure out.

    by marbotty on Jan 16, 2008 4:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

    It makes sense...
    that a slugger whose slg% jumps would see a corresponding bump in OBP because pitchers will be less likely to challenge them. In that sense I think you might be right that an ability to drive the ball results in more walks. Also, as a player without power potential TPJ will probably never be one of these guys. But judging from the comments on this site, his inordinately small number of walks is caused by a propensity to swing at HORRIBLE pitches. If pitchers never stop challenging him but he corrects the tendency to chase bad pitches, then there should be a noticeable improvement in OBP. Further, it's possible that despite his lack of power potential pitchers did not have to challenge him in '07 because they realized early on they could get him out with bad pitches. ...And perhaps I'm getting too optimistic about TPJ.

    by stuckinstl12 on Jan 16, 2008 4:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

    I think Penas problem
    is that stinking Pink bat!
    Sign Alex Gordon to a life time contract!!!

    by eboston on Jan 16, 2008 4:09 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

    Charlie Lau
    Reworked virtually the entire team's hitting approach, creating a team of line drive machines. If we could get a hitting coach who would convince TPJ to cut down on his swing and just meet the ball (and take a pitch once in a while), I have to believe he could be an acceptable 9th hitter on a good team. He's big enough that the gap power should remain intact.
    I'm not getting older....oh, wait, yes I am....and slower.... and weaker. God, this is great!

    by philofthenorth on Jan 16, 2008 5:12 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

    Mike Barnett is definately
    no Charlie Lau. I learned how to hit from a Charlie Lau video called "The Art of hitting .300" when I was a kid. My dad bought it for me and it helped a lot. Maybe I should try to dig through my VHS tapes and send it to the K.

    by royaldaddy on Jan 16, 2008 7:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

    It's telling
    that the boys are willing to bet based on a minimum of 350 ABs, and neither bothered to point out that perhaps it should be 350 PAs, not ABs.

    I think we all know why  :  )

    by loyal2s dad on Jan 16, 2008 5:58 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

    Pena's BABIP
    Some quick math shows Pena hit around 312 on balls in play; I don't know what his line drive percentage was.

    Intuitively, I would say he had relatively normal luck on balls in play, so any improvement will most likely occur due to improved plate discipline.

    Can he improve it? Well, sure - there's almost no place to go but up when you post 10 BB vs 78 Ks in over 500 PAs.

    Could he get worse? Sure, but perhaps, if he does, it would be from suffering bad luck on balls in play more than actually getting worse with his plate discipline.

    Intuitively, I think it would be fairly difficult to improve his walk total SIGNIFICANTLY, absent at least a modicum of power improvement. Obviously, he could improve it SOME, regardless of his slugging percentage.

    Personally, the most exciting development might be if he were under 350 ABs on Sept 1st, due to Callaspo wrenching the job from him by hitting out of his mind, which is not completely out of the question, is it?

    by loyal2s dad on Jan 16, 2008 6:07 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

    18.8% LD%
    so his actual 312 BABIP was right in line with his expected BABIP (xBABIP = LD% + 120) of 308.

    by Gopherballs on Jan 16, 2008 6:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

    Juiced up Team
    Great article on read on all time best juicers.  Would make for a sick team!  

    http://mlbfleecefactor.com/2008/01/16/all-time-teams-the-all-juiced-team/

    by ET90210 on Jan 17, 2008 12:41 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

    Callapso
    One key to whether the Royals break .500 this year may be whether Pena does his .275/.300/.375 thing over 600 PAs or 350. He's the kind of player that has value because of his defensive prowess, but whose value is maximized when an intelligent manager pinch hits for him liberally and rests him when we have a strikeout pitcher on the mound.

    What a breath of fresh air it is to actually contemplate the possibility of the Royals being managed well!

    by Melchizedek on Jan 17, 2008 8:32 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

    I have been since May 2005
    I think we'll quickly learn that Bell wasn't what was wrong with the Royals.

    by jbrocato on Jan 18, 2008 6:21 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

    Nobody's claiming that Bell was the sole problem,
    just one of many--albeit probably a fairly small one.
    Royals, NBA, Golden Hurricane, Hawkeyes, Chiefs, and KU basketball, in that order.

    by Rowyal on Jan 18, 2008 9:51 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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