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Using the closer in none close situations

Hey NY Royal and others, I know it was mentioned by someone (i thought it was NY that's why i mentioned you) that the team's best pitcher should come in in the hardest situations of the game, regardless of inning. We were talking about soria at the time and trying to figure out a way to max his positive affect on the team. I know this was a couple of days ago but did you see Papelbon come in in the 7th against Tampa, shut them down, and the Sox eventually came back and won. That was a great move by Francona, and I'm not just saying that because they came back and won. Papelbon, the best pitcher on the team came in the pressure situation and closed the door. I don't think Hillman would ever do this but I wish he would.

about 1 year ago N30314657_30826435_5022_tiny tcon125 16 comments 0 recs  | 

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IF IT AIN'T BROKE DON'T FIX IT!!!!

Just kidding. I agree, wish Hillman would break the mold a bit and be a bit more daring in reliever usage. He’d be subject to a lot of criticism, but he’s already going to be subject to criticism anyway.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Oct 21, 2008 9:37 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

i agree

I don’t agree with using that example though. That was a do or die situation. Most managers would have done that in that situation.

Rowdy Hardy Fan Club member.

by doublestix on Oct 21, 2008 9:44 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Eventually I'll look through all of Soria's appearances

to see how many of his < 2 run saves were where he faced the 6,7,8 hitters after Ramirez and Mahay took care of the heart of the order.

by Top Ramen on Oct 21, 2008 10:03 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, this almost never happens

Even Francona was loathe to use Papelbon in a non-traditional closer way in the regular season. The smartest way to use a closer is in the highest leverage situations. And starting the 9th inning with a 2+ run lead is not a high leverage situation. There are, however, many high leverage situations in the course of a season in the 7th and 8th inning. In those situations, there’s no reason to use your 2nd, 3rd or 4th best reliever, which is what almost always happens.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2008 12:26 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Yeah

I think the judgement should not be made until the Royals make the playoffs, are in a similar situation, and Hillman doesn’t do this. Because I like to think that he would.

by I need more Esteban on Oct 22, 2008 12:43 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

if MudKip isn't available

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Oct 22, 2008 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The problem is that all managers should be willing to do this in any game

…not just in a playoff elimination game.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2008 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agree, but please recognize

that with all of the extra off-days, the post season does not resemble the regular season in the slightest.

If you bring Soria into a game in the 7th during the regular season intending to let him get 7 outs, and you have games for the next 10 days straight after that, then you have to be prepared to win a different way for at least the next 2 games.

Of course, the best way to maximize Soria’s impact on the team is to put him in the rotation.

Mr Glass, this is a pro sports team, not a retail store - run it like one!

by loyal2sdad on Oct 22, 2008 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

True, but
If you bring Soria into a game in the 7th during the regular season intending to let him get 7 outs, and you have games for the next 10 days straight after that, then you have to be prepared to win a different way for at least the next 2 games.

First, your point is valid and that is a concern, but I want to point out that bringing a closer — or “relief ace” — into a game in the 7th inning does not necessitate that he finish the game. Let’s say this pitcher comes into game into a tie game in the 7th and runners on first and second. That’s a pretty high leverage situation. Let’s say he gets two outs, allowing no runs, getting his team out of the jam. Then if the pitcher’s team scores a couple runs before the 9th inning, suddenly you’ve got a moderate-to-low leverage situation to start the 9th inning. Let some other pitcher (like the second or third best reliever) pitch the 9th. Then the relief ace has only pitched 1 2/3 innings and could pitch the next day if necessary, or just be rested for one day.

Second, I think relief aces should be used with a “bird in the hand is worth two in the bush” philosophy. If you’ve got a high leverage situation in the 7th or 8th inning, you’ve got a close, winnable game. In the next game or two, who knows if you’re going to have close, winnable games? You might have clear losses or wins in those games which wouldn’t be appropriate appearances for the relief ace. I rather use him when I know I need him, than save him for future games where he might or might not be needed.

Of course, the best way to maximize Soria’s impact on the team is to put him in the rotation.

This is always and undoubtedly true. The only thing that keeps me from saying that this is a colossal blunder by Moore/Hillman is that there is a valid concern about his mechanics. Independent analysts have pointed to Soria’s mechanics being an injury risk. If they (and Moore) are right, then there is a real and big downside to trying to have him throw 100 pitches in a game and 200 innings in a season (even after appropriately and slowly built up to this). I don’t know how great the risk is, and of course no one does. And I think bringing him along slowly in the role and monitoring him closely mitigates this risk. But the very real and possibly, potentially great risk is there.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2008 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

To be fair, Hillman did use Soria in non save situations and for multiple innings from time to time.

He will use Soria in 9th inning or later tie games at home, and will occasionally use Soria if the top set up men are not getting the job done to pitch mulitple innings. Ramon was so effective that it would be a tough call to not use him to get to Soria most of the season, the same with a lot of the late inning relievers that were really good this year. He did not give Soria enough work in streches where we were losing and Soria looked pretty rusty when that happened. Hillman is not working with a bullpen of just Soria, and his confidence in his set-up men to enter and shut down the opposing team may be as important as Soria being underused sometimes. Its was pretty easy to understand what your role was and how much confidence the skipper had in you in Hillman’s bullpen. No confusion in the bullpen is good.
Now if someone would tell him what a LOOGY is and if the Royals would win enough close games to not underuse Soria, it will be a great bullpen.

Go Royals!

by BabyBlues on Oct 22, 2008 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Soria and the injury risk

Maybe there are articles somewhere on bullpen usage and the injury risk, but it seems like Soria’s present usage would present nearly as much of an risk as throwing 100 pitches every five days would.

Right now he’ll routinely pitch 4+ nights in a row throwing one (relatively) high leverage inning. Then he’ll sit and be unused for 4+ nights in a row because the team’s not in any close games. Wouldn’t throwing that many nights in a row of high leverage innings present nearly as much of a concern?

by Top Ramen on Oct 22, 2008 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe
Wouldn’t throwing that many nights in a row of high leverage innings present nearly as much of a concern?

There has been a lot of speculation and little reliable research as to whether regular relieving duty or starting duty puts more physical stress and strain on a pitcher. What’s harder on a pitcher, 105 pitches every fifth day or 25 pitches 4 out of every 7 days? Regardless, this is an open short-term physical stress issue. It is pretty clear that 200+ innings pitched over the course of a season put a lot more wear and tear and injury risk on a pitcher than 75 innings.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Oct 22, 2008 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Oct 22, 2008 2:32 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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