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Projecting the Royals' 2009 Offense with Bill James (Not Really, Though)

P1010081_medium Fangraphs recently added the 2009 Bill James Projections to their site. Cool stuff. I hope they also add the CHONE, Miner, Zips, and Marcels projections this year as they did last year. Royals Review and other SB Nation editors, received (at least some) of the projections earlier, and he already a wrote a bit about it. Now that the rest of the projections are publicly available, I thought it would be a good opportunity to translate them from the raw stats and old-fashioned metrics (BA, OBP, SLG, OPS) into newer metrics and stats like wOBA (Weighted On-Base Average, created by Tom Tango) and its derivative BRAA (batting runs above average) that give the proper relative weights to various events (particularly walks) that even some of the newer stats and metrics such as VORP get wrong. There's a bit of irony here, of course, because according to my (limited) understanding, many of these problems go back to Bill James' of Runs Created. Leaving aside the fact that James probably has little to nothing to do with these projections personally, then, there is an irony in using his projections to generate stats that (at least in part) were created to fix the problems of his Runs Created formula. So what do we have from The Man?

Star-divide

Let me say from the get-go that, in my utterly amateur opinion, the James projections aren't that good. I don't know why. They tend to be overly optimistic regarding power hitters. In post-season discussions about the relative success of different projection systems, I don't recall the Bill James projections ever coming into a serious conversation among the "winners" (generally ZiPS, CHONE, and PECOTA are at the top.). But this was the first full set of "free" projections that came out, and they aren't totally uninformed. Yeah, I could use a Marcels (I'm going to start doing them myself one of these days, and Colin Wyers has already done some for 2009 to tide you over until Tango does his "official" set), which do surprisingly well. However, they don't work as well for young players with less than three years of experience in the majors, and the Royals best players fit that description.

In short, I am not endorsing the James projections. I'm not saying they're worthless, either. I just wanted an excuse to work with converting stuff to wOBA and bRAA and to get an idea of what sort of offense Royals fans might expect, as these projections, while probably not the greatest, aren't completely unrealistic.

Below is a chart with some players that at this point seem likely to play a major role in the KC offense in 2009, or have some chance, or are just on there for entertainment purposes. You wouldn't believe how freaking long it took me to get the data out of the spreadsheet table to an acceptable form in an fanpost (can someone give me some advice on this?), especially relative to setting up all the formulas and stuff. I won't go into explaining the derivation of wOBA and why it's better, as you can find that stuff out by reading the links above and doing google searches and stuff. That and I'd screw it up anyway.You might also check out Stat Corner, who now keep track of wOBA (even for recent minor league season), have a park- and league-adjusted version of FIP called tRA, and have a helpful glossary.

I didn't put everything from the projection here, as it wouldn't fit, and is also pretty confusing. If you want to see the stuff in more detail in order to "check my work," take a look at the Google spreadsheet I made. Yeah, the formatting is terrible. You wouldn't believe how much time I wasted trying to make it decent.

 

Player

PA

AVG

OBP

SLG

OPS

wOBA

bRAA

RV/700

Improvement

Alex Gordon

606

0.269

0.358

0.467

0.825

0.362

12.9

14.9

6.1

Billy Butler

617

0.294

0.357

0.460

0.817

0.357

10.3

11.7

15.8

Ryan Shealy

442

0.278

0.344

0.485

0.829

0.358

7.8

12.4

2.0

Mike Jacobs

489

0.269

0.325

0.515

0.841

0.357

8.2

11.7

4.1

Kila Ka'aihue

364

0.260

0.382

0.484

0.865

0.379

13.0

25.0

12.5

Ross Gload

392

0.294

0.337

0.425

0.762

0.334

-1.5

-2.7

11.9

Mike Aviles

609

0.287

0.322

0.443

0.765

0.332

-3.2

-3.7

-13.4

A.Callaspo

355

0.280

0.335

0.375

0.710

0.317

-6.5

-12.7

-7.1

Mark Grudz

241

0.279

0.336

0.393

0.729

0.324

-3.0

-8.8

-4.8

Miguel Olivo

431

0.243

0.276

0.419

0.695

0.299

-14.6

-23.8

-8.8

John Buck

436

0.229

0.303

0.394

0.697

0.307

-11.7

-18.8

8.2

David DeJesus

586

0.282

0.362

0.421

0.783

0.347

4.6

5.5

-5.6

Mark Teahen

546

0.272

0.342

0.429

0.772

0.340

0.8

1.0

13.7

Jose Guillen

599

0.265

0.322

0.445

0.767

0.334

-2.1

-2.4

2.9

E. German

251

0.273

0.351

0.356

0.706

0.322

-3.4

-9.5

5.7

Tony Pena, Jr.

222

0.241

0.266

0.321

0.587

0.260

-15.1

-47.6

14.8

Mitch Maier

176

0.271

0.318

0.400

0.718

0.316

-3.3

-13.2

1.5

Joey Gathright

250

0.276

0.356

0.321

0.677

0.318

-4.3

-12.0

9.8

 

A brief explanation of what it on the chart and why it's there. You can skip this stuff if you already know this stuff or don't care and buzz down to "Comments."

  • Projected PA are there so that readers can see how the projected playing time effects the overall value of the player, and also to see where one may need to take the James projection with a grain of salt.
  • AVG/OBP/SLG/OPS are put there because we're familiar with them, but mostly because when put alongside wOBA, one can see how the older stats (yes, this includes OPS) can sometimes be deceptive with respect to a players true offensive value.
  • wOBA I've explained above and can be looked up elsewhere. It is set up to be on a OBP scale that people can relate to -- .340 is around average, and so on. I've incorporated steals and caught stealings into this (which Stat Corner does not do) in accordance with what Tango has written elsewhere. Ideally, if the player has "average" power, then wOBA will be about at his OBP. Anything above his OBP shows how much offensive value comes from his power. Although Tango doesn't say so, wOBA seems very  much like an adjusted-to-OBP scale version of what Branch Rickey, in his 1952 (!) Life Magazine article 'Goodbye to Some Old Baseball Ideas' called Batting Rating, which combined OBP and ISO because, as Rickey argues, they are better measures of offensive value than AVG and SLG. This is only one of many ideas in the article that many "good baseball people" have yet to catch up to Rickey on. I wonder if that guy ever did anything else in baseball? Maybe, but I bet it wasn't revolutionary...
  • bRAA is Batting Runs Above Average (projected). I'm trying to leave formulae out of this post, but I can give it to you in the comments if you're too lazy to look it up on Stat Corner. Basically, it's the players wOBA minus the league's wOBA times his plate appearances (more nerdily: [wOBA - lgwOBA/1.15]*PA). Ideally, like Stat Corner, I'd adjust for home park, but I don't know how to, and for most full-time Royals players this didn't make a huge difference this past season. Keep in mind this is with respect to average, not replacement level. Once you use replacement level as the baseline , then we have to adjust for the difference between leagues, which makes Jacobs' projection problematic (it was made when he was on the Marlins). Also, then I'd feel like I need to adjust for position, and then for defensive projection, and, well, I'm not sure these projections are good enough to make that worth doing. Moreover, positional adjustments and replacement level are things that people argue about all the time, and I don't want to get into that here. Maybe, if people like this enough, I'll get more detailed when CHONE, etc. come out. I used the league average from 2008 AL, which has problems, but wouldn't make more than a runs difference, most likely. 
  • RV/700 is bRAA prorated for 700 plate appearances (about a full season on a team with a good offense) so that one can compare different players' projected offense given equal playing time.
  • Improvement uses bRAA from this year over against bRAA from last year. It thus relies on projected playing time. This didn't turn out as well as I'd wanted for some players. I wanted to get an idea of how much the team might improve, but some guys have radically different playing time, or have (sort of) incommensurable 2008 and projected bRAAs because they've switched leagues (Jacobs) or were really hot for a month (Shealy). It's stil sort of interesting.

Comments:

Just a few comments, then, on the above projections and what they might mean. Again, I'm not endorsing Bill James' Projections.

  • Alex Gordon and Billy Butler's projections were already discussed by Royals Review. Let's start with Gordon. For various reasons, I actually think this projection is about right, maybe even a bit conservative. But we aren't here to discuss why I think Alex will have a better OBP and isolated power next season. People might be  "disappointed" by this projection, but that has to do with seeing 3B more in light of A-Rod, David Wright, etc. rather than its historically-based positional adjustment. In any case, he improves offensively by 5.6 runs (a bit more than half a win), which is pretty good. As I've said elsewhere, returning to 2007 form defensively would be an even bigger improvement. One thing this projection in terms of bRAA and RV/700 might show is that, at worst, Gordon will a league-average 1B. He was already a good hitter for a 3B this year. Unless you think, for example, that Evan Longoria's 2008 is the baseline.
  • First base/DH... ah... I just put Gload on there for fun. Certainly DMGM isn't stupid enough to think he has a role on the team at this point. The Shealy projection is really optimistic, I think, but juxtaposing his (and, for that matter, Gordon's) OPS/wOBA with the the OPS and wOBA of Mike Jacobs can tell us a lot. OPS makes Jacobs (whom James projects for a career year, of course) look like the superior hitter. But wOBA and RV/700 tells a different story. The point isn't that I buy this Shealy projection (although, given the change of leagues, parks, etc. I'm not sure it's more generous than Jacobs), but that his .817 OPS turns out, when put on a better metric, to be just as valuble as Jacobs .841. This assumes equal defensive value of course, and speaking of equal value, note that James more realistic Billy Butler projection has Butler, given equal playing time, having an offensively identically valuable year to Mike Jacobs. Much more to say here, but most of it has already been said.
  • For Kila... well... I dunno. I want to believe, but we'll see what the other systems say.
  • AVILANCHE: Some people might probably a bit upset that  my  wOBA conversion has Mike Aviles projected as a below average hitter. But remember, he doesn't walk that much, and the biggest advantage of wOBA is that is properly values walks. Also keep in mind that on this projection (which I actually think is a bit generous to Aviles) he's still an above-average hitter at SS. Aviles isn't so much a concern, wherever he ends up, because he's making the minimum for the next six years. Which is good, because he will probably start declining next year. The bigger concern is Alberto Callaspo. I think the projection might suffer from lack of data, and Callaspo's high-contact low-power game isn't something that the James projections like anyway. We don't know, I guess. Along with questions about his defense, he's a mystery for next year. Definitely worth giving him shot playing full-time rather than overspending on a washed-up veteran, though. Grudz looks like a part-timer (probably somewhere else.)
  • The Catchers. Here's another good example of wOBA forcing us to change our OPS-based opinions. Yup -- Miguel Olivo, even after something of a career offensive year bolstered by a lot of lefties, still projects as slightly worse offensively than John Buck. Keep in mind when looking at bRAA that both guys are catchers...
  • David DeJesus may look like he's getting the shaft here, but projections can't simply pretend 2007 didn't happen. He's also hurt by poor basestealing -- STOP SENDING HIM, TREY. Exactly how valuble he is overall depends on his defense. If he's still around an average defensive CF or even above average in LF, then he's an very good player that many fans don't appreciate.  People don't but this, but even as an average defender in LF this sort of offense is still around average... which leads to
  • Mark Teahen and Jose Guillen. These projections seem about right to me. If Teahen could still play third well, the Royals would have something. Fans will never buy it, but if he can still play  +8 run defense in the LF/RF, he's a league average player (and he might be able to improve on this projection). It's sort of like JoGui, a guy whose glove totally carries his bat.

The rest can be discussed in the comments. Like I said, these projections aren't considered, as far as I know, the most accurate, but they might make for fun discussion, as well as an incentive for me to get a decent relational database. I wouldn't mind maybe doing this when other projections come out, unless people hated this.

And if I can freaking figure out how to do a decent table.

Update, November 16, 2008 5:40 PM EST: Although the only noticable chance that will be evident here is that everyone looks a little bit better with regard to their bRAA and RV/700, I have made a change that will make a difference if I do similar posts along these lines for other projections systems and/or especially posts involving NL free agents. I am projecting the 2009 lgwOBA as .338 for everyone instead of taking last year's as good for both leagues. Basically, I noticed when running through some NL free agents, that their marginal batting above average was really good due to the low NL lgwOBA for 2008 I was using (.333). I then realized that this is probably because Stat Corner's lgwOBA for the NL probably includes pitchers. That's fine for in-season analysis, but for getting free agent value, not so much. Tango writes that lgwOBA these days will usually be between .335 and .340. So .338 fits right in the middle, and that's what I'm going to use from now on. Or until I change my mind again.

By the way, the ZiPs projections for Dunn look better than my initial weighted averages for him, so maybe 3/32 would be a decent price for him... not that he'll be available at that price, of course... but that's another post.

Thanks for pretending to care!

Updated November 20, 5.20 PM or so: Now includes CoCo Crisp on the spreadsheet, if not the chart above just yet. The James projections have him at -5.1 runs with 700 ABs with my baseline.

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Epic post

This might be the finest work product out of Canada since my kitchen cabinets. I might need the weekend to absorb all of this.

by Gopherballs on Nov 14, 2008 3:07 PM EST   0 recs

Maple, eh?

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Nov 14, 2008 4:38 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I thought BJ's Kila projection was...

cute, funny and precious.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Nov 14, 2008 4:17 PM EST   0 recs

It's nothing comapred to his Cal Pickering 2006 Projection, iirc

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 14, 2008 4:19 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

So as a never really into advanced stats guy,

how close is the history of projections like these? I mean, I know they are just something to look at but I really don’t see the point. Why play the season now? We know exactly how each player is going to do. (Sorry for the snarkiness)

I guess I just get tired of all this thought that certain people know how players are going to play 5 months in advance of when the season starts. How historically accurate are these things?

by I need more Esteban on Nov 14, 2008 5:52 PM EST   0 recs

Projections

First, BJ’s projections don’t have the best track record. PECOTA and ZiPS have been the best in recent history (I haven’t yet seen a breakdown of whose 2008 projections were most accurate). Second, no one sees any of these projections as descriptions of a certain future. They just use a lot of factors to come up with what appears to be most likely. But of course, they might be wrong and amazing career years and horrible off years can and will happen sometimes. Third, I don’t know how to tell you how accurate various projection systems have been. I think the best ones are pretty accurate on average, with a fairly large deviation from the mean (accurate for a lot of guys with more than a few big outliers). Interestingly, Nate Silver who created PECOTA says that those projections should be seen as a likely range of stats, as opposed to one single prediction. If you’ve seen a PECOTA page for a player at BP, you’ll see that there are statistical projections in various percentiles (90, 75, 60, 50, etc.), with a weighted mean of these being the projection. But Silver says what is really most accurate and most useful is to say that a given player projects to perform somewhere between his 25th and 75th percentile projection. I think that range is pretty accurate. For instance, if you ran into Nate in a bar back in February and asked him how he thought Jose Guillen would hit in 2008, if he’d had enough drinks that he’d give you the short answer, he probably would have said, “an OPS between .696 and .824.”

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Nov 14, 2008 6:22 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I assume that Nate Silver story is just a hypothetical

since he would never leave his mom’s basement to go to a big boy bar

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 15, 2008 11:43 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Seriously, though

I inferred from the way you put the comment that this actually happened to you

Funny, if you take the average of the optimistic and pessimistic on what you have, you get .760, which would have been a pretty good projection for this year.

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 15, 2008 3:32 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

It was strictly hypothetical

…or the demented fantasies of a stats/politics geek.

PECOTA’s weighted mean projection for JoGui was little further off: .280/.335/.446. I think JoGui underperformed overall. I expect better next year. But really, if you give Nate a handful of data, he’ll tell you how your RFer is going to hit, who is going to win the election by how much and when you’re going to lose your virginity (the last one is easy: if you are a blogger, never).

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Nov 15, 2008 3:57 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

PECOTA, in particular, has done very well

Better than the Vegas oddsmakers. ZIPS and CHONE have been within percentage points of PECOTA the last few years.

The projections are just that, projections, not predictions. Keeping with the Vegas theme, the projections can be used like the statistics for the odds on blackjack hands based on the cards already played. The odds cannot “predict” the next card or hand — blackjack, like baseball, still depends in large part upon factors outside any invidivual’s control (such as luck) — but they can provide a good probability of what is coming next. The guy who can re-calculate the odds on each card may not come out ahead every session, but over time, he is going to do better than those who do not.

Or better yet, here’s an article that I think got linked last time the “why play the game?” issue came up.

by Gopherballs on Nov 14, 2008 7:05 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Didn't CHONE beat PECOTA last year?

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 14, 2008 8:16 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Just barely, but really all of them are close enough for our purposes

I know CHONE edged PECOTA in 2008 (with ZIPS not too far behind) and ZIPS edged or maybe tied with PECOTA in 2007 (with CHONE not too far behind). From what I remember, PECOTA, ZIPS, and CHONE have consistently performed the best over the past few years, and at least a step above the Bill James ones or straight regression analyses like Marcels. There may be others too — I remember an article one year rated Ron Shandler’s projections as one of the best, but I do not recall seeing his included in other years.

by Gopherballs on Nov 14, 2008 8:38 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I wish they all could be plugged into a fantasy values calculator easily, that way I could save some money

I just find it interesting that freely available systems can even compete with PECOTA.

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 14, 2008 8:52 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

yeah, read it

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 14, 2008 10:31 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

you're welcome

but remember that these aren’t my projections, or even my metrics. I just converted one to the other.

And thanks for not mocking my inability to format tables properly.

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 15, 2008 11:32 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

and I should be thanking you, not saying you're welcome

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 15, 2008 11:32 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Curious about adding SB and CS into the wOBA calc

Really great post! Do you happen to have a link to Tom Tango talking about adding SB and CS into the wOBA calculation? I’m curious to know the weights used for those outcomes.

by lightbulb on Nov 15, 2008 2:02 PM EST   0 recs

Never mind

Found ’er.


In the numerator, put +.25 for SB and -.50 for CS.

by lightbulb on Nov 15, 2008 2:04 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

thanks, glad you found it

that’s how you add it into wOBA. If you want to add it do bRAA straightup, the weights are plus .17 SB and minus .33 CS.

Are you a Royals fan? I just haven’t seen you post around here before.

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 15, 2008 3:33 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Cardinals fan...and I've blocked all memories of 1985

First time post here, but I read Royals Review quite a bit, and not just for the schadenfreude.

With so many good bloggers (Rany, Posnanski, you gents) writing and analyzing about the Royals, it’s fun to keep with them.

by lightbulb on Nov 15, 2008 4:01 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

thanks

but I’m just a reader/user/loser. RR is the Man, with underMans NHZ and NYRoyal.

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 15, 2008 4:07 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I'll take "loser" for 500, Alex

:-)

Rowdy Hardy Fan Club member.

by doublestix on Nov 15, 2008 6:22 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I'd fire back

except I just voted Joe Dickerson #14 because I like the phrase “hit tool.”

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 16, 2008 12:08 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Very well done, d_f

I’ll second the comment you had about James’s system being a bit optmistic on power hitters. Just look at the lines for Jacobs and Ka’aihue, for example. I have a sneaking suspicion that they’d be eclipsing their 80th percentile PECOTA projections with those numbers, if not their 90th.

In terms of just general observations, there’s no way Gathright will OBP that high…it’d be a minor miracle if Ryan Shealy approached .485 SLG over a full year…I’m not counting on Gload bounching back that far what with him being a year older…Guillen, Teahen, and DDJ look dead on…I’m hoping Gordon’s OBP projection is a bit lower, than his IsoP looks fairly accurate…and I shouldn’t say anything about the accuracy of Aviles’s projection or y’all might hit me. :P

A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.

by NHZ on Nov 15, 2008 3:39 PM EST   0 recs

Good to see you're still around

I was kidding you elsewhere, but honestly, I do miss your post. You know, you can always re-take you class on Flash if you fail it. It’s only another twelve weeks…

I also think Aviles is more likely to be between .720 to .750 OPS, but even a .710 would still make him an average offensive shortstop. So even with average defense (and he was above average this year), that’s still a league-average player for $400,000.

I think Kila is more like to have Shealy’s OPS (but with a lower average and more walks and power), and Shealy is more likely (playing full-time) to have one a bit better than Gload’s (about .780), except that Shealy is actually a good defender, rather than just being called a good defender as if it’s so.

I don’t know if it was clear in the original post, but I think Gordon will have a few more walks than that — closer to .370 than .350, and a bit more power, but that seems about right. Maybe better contact, too. The main thing with Gordon is that just returning to his 2007 level of defense would be a bigger help to the team than just about any likely offensive scenario. We’ll see what happens.

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 15, 2008 3:55 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Grad school search stuff is kind of consuming my life...

which is a bit annoying, since I still have regular classes to deal with. Not to mention, a life.

Oh and yeah, I wasn’t dissing Aviles’s chances, just pointing out that I would not be surprised at ALL if he wasn’t superman again.

A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.

by NHZ on Nov 15, 2008 10:36 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Grad school search stuff is kind of consuming my life…which is a bit annoying, since I still have regular classes to deal with. Not to mention, a life.

A life??? You’re a blogger, sir. You can’t have a life. Leave your ID at the receptionist desk. You are no longer welcome here.

Oh and yeah, I wasn’t dissing Aviles’s chances, just pointing out that I would not be surprised at ALL if he wasn’t superman again.

At this point, I think most would be surprised if he were Superman again. I would guess that the question is, will he be average or above average.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Nov 15, 2008 10:43 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Okay, fine, I'll check my life at door. Happy? :)

I’ll be interested in what PECOTA comes up with for a collapse rate for Avilanche. I believe he’ll do okay next year, but remember Retro find out just how rare his case is? Hopefully he’s late-blooming Edgar Renteria or something (pounds lefties).

A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.

by NHZ on Nov 15, 2008 11:08 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Good enough

Yeah, Aviles’s downside possibility should be significant. His 25th percentile projection could/should be awful.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Nov 16, 2008 12:22 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Furcal

Symborski just posted his ZiPS projections for the Dodgers. This is of interest to be mostly because Furcal is a free agent SS desired by a lot of teams, including the Royals. Symborski has him projected (and click the link for the full details) for .286/.358/.411 with 22-27 steals. However, he is only projected for 481 PA in 105 games. My “wOBA-fied” version of this is a .349 wOBA. Up against the NL 2008 league wOBA of .333, that comes out to a projected bRAA of 6.5 (RV/700 of 9.5). Symborski also projects him for average defense, which is about the range most of the past stats and CHONE’s projections have him at, more or less a few runs.

Basically, then, a 6.5 bRAA + a prorated positional adjustment of +5 runs for SS (about two-thirds of of a season times the ~7.5 runs for SS) = 11.5 runs above average, plus 21 runs for replacement level = 32.5 WAR, or just over three wins (10.5 runs = win).

Assuming $4.84M/WAR, which might turn out to be wrong, but is extrapolated from the past, and taking yearly inflation and decline into account, this projection sees his market value at approx:

1/14.5, 2/27.8, 3/39.5, 4/49.2, 5/56.3, 6/64.1

I do not endorse or deny the projection and corresponding values… Heck, while I’m wasting time, let’s check the James projection… long story short, it has him pretty much the same — more PAs, worse rate stats. It comes out to 4.2 bRAA. Meh, about the same.

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 15, 2008 4:38 PM EST   0 recs

Good stuff
1/14.5, 2/27.8, 3/39.5, 4/49.2, 5/56.3, 6/64.1

I actually think he’ll end up getting something like this, particularly the 3 or 4-year contracts. Without the injury, he’d get considerably more, but even in this era of flush coffers, GM’s worry about back injuries.

I noticed that once top prospect Chin-lung Hu isn’t projected to come into his own yet…or perhaps ever. One question I have about these ZiPS projections, how is he coming up with his playing time projections? He’s got nine SS’s with about 300 PA’s or more. While one or two of them could arguably get significant playing time at another position, clearly these are not all realistic playing time projections, are they? I mean, Abreu, DeJesus, Hu, Chavez, Berroa, Maza and Pedroza can’t all get 300+ PA’s. And the same is true for every other position on the team, and for every team. So what are we to make of the projected PA’s?

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Nov 15, 2008 4:50 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I've never been much impressed

With Hu’s bad to be honest.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Nov 15, 2008 6:00 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Bad = bat

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Nov 15, 2008 6:00 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

He does have a bad bat

A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.

by NHZ on Nov 15, 2008 11:17 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Oh

And ZIPS does not project accurate playing time, it assumes most everyone plays a significant amount of time.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Nov 15, 2008 6:01 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Or as Dan puts it:

Q. Oh my God, my favorite team is projected to get 15000 games! Are you the biggest idiot ever?

A. I’m projecting equivalent production. A player with a projection of 230/270/400 is projected to hit that in the majors if he got that estimated playing time in the majors. A correct projection could be 230/270/400 in the majors or 260/320/450 in AAA or 290/360/500 in AA, depending on the league levels of scoring and the park factors.

Q. How is playing time calculated?

A. Based solely on recent playing time. ZiPS, as a consequence, only projects injuries to the extent that the injuries were properly reflected by the previous playing time.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Nov 15, 2008 6:03 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

So the playing time is largely hypothetical

It isn’t so much a projection of likely playing time as a way to say, “if he gets 450 PA’s, then he’ll likely have these stats.” And that gets me to my underlying point to d_f about Furcal. While I think these projections are very useful, I don’t think their projection of playing time is especially useful. ZiPS doesn’t claim any particular insight into how healthy Furcal will be or how much Torre will want to play Hu. Long story short, 481 PA in 105 games isn’t a reliable projection.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Nov 15, 2008 6:19 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Yeah, but his rv/700s aren't much higher

and I think it’s pretty unlikelly he’ll get 700 PAs next year anyway, wherever he is.

In other words, I’m pretty comfortable saying he’s a 3.25 WAR player at most.

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 16, 2008 12:10 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

In other words, I’m pretty comfortable saying he’s a 3.25 WAR player at most.

Wait, at 481 PA’s, he’s about a 3.25 WAR. And I don’t think 481 PA’s is the most he could reasonably be expected to get. That might be a reasonable projection, but it certainly isn’t the reasonable topside. I don’t think anyone would be shocked for him to play a full season as a regular (he’s done that more often than not in his career). Now I think it is most likely that he’ll spend some time on the DL. But one 15-day DL stint plus a normal number of days off would put him at over 600 PA’s. So unless ZiPS is way off base about his projected stats, it seems like his “at most” WAR is well over 3.25. Right?

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Nov 16, 2008 12:28 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Sorry, I wasn't clear

at ZiPS projected 481 PAs, Furcal’s value rounds to 3.1 WAR. At 700 PAs, his value rounds to about 3.4 WAR. Let’s call it 3.5. I’m comfortable saying he’s going to pay somewhere in between there, so about 3.25-3.35 WAR would be more accurate.

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 16, 2008 12:40 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Makes sense to me

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Nov 16, 2008 2:07 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Yeah... I'm starting over with the NL guys...

I’ll post an update about it. It doesn’t affect this FanPost much itself (it just improves everyone a tiny bit across the board), but it does effect evaluating NL players in the future. Basically, I’m going to to start projecting a .338 wOBA across the board.

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 16, 2008 5:25 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

sorry, a .338 LEAGUE wOBA across the board

which doesn’t effect the projections themselves, just the baseline they’re compared too. I was running some NL free agents, and they all looked awesome… I suspect it’s because the .333 lgwOBA for last year includes pitchers.

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 16, 2008 5:26 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Outstanding work

Sorry the table took so long. I blame Dayton Moore.

Oh Mike Aviles, must you regress to the mean so quickly?

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Nov 15, 2008 6:00 PM EST   0 recs

I'm telling you

it isn’t that bad for a shortstop. In fact, once you add in the positional adjustment for SS and his +5 defensive projection and AL replacement level adjustment, then he begins to look like a 3 to 3.5 WAR player.

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 16, 2008 12:12 AM EST to parent up