Dayton Moore's Optimistic Projection
In a recent radio interview, Dayton Moore said that, despite the Royals' strong September, he was disappointed in the season, as he had the team projected to win 78-82 games. Maybe he is just putting on a tough face to show what a "winner" he is and what high expectations he has for the team, I dunno. I can only assume he was serious. I don’t know what other people had the team projected to do, but, with the benefit of hindsight, well...
The importance of a general manager getting a correct read on his team’s true talent level was vividly illustrated in Seattle this year, where disastrous moves were made based on the teams miraculous 2007 in which the Mariners overshot their Pythag by a large margin. Predictably, they suffered a massive collapse this year (exacerbated by the player they traded most of their best young talent for -- Eric Bedard -- getting hurt early in the season). I don't think that Dayton Moore is the next Bill Bavasi (Xenu have mercy on us all if that is the case). However, given Dayton's projection for this season, this is a fair way to get an evaluation of part of his skills.

Dayton Moore then...
...Dayton Moore now. Look at the hair. Does GMing the Royals really age a person that much?
I think Dayton Moore has done a good job overall. That said, I don’t think anyone here thinks he’s above criticism. Even the best GMs make mistakes -- think of Billy Beane and Terence Long, or Theo Epstein and Julio Lugo.
I assume that Dayton Moore thinks of winning projections in terms of the run differential as projected by Bill James’ Pythagorean Formula for team wins. The Royals, of course, overshot their Pythag by three wins. Some will argue that this isn’t necessarily luck because teams with strong bullpens (and with Soria, Ramirez, and Nunez leading the way, the Royals did have a good bullpen in 2008) often overshoot their Pythagorean projection. I don’t know about the bullpen stuff. I can only assume there is something to it because people who know more about this stuff than I do say that it is so. However, for the sake of this little excursion, I’m going to leave it aside in favor of assume that the Royals a 73-win team this season, for three reasons:
- Many attempts to show how teams can 'outsmart' Pythagoras are often a bit suspect.
- To the extent that the "strong bullpens = better than Pythag record" is true, I still think it’s hard to see how that would work into a specific projection of how a precise number of wins the team would get over its projection.
- The bullpen pitchers' performances are already taken into account when figuring out the projection, so drawing on the bullpen performance again to modify the projection seems like "double dipping."
Again, my purpose isn't to debate the "Pythag and bullpens" issue. Rather, I'm simply saying that I'm not sure how to account for it either way, so I'm not going to deal with it, here.
Below, I've listed a few areas in which I think Dayton Moore may have been overly positive (given the end result) about going into this season. I will admit this involves a bit of guesswork as to how Moore projected certain players to perform, and I've tried to be careful in my deductions. Note also that I've left out the Butler and Gordon issues, since it's not clear to me what Moore (as opposed to the fans) expected of them this year. Sometimes, Billy seemed to be in the organizational doghouse (which totally doesn't exist!!!11). I also don't think Gordon drastically underperformed realistic expectations.
I’m not presenting this is an exhaustive list of good and bad decisions and projections by Moore, but I do think it points to some things that he may have thought or expected to be better this year than they actually were. I will then say whether they were foreseeable or not before the season -- that’s the more evaluative part of my own process, and the most subject to debate.
[Update: This wasn't very clear when I originally published this, probably because I didn't have it in my mind. I didn't really have a win total in mind before the season, so it's quite easy for me to sit here and say "so-and-so made a mistake." I acknowledge the time-based cherry-picking. My point is to see what projections went wrong, yes, but more obviously, to sort out which ones should have been expected to go wrong (less hindisight necessary) and which ones Moore couldn't be expected to see, and thus shouldn't count as much "against" him.]
1) The (un?)remarkable declines of Tony Pena, Jr. and Ross Gload. This is certainly a shocker. This is a tough one to judge. Could Moore have seen it coming? As for TPJ, he did have a year last year in which his BABIP matched up with his performance, which wasn’t great, but, given his defense, was defensible as a stopgap, at the very least. On the other hand, his OPS last year (.640) was higher than his career OPS in the minors. and higher than all but one year he had in the minors (2004 in AA -- .644), so I’d say that the offensive collapse was at least a bit foreseeable (although he had extremely bad luck with BABIP this season).
Ross Gload is a bit more difficult to figure out. He was a poor offensive first baseman before this year, and given his skills, I think it’s unlikely that he culd be expected get any better, and pretty likely that he’d collapse. As for his defense, well, he wasn’t one of the top defenders at his position last year, despite Hillman and Moore constantly swooning over his alleged Gold Glove in the press. So I’m not sure what to make of this. I'm going to say this is slightly forseeable.
Evaluation: Moore might be criticized for making not replacing these guys earlier in the season, but we’re talking about pre-season projections here, so I think that this is only a bit foreseeable. So this is an in-between case. It's not clear what he could have done with TPJ (no one saw Aviles coming, at least before the season started, and not this good). He seems to have had a high enough opinion of Gload to give the Man with the Gloaden Glove a two-year extension.
[Update: The stuff about Gload and TPJ was the stuff I wish I'd written better the first time. Along with Bannister, these were clearly the individual players hurting the Royals the most. I should have made it more clear that the impact of their performances were as bad or worse than anything else. Both these players, for example, hurt the team when they started far more than Jose Guillen. However, since I assume that Moore had lower expectations, and that they weren't that good in the first place, and that both suffered from bad luck regarding BABIP, that the amount of drop-off these two suffered vis-vis Moore's reasonable expectations weren't as high.]
2) The implosion of Brian Bannister. No use beating this into the ground. As is well-known, everyone, including Banny, knew that his 2007 fielding-independent stats did not match up to his 2007 performance. Nonetheless, he still managed to FIP worse than most publicly available projection systems had him doing. So, while few expected him to be a #2 or #3 starter this year, no one expected him to be among the five worst starting pitchers in the AL (among qualifiers).
Evaluation: It's hard to tell what Moore thought he could get out of Bannister this year. Of course, part of this little exercise depends on a sort of psychological guessing-game. We all knew Banny couldn't keep it up, but I don't think anyone saw this coming. So I'll just say, again, that this was only slightly forseeable.
3) Mark Teahen's rapidly decreasing offensive returns. In 2006, Mark Teahen started poorly, went to Omaha, then came back on fire, giving fans hope that he might be "another Jason Giambi." In 2007, he didn't look like the next Jason Giambi, as the power mostly disappeared, although, in retrospect, a 98 OPS+ doesn't seem like the end of the world for a corner outfielder, especially with a .353 OBP. In 2008, BABIP chickens (pictured right) came home to roost.
Evaluation: On one hand, I say stick to the numbers -- a quick 'n dirty xBABIP analysis shows he was lucky in 2006 and 2007. On the other hand, when someone regularly does that sort of thing, it may be a skill. Moreover, most publicly-avilable projections systems like CHONE, ZiPS, Bill James, and Miner showed him to be somewhere between last year and 2006. I'm working on a different post that will (in part) reflect on Mark Teahen's bizarre ways with chance. I guess, given all of this, I would say that Teahen's disappointing offensive performance this year was not foreseeable to slightly foreseeable.
4) The collapse of the Royals team defense. Wow, did the Royals ever suck on defense this year. Fielding is hard to measure exactly, and I'm no expert, but let me give some arguments for it.
There was some discussion earlier in the season about how, despite everyone talking about how the pitching had improved, the runs allowed were still poor. Indeed, when the year ended, the Royals were 10th in the American league in runs allowed. I know that defensive metrics and stats still have a long way to go, but unless you think that Dayton Moore is just really unlucky (and given his close relationship to the Deity, I find this highly unlikely), fielding is the primary culprit.
Looking at the 2008 league averages from The Hardball Times, we see that the Royals were below league average in runs allowed. AL team average for runs allowed was 758, while the Royals allowed 751. AL average ERA was 4.35, while the Royals' team ERA was 4.48. So the pitching still sucks, right?
Not necessarily. Let's go a step further. The Royals team FIP (Fielding independent pitching) was above average. The league FIP average was 4.35, while the Royals' was 4.28. According to Stat Corner's park- and league-adjusted version of FIP, the Royals staff was a bit over 16 runs above average.
You are probably starting to get the idea. Looking at the THT's defensive analysis of the team as a whole, while the Royals (.829) are above AL average (.817) in Revised Zone Rating as a team, they are last in the league in OOZ, and their overall +/- (-33) (in THT's team version of the stat) is below average (-10).
Taking a look at the performances of individual fielders (I'm taking stats from different systems as they are available to me -- please do not take the team stats given above and my use of UZR and Dewan's taken from various places to be commensurable). I don’t subscribe to the services that provide +/- evaluations of players, but last I heard, Mike Aviles was the only Royal who was above average at his position. As jonfmorse put it in a game thread, according to one +/- system, the Royals fielding this year has been like Babe Ruth (Avilanche) batting in a lineup of Tony Pena, Juniors. I think we have a diagnosis, doctor.
Evaluation: Well, in 2007 TPJ had the best UZR of all shortstops in the AL (last I heard, he was negative this year, but Aviles replaced him before the break). Alex Gordon, Mark Teahen, and David Jesus were all in the top three at their respective positions (strangely, G-Load did not make the top three last year. But I thought he was a stud defender!). This year, all were below average, and Gordon may have been the worst everyday defensive third baseman in the majors (Chris Davis is probably worse, but there’s a relatively small sample size. He does project as a 1b). As my post about RBI for fielders (linked above) showed, some metrics have Ross Gload as one of the worst defensive first basemen in the majors this year. I have no idea whether these defenders just hit a bump in the road this year, or whether this is the future. Given past performance, though, I'd say the Royals' problems with fielding this year were unforeseeable.
5) The JoGui Issue. His OPS+ of 91 (or 95, b-r has it different on the his main and splits page), just to remind everyone, doesn't simply indicate that his park-adjusted OPS just below average (average being 100) for a right fielder, it’s below average for the American league. He did lead the Royals in home runs and extra-base hits. Despite that, JoGui was 8th among Royals hitters in VORP (just barely better than the 6.0 the undead Reggie Sanders put up last year). Granting that VORP for pitcher is somewhat problematic, he was 17th on the team in value. He’s 13th in OBP (non-September call-ups, non-pitcher, non-Tupman divison), and in 5th OPS. He leads the team in extra-base hits, but not slugging. He’s barely second in ISO (to Miguel Olivo) over Alex Gordon. Keep in mind this is all on a team that scored 691 runs this year. Guillen also shares the team lead for grounding into double plays with Billy Butler (23).
I’ll skip the section demarcation and just get right to the evaluation. I think Dayton should have seen this coming, but, given the contract he gave Guillen, he clearly didn't (I just can't believe he saw this performance coming. If this is really what he expected, he should be fired forthwith -- as Rany put it in a different context, preferably from a cannon). I want to emphasize that, although I think the signing was a mistake, this doesn't mean I "hate" DMGM and want him fired or that I "hate" Jose Guillen. Good GMs make mistakes like this all the time -- see the examples of Beane and Epstein cited at the beginning of this essay. I non more "hate" Guillen and want him to fail than people who point out Mike Aviles luck with BABIP or left-right splits "hate" Avilanche and want him to fail. I only write this because I know that people might (and probably still will) overreact to this. I'm not saying that I'm smarter than DMGM. I'm sure I'm not. I'm sure that Allard Baird and (deep breath) Ned Colletti are better at evaluating baseball players than I am. Still, I didn't like this signing to begin with, and it somehow turned out worse than I expected -- and yes, that's based purely on Guillen's performance. A peformance that, particularly when his perfectly predictably (he had the worst UZR of any right fielder in the AL last year) worst-on-the-team defense is factored is, is quiet accurately described as a "swirling vortex of suck." (Well, OK, that's probably a bit unfair given that Ross Gload and Tony Pena, Jr. got significant at-bats this season. But he was pretty bad.)
People probably think I’m piling on. Well, maybe, I can be a vindictive bastard. However, you’d be surprised how often people come up with "Guillen brings a little something extra" (super idiotic) or "hey, he leads the team in RBIs" (only slightly less idiotic). We can only assume, given Guillen’s contract, that DMGM thought that Guillen would at least reproduce his 2007 numbers. Is that a good assumption? Well, out of Chone, ZiPS, Bill James, and Marcels, only one has him coming close. If you look at his 2007 BABIP versus his xBABIP, he was even luckier last year than Mike Aviles was this year. Look at his splits -- he hasn’t been a good hitter against righties since 2005. He's been declining. He's 32. Do you really think he's going to bounce back next year?*
*Let me add a note about Guillen’s alleged use of performance enhancing drugs. I am not mentioning this out of some sort of self-righteous moral indignation. I don’t know if Dayton Moore knew anything about this at the time -- I think the reports came out after the signing. But, although not everything can be credited to steroids, and 2003 (by far Guillen’s best year) was his age 27 year, doesn’t anyone else find it interesting that his 2003-2005 peak (which departs significantly from his previous 6 seasons of performance) coincides almost exactly with his (alleged) use of PEDs from 2002-2005? That might explain at least partially Guillen's inability to repeat that peformance since that time.
Again, I believe this is all totally foreseeable. Guillen is the anti-Meche. Both were controversial signings by Dayton Moore that were widely decried. Their paths depart from there. Meche’s rise was perhaps a bit foreseeable. Meche is positive, says he wants to stay in Kansas city. Meche has been one of the best "#2" level pitchers in the AL the last two years. Despite all this, some fans still aren’t buying in. Guillen’s decline was totally foreseeable. He bitches and moans constantly, yet shows up out of shape, sucks both offensively and defensively, yet somehow, despite getting booed by fans and some people going so far implying that the bad things coming out about him are due to some irrational hatred of him by the fans, gets defended on the basis of some mystical leadership ability and RBIs.
Let’s me repeat: Jose Guillen sucks is not a very good baseball player anymore. He’s 32, just in time for a performance spike, right?! Anyway, I’ve said it was foreseeable. If people want to skip over the rest of the Guillen section due to repetition or because they can’t stand to see such a hero to Royals fans everywhere impugned by my obvoius irrational hatred of Guillen and falsification of statistics, that’s fine. I didn’t want to pile on, really. But I want to add one more paragraph on Guillen, since most of my frustration with the "Guillen issue" is connection with people pulling out the "RBI" argument and crap like that I want a "clearinghouse" for this information that people can draw on for when someone claims that Guillen is an "RBI man" or whatever.
I think the best explanation of "how" Guillen racked up so many RBIs has a special skill (or lacks it, for that matter) for getting RBIs, but rather that he had the most plate appearances on the team, the most plate appearances with runners in scoring position, and that he hit 3rd or 4th in the order all year behind guys with better OBP like Dejesus (especially), Aviles, and (before Hillman got stupid) Gordon. So I do not, to reiterate, think that stats w/ RISP represents a repeatable skill or anything. For for those who do think that they represent a skill and that Guillen has it and that is why he leads the teams in RBIs, here we go. I’ve excluded the averages of guys with small sample sizes like Ryan Shealy, Zack Greinke (!), and Gil Meche (!!), who all ranked ahead of Guillen on this stuff. Here are Guillen’s ranks (taken from my research in another discussion) amongst Royals with runners in scoring position this year:
BA w/ RiSP: 9th, behind such hit machines like Esteban German, Miguel Olivo, and Ross Gload
OPS w/RiSP: 7th, behind studs like German, Olivo, and Buck
SLG w/RiSP: 7th, behind fearsome sluggers like German, Olivo, and Buck
GIDP w/RISP: 1st by a wide margin with 13
Evaluation: Quite foreseeable.
Conclusion: There are, I suppose, other things that I could have mentioned. One thing I might have discussed is Gathright, since I sometimes got the feeling that Moore saw him as a starting CF possibility, but this post is too long to begin with.
My conclusion is that Moore's optimistic projection was based on at least 5 miscalculations on his part. The two projections that failed in teh biggest way were Jose Guillen's offensive performance and the team's ability to field.
I found that he should have foreseen that Jose Guillen would not meet his expectations (as one can only assume from the large contract he gave Guillen -- a "risk-reward" contract isn't a bad idea as a one year contract with perhaps a second year option, not a 3/36 contract, in my opinion). This is not saying that the Royals would have been better off without him, keep in mind, but simply that Moore's projection of 78-82 must have assumed that Guillen would be much better than this.
As for fielding, that was a projection that Dayton missed, but I doubt many would have gotten it right, given the individual player's performance last year, that this was unforeseeable, and Moore can't be blamed for that.
As for Gload, Pena, Teahen, and Bannister, well, that's the middle ground. Individually, I don't think there is much one can blame Moore for there, at least at the beginning of the year when he was projecting the team's final record (the issue of when he should have given up on Pena, Gload, et. al as individual players is separate -- I hope this is clarified in the update above). Taken together, though, it was unlikely that they would all live up to last year's peformance.
That's my take on where Dayton's projection went wrong and where he should have known better. Feel free to ream me out or point out potential other areas of discussion. I have to catch the train now or I'm dead!
[Update: Well, I wish I'd have taken more time to work through all this stuff before I published it. Thanks for your patience.]
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The "optimistic" nature of Moore's 2008 win total projection
I really don’t think 78-82 wins was unrealistically optimistic. I don’t think he “should have known better.” My projection was 80 wins. The average Royals Review poster prediction was 78.8 wins. The average Royals Corner poster prediction was 78.7 wins. Maybe we were all just crazily optimistic. Or maybe it was reasonable to expect better than how they ended up performing from Guillen, Butler, Gordon and Gload (among some others)
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on
Oct 1, 2008 5:38 PM EDT
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Updates added for clarification (or further confusion, take your pick)
I hope I didn’t come off too condescending in the way I wrote it. I apologize if I did. I know that the tone and writing are uneven, so there was some lack of focus. I hope the “updates” clarify things at least a bit.\
LIke I said, I was assuming that Moore was being straightforward with his projections. And, yes, it’s easy for me to criticize it in hindsight, especially since I made a projection myself (I don’t normally do that — I’m sure I would have been at least 4 games off. ).
Iwas was just trying to give a retrospective look back on things. Obviously, if a team wins 75 games, 80 games isn’t “wildly” optimistic. Especially since the defense was so much worse than last year, from what I’ve read. That’s why I tried to add in the “foreseeable/unforeseeable” stuff in there. I thought that was the key part of the article, and that obviously didn’t come through clearly. And that’s why I cut DMGM a bit of slack on the individual performances of TPJ, GLoad, Teahen, and Bannister.
I guess it’s easy for me to say now, but, although I didn’t think it would be this bad, my initial idea of what Guillen would do this year is closer to what he ended up doing than what Moore must have thought (I assume something like last years 116 OPS+). During his hot streak, I got pulled into thinking he might be able to repeat it. But the more I looked at his past stats, and ZeppelinDZ’s BABIP stuff was really helpful, the more I saw him as a guy likely to decline or already be declining. Yeah, it’s the benefit of hindsight on my part, but the data I drew on was already available to DMGM.
I’m sure there are many people on this site better at projecting that I am, who would end up closer. I suppose I’d just have to say that I do think projecting Guillen to repeat something like last year’s performance was a bit optimistic. It’s not crazy, since Dayton Moore clearly thought he could. And, yeah, before I started bugging people on here and reading stuff, I might have thought so, too. I’m not trying to pull a “woo hoo in your face” or anything as if I knew better. But I think that was a mistake DMGM made in the projection. And in the contract as well, of course.
I hope that makes more
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on
Oct 1, 2008 7:50 PM EDT
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sense now
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on
Oct 1, 2008 7:51 PM EDT
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I think it
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on
Oct 1, 2008 7:59 PM EDT
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makes sense.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on
Oct 1, 2008 7:59 PM EDT
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How the hell do you have the patience to write something that long?
Anyway, it also could have been one simple thing, really. If Butler had hit .290/.350/.475 would that equate to 3 extra wins? If Hochevar hadn’t struggled with two outs so much (which is pretty much the primary reason his FIP was like 4.40), would that equate to 2 or 3 extra wins?
Seems like were making this out to be a tad more complicated that it really is.
Rowdy Hardy Fan Club member.
by doublestix on
Oct 1, 2008 5:40 PM EDT
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I'm more surprised anyone had the patience to read it!
Winky face.
Yeah… thanks of resonding guys. I was running to the train right when I hit publish, and some things came out differenty than I wanted, but I stupidly didn’t save for later. I’m going to make some edits first…
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on
Oct 1, 2008 7:26 PM EDT
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"for responding"
%$$#^!
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on
Oct 1, 2008 7:41 PM EDT
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I like making things complicated
it’s a good way to mask my stupidity!
More later.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on
Oct 1, 2008 7:52 PM EDT
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Anyone else think...
That if we had won 70 games, he would have said he projected us to win 74-78?
Or if we had won 90 games, he would have had projected us to win 92-96?
I think the simple fact that he said this after the season was a easy way for him to take a quick “jab” (totally for lack of a better term) at the team for “Under performing” in his mind.
He couldn’t exactly have said that he projected us winning only 70 games. Then he sets himself up to major (well, as major as it gets in KC) criticism from the media for having a $60 or whatever million dollar payroll that he only expected to play 20 games under.
Saying that he expected the team to be 5-10 wins better than they were is the perfect way to play it. Like I said before, it plants the seed in every players mind that they underperformed.
Your analysis is well versed, and I think you make some valid points, but I honestly think you may be over analyzing what is really nothing more than GM speak.
by GoBabies!! on
Oct 1, 2008 6:56 PM EDT
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It could be all GM spin
It’s hard to tell. Most of what Moore says publicly is either obvious truth or standard GM public relations, so it’s hard to say.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on
Oct 1, 2008 7:30 PM EDT
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I think he said his win total
as a way to help motivate the people around him. Sure we were better then last year but we still were not good enough. That’s what it sounds like to me anyway. If you are under 500 and you are happy/satisfied then I personally do not want you to be part of the Royals.
by TXroyal on
Oct 1, 2008 7:34 PM EDT
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Yeah
I’m glad he isn’t satisfied with it. In response to both GoBabies and you, I agree with NYRoyal that, at least for me, I don’t know DMGM well-enough to do anything but take his statement straightforwardly.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on
Oct 1, 2008 7:51 PM EDT
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I recommend this post for the first
Royals Review Book Club read.
We always did feel the same, We just saw it from a different point of view, Tangled up in blue.
-Bob Dylan
by Royal Kingdom on
Oct 1, 2008 9:09 PM EDT
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Positive zing!
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on
Oct 1, 2008 9:35 PM EDT
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Updated
Improved some of the horrible sentence structures, corrected typos, beefed up to reach my usual ratio of dumb jokes, added tags
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on
Oct 1, 2008 10:42 PM EDT
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Guillen
The Guillen signing, standing alone based solely on statistical analysis with no reference to the team and the market, was a bad idea. But…can you really imagine Moore going through the last offseason not adding a higher profile “power-hitting” outfielder through free agency? He would have been lambasted by average-Joe fans and intelligent fans (the folks here, of course) alike. He bid high on Torii Hunter, he bid high on Andruw Jones (glad we didn’t get his 63 games of .523 OPS?). Other than Guillen, who was there? Fukodome and his .784 OPS and 7 HR (with 1/2 his games at Wrigley—7th in HR park factor compared to Kauffman’s 29th)? Geoff Jenkins/Brad Wilkerson/Corey Patterson? The equally risky and injured at the time Milton Bradley? (And saying “Trade for Carlos Quentin” doesn’t count—he was coming of shoulder surgery and wasn’t even a lock to make the White Sox opening day roster, let alone become the pre-injury MVP candidate—he looked, at best, a lot like Mark Teahen 2.0 at this point last year). Would the fanbase really have been satisfied with “Emil Brown can handle it for one more year?”
Unfortunately, the Guillen signing was the signing Moore could make and had to made last year—he was the best available power-hitting outfielder willing to come to Kansas City. And this makes me incredibly nervous about 2009. Moore again is in a situation where he has to make the same type of signing as the Guillen signing. How much money can you give Adam Dunn or Pat Burrell to come to KC? Are either worth $20M a year (that’s not crazy—A. Jones was going to cost 18)? My guess is there’s simply not enough money anywhere to lure those guys to KC when they’re going to get bigger paydays for bigger markets and instant playoff contention, leaving a group of mostly even older than Guillen guys (i.e. Abreu, Ibanez, Griffey) or just as much a gamble as Guillen guys (Juan Rivera or, um, Milton Bradley—imagine Bradley and Guillen in the same outfield and locker room). Guillen is the unfortunate reality of “signing for the sake of signing somebody,” and I fear we’ll see it again this year. I don’t know that you can really fault Moore for not standing up to, well, everyone and saying, “Nah, none of those guys are worth it, we’ll play who we have.” But I kinda wish he would.
Sometimes you just gotta roll the potato.
by CentralChamps2009 on
Oct 2, 2008 4:44 AM EDT
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I think you're right on a lot of points
I do want to remind people that the main point of my post (which admittedly got lost a bit on the way) was to see where Dayton Moore might have gone wrong in projecting the team to win 78-82 games. I think that Guillen’s performance stands out at the area where Dayton probably went the most wrong in projecting performance, and the one where he mostly could have known better.
I see what you’re saying about the fanbase. I don’t know. I’d like to think that the fanbase could understand that losing at most 2 games more this year (or perhaps winning 1-2 games more if the Royals had signed HInske, although I’m not sure if we could expect that. His projections from CHONE, Marcels, et.al. were about the same as Guillen’s, so break even for much less money, at least.) and then clearly being able to afford Adam Dunn or Pat Burrell next year.
I still think they might have enough money, even if they aren’t able to trade away Guillen’s contract, to sign one of those dudes. Hinske and Rivera aren’t awesome options, but have the advantage of offering at least Guillen-level performance at half the price, perhaps.
I’m not in favor of bringing in Bradley simply because (personality aside) I wouldn’t want to give him more than a one-year contract, and the Royals need to look further into the future (and the DH spot is probably taken). Who knows? If Texas doesn’t give him enough, I wouldn’t kill the Royals to bring him in on a one-yera $8 millino contract. That won’t happen.
Check this out, though. Here’s two sets of bRAA (batting runs above average — a counting stat from (Stat Corner) figures from 2005-2007.
Player A:
2005: 17.1
2006: -12.3
2007: 21.8
Player B:
2005: 10.4
2006: 14.8
2007: 14.5
I think you’d say that player A has more upside, but maybe got hurt or had a down year in 2006, right? That maybe player B is the more reliable performer? I think you know where this is going, right? Adding in 2008 makes it more obvous, which is where I was going with it.
Player A:
2005: 17.1
2006: -12.3
2007: 21.8
2008: -2.5
Player B:
2005: 10.4
2006: 14.8
2007: 14.5
2008: 36.4
I think it’s obvious now, who is the better bet. Player A is Jose Guillen, player B is Milton Bradley. Bradley, rightly so, has the rightly-earned reptuation for being hurt more often. But despite this, because of his superior skills as a hitter, even when he’s hurt for portions of seasons, he’s been almost as valuable offensively in those seasons, whereas Guillen’s unjured 2006 was a total bust. 2008 makes the current skills of the respective players obvious (yes, Bradley was in Texas, but bRAA is park-adjusted. Bradley also played far fewer games).
Again, not recommending the Royals sign Milton, but I did want to put his injury problems in perspective.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on
Oct 2, 2008 11:41 AM EDT
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I agree that Guillen' poor performance is a big drag both
on the field and on the payroll. The lack of defense on this team is what is staggering to me though. I think Tampa Bay showed what kind of drastic improvement a team can make by making an effort to overhaul their defense. As much as Moneyball had the reputation of marginalizing the importance of defense I think it may be a new market inefficiency as it is much cheaper to improve than hitting. If +/- systems are correct we could improve by around 50 runs replacing or shifting 4 players with simply average defenders.
by djk royal on
Oct 2, 2008 8:57 AM EDT
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Right
Moneyball was already talking about the As moving into the “defense” market.
Keep in mind my point regarding defense, which I do think is valid: Looking at the UZR link, I don’t think we can blame DMGM for not expecting the defense to fall apart. TPJ, Gordon, Teahen, and DDJ were all 20 or more plays worse than last year (that’s about 1.5 games _each). Who knows whether this is an anomaly, or whether some or all can rebound. Well, TPJ’s done, and Aviles looked OK, but you see my point.
If it’s exploitable, fine. I suspect that the Rays’ success may mean defense is going to rise in price. The Orlando Hudson contract will be a nice indicator.
The Mark Ellis one will be, perhaps even more. I’m more and more thinking he wouldn’t be a bad fallback option. He was +25 in 2007, and I think I read someone on here saying he was about the same this year. Given his terrible BABIP luck, he could be a real steal for someone. I’m still curious about Callaspo’s defensive numbers. Trey didn’t seem to be a big fan of his defense in the last interview, and you know he’s a stats guy (Batting Average!)… ahem…
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on
Oct 2, 2008 11:46 AM EDT
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If one was only concerned about improving defense
with no regard to development, positional value, etc… Imagine signing Ellis, Furcal and maybe trading for a Mike Cameron type stud defensive CF.
1b Gordon
2b Ellis
SS Furcal
3b Aviles
UI Callaspo
CF Cameron
LF DeJesus
RF Guillen
4th OF Teahen
To me that lineup is better offensively and defensively and improves the bench. It would increase the age of the team by more than a little though.
by djk royal on
Oct 2, 2008 12:27 PM EDT
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Might actually be better off with Teahen in RF
Or at least a platoon with Guillen
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on
Oct 2, 2008 12:33 PM EDT
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Ellis
One important factor with Ellis is that his season ended not too long ago with shoulder surgery. This could affect when he’s ready for next season and, more importantly, when he might be 100%. Significant shoulder problems like that can linger. It can definitely affect a fielder’s throwing arm, and potentially his hitting.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on
Oct 2, 2008 1:50 PM EDT
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Good point
I did not know that
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on
Oct 2, 2008 2:01 PM EDT
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And it was/is a pretty major problem
The late September surgery repaired torn cartilage and a torn labrum. The labrum was torn in 2004, causing him to miss the entire season. He rehabbed his shoulder and played with the tear since then. But the problem has lingered and he re-injured his shoulder in late August. The phrase “torn labrum” is the biggest possible injury red flag. Even minor labrum tears are serious. Obviously it is most significant if we’re talking about a pitcher’s throwing arm. But it is also very important for a fielder whose primary value comes from defense. To me, this significantly decreases Ellis’s value.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on
Oct 2, 2008 2:21 PM EDT
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Wanna make sure the Guillen signing isn't repeated?
Then sign somebody SO good, you don’t have to worry all that much about an age decline.
I would suggest either Adam Dunn or Manny Ramirez. Pay them 20 million (Dunn) or 25 million (Ramirez), and you will get actual, real bang for your buck.
by loyal2sdad on
Oct 2, 2008 9:39 AM EDT
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Love your spirit
I love Dunn, but wouldn’t pay $20 million/year to get him, because even if the Royals shed the Guillen contract, if they get to the point where they want to move Dunn, it becomes that much more difficult. I’m a follow-the-leader type, so I say no more than 3/54 or 4/66 or so for Dunn, which I don’t think is out to lunch budget wise, and also I don’t think it unrealistic since it isn’t clear that the rest of MLB is all that high on Dunn.
Manny would be hilarious in KC. I can’t permit myself the dream of him coming, though. He won’t want to, he’s 38, he sucks even worse on defense than Jose Guillen, and he wants 4 years.
Who knows, maybe he’d like the quiet life?
Downside: Angel Berroa looks like the new Julian Tavarez. Can you really tolerate the thought of him on the roster again?
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on
Oct 2, 2008 11:50 AM EDT
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With Dunn, there is great reason to worry about his decline
Not so much in 2009, but definitely over the course of a 4+ year contract (even a 3- year contract, to some extent). It’s no secret what the decline curve is for player’s of his type. They decline much earlier and more rapidly than the average player.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on
Oct 2, 2008 1:54 PM EDT
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Or better yet, sign 4-5.
Personally, I’d rather see us sign 4 or 5 guys that might be the next Hinske. Probably it would cost the same or less than signing one big guy. And you shield yourself from the potential of having that one guy get injured (or having to play him even though he took off the managers cap and publicly crapped in it).
In spring training, you put the new “fleet o’Hinkes” in celebrity death match with all the COF, 1B and DH candidates already on the roster. The best 4 start, the next 3 get back up positions and the rest are cut.
Of course people will say “we still have to pay the other guys who get cut”. Yep, there is guaranteed waste in the plan. But at least there is also that potential that one or two of the guys will outplay their contracts. When we signed Guillen, we knew he would never live up to the deal. So there was every bit as much “built in waste” in that big deal. And I promise, ManRam or Dunn won’t outplay the contract we would give them either.
The biggest benefit is the insurance that comes from having the risk split across several players. Assuming we could slip some of the guys who fail in the death match back to Omaha, we would be in a much better position to withstand injuries.
by Big Guy on
Oct 2, 2008 3:29 PM EDT
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Don't cut Guillen
I mean, he’s not very good, but at the very worst, trade him and offload at least some of his contract. Personally, I think that if they don’t have a taker, it’s worth having him around. If he has another hot streak before the deadline, maybe the Royals can get rid of the contract, and, if Dayton can work his magic, get a halfway decent bit part out of the deal.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on
Oct 2, 2008 3:59 PM EDT
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Gload, Pena, and Guillen's defense
Gload and Pena were known empty spots in the lineup going into the season, so it was quite foreseeable that upgrades at 1B and SS would be considerable drags on scoring runs. Gload projected as a little above replacment level but well below average for a 1B, and Pena projected below replacement level with the bat but at or a little above replacement level when adding his glove. The extent of their collapse was not entirely foreseeable, but 1B and SS were well-known black holes on opening day.
Some decline in defense was predictible because of Guillen’s well-known lack of range. The extent of the decline, however, was not.
by Gopherballs on
Oct 2, 2008 12:53 PM EDT
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Thanks
I know this probaby wasn’t clear in my post, but that is pretty much what I was saying. I acknowledge that Guillen was a drag on the defense (does anyone have both his and Emil’s Dewan’s numbers from this year?) in there. When I discuss defense in general, I meant aside from Guillen. UZR had Teahen, Gordon, DDJ, and TPJ all among the best in the AL last year. Last I heard they were all below average/among the worst this year.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on
Oct 2, 2008 2:04 PM EDT
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Brown was +2 this year and +3 last year
Dewan and UZR use different data (Dewan started Stats Inc., which UZR uses, before selling it off and starting Baseball Info Solutions or BIS, which Dewan now uses), so there will be some differences between them. For whatever reason, UZR seems to be a little kinder to the Royals (my completely off-the-cuff and in-no-way confirmed suspicion is that UZR might be more forgiving in regards to fielders who lack extended range). TPJ is the only one of those four with any sort of extended range (and he had a rough few weeks with the glove before finding the bench at the end of May).
DDJ might be nearing the end of the line as an everyday defensive centerfielder. He has always relied more on skill than speed, but he is at the age where players tend to lose a step and really cannot afford to lose a half-step.
by Gopherballs on
Oct 2, 2008 4:24 PM EDT
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that's Dewan's, right?
Did Guillen end up around -20 or so? Cause if that’s a 22 play different, times 0.8, that’s 17.6 runs in Brown’s favor..
Stat Corner has Guillen’s hitting at bRAA at -2.5. Brown’s is at -6.6. That’s a 4.1 run advantage for Guillen. However, given that bRAA is based on taking their rate stats and multiplying by plate appeareances, though, we have to adjust for plate appearanaces, as Guillen has 631 to Emil’s 438. I’ll just give Emil 50% more, as that’s easy. So, given Guillen’s number of plate appearances, Emil’s bRAA would be about 9.9. Thus adjusted, Guillen was 7.4 runs better than Brown offensively…
Interesting.
I guess this all depends on what Guillen’s actually stats were this year.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on
Oct 2, 2008 4:38 PM EDT
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"actual stats" = actual Dewan's rating.
Are those ratings adjusted so that they reflect everyone have the same number of chances, or are they just the raw numbers?
Maybe I should just subscribe to Bill James online. Too lazy, though. I know RR can’t republish whole pieces and stuff, but if someone wrote a piece on the Royals team defense or something this year that had each player’s Dewan’s and or UZR this year, that would be pretty cool.
Any thoughts on Gordon’s defensive future? Anyone, anyone?
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on
Oct 2, 2008 4:40 PM EDT
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I like Gordon's defensive future
He was one of the better defensive 3B’s in the AL last year by UZR. And this year he was quite ways down in negative territory in RZR; hard to say what his UZR will end up being. I think that shows the lack of reliability of even the best defensive metrics. I’m not saying they are worthless, but does anyone think that he suddenly went from being a good defensive 3B in 2007 to a bad one in 2008? Definitely not.
I think Gordon is and will continue to be an above average defenisve 3B. He’s probably closer to average right now and as he gains experience, he’ll become more reliable on all kinds of plays, making him decidedly above average. He’s got good speed and quickness, which gives him good range. He’s got a soft glove and a strong, accurate arm. I don’t think he is or ever will be a spectacular Gold Glove third baseman (unless his bat carries him to such an award), but there isn’t much to really dislike about his defensive game.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on
Oct 2, 2008 5:05 PM EDT
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I hope so --
I’ve started to have really absurd fantasies about his offensive performance next year — .880 OPS with a .380-390 OBP… 40 doubles, 25 home runs, 20 for 23 stolen bases…
Ridiculous, I know… I really do think he’ll OPS between .830-.860, though.
I know that defensive metrics are still working themselves out. I think cases like Gordon’s, where he’s good one year and bad the next, that the metrics aren’t as predictable. In cases like Guillen’s, where he was bad this year and last year, well, I think that reflects his real ability, as Gopherballs sort of said w/ regard to this stuff in general in a comment he just posted below.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on
Oct 2, 2008 5:23 PM EDT
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"Best in AL"
The things to keep in mind about "best in AL’ with regards to defensive rankings are (1) they are based among qualifiers and a league may have less than 10 players qualifying at a given position and (2) the more important number is the actual number that is relative to a historical average. Gordon was +4 by UZR in 2007, which means he was only a little above the historical average. If he is below average this year — and given defenders can have slumps too — that should not be too unexpected. That said, Gordon looks more like someone who has had some execution problems this year as opposed to someone with deteriorating skills (see Grudz, lack of range), so I would expect him to bounce back next year.
by Gopherballs on
Oct 2, 2008 5:33 PM EDT
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Yes, Dewan's numbers for Emil
Guillen’s +/- was -20 plays (-10 in LF and -10 in RF), so -16 runs. It is based on playing time, but between LF and RF Guillen had almost a full season’s worth of playing time. Dewan and others would still say you should look at 3 years of data for evaluating fielding. This makes sense, as most fielders who are competent enough to see action in the majors at a particular position will make plays most of the time. The grading of defense comes from the plays on the edges.
by Gopherballs on
Oct 2, 2008 5:21 PM EDT
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Thanks, again
I don’t want to start a way, but if my rough offensive analysis above is a good way to compare Jose and Emil, then, well… I never thought Emil would be as good, much less potentially one game better than JoGui.
I want to post somewhere else where people list, debate, and rank the best “pay” sites for baseball. Obviously, different sites have different functions, but I’m gong for “overall” — offense, defense, essays, fantasy advice, coverage of the minors, etc. That would be fun.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on
Oct 2, 2008 5:26 PM EDT
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With the free sites like THT, fangraphs, statcorner, etc.
most of the areas are covered. Tom Tango really needs to partner with somebody who could put a cohesive site together for all of the great material he churns out every year (props to statcorner for the sortable wOBA numbers), but given his stance on free access, it might not be economically viable. I doubt I would subscribe to the Bill James site except for Dewan’s in-season numbers, but your results may vary. The Fielding Bible will have the year-end numbers.
by Gopherballs on
Oct 2, 2008 5:50 PM EDT
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Yeah, but for the cost of the fielding bible, I could subscribe to James for 5 months, right?
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on
Oct 2, 2008 6:03 PM EDT
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or to put it another way, with the addtional runs for allowing xbh
Guilen hit about .220 with defense added in, glad we spent $11 million on that.
Go Royals!
by BabyBlues on
Oct 2, 2008 6:04 PM EDT
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