I think Gutierrez is the best player of the three if they are all at current performance levels, given his defense. He also may have some offensive upside, but I wouldn’t count on it.

He isn’t a great, high-ceiling prospect. He didn’t make it to AAA until age 24. That’s not a good sign. He’s an ok prospect. Quite frankly, I think he’s most likely going to end up as a Teahen/Francisco/Gutierrez quality player.

Just agreeing with my LGT countryman: Gutierrez could have a lot of value for the Indians as a reserve CF and a platoon partner for Choo. I’m not sure Gutierrez for Teahen is equal value. If you want an accurate picture of Francisco, take a look at his second-half 2008 numbers, not his early summer hot stretch. I would never get him as a regular starter if I could help it, let alone a full-time CF. And Crowe … you can have him. Lots of luck.

First, how was Teahen’s defense at 3B? My sense is not good, but I’d appreciate your thoughts.

I always thought his defensive skills at 3B looked pretty good. The advanced defensive metrics say he was crap. I think he basically handles what is hit to him pretty well, but his range isn’t so good. He isn’t going to make a lot of mistakes, but he also isn’t going to get to much at the edge of his zone or out of his zone.

What do you think of a trade of Teahen for Gutierrez? Fair? Unfair to the Indians?

bad attitude — sometimes he doesn’t even swing, and then he just WALKS to first base, as if he deserved a BASE because of the BALLS he took… I’m not sure what it’s called. Lazy Guy’s discount, I think.

When I said above that it would take Gutierrez+, I was thinking of him merely as a corner OFer. Since he can play CF, and probably play it well, that changes a lot. I’d be happy to take Gutierrez for Teahen straight up. They can have a throw-in if necessary (Blake Johnson, Paulo Orlando, Mario Lisson).

Where have you been reading this for weeks? He’s a good value for the money. Not a great player. Not an average corner OFer. But a good player, and particularly a nice value at 3B.

But suddenly Crowe or Francisco or Gutierrez are not fair value in return. Are you kidding?

Neither Francisco nor Crowe would be a fair value straight up. Don’t even get me started on Crowe. He’s not even a particularly good prospect. He’s an ok prospect and that’s about it. Francisco has decent numbers in 500 MLB at bats and he’s the same age as Teahen. Neither is a great hitter. Neither is a bad hitter. Neither is or will be an average hitting corner OFer. They are very similar. But Teahen has at least had a season where he performed at a considerably higher level. One of the reasons this wouldn’t be a good deal for the Royals is that it doesn’t help us a bit. It is a trade of one sub-par corner OFer for another. That doesn’t help us. It helps the Indians by giving you a 3B. The Royals would need to fill a position of need with an upgrade. So Gutierrez who can play CF would make sense. I think Teahen plus a throw-in for Gutierrez would be fair. And by throw-in I mean a decent prospect, but certainly not a top 10.

I think Teahen for Crowe or Francisco, straight up, is more than fair.

I think that is rampant homerism.

That jerk NYroyal.

Next time you want to play around with the trade value of players, look at some stats and also consider the position(s) the players play.

Shapiro will never win his fantasy league that way!

Wait… is the Al Central 5×5 or head to head?

Good lord. You’re serious, Mick?

The tools and stats make it appear that Gutierrez would be a good defensive CFer. And I think his hitting would be sufficient for CF as well (with the potential to be a plus for the position). If DeJesus is slowing, and therefore his defense is getting worse, then I don’t mind upgrading CF defense (with someone who can hit for the position) and moving DJ to a corner position.

I don’t understand why this franchise is so hell bent on moving DJ to left.

I don’t get it either. Then again, I don’t/didn’t understand:

1) Butler for Yuniesky Betancourt (fell through, thank Xenu)
2) J. P. Howell for Joey Gathright
3) Gload acquisition
4) Gload extension
5) Gload starting

what’s the possible link?

“Trey, is that your wife? That oatmeal needs some brown sugar…”

I know you guys are going to look at things from your perspective but it Franklin’s ability in the OF cannot be overstated. He has far and away the best single skill of anyone involved in the discussion and, for that reason, I doubt he’s actually on the table.

Not all skills are created equal. Franklin is great defensively, but also has a career OPS+ of 86. Teahen isn’t nearly as good defensively, but has a career OPS+ of 98 and can play (and has played) all four corner positions.

I don’t really love Teahen but I’d be fine with Francisco for him; it seems like two very similar players except that Teahen can play 3B. I guess the added value for the Royals is saving cash on BFran? Or maybe it’s just some kind of challenge trade?

I just don’t see how this helps the Royals. It’s not an unfair deal, it just isn’t a net positive for the Royals.

Is Butler really on the market? I saw on that on rotoworld or something.

No one in the organization is saying that. It’s guesswork. Some think the GM doesn’t like him, but there is no real evidence of that, and certainly nothing he’s said supports that.

How about Shoppach, Sowers, Crowe, and Kelvin de la Cruz for Butler and Greinke?

Don’t take this the wrong way, but are you serious?

That I would give up for Grienke. Except Grady Sizemore. And that ain’t happening.

I asked what they’d give for ZG or Butler … my bad.

Sorry. We once had a guy come from Athletics Nation and ask who we would want for Grady Sizemore.

But no one in the Royals top 10.

simply for a decent nickname for Gutierrez. Franklin Gutierrez is merely an underrated defensive outfielder with some upside. Gootz, on the other hand, is awesome.

Hawk Harrelson loves Ross Gload.

Just saying.

I think I like the Royals now.

It’s a disease…must….rec’d….306008’s….post.

… in 2006

1. I think the goal of the offseason is to improve the team, period. Anything that increases the difference between the Royals Runs Scored and Runs Allowed is a good thing.

2. Moving DeJesus to LF and Gutierrez to CF improves the OF’s offense and defense.

3. It’s going to be very hard to get a significant offensive upgrade from trading Teahen. Not every move is going to end up getting the Royals an impact bat. But I wouldn’t turn my nose up at even small upgrades.

DMGM probably hasn’t read Moneyball, much less the Hidden Game of Baseball or a THT annual. Perhaps Ben Franklin would be a good place to start.

repeating your own jokes = cool

That’s how I interpreted the deal going down — Royals have apparently wanted Gutierrez for a while (I’d like to think it’s because of his defense, but as RR notes, it’s probably for other reasons), but the Indians are probably the smartest org in the division, so that’s not going to happen easy. Hence the Francisco offer.

I also agree that switching out Teahen for Francisco is a parallel move. I dunno, it’s all rumors, but thinking about the allegedly aborted Jacobs trade, DMGM should be trying to trade a minor league pitcher for an outfielder, not another crappy first baseman/DH. As I said elsewhere, I realize that the Guillen deal has him boxed in, but hopefully he can trade him at some point next year. If he could get Francisco or someone like him for an appropriate pitcher (which the org supposedly has in spades now), that guy should split time with Teahen or Teahen could move to super utility until Guillen gets moved.

Francisco’s hardly a star, and not really a league average player. then again he’s cheap, and I really do think that, even putting money aside, that Francisco-DDJ-Teahen is a better OF when you account for offense and defense than either Francisco-DDJ-Guillen or Teahen-DDJ-Guillen.

That would require trading a hell of a lot of prospects to get all of the Royals missing pieces. The Royals aren’t close enough to contention for me to worry yet about how big the team’s platoon splits are. They just need better players, period.

hopefully to acquire a big lefty bat. (Dunn)

Have you seen devil_fingers and Gopherballs numbers on how many runs guys like Dunn and Burrell give up on defense and how that severely limits their value? Their hitting is a big positive. Their fielding is a big and measurable negative. They are still valuable players, but they aren’t worth nearly what they’ll cost, unless one of them shockingly slips through the cracks and doesn’t get a big offer from anyone. I’ve completely jumped off of the Dunn and Burrell bandwagon unless they come a lot cheaper than anyone expects.

so, who knows.

Dunn wants to play the OF and isn’t exactly excited about becoming someones first baseman. Given that, how excited do you think he’d be to come to KC to DH. That move might work on paper, but there’s no reason to believe Dunn would be interested in it. Realistically, that idea is a non-starter.

and assuming that Butler plays first well enough so that there’s a DH spot open, then Dunn is worth 3/48 or 4/56 in this market (3.5 WAR in 2009). My off-the-cuff projection has him not being quite that good. More like 3/40 or 4/50. I still think that might be high on his actual market value. I love Adam Dunn — he’s like Matt Stairs on ster — well, that image doesn’ twork anymore. Anyway, I’m not sure paying market value (and given all the homers, I bet Dunn gets overpaid) is a good strategy for the Royals, as it is risky, especiallly on a small budget. And that would be true even if they hadn’t paid at least 150% of Jose Guillen’s 2008 market value.

Given that the Royals weren’t acquiring him for a stretch run, I don’t know what use there would have been in that. I guess they could have tried to negotiate an extension with him, but I don’t see him at that point foregoing free agency so that he can play longer with the Royals. I would have hated giving away years of Nunez for two months of Bradley.

Let’s put it this way — even injured, Mark Grudzelaniak, was worth more than that this year.

I choose not to believe any rumor until it becomes a reality, but if this is true, it is nice to see the Indians appearing to be the more motivated party here. I like Teahen-for-Gutierrez a lot. Not because it is a big upgrade, but because it is a clear upgrade in the short-term with some more upside in the long-term, and it saves money, and it adds service time.