Bannister on MLBTR
Everyone's favorite mid-rotation starter, Brian Bannister, has made his internet presence felt again, this time at MLBTR.
Here's part of his response to a question about common misunderstandings of the game:
Love. This. Guy.
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Thanks for the heads up, RoyalsFaninMarinerTown.
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34 comments
Comments
Mid-rotation
by NYRoyal on Jan 27, 2008 9:52 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
My favorite part
This brings up an interesting point. Both those who are bullish and those who are bearish on Bannister base their opinions on him based on one season's worth of pitching. What a player does in his rookie season often isn't what you see from a player for the rest of his career. We really don't know if he'll always be a low-K pitcher or if he'll do so well at limiting hits, extra base hits and walks. Bannister is a work in progress.
by NYRoyal on Jan 27, 2008 9:58 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Bannister pitched 417 innings in the minors
He turns 27 next month, so while some further refinement should be expected, it is not like he is going to add 3-4 MPH to his fastball.
by Gopherballs on Jan 28, 2008 2:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thankfully
The sabermetric community has done a great job of dissecting pitching and understanding it in a much deeper way through the use of a variety of statistical measures. However, we should not fall into the trap of assuming that we've figured everything out. We shouldn't think for a second that we know everything about a pitcher's effect on BABIP. There is much going on there that we really don't know about.
by NYRoyal on Jan 28, 2008 2:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
One of the things that the sabermetric community
No one is saying that everything has been figured out, but that does not invalidate the great many things that have been figured out.
by Gopherballs on Jan 28, 2008 3:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Figured out
I'm also not arguing that Bannister is always going to have a BABIP near what it was in 2007, nor that he's going to suddenly start striking out a ton of batters. But I also think it is folly to completly write off Bannister's 2007 season as a "DIPS induced fluke."
PECOTA is going to look at him and his stats kick out a projection probably in the 4.80 ERA range. I'd bet any amount of money that he'll do better than that. I'd bet a large sum of money that he's under 4.50. With every word of his I read, my estimation of him is increasing. I was thinking 4.25 earlier. I might be revising that number downward. PECOTA is a good projection system. For my money, it's the best around. But it only counts what can be counted, and that leaves a lot out, particularly in the case of a guy like Bannister.
by NYRoyal on Jan 28, 2008 3:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Mid-rotation starter?
by Royals Nation on Jan 27, 2008 10:22 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Yes
by NYRoyal on Jan 27, 2008 10:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
mid-rotation starter
- I really didn't mean anything evaluative or judgmental by it. More just a statement of what he is right now, like saying he's right-handed. For whatever reason it just seemed to make the sentence flow better.
- Considering people didn't think he could be a #5 as recently as a year ago, I don't think saying he's mid-rotation is really a slam.
- Even then, what is a mid-rotation starter anyway? I honestly don't even know. Gil Meche comes to mind. In my head there's really #1s and #5s and then a bunch of dudes.
by royalsreview on Jan 28, 2008 12:21 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
It has meaning
by NYRoyal on Jan 28, 2008 12:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ok
and I kinda agree with Flint's point that average is no insult
by royalsreview on Jan 28, 2008 2:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ok
by NYRoyal on Jan 28, 2008 4:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Brian Bannister is my new favorite Royal
by DC Royal on Jan 28, 2008 10:10 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Refreshing
While I think his best chance at improvement lies with his K rate, it's still encouraging to think that this guy will be at least doing everything in his power to maximize his potential. Other players may say and try the same, but without a true understanding of the role that luck can play in the game, they may not be able to get there.
If anybody has a chance to perform above his God-given talent, it might be a guy like this.
by loyal2s dad on Jan 28, 2008 12:55 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Bannister on BABIP
MLBTR: Are you familiar with the Batting Average on Balls In Play (BABIP) stat? It's been suggested that the percentage of batted balls that drop in for hits may be largely out of a pitcher's control. What are your thoughts on that?
Bannister: I think a lot of fans underestimate how much time I spend working with statistics to improve my performance on the field. For those that don't know, the typical BABIP for starting pitchers in Major League Baseball is around .300 give or take a few points. The common (and valid) argument is that over the course of a pitcher's career, he can not control his BABIP from year-to-year (because it is random), but over a period of time it will settle into the median range of roughly .300 (the peak of the bell curve). Therefore, pitchers that have a BABIP of under .300 are due to regress in subsequent years and pitchers with a BABIP above .300 should see some improvement (assuming they are a Major League
Average pitcher).
Because I don't have enough of a sample size yet (service time), I don't claim to be able to beat the .300 average year in and year out at the Major League level. However, I also don't feel that every pitcher is hopelessly bound to that .300 number for his career if he takes some steps to improve his odds - which is what pitching is all about.
One thing that I work a lot with, and that is not factored into common statistical analysis, is what counts a pitcher pitches in most often - regardless of what type of "stuff" he has. Most stats only measure results, not the situations in which those results occurred. In the common box score, an RBI is an RBI, but it doesn't show the count, number of outs, and number of runners on base when it occurred. For me, the area where pitchers have the most opportunity to improve or be better than average is in their count leverage.
Let me give the fans and young pitchers out there one example of a way that I try to improve my performance, this time with regards to BABIP.
Question to myself: Does a hitter have the same BABIP in a 2-1 count that he does in an 0-2, 1-2, or 2-2 count? How does his batting average and OBP/SLG/OPS differ when he has two strikes on him vs zero or one strike?
These are the type of questions that I will come up with and employ in my starts to see if I can improve my outings. For example, here are my career numbers in the counts mentioned above:
2-1: .380 (19/50)
1-2: .196 (20/102)
2-2: .171 (18/105)
0-2: .057 (3/53)
It is obvious that hitters, even at the Major League level, do not perform as well when the count is in the pitcher's favor, and vice-versa. This is because with two strikes, a hitter HAS to swing at a pitch in the strike zone or he is out, and he must also make a split-second decision on whether a borderline pitch is a strike or not, reducing his ability to put a good swing on the ball. What this does is take away a hitter's choice. If I throw a curveball with two strikes, the hitter has to swing if the pitch is in the strike zone, whether he is good at hitting a curveball or not. He also does not have a choice on
location. We are all familiar with Ted Williams' famous strike zone averages at the Baseball Hall of Fame. It is well-known that a pitch knee-high on the outside corner will not have the same batting average or OBP/SLG/OPS as one waist-high right down the middle. Here is a comparison of the batting averages and slugging percentage on my fastball vs. my curveball:
Fastball: .246/.404
Curveball: .184/.265
The important thing to note is that, with two strikes, if I throw a curveball for a strike, the hitter has to swing at it (and I like those numbers). How does a pitcher use this to his advantage? By throwing
strikes and keeping the advantage on his side as often as possible. It seems like such a simple solution, yet so much more emphasis is placed on "stuff" nowadays and this is often not reinforced. When a pitcher who has great "stuff" employs this line of thinking, his numbers will improve to an even greater degree.
So, to finally answer the question about BABIP, if we look at the numbers above, how can a Major League pitcher try and beat the .300 BABIP average? By pitching in 0-2, 1-2, & 2-2 counts more often than the historical averages of pitchers in the Major Leagues. Until a pitcher reaches two strikes, he has no historical statistical advantage over the hitter. In fact, my batting averages against in 0-1, 1-0, & 1-1 counts are .297/.295/.311 respectively, very close to the roughly .300 average.
My explanation for why I have beat the average so far is that in my career I have been able to get a Major League hitter to put the ball in play in a 1-2 or 0-2 count 155 times, and in a 2-0 or 2-1 count 78 times. That's twice as often in my favor, & I'll take those odds.
His analysis makes the "he had a low BABIP so he'll regress significantly" analysis look pretty simple minded.
by NYRoyal on Jan 28, 2008 1:52 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
He's super impressive
by DC Royal on Jan 28, 2008 2:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
addendum
by marbotty on Jan 28, 2008 2:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and who can spell BABIP
by buddyball on Jan 28, 2008 2:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The problem is, as Bannister acknowledges,
Even DIPS critics like Tom Tippett agree:
- The amount of control is relatively small (maxing out at about .020-.025 for the non-knucklers);
- Unusually good or bad in-play hit rates are not likely to be repeated the next year
- A pitcher's ability to control his BABIP is weaker than his ability to control walks and strikeouts (thus, it is better to take the pitcher with the good K and BB rates than the pitcher with the good BABIP);
- Relatively few pitchers have shown this ability, and they generally fit certain categories (like knuckleballers, high strikeout power pitchers, and extreme command/control pitchers, with bonus points for pitching left-handed).
The other concerns for Bannister are that he does not really fit any of the categories of pitchers who have shown an ability to post low BABIP and that he has not shown ability to post low BABIP prior to 2007 (as noted above, his BABIP his last years in the minors were .326 BABIP, .306 BABIP, and .313 BABIP - nowhere near .266).
by Gopherballs on Jan 28, 2008 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I generally agree with this
With regard to these categories of pitchers, those are the only categories which we have yet been able to identify as being able to fairly consistently have low BABIP. Just because those are the only groups which have been indentified, doesn't mean they are the only groups that exist.
I have posited a theory that pitchers with excellent pitch selection/strategy skills may be a kind of pitcher which can maintain a low BABIP. The problem is that this is extremely difficult to test. How does one identify pitchers who share that characteristic? This points to the limitations of research on DIPS and BABIP. Those groups which have been identified (knuckleballers, extreme groundball pitchers, etc.) are easily identifiable and quantifiable. Other characteristics are not so easily identified and quantified.
My point, again, is that we can't say with confidence that pitchers of type A, B, and C can affect their BABIP, but for everyone else it is just luck. I think it is highly likely that for most pitchers, it is luck. But for which pitchers is it not luck? And to what degree?
by NYRoyal on Jan 28, 2008 3:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The pitchers with low BABIP
But the bigger point here (at least regarding what to expect from Bannister going forward) is that there is pretty good data that even if Bannister is one of the exceptions, his BABIP will normalize around .290, which would be a pretty big regression from his 2007.
Jon Garland might be a good comp for Bannister as a nominal flyball pitcher who has generally posted low BABIP while posting similar K and BB rates but without fitting any of the identified categories. His last four years (and career line) are:
2004 4.89 ERA, 4.7 K/9, 3.2 BB/9, .275 BABIP
2005 3.50 ERA, 4.7 K/9, 1.9 BB/9, .268 BABIP
2006 4.51 ERA, 4.8 K/9, 1.8 BB/9, .313 BABIP
2007 4.23 ERA, 4.3 K/9, 2.5 BB/9, .290 BABIP
Career 4.41 ERA, 4.8 K/9, 3.0 BB/9, .285 BABIP
Garland's 2005 looks an awful like Bannister's 2007, so even though Garland looks like he might be one of the guys with an ability to limit his BABIP, it still bounces around a lot and with varying effects on his overall performance.
by Gopherballs on Jan 28, 2008 3:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't disagree
by NYRoyal on Jan 28, 2008 5:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you gotta like
by buddyball on Jan 28, 2008 2:32 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Great to have him on the team
by RoyalsRetro on Jan 28, 2008 2:59 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I hope
by NYRoyal on Jan 28, 2008 3:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm imagining
by RoyalsRetro on Jan 28, 2008 3:43 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
There is a reason why...
by PopeSoria on Jan 28, 2008 6:51 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
That definitely trumps my
by raefzilla on Jan 29, 2008 6:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

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