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Bannister on MLBTR

Everyone's favorite mid-rotation starter, Brian Bannister, has made his internet presence felt again, this time at MLBTR.

Part 1
Part 2

Here's part of his response to a question about common misunderstandings of the game:

Secondly, whether you like it or not, baseball is a game of randomness. We play outdoors (mostly) in changing elements and field dimensions, and each pitch results in a series of events that can go in either teams favor. One thing that I have have come to accept is that just because I train hard physically, I practice perfectly, I prepare diligently, and execute a pitch exactly as I wanted, it can still result in a home run. In golf, if you analyze all the variables correctly (lie, distance, slope, wind, etc.) and execute your swing perfectly, it will result in a great shot. Not so for a pitcher or a hitter. A hitter can swing the bat perfectly and it will result in an out more than six times out of ten. Therefore, as a pitcher, I study and play to put the percentages in my favor more than anything because I know that I can't control the outcome in a single game or series of games, but over the course of a season or a career I will be better than average.

Love. This. Guy.

----

Thanks for the heads up, RoyalsFaninMarinerTown.

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Mid-rotation
No real chance that he is/could be a #2 starter?  Or does that count as mid-rotation?
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Jan 27, 2008 9:52 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Bah,
he could be some years, to the extent that the "#2" label means anything.
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.

by NHZ on Jan 27, 2008 9:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

My favorite part
"So we're really working on accentuating my strikeout pitches, and when I get to two strikes, really putting guys away," he said. "My primary goal is to develop strong pitches with two strikes that might have a little sharper break or a little more aggressiveness in my typical contact pitches and that might help me for next year."

This brings up an interesting point.  Both those who are bullish and those who are bearish on Bannister base their opinions on him based on one season's worth of pitching.  What a player does in his rookie season often isn't what you see from a player for the rest of his career.  We really don't know if he'll always be a low-K pitcher or if he'll do so well at limiting hits, extra base hits and walks.  Bannister is a work in progress.

I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Jan 27, 2008 9:58 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Bannister pitched 417 innings in the minors
so it is not quite accurate to say that everyone's opinion is based on only one season.  His minor league numbers suggest good news on the potential for bumping up his K rate a little bit and inducing a few more groundballs, neutral on his walk rate, and bad news for maintaining the extremely low BABIP (in the minors, his last three years were .326 BABIP, .306 BABIP, and .313 BABIP).  

He turns 27 next month, so while some further refinement should be expected, it is not like he is going to add 3-4 MPH to his fastball.

by Gopherballs on Jan 28, 2008 2:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Thankfully
Thankfully, pitching is about much, much more than fastball velocity.  Bannister's interview discusses a great deal about what pitching is about, in addition to velocity.  It's a good read.

The sabermetric community has done a great job of dissecting pitching and understanding it in a much deeper way through the use of a variety of statistical measures.  However, we should not fall into the trap of assuming that we've figured everything out.  We shouldn't think for a second that we know everything about a pitcher's effect on BABIP.  There is much going on there that we really don't know about.

I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Jan 28, 2008 2:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

One of the things that the sabermetric community
has figured out is that a player's minor league performance is a great predictive tool in forecasting a player's major league performance.  Pitchers who post low translated strikeout rates in the minors do not go onto to post high strikeout rates in the majors.

No one is saying that everything has been figured out, but that does not invalidate the great many things that have been figured out.

by Gopherballs on Jan 28, 2008 3:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Figured out
I don't think I'm arguing against anything that has been "figured out."  I'm pointing to an area -- DIPS and the relationship between a pitcher and BABIP -- which is still evolving and where the limitations of what we know are pretty obvious.

I'm also not arguing that Bannister is always going to have a BABIP near what it was in 2007, nor that he's going to suddenly start striking out a ton of batters.  But I also think it is folly to completly write off Bannister's 2007 season as a "DIPS induced fluke."

PECOTA is going to look at him and his stats kick out a projection probably in the 4.80 ERA range.  I'd bet any amount of money that he'll do better than that.  I'd bet a large sum of money that he's under 4.50.  With every word of his I read, my estimation of him is increasing.  I was thinking 4.25 earlier.  I might be revising that number downward.  PECOTA is a good projection system.  For my money, it's the best around.  But it only counts what can be counted, and that leaves a lot out, particularly in the case of a guy like Bannister.

I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Jan 28, 2008 3:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Mid-rotation starter?
Why should we blindly assume that Bannister is no better than a mid-rotation starter?  Maybe I'm over-analyzing the point.  I would definitely call him more of an unknown than some mid-rotation starter.
Visit my Royals blog: The Royal Treatment!

by Royals Nation on Jan 27, 2008 10:22 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Yes
"Mid-rotation starter" essentially means "merely average starter" and I think it is too soon to relegate Bannister to that level, especially when his pitching so far in the majors has been better than that.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Jan 27, 2008 10:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

mid-rotation starter
  1. I really didn't mean anything evaluative or judgmental by it. More just a statement of what he is right now, like saying he's right-handed. For whatever reason it just seemed to make the sentence flow better.
  2. Considering people didn't think he could be a #5 as recently as a year ago, I don't think saying he's mid-rotation is really a slam.
  3. Even then, what is a mid-rotation starter anyway? I honestly don't even know. Gil Meche comes to mind. In my head there's really #1s and #5s and then a bunch of dudes.
anyway...

by royalsreview on Jan 28, 2008 12:21 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

It has meaning
There are many statistical measures to describe a #1, #2, #3 starter and so on.  I've seen the ERA breakdown for average AL starters in the various rotation spots before and I believe JQ posted one after the Tomko signing.  Without the numbers handy, #1 starters are from the mid-3's down, #2 starters are from the high 3's to low 4's, #3 starters are around the mid 4's, #4 starters are from the high 4's to low 5's and #5 starters are from the low 5's up.  Based on that statistical measure, I see Bannister being a pitcher in the #2-3 range.  I think it is too early to write him off as merely average, which is essentially what "mid-rotation starter" means.  #3 starters are, statistically, approximately average starting pitchers.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Jan 28, 2008 12:40 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

ok
but again, "mid-rotation" could mean "#3" or "2-4" I would say...

and I kinda agree with Flint's point that average is no insult

by royalsreview on Jan 28, 2008 2:08 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ok
Given that Bannister hasn't proven himself one way or another, 2-4 is fair.  With regard to the second point, average is an insult if the player is better than average.  I guess we don't know if he's just average yet...and I suppose that was my point.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Jan 28, 2008 4:10 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Brian Bannister is my new favorite Royal
"I'm tired of all these stupid a$$ questions every day. Why the f**k would I hit Brett for Miller?" The rest is history.

by DC Royal on Jan 28, 2008 10:10 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Refreshing
to hear how he approaches the game.

While I think his best chance at improvement lies with his K rate, it's still encouraging to think that this guy will be at least doing everything in his power to maximize his potential. Other players may say and try the same, but without a true understanding of the role that luck can play in the game, they may not be able to get there.

If anybody has a chance to perform above his God-given talent, it might be a guy like this.

by loyal2s dad on Jan 28, 2008 12:55 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Bannister on BABIP
Man, this guy is impressive:

MLBTR: Are you familiar with the Batting Average on Balls In Play (BABIP) stat?  It's been suggested that the percentage of batted balls that drop in for hits may be largely out of a pitcher's control.  What are your thoughts on that?

Bannister: I think a lot of fans underestimate how much time I spend working with statistics to improve my performance on the field. For those that don't know, the typical BABIP for starting pitchers in Major League Baseball is around .300 give or take a few points. The common (and valid) argument is that over the course of a pitcher's career, he can not control his BABIP from year-to-year (because it is random), but over a period of time it will settle into the median range of roughly .300 (the peak of the bell curve). Therefore, pitchers that have a BABIP of under .300 are due to regress in subsequent years and pitchers with a BABIP above .300 should see some improvement (assuming they are a Major League
Average pitcher).

Because I don't have enough of a sample size yet (service time), I don't claim to be able to beat the .300 average year in and year out at the Major League level. However, I also don't feel that every pitcher is hopelessly bound to that .300 number for his career if he takes some steps to improve his odds - which is what pitching is all about.

One thing that I work a lot with, and that is not factored into common statistical analysis, is what counts a pitcher pitches in most often - regardless of what type of "stuff" he has. Most stats only measure results, not the situations in which those results occurred. In the common box score, an RBI is an RBI, but it doesn't show the count, number of outs, and number of runners on base when it occurred. For me, the area where pitchers have the most opportunity to improve or be better than average is in their count leverage.

Let me give the fans and young pitchers out there one example of a way that I try to improve my performance, this time with regards to BABIP.

Question to myself: Does a hitter have the same BABIP in a 2-1 count that he does in an 0-2, 1-2, or 2-2 count? How does his batting average and OBP/SLG/OPS differ when he has two strikes on him vs zero or one strike?

These are the type of questions that I will come up with and employ in my starts to see if I can improve my outings. For example, here are my career numbers in the counts mentioned above:

2-1: .380 (19/50)
1-2: .196 (20/102)
2-2: .171 (18/105)
0-2: .057 (3/53)

It is obvious that hitters, even at the Major League level, do not perform as well when the count is in the pitcher's favor, and vice-versa. This is because with two strikes, a hitter HAS to swing at a pitch in the strike zone or he is out, and he must also make a split-second decision on whether a borderline pitch is a strike or not, reducing his ability to put a good swing on the ball. What this does is take away a hitter's choice. If I throw a curveball with two strikes, the hitter has to swing if the pitch is in the strike zone, whether he is good at hitting a curveball or not. He also does not have a choice on
location. We are all familiar with Ted Williams' famous strike zone averages at the Baseball Hall of Fame. It is well-known that a pitch knee-high on the outside corner will not have the same batting average or OBP/SLG/OPS as one waist-high right down the middle. Here is a comparison of the batting averages and slugging percentage on my fastball vs. my curveball:

Fastball: .246/.404
Curveball: .184/.265

The important thing to note is that, with two strikes, if I throw a curveball for a strike, the hitter has to swing at it (and I like those numbers). How does a pitcher use this to his advantage? By throwing
strikes and keeping the advantage on his side as often as possible. It seems like such a simple solution, yet so much more emphasis is placed on "stuff" nowadays and this is often not reinforced. When a pitcher who has great "stuff" employs this line of thinking, his numbers will improve to an even greater degree.

So, to finally answer the question about BABIP, if we look at the numbers above, how can a Major League pitcher try and beat the .300 BABIP average? By pitching in 0-2, 1-2, & 2-2 counts more often than the historical averages of pitchers in the Major Leagues. Until a pitcher reaches two strikes, he has no historical statistical advantage over the hitter. In fact, my batting averages against in 0-1, 1-0, & 1-1 counts are .297/.295/.311 respectively, very close to the roughly .300 average.

My explanation for why I have beat the average so far is that in my career I have been able to get a Major League hitter to put the ball in play in a 1-2 or 0-2 count 155 times, and in a 2-0 or 2-1 count 78 times. That's twice as often in my favor, & I'll take those odds.

His analysis makes the "he had a low BABIP so he'll regress significantly" analysis look pretty simple minded.

I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Jan 28, 2008 1:52 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

He's super impressive
"I'm tired of all these stupid a$$ questions every day. Why the f**k would I hit Brett for Miller?" The rest is history.

by DC Royal on Jan 28, 2008 2:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

addendum
This may be the first player in the history of the MLB who actually earns the accolade "knows how to win."

by marbotty on Jan 28, 2008 2:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and who can spell BABIP
Success is counted sweetest by those who ne'er succeed. - Emily Dickinson

by buddyball on Jan 28, 2008 2:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The problem is, as Bannister acknowledges,
the very large role luck still plays into a whether a particular pitch goes for a hit.  Everyone who has researched the issue has reached the same conclusion that luck plays a large part in determining a pitcher's BABIP - the debate has been over to what extent a pitcher can influence his BABIP and which categories of pitchers have been able to demonstrate this ability.

Even DIPS critics like Tom Tippett agree:

  1.  The amount of control is relatively small (maxing out at about .020-.025 for the non-knucklers);
  2.  Unusually good or bad in-play hit rates are not likely to be repeated the next year
  3.  A pitcher's ability to control his BABIP is weaker than his ability to control walks and strikeouts (thus, it is better to take the pitcher with the good K and BB rates than the pitcher with the good BABIP);
  4.  Relatively few pitchers have shown this ability, and they generally fit certain categories (like knuckleballers, high strikeout power pitchers, and extreme command/control pitchers, with bonus points for pitching left-handed).  
For example, take Greg Maddux and Jamie Moyer, two of the poster children for pitchers who have consistently posted low BABIP.  Maddux's career BABIP is .289 - only .021 below an average BABIP of .310.  Similarly, Moyer's career BABIP is .291.  Thus, Bannister's 2007 BABIP of .266 appears significantly low even assuming he is one of the pitchers who can influence BABIP.

The other concerns for Bannister are that he does not really fit any of the categories of pitchers who have shown an ability to post low BABIP and that he has not shown ability to post low BABIP prior to 2007 (as noted above, his BABIP his last years in the minors were .326 BABIP, .306 BABIP, and .313 BABIP - nowhere near .266).

by Gopherballs on Jan 28, 2008 3:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I generally agree with this
I'm not a DIPS critic.  I'm just pointing out that we don't know everything yet about the degree to which pitchers can affect BABIP and which pitchers can do so.

With regard to these categories of pitchers, those are the only categories which we have yet been able to identify as being able to fairly consistently have low BABIP.  Just because those are the only groups which have been indentified, doesn't mean they are the only groups that exist.

I have posited a theory that pitchers with excellent pitch selection/strategy skills may be a kind of pitcher which can maintain a low BABIP.  The problem is that this is extremely difficult to test.  How does one identify pitchers who share that characteristic?  This points to the limitations of research on DIPS and BABIP.  Those groups which have been identified (knuckleballers, extreme groundball pitchers, etc.) are easily identifiable and quantifiable.  Other characteristics are not so easily identified and quantified.

My point, again, is that we can't say with confidence that pitchers of type A, B, and C can affect their BABIP, but for everyone else it is just luck.  I think it is highly likely that for most pitchers, it is luck.  But for which pitchers is it not luck?  And to what degree?

I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Jan 28, 2008 3:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The pitchers with low BABIP
are easy enough to identify, and while most fall into the previously identified categories, there are still going to be a few exceptions.

But the bigger point here (at least regarding what to expect from Bannister going forward) is that there is pretty good data that even if Bannister is one of the exceptions, his BABIP will normalize around .290, which would be a pretty big regression from his 2007.

Jon Garland might be a good comp for Bannister as a nominal flyball pitcher who has generally posted low BABIP while posting similar K and BB rates but without fitting any of the identified categories.  His last four years (and career line) are:  

2004  4.89 ERA, 4.7 K/9, 3.2 BB/9, .275 BABIP
2005  3.50 ERA, 4.7 K/9, 1.9 BB/9, .268 BABIP
2006  4.51 ERA, 4.8 K/9, 1.8 BB/9, .313 BABIP
2007  4.23 ERA, 4.3 K/9, 2.5 BB/9, .290 BABIP

Career 4.41 ERA, 4.8 K/9, 3.0 BB/9, .285 BABIP

Garland's 2005 looks an awful like Bannister's 2007, so even though Garland looks like he might be one of the guys with an ability to limit his BABIP, it still bounces around a lot and with varying effects on his overall performance.

by Gopherballs on Jan 28, 2008 3:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't disagree
That is all true enough as far as it goes.  But, given that Bannister has had one MLB season, I think his K/9 can increase and his BB/9 can decrease.  And he has a thoughtful, intelligent approach that Garland does not have.  I've read interviews with Garland he's he's dumb as a post.  He rares back and throws whatever the catcher asks for.  He doesn't have the brain power to win a game of Stratego.  Again, a variable which cannot be quantified is important here.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Jan 28, 2008 5:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

you gotta like
someone who obviously thinks alot about his craft.  You just hope that he doesn't overanalyze things when he is on the mound.  I suspect from last year (low n) he won't.  I smell future pitching coach.
Success is counted sweetest by those who ne'er succeed. - Emily Dickinson

by buddyball on Jan 28, 2008 2:32 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Great to have him on the team
If nothing more than a wise pitching instructor. Which I hope is what he becomes in Kansas City once his playing days are over. Heck, he could probably be a hitting instructor or a manager as well.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Jan 28, 2008 2:59 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I hope
I hope he is sharing his vast knowledge of pitching with other Royals pitchers.  Greinke has tremendous stuff, so he's not the same kind of pitcher that Bannister is, but he could certainly benefit from Bannister's wisdom.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Jan 28, 2008 3:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm imagining
Brian Bannister having a conversation with Buddy Bell, and Buddy's head exploding.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Jan 28, 2008 3:43 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

There is a reason why...
all the ladies want to slide down the Bannister

by PopeSoria on Jan 28, 2008 6:51 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Part 3
Part 3 is now up at MLBTR.

by Melchizedek on Jan 29, 2008 9:50 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

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