Coco Crisp Traded to Royals for Ramon Ramirez
Yuck. Really, Dayton?
11 months ago
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I don’t mind Crisp, but I really liked RamRam. Ah well, DM is good at finding relievers.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 10:01 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Upon a look at his stats
Completely underwhelming. We get just two years of a below average outfielder who makes a good amount of money and can play great defense, but has okay OBA skills, not much SLUG and very little upside. We didn’t give up a ton – RamRam is a really nice reliever, but probably replaceable – still, I’d rather we gave up actual talent to get young guys with real upside.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 10:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i'm genuinely curious and haven't looked up the stats
How much better is Coco than DJ or Mitch?
Don't Stop Believing!
by KC Chris on Nov 19, 2008 10:11 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Not better than DJ
Probably better than Mitch, but not by a ton. Has more power I think.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 10:17 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i didn't think he was
better than DJ, but i haven’t looked up any comparable stats or anything and assumed I was a homer. So if Coco is not any better than DJ, does the trade make any sense unless we now trade DJ?
Don't Stop Believing!
by KC Chris on Nov 19, 2008 10:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
DM
Wants to move DJ to left and create a great defensive outfield.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 10:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
DDJ's +9 projection in left
Surely outweighs Crisp’s minus 3 in CF and Guillen ’s -11 in right.
Marcels has Crisps about a win worse than Teahen with the bat.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 10:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Crisp was significantly better defensively...
in 2007 and battled various injuries last year which may have negatively impacted his defensive metrics for 2008. I think you’re undervaluing his true defensive worth.
by djk royal on Nov 19, 2008 10:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm just going off Chone's projections
which take age and past performance into account.
Injuries are part of a players performance history.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 10:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well, if Dayteon doesn't make any other moves this one would elminate
Gload and Gathright.
Go Royals!
by BabyBlues on Nov 19, 2008 10:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
but why move the superior defender to a lesser position? It just made me think that DJ is on the block, which I would not be happy about unless we got a lot. I could be 100000% wrong, and I’d be happy to keep DJ in LF.
Don't Stop Believing!
by KC Chris on Nov 19, 2008 10:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
mmm, most likely still Teahen, but for Ronny Cedeno, or Mike Fontenot or both
Go Royals!
by BabyBlues on Nov 19, 2008 10:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If Fontenot isn't in the trade
it’s another dumbshit move
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 10:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Dayton has to trade Teahen to save Gload's job!!!
Go Royals!
by BabyBlues on Nov 19, 2008 10:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Coco should have
won a Gold Glove in CF in 2007. He has no arm to speak of (think Johnny Damon with just a little more strength in his arm) but he covers a ton of ground and can was a huge help to the Sox these past few years when in CF. He has battled some injuries in Boston after starting off well his first year here but was healthy down the stretch in ’08 and performed well (.305 ave, .368 obp in Aug and .375, .444 in Sept/Oct). Plus, he gives us a legitimate leadoff hitter and allows DeJesus to move out of the leadoff spot. I say not a bad pickup…
by Rhody Royals on Nov 19, 2008 11:42 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
positivity?
you might get banned…..
by I need more Esteban on Nov 19, 2008 11:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess no matter how much we rave about the bullpen, Meche, etc.
pointing out that GMDM hasn’t acquired a single average position player is “unfair.”
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 11:45 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
No that is fair
but writing off pickups before they’ve played a game for us isn’t, to me. Is Crisp going to be a great pickup?….mmm I’m leaning towards no based on past performances and age, but can I remain optimistic that our FO knows what they’re doing? Yes.
by I need more Esteban on Nov 19, 2008 11:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not writing it off
I am criticizing it. Coco Crisp has played more than enough games to evaluate him. Games not in a KC Royals uniform also count for his projection.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 3:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, that .330 OBP will be a real boon to the team
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 11:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Legit leadoff hitter?
Why, because he can steal bases? His OBA is 30 points below DJs.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 11:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The difference in '08
was only about 20 points and that was with Crisp being in and out of the lineup all year. His last two months of ‘08 were much better than the early part of the season when he was riding the pine because of the Sox high hopes for Ellsbury and because of injuries. Look, I’m not saying that Crisp is the be-all, end-all at leadoff hitters but he is more than capable of being a leadoff hitter and allows the Royals to move Dejesus out of the leadoff spot. It also gives them flexibility to either have Teahen come off the bench or to make another deal. They gave up a pretty good (not great) 27-year-old relief pitcher coming off a career year for a starting CF. I don’t think they gave up all that much for a year of a guy looking to rebuild his stock a little to where it was when the Sox got him.
by Rhody Royals on Nov 19, 2008 12:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Except
It was right in line with his career OBA. He’s about a .330 OBA guy.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 1:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But
That includes 2006 when Crisp was hurt (thumb injury?) from about the first week or so of the season and ended up at .317 and .330 in ’07 when, again, he was injuried. Otherwise, he is closer to .340. Not much of a difference but I think it helps a little. I just like being able to move Dejesus to a more productive spot in the lineup where, if Crisp and Aviles do their jobs, he can drive someone in.
Thanks for the discussion, I don’t usually get into these too often but like the back-and-forth. Out here in Sox nation it’s impossible to find anything to talk about that doesn’t revolve around the Sox or Pats (even the Celt’s fall short).
by Rhody Royals on Nov 19, 2008 1:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Once again
Injuries and injury laden years are part of past performance and count toward the projection.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 3:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This means
Soria won’t be moving out of the closer role anytime soon
Mike Jacobs you're 2009 AL MVP
by eboston on Nov 19, 2008 10:21 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
IF ITS NOT BROKE, DON'T FIX IT
CHONE projections:
DDJ CF defense: +3
Crisp CF defense: minus 3
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 10:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
to be fair
PMR has Crisp as about average this year, and DDJ at minus 10 runs or so
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 10:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
projections are projections...
nobody knows until the season is over.
Don't forget to send your broken maples to the US Forest Service.
by 306008 on Nov 19, 2008 12:40 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Great, so let's just get a random assortment of players
sure, they all have projections, but who knows how it will turn out!
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 3:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
nice thought.
Don't forget to send your broken maples to the US Forest Service.
by 306008 on Nov 19, 2008 3:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Noticed that too
It’s like Dayton decided to end the argument, by getting rid of the pieces being used in favor of it (Nunez,RamRam, Mahay will go too I bet).
by AxDxMx on Nov 19, 2008 1:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Bad trade, on first glance
As I posted on the other thread:
Chone CF projection: minus 3
Marcels bRAA: minus 6.4
Arms ratings the past three years in CF:
2005: minus 16.5
2006: minus 4.9
2007: minus 0.2
Let’s generously call that minus 1
So… minus 10.4 = about Minus one win.
+.25 wins for CF + 2.5 wins for AL replacement = 2.25 minus 1 =
1.25 WAR player over full time. I guess that’s worth also $5.75M, but…
given that Ramirez outpitched Soria last year, this doesn’t look to smart. Well, at least we still have Leo Nunez.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 10:21 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Don't forget the $8 million option for 2010!
Can’t wait to pick that up.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 10:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Mistake
should be 1.75 WAR. Math mistake. That’s better, but still assumes he plays full-time. Still don’t think he’s as good as Ramirez, and he makes more than $5M/yr more…
I’d make a joke, but I stil think we need about 5-10 more of these brilliant acquisitions before we have enough data to judge DMGM’s evaluation of position players.
At least crisp seems like a guy who will probably be above replacement level, which would make him better than Gload, TPJ, Gathright, Guillen, or even Callaspo this past year.
But they get to keep Soria as a closer, so that have that going for them.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 10:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This is another one of those trades
where if you look at in a complete vacuum and ignore salaries, it doesn’t look too bad.
Once you start to stray outside of that vacuum though and look at salaries, service time, and other players affected, it’s not nearly as clear.
by Top Ramen on Nov 19, 2008 10:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
I would put it this war: if you look at in a vacuum, it’s not too clear.
When you look at the other stuff, it’s clear that DMGM got the short end of the stick.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 10:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
"Given that Ramirez outpitched Soria last year."
…What?! Who are you kidding? – TL
[In 2008] Kila Ka’aihue had the best on-base percentage of any hitter in the minor leagues. - Joe Posnanski, 11/9/2008 ... Ergo, let's give him a shot at first base in KC in 2009.
by timlacy on Nov 19, 2008 10:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
in my face
Soria did have the superior ERA and more saves (AWESOME stat, by the way)
All Ramirez did was have a better FIP, xFIP, tRA, and pitch more innings.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 11:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
what the fuk is fip xfip tra
NOTHING..by your analysis Soria should have gotten traded for Crisp
Ramirez did have an ERA of like 10 last year. Moore simply thinks relievers are fickly and one year wonders. Gobble and Peralta were ok last year and sucked this year…..Nunez and Ramirez had career years and should be traded while their stock is high
What if Gobble and Peralta bounce back (i know its hard to imagine) and Ramirez and Nunez are awful next year…..
by GobbleforCyoung on Nov 19, 2008 2:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ramirez had an ERA of like 10 last year?
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Nov 19, 2008 2:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Gobble's sucked against RH batters for a long time
Trey just decided to have him face more of them than in years past, which lead to the overall crappy numbers.
by Top Ramen on Nov 19, 2008 2:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Is it too late to undo the Howell-Gathright trade?
by Top Ramen on Nov 19, 2008 10:25 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Why undo it it
when the Royals just re-did it!
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 10:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
162 game average
Coco
YEARS G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
4.83 162 605 90 169 33 5 12 65 48 89 26 10 .280 .331 .409 .740
Teabag
YEARS G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
3.28 162 596 83 160 34 7 14 74 55 137 10 3 .268 .332 .421 .753
by wetleg on Nov 19, 2008 10:36 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
What gets me
Is that we’re probably going to deal either Teahen or DJ, and replace him with Crisp, which makes our offense WORSE. Wasn’t that our big problem last year? Offense?
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 10:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well,
replacing Teahen/DDJ with Crisp is less of a downgrade next year than replacing them with Pie.
So there’s that.
by Top Ramen on Nov 19, 2008 10:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yah, got a placeholder until Orlando is ready :)
Go Royals!
by BabyBlues on Nov 19, 2008 10:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's true
but it doesn’t matter whether it’s offense or defense — the most generous projections have Crisp being equal to Teahen, but he’s older and more expensive. Needless to say, he far inferior to DDJ.
But hey, he’ll be better than Jose Guillen, and he’s not one of Allard’s boys, so slightly less embarrassment for DMGM = worth the money.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 10:56 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Transaction oracle should have their projections for Crisp and Ramirez up soon
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 10:39 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Dayton went Coo-Coo for Coco Crisp?
Go Royals!
by BabyBlues on Nov 19, 2008 10:40 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
The dichotomy
Between the reaction here and on Royals Corner is striking. The “this trade is AWESOME!!!111” posts are a bit much.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 10:49 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I like how they've been one-starring your posts that aren't 100% in support of it
They’re a bit strong with their man-love of all things Dayton over there.
by Top Ramen on Nov 19, 2008 10:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It hurts my feelings
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 10:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I can't read that place
I’m sorry, Retro, but you are a better person than me. Every time I read it, I think that most (not all) of the posters are morons, DMGM family members, or both.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 10:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What's amazing is that some look at it in terms of
Jacobs > Gload
Crisp > Gathright
Big win, and all it cost was two relief pitchers !!!!!
When in actuality, it cost 4 relief pitchers, 3 of them very good, to get to average-to slightly below average production out of 1B and CF.
by Top Ramen on Nov 19, 2008 12:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If you take a step back...
Moore traded two relievers coming off of career years for Jacobs and Crisp. Relievers are inherently un-predictable and replaceable. Jacobs would have had the third highest OPS on the team last year and he’s right handed. Crisp would have had the fourth highest OPS on the team last year and he plays a premium defensive position well.
I realize that there are flaws with Jacobs (terrible OBP, baserunning, defense) and Crisp (limited offensive upside, etc…) but these two players make the team better for the next couple of seasons and we only gave up two relievers. Could Moore have done better, I don’t know, but if he truly believes he can replace the two relievers adequately then he did improve the team for 2009.
by djk royal on Nov 19, 2008 10:50 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
As state above
In a vacuum, these are good “value” deals. Jacobs is more valuable than Nunez, Crisp more valuable than RamRam (arguably).
But these moves don’t make sense for a ballclub like this. We should be getting young guys with upside who don’t cost that much. Jacobs and Crisp are both near 30, make nearly $10 million combined, and both have below average to awful OBAs. Crisp actually makes our offense worse if we replace Teahen or DJ with him.
It seems like DM doesn’t want to give up much and wants to get guys with limited upside. I guess I’d rather he give up actual value to get players with actual upside once in awhile.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 10:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think it's becoming obvious that GMDM want to win in 2009 and 2010.
by djk royal on Nov 19, 2008 10:56 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah
he just doesn’t know how.
Look at combined stats — Jacobs and Crisp were both around replacement level players last year. They will cost around $9M this year. Nunez and Ramirez may not be great shakes (well, Ramirez was the third best _player_on the Royals last year behind Meche and Greinke, and one of the top 10 relievers in the AL, but I know what you’re saying), but together they’ll make less than $1M in 2009.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 10:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see how you can say Teahen is better than Crisp.
… when you factor in positions and defense.
by djk royal on Nov 19, 2008 11:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm just going off the marcels and choneprojections, djk
that’s all. Then adjusting for position. The projections might be wrong.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 11:09 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The projections may end up being right...
I just think it would inherently be hard for a projection to factor in injuries effectively. I think this may be a case where you would have to rely more on scouts.
by djk royal on Nov 19, 2008 11:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
thankyou
if you don’t think Rosa is going to come up and post a 3 something ERA well he will….Robinson Tejada already did that last year so expect him to improve….Gobble or Peralta will bounce back while the other will be D for A by May
Lets not forget Bale came off the DL and DOMINATED so Mahay and Bale are already set as left handed relievers
by GobbleforCyoung on Nov 19, 2008 2:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you're assuming that Trey
will use Yimmy appropriately for him to bounce back.
Don't Stop Believing!
by KC Chris on Nov 19, 2008 2:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There's also...
…the douche bag factor. All you smart guys with all your fancy statistics, and intelligent analysis, blah blah blah, are missing one thing: the Royals just upped their douche bag quotient significantly.
by self loather on Nov 19, 2008 10:54 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
Hopefully this doesn't turn into an Eli Marerro situation
Guy who was playing on a playoff caliber team upset about being traded to the Royals.
by Top Ramen on Nov 19, 2008 10:56 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm new...
to all these fancy-pants statistics. Is there a site you can point me to for Crisp’s and Jacob’s 2009 Doucheness Projections?
by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 19, 2008 11:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My, my, my
What negativity! How suprising!
Seriously, Ramirez looks like he’ll be a pretty good bullpen guy for the next few years, but I’m not so sure we can expect repeats of last year’s performance. His HR/9 over 7 years in the minors was 0.98. His MLB career HR/9 before last season was 0.75. Last year, it magically dropped to 0.25. You can probably credit some of that drop to leaving the rockies, but that’s a big drop, and we don’t know if it’s for real at this point.
Ramirez was traded at the height of his value of his career to date while Crisp was arguably traded at the low point of his career to date, and even now, it doesn’t look too one-sided. They’re about the same age, and should provide about the same value. The difference for the Royals the money which makes me not crazy about this deal. On the other hand, Coco Crisp helps the team a lot, especially if Teahen is traded for a middle infielder, and you can fill Ramirez’s spot from within for free by bringing up Carlos Rosa.
I think if you can complement this move by moving Teahen for a middle infielder and perhaps a middle reliever, you could be looking at a borderline contending Royals team in 2009. And you could be looking at Grienke signing a below market long term contract with the newly winning Royals. The trade isn’t fantastic, but it isn’t terrible, and it makes the team better.
by kcdc1 on Nov 19, 2008 10:56 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
There's buying low
and there’s buying guys who have $9M in salaries coming off replacement-level campaigns.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 11:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Come on bro
This trade is right up your alley—it’s a trade for defense, the new OBP! Crisp was injured all last year, so the stats weren’t great, but he is widely considered a very good defensive centerfielder and until last year, the stats widely agreed. Throwing out last year’s season of playing through injuries, Crisp is probably 5-10 runs better than DDJ in CF, and DDJ is probably 4-6 million runs better than Guillen in LF. How many wins does 6,000,010 runs translate to over the course of a season?
by kcdc1 on Nov 19, 2008 11:09 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Once again
age and injuries are part of performance history…
Funny post, though
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 11:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+ 1
I think if you lined up 10 scouts nearly all of them would take Crisp over DDJ defensively. This ultimately improves our outfield defense in LF and CF.
by djk royal on Nov 19, 2008 11:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, OK,
I guess I think objective performance rather than scouting opinion is what wins games, but that’s just me.
/snark
Sorry… Couldn’t resist. Yeah, I would have thought Crisp was better, too. Just give me a minute and I’ll post the evidence I’m basing my opionions on step-by-step.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 11:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree, now if we would ust be able to trade Guillen instead of Teahen, we would have a nice outfield.
Go Royals!
by BabyBlues on Nov 19, 2008 11:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
My stories a lot like yours only more interesting because it involves robots!
by AvilesRotY on Nov 19, 2008 12:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No doubt this improves our defense
It also worsens our offense
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 11:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Teahen/Crisp
That much of a drop? Really? Even factoring in improved baserunning and the boost you can now get by trading Teahen?
I’m calling the offense either improved or unharmed by this move. Where it hurts you is pitching. Specifically, the bullpen. Where Ramirez played.
by kcdc1 on Nov 19, 2008 11:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I am not going to speculate as to future moves
I am saying as of today, if Crisp starts and Teahen sits, our offense is now worse.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 11:27 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Probably not
But what’s the point of making our offense slightly worse and adding $5.5 million to the payroll and losing our second best reliever? To make our defense better?
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 11:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not defending or lambasting the trade yet...
My initial reaction was WTF!!!! but I’m starting to even out on it a little bit.
I think the point that someone made about the inherent unpredictability of Middle Relief pitchers liked RamRam does point out that we traded him at a high point in value.
Would I have rather gotten a younger, cheaper, better option for RamRam? Sure, but the fact might have just been it wasn’t out there (keep in mind, other GM’s realize the unpredictability of MR pitchers also)
by GoBabies!! on Nov 19, 2008 11:42 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Then don't trade RamRam!
If there’s not a good trade out there, don’t make a trade!
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 11:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I Heard This
On ESPN radio . I just woke up and turned on the radio to hear the news; I’m getting better. I think I’ll live now.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Nov 19, 2008 1:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess you have to...
assume that Teahen is all but gone, too, at this point. And that any deal involving him (if not the Cubs/Fontenot deal) is going to include a middle infielder making less money than Teahen.
Or, in my wildest of pipe dream deals, Guillen and his contract are unloaded for a younger, cheaper middle infielder.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 19, 2008 11:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If Moore Could
Dump Guillen and add Rivera (yes, I’m still on that bandwagon) this would be a good deal.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Nov 19, 2008 1:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You're right
This trade sucks if all it does is push Teahen to the bench and Gathright off the roster. It only makes sense if you do something with Teahen or Guillen. I assume the Royals will.
by kcdc1 on Nov 19, 2008 12:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not in love with the money he's owed
but who honestly cares, its not OUR money. Apparently DM has the green light on upping payroll. I’d leave it at that, as long as in the future we don’t get limited by “budget constraints”.
btw, what is replacement level for a CF? And if Jacobs is used solely against RHP he will be extremely productive.
Alex Gordon in '08
by RoyalJHWKR on Nov 19, 2008 11:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But
It is money that cannot be used for a Greinke extension, signing other FAs, etc.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 11:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Spending money may make the Grinke signing possible.
Grinke wanted to know that Dayton wanted to build a winner in KC, maybe this will get him to sign an extention?
Go Royals!
by BabyBlues on Nov 19, 2008 12:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I dont know what the hell you are saying!!!
Replacement players don’t hit 32 homeruns in 470 at bats!!!!
Replacement players are considered by some scouts as THE BEST CF IN BASEBALL - he played next to MANNY FOR GODSAKE
by GobbleforCyoung on Nov 19, 2008 2:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They do
when they OBP .299 and are -20 runs on defense at first base in the NL.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 3:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
fail to see
how this makes the team better. Spending money in one place means less money spent in another and we are spending more for a similar players. We are not getting on base more and we are older.
RamRam and Nunez were really our best trade commodities with the heightened value of middle relievers these days. Just don’t see Teahan getting us much in return.
by wetleg on Nov 19, 2008 11:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Significantly Improved defense and marginally improved offense
The outfield defense is clearly improved. Crisp probably pushes Teahen to the bench at this point, so offensively it’s a wash, except that you can now trade Teahen for a middle infielder. Which will certainly further help the defense, and depending on who you get, will probably help the offense as well since Callaspo is no great shakes.
by kcdc1 on Nov 19, 2008 11:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think it is terrible
I think this is the worst trade DM has ever made.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 11:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1111111111!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111111!111
Marriage is a great institution, for those that like being in institutions.
by fats on Nov 19, 2008 12:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Pfffffft
I dont even know what to think.. my first reaction is WHAT THE F*CK!.. now we have Coco, Teahen, Guillen, and Dejesus… you’d have to believe teahen or dejesus is on the block now…
So we get rid of our best relieve that isnt a closer and we get F’n Coco Pebbles in return.. i think we could have packaged Ramon with something else to a different team for a much better player than Coco..
Im really not happy at all about this if it does turn out to be 100% finalized..
But in the end i guess we have one of the best defensive centerfielders a preety good leadoff bat that CAN steal bases.. maybe ill like it more one day but as ive right now i feel sick to my stomach
ugh.
by focs on Nov 19, 2008 11:08 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
One thing that's become clear this offseason
No reliever (other than Soria) is guaranteed to be here multiple years. Sisco, Burgos, Nunez, Ramirez, HoRam, Howell*.
* Probably should’ve been in the pen anyway.
by Top Ramen on Nov 19, 2008 11:20 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Although it is a good rumor right now
it still isn’t confirmed, is it?
by I need more Esteban on Nov 19, 2008 11:22 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Not confirmed
But 810 has pretty much said it is a done deal.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 11:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
MLB is citing 810.
They called Gary Patterson as K-States new head coach last week…
by wetleg on Nov 19, 2008 11:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe the Royals can still get some cash in the deal
by Top Ramen on Nov 19, 2008 11:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
or there's a
3rd team involved and the deal isn’t done yet because we’re trying to hash out which AAA middle infielder and high-A relief pitching prospect we want for Greinke.
OK, just kidding… sort of.
Don't Stop Believing!
by KC Chris on Nov 19, 2008 11:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, pitching is the currency of baseball...
…and GMDM just spent some.
I do wonder if this scuttles the Teahen-Cubs trade. If Cedeno is the main target, probably not. If Pie is, probably yes.
I wonder if Moore already has plans for stocking the bullpen now that he got rid of our 3 best, after Soria. (counting the HoRam for Orlando trade here) Is he going to use the guys in the minors (Musser, Lowery, maybe Rosa, maybe Lumsden is OK in the pen, despite failing as a starter?) or does he expect to just pick up who he can when he can?
Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!
by cmkeller on Nov 19, 2008 11:40 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Time will tell
the thing that we know Moore can do is build a bullpen, though. Look at RamRam. We acquired him for JDLR when the Rockies had written him off. I really liked RamRam and am sad to see him go, but I do trust Moore to build the bullpen back up. Rosa and Cortes could be seeing time next season.
by I need more Esteban on Nov 19, 2008 11:42 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I expect Cortes is targeted for the rotation
No injury history, spending the winter reportedly learning a new pitch…
Rosa is probably expected to at least start out in the pen, given his injury issues.
Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!
by cmkeller on Nov 19, 2008 11:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I take back the part of my comment
that indicated some hope for Lumsden. The guy’s doing worse in winter ball than he did in AAA, is you can believe it. Hard to believe that at this point in time, it looks like the White Sox got the better of the MacDougal trade.
Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!
by cmkeller on Nov 19, 2008 12:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's why I said
“at this point in time.” We all see what a washout Mac the 9th became in Chicago, and I’m sure we expected Lumsden to have done something for us by now. Cortes is still future.
Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!
by cmkeller on Nov 19, 2008 12:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Is it just me or did some of our biggest strengths juuuuust get dumped for two questionable position players?
To create a two headed monster with the combined name of Coco Jacobs??
At least Wally Joyner's not on the team....
by tcon125 on Nov 19, 2008 11:41 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
The Ramirez for Crisp you are probably right on
but I wouldn’t call Leo Nunez one of our strengths. I think Jacobs is going to be very valuable for us this season. No way of knowing, but that’s what I think.
by I need more Esteban on Nov 19, 2008 11:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I guess it isn't confirmed. But here are my quick thoughts on on this trade, and how it might still improve the 2009 OF
OK, so I put it into a spreadsheet, and then tried to paste… but the formatting is beyond primitive, sorry it’s not clear. The projections aren’t mine. The offensive projections are from Tango’s Marcels, converted to runs above average. Defense is from CHONE’s projections, which are more problematic, but do combine 3 years of STATS and BIS info, regression to the Fans Scouting Report (which, believe it or not, holds up pretty well) depending on playing time, and adjusts for age. I think convert that total to wins above or below average, then add in positional adjustments and AL replacement level. All this assumes full-time playing, of course, and 700 ABs. Crisp and DDJ have recent injuries, so that does effect how one might see how much they play in the future. I didn’t include arms because the data isn’t out yet, but it would almost certainly hurt Crisp and DDJ. I gotta go, so this is quick…
Crisp Cf Corner
Offense -6.40 -6.40
Defense -3.00 5.00
Wins -0.90 -0.13
Position 0.25 -0.75
Replace 2.50 2.50
Total (cf) 1.85 (lf)1.62
DDJ Cf Corner
Offense 2.60 2.60
Defense3.00 9.00
Wins 0.53 1.10
Position 0.25 -0.75
Replace 2.50 2.50
Total (cf)3.28 (lf)2.85
Teahen Corner
Offense 0.90
Defense 4.00
Wins 0.47
Position -0.75
Replace 2.50
Total 2.22
As you can see, DDJ is projected to be the best player in either the corner or center. Teahen is better in the corner than Crisp either place. You can disagree with the projections, of course, I just want people to see where I’m coming from — the projections aren’t half-baked, at least. However, I do see a way that this trade could improve the OF… I think this speaks for itself.
JoGui Corner
Offense -4.90
Defense -11.00
Wins -1.51
Position 0.25
Replace 2.50
Total 1.24
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 11:43 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I still don't trust defensive metrics
period
They are unstable, and fail to take many factors into the final result…
by GoBabies!! on Nov 19, 2008 11:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
OK
then just through them out altogether… and Coco’s still worse than Teahen and DDJ
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 11:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
the totals are wins above replacement
later… gotta eat
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 11:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you are probably right with your conclusion
I would take DDJ over coco in either field, but word of warning on marcels. Marcels doesn’t actually forecast, it just says that what happened in the past will repeat, in doing so weighting recent performance highest. Thus its next to useless for young players, or ones that have recently suffered statistically due to injuries. For DDJ and Coco, its probably workable for the time being. But if you make an assumption that coco will be healthy (which may or may not be a little radical depending on which side you are on), its gonna throw your numbers off.
Aside: just another reason why I have never been a fan of tango, but neither here nor there, i don’t want to get into another argument with him.
by ZeppelinDZ on Nov 19, 2008 2:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's why I don't use it for young players -- all these guys have decent playing histories
It’s more reliable than James, and when I wrote it I didn’t have reliable projections for the other guys. Even when the ZiPS Oracles some out, there will be some baseline issues that won’t be resolved in my DB until I get the whole thing…
In any case, Crisp not beingr healthy onlyl helps my argument. I’m not (nor is Tango) endorsing Marcels. I will say that when fans intuitively think they can “out-intuit” Marcels, they are almost always wrong.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 3:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Soren Petro
on 810whb.com just said he has heard from sourcd in Chicago that the Royals are holding out trading Teahen to the Cubs unless they throw Felix Pie in the deal…
I’d wager that those talks are off, or the R’s have shifted targets…
by GoBabies!! on Nov 19, 2008 11:43 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
FONTENOT NOW
I guess
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 11:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
unless Pie is gonna be our 4th Outfielder
Coco, Dejesus, Guillen, Pie – 4th and get Fotenot in the deal
ugh.
by focs on Nov 19, 2008 11:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I personally don't see it in Pie
I know he is still really, really raw, but he hasn’t shown my eye much at this point…
by GoBabies!! on Nov 19, 2008 11:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well Teahen for Fotenot is not enough
ugh.
by focs on Nov 19, 2008 11:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Greg Schaum at 610
Who posts at Royals Corner is hinting that Sean Marshall is being discussed.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 11:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Here's a thought
maybe Crisp was limited in Boston’s crappy lineup and will break out in our great line…..OK I drank too much last night.
by I need more Esteban on Nov 19, 2008 11:46 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
you drank too much...
lucky.
Industrial engineering optimization test awaits!
At least Wally Joyner's not on the team....
by tcon125 on Nov 19, 2008 11:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
From royals.com
Although the deal was not immediately announced by the clubs, Ramirez said from the Dominican Republic that he was informed of the deal by the Royals shortly after 9 a.m. CT.
ugh.
by focs on Nov 19, 2008 11:47 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Come on people
We traded RamRam and we replace Gathright with Crisp. We also open up a bullpen slot for a Rule 5 player or another reclamation project. Overall quality of the players the Royals control goes up at little real cost.
This is a Good Thing.
by BlueEyes_Austin on Nov 19, 2008 11:51 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Hey and people wanted to spend more money?
here it is.
by I need more Esteban on Nov 19, 2008 11:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That is where my thoughts are leading also
by GoBabies!! on Nov 19, 2008 11:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
B Bu But...
Gathright can jump over cars :(
ugh.
by focs on Nov 19, 2008 11:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Setting the bar kinda low
Now doubt Jacobs is an improvement over Gload and Crisp is an improvement over Gathright. That isn’t the point. I want this team to win the division. Simply replacing god awful players with mediocre players with limited upside will improve your team, but only by so much. We should be looking for higher upside players than that.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 11:54 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
People probably said the same thing
about Jason Bartlett, I think we are trying to build role players around our young guys. It’s just a matter of if the young guys work out or not.
by I need more Esteban on Nov 19, 2008 11:56 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I'd feel much better about this trade
If we had Scott Kazmir, James Shields, BJ Upton, Carl Crawford, Carlos Pena, and Evan Longoria
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 11:57 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
very good point
but we do have: Gil Meche, Zack Greinke, Billy Butler, David Dejesus, Alex Gordon, and Kila Ka’ahuie…..not the same, but a couple break out and all of the sudden everything is much better….what can I say, I’m a glass half-full kind of guy.
by I need more Esteban on Nov 19, 2008 11:59 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
And Ramon Ramirez and J. P. Howell!
D’oh
The lineups are bad enough… can we not compare the FO that traded for Howell, picked up Iwamura for next to nothing, Matt Garza for a OF worse (if younger) that GUillen, signed Eric Hinske to a minor league deal to be their Ross GLoad, and so on, to the one still living off the glory of the Meche and Soria acquisitions hoping people won’t notice 3/36 replacement p layers, the less-harmful but even more idiotic Gload extension, the TPJ fiasco, etc…
Moore might be good yet. He’s good at pitching. But he’s nowhere near the league of the Tampa Boys yet. The Guillen, Gload, and Jacobs-in-arb acquisitions are evidence enough of that.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 3:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why can't we compare front offices Pessimistic Pete?
Did Tampa hit a homerun with every signing they’ve made? No, the reason those signings look good are because of the play of their young, high draft picks. All those other guys are just role players.
They also took one of those young high draft picks (Delmon Young) and traded him for pitching and defense that put them over the hump….The Carlos Pena signing was a great one (see Mike Jacobs) but the rest hinged on draft picks.
If those come around then you will be able to compare those FO’s.
by I need more Esteban on Nov 19, 2008 4:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
The old regime was hamstrung by ownership’s cheap attitude towards the draft.
GMDM got organizational pitching depth with his first draft class and started making moves towards more position players the past two years.
Granted, we don’t know how the future will play out but the farm system looks like it can start cranking out frontline position players in 2-4 years and then the Roylas will be able to make moves like a true major league franchise.
It’s just tough to sell patience to a fanbase that may have to wait 20 years between periods of competitiveness.
. . . a weary nation turns to Gil Meche
by vegasroyals on Nov 19, 2008 4:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, what do you propose DM do?
You can’t attract FAs without winning, even if you have the money, so you try to improve through trade. OK, so to get a player like you’re talking about, what would we have to give up? A good portion of the farm? Part of the team we’re trying to build upon to get better?
So then how else can we improve but get incrementally better? It seems abysmal at the time, I feel that too. I want Coco Crisp to have been (insert great outfielder here), but until the farm system is stocked and we can reasonably trade away pieces of that and the current roster, what else can be done?
by Bornin85 on Nov 19, 2008 12:04 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
+1
For everyone that is moaning and groaning about “not getting enough” for Leo Nunez and Ramon Ramirez, I would REALLY like to know what REALISTIC deal you would propose involving either or both of those guys.
Bottom line, they are both middle relievers (picked up for next to nothing). The Royals are NOT getting Beltran back for them. I happen to think that turning Jorge De La Rosa into Coco Crisp is a pretty good bit of GM’ing on Dayton’s part. Especially since the Royals clearly have a greater need for improved outfield defense than they need to hang on to another good GMDM middle reliever find.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 19, 2008 12:11 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Why do we have to trade those guys?
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 12:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
To get incrementally better
Bullpen arms are easy for DM to come by, apparently.
by Bornin85 on Nov 19, 2008 12:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why do we have to trade *anything* to get incrementally better?
by Top Ramen on Nov 19, 2008 12:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You're happy with 75 wins?
Because we won’t be signing any impact free agents of consequence this offseason
by Bornin85 on Nov 19, 2008 12:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You're happy with 80 wins?
Go for guys with upside, not guys that make us incrementally better
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 12:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
but HOW?
Guys with as much upside as you want aren’t always realistically availalbe. You think GMDM doesn’t wish he could get more? You think he’s perfectly, completely, fully, and regretlessly happy about Coco Crisp?
He will get what he can get.
I’m with Bornin85. You can’t realistically expect all the improvement to come at once…we don’t have the foundation to make that kind of high-/immediate impact trade yet.
by minda33 on Nov 19, 2008 12:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There are guys with upside dealt all the time
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 12:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sometimes
But we have other pieces to trade, not just Nunez or RamRam. I don’t see why we have to only trade those guys.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 12:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
...because they're the guys
that other teams want?
by minda33 on Nov 19, 2008 12:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Right
I’m sure teams aren’t interested in any of our other players
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 12:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not trading DDJ for a high upside prospect,
but that just might be me.
by Bornin85 on Nov 19, 2008 12:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If the goal is just to get incrementally better
Then just replace Gload with Shealy. BAM Incrementally better.
by Top Ramen on Nov 19, 2008 12:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Um
Gload got replaced…by Jacobs, again for a fungible middle reliever.
by BlueEyes_Austin on Nov 19, 2008 12:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Because Dayton decided...
that DeJesus wasn’t as good a defensive CF as he wanted, and made acquiring one a priority. You can argue with that decision if you want, but he’s the GM. The only in-house option would have been Maier. If you think that handing Maier the starting CF job was a better option, OK, but I’d rather have Crisp out there.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 19, 2008 12:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and that desire has now led to TWO horrible trades
gathright for howell and now this
by royalsreview on Nov 19, 2008 2:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This was a horrible trade?
I don’t think any serious analyst is looking at it that way. I’m not saying it is a particularly good trade for the Royals. But to say it is a horrible trade is pretty silly.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Nov 19, 2008 2:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
One other thing about Crisp
A bigger ballpark like the K should increase his 2B/3B output as opposed to Fenway
by GoBabies!! on Nov 19, 2008 11:54 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Might as well, Lineup's anyone?
Is Crisp a switch-hitter?
I’m just kind of doing a dirty lineup, not really thinking about splits so I’m sure someone else can supplement this.
Crisp
Aviles
Dejesus
Guillen
Jacobs
Gordon
Butler
Olivo
Callaspo
Bench: Teahen, Shealy, Gload, TPJ (yuck)
I’m sure this would change depending on whose pitching.
by I need more Esteban on Nov 19, 2008 11:55 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Crisp
Dejesus
Aviles
Guillen
Jacobs
Butler
Gordon
Olivo
Callaspo
ugh.
by focs on Nov 19, 2008 11:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Back up Catcher?
Mike Jacobs you're 2009 AL MVP
by eboston on Nov 19, 2008 12:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't like Crisp leading off at all
CF DeJesus
SS Aviles
RF Guillen
DH Jacobs
1B Butler
3B Gordon
CF Crisp
C Olivo
2B Callaspo
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 12:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Dispite his OBP
I still prefer Crisp a lead-off b/c of his speed
CF – Crisp
SS – Aviles
LF – DDJ
RF – JoGui
DH – Jacobs/Butler
3B – Gordo
1B – Shealy
C – Olivo
2B – Callaspo
Bench – Butler/Jacobs, Buck, Gload, German
I don’t know what the F we’re going to do with Teahen… Can we trade him for RamRam?
by labbadabba on Nov 19, 2008 12:49 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
He's a win better than JoGui
I think the answer is obvious
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 3:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Speed is much less important for a leadoff hitter than OBP
Much, much, much, much, much less important.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Nov 19, 2008 3:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Lineup
vs. RHP
CF – Crisp
LF – DeJesus
3B – Gordon
RF – Guillen
1B/DH – Jacobs
SS – Aviles
1B/DH – Butler
C – Olivo
2B – Callaspo
*If Butler performs well and Guillen falters, they can switch.
vs. LHP
CF – Crisp
SS – Aviles
LF – DeJesus
RF – Guillen
DH – Butler
3B – Gordon
1B – Shealy
C – Olivo
2B – Callaspo
Bench – Butler/Jacobs/Shealy, Buck, Teahen, German
Teahen can play for Guillen against RHP alot (and for Butler some, too).
by BrRoyal on Nov 19, 2008 1:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Done deal
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 11:56 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Career numbers at the K anyone?
I seem to remember him raking with the Indians against us.
by I need more Esteban on Nov 19, 2008 12:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
that be a different time
Crisp hasn’t been above-average offensively since he started playing for the Sox.
by DarthYoshi on Nov 19, 2008 12:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Look at it this way
We got rid of two Relief Pitchers (which are the most replaceable position on a baseball team)
For 2 Starting players
Good job
ugh.
by focs on Nov 19, 2008 12:08 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
the light hitting late inning defensive replacement is the most
replaceable position
by royalsfan03 on Nov 19, 2008 1:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
do you remember what CoCo was before he was traded to the Red Sox?
Just as good as Grady Sizemore at the time…. Sizemore progressed…. crisp got hurt and didn’t.
Don't forget to send your broken maples to the US Forest Service.
by 306008 on Nov 19, 2008 1:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think we might be forgetting
that DDJ is an ok CF but kind of sucks as an corner outfielder when we compare him to MLB corner outfielders instead of, say, Mark Teahen or Coco Crisp.
I know that Jacobs hit 30 HRs (once), but I thought we were going to acquire some power. Now we’re adding another replacement level guy to the OF. I would have spent the Jacobs/Crisp money on an actual power-hitting corner OF.
This is a pointless $6 million move. The Red Sox can afford a $6 million replacement level guy; we can’t.
by hippdoghipp on Nov 19, 2008 12:10 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Just curious
which power-hitting corner OF?
by I need more Esteban on Nov 19, 2008 12:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He is replacing Teahen and Gathright, so its almost a neutral move as far as money is concerned.
Which will allow us (at least in Daytons and Trey’s minds) to get our value from GLoad’s 2.9 million without just dumping him, so looking at it that way, we save over 2 million.
Go Royals!
by BabyBlues on Nov 19, 2008 12:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Right...
Because there are a ton of corner OF’s who clearly have as much or more power than Jacobs, and a better OBA, that are available (either through FA or trade) that will only make $6-9 million per over the next couple years.
Give me a break. Can we PLEASE deal with reality here?
by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 19, 2008 12:14 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Err
Josh Willingham? Nick Swisher?
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 12:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You're seriously suggesting that the Royals...
trot Butler or Kila out there every night in one of the corners???
And I didn’t know that Ken Williams (as crazy as he is) was willing to move Swisher for RamRam and/or Nunez (and within the division, to boot). Or that Willingham was also available for one or both of them.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 19, 2008 12:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Then trade someone else
I don’t get why we have to deal RamRam or Nunez.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 12:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
OK fine
but don’t just say someone else, who?
by I need more Esteban on Nov 19, 2008 12:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Its impossible for me to know what exactly is out there
But Willingham was just dealt with Olsen for three nothing prospects. I suggested in the other thread that Teahen/Blake Wood/Chris Nicoll was equivalent to what the Yanks gave up in the Swisher deal (we don’t know if KW would have dealt within the division or not)
Felix Pie is available (not a huge fan, but at least he has upside and has much of Crisp’s skillset) Lyle Overbay is supposedly available (less upside, but good OBA numbers) The Indians have excess outfielders that are young. Jeremy Hermida might be available.
Now you may nitpick each of these players. That’s not the point though. The point is there are young players with upside that are available – probably far more than I’ve pointed out. DM just went with a mediocre vet with limited upside.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 12:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
3 Nothing prospects...
have you even looked at there numbers
ugh.
by focs on Nov 19, 2008 12:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They're C prospects at best
We certainly could have matched it without having to give up any of our top prospects.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 12:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess we are getting into hypotheticals then
Because we have no diea if a GM would want Teahen/Wood/Nicoll…I lean towards that it would take more than that but who knows.
by I need more Esteban on Nov 19, 2008 12:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know either
But if we can’t do better than Crisp, I don’t think we should make a trade. Crisp is just not the kind of player we should be looking to acquire. Keeping Teahen in the OF is a better option.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 12:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
obvously we’ll see…I’m hoping for a turnaround season from Crisp and Teahen but obviously won’t get it from both. We might still be trading Teahen too.
by I need more Esteban on Nov 19, 2008 12:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Who are you, Allard Baird?
We can’t afford a $15/mil guy who’s actually good, so we should drop $9 mil on two guys that are replacement level? I know that’s how Allard Baird tried to win, but it’s silly.
We have a limited amount of cash to spend, and so far we’ve spent almost all of it on two guys that don’t really make the team any better. Jacobs hit 31 HRs once so we just had to have him, and GMDM is obsessed with speed up the middle so we gave up a very good reliever who makes no money for a fast guy who adds nothing offensively and makes $6 mil. That’s dumb.
Plus, I’m a little botthered that we have holes all over our lineup, and GMDM has signed guys at positions where we already had guys to play. Dumb.
by hippdoghipp on Nov 19, 2008 12:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not true, if you work out the numbers, the Royals payroll would project to be less then last years.
Roayls are still ahead by 3-4 million, and are looking to trade Teahen for a leauge minimum infielder, so the payroll would be down 6-7 million, and we could still get a 15 million a year free agent player.
Go Royals!
by BabyBlues on Nov 19, 2008 12:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
method to the madness?
Don't forget to send your broken maples to the US Forest Service.
by 306008 on Nov 19, 2008 12:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why do we want to get rid of Teahen?
We still need a fourth OF, and as discussed on this board in the past, Teahen is a good value.
If I were GM, I’d stop dicking around bringing in replacement level guys to replace the replacement level guys we already have, and actually bring in some good players that can help us win a division in a few years. We’re not going anywhere next year, which makes this trade so silly.
And I’d really stop TRADING guys to bring in replacement level guys. Coco Crisps are a dime a dozen, although I confess I am discounting his ability to be a “true” leadoff hitter.
by hippdoghipp on Nov 19, 2008 1:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
but these replacement guys are better than our replacement guys...
so we’re building.. it takes time. You can’t just flip flop everything in one year.
Don't forget to send your broken maples to the US Forest Service.
by 306008 on Nov 19, 2008 1:13 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
At least we know we have another guy who will charge the mound and start a fight!
by I need more Esteban on Nov 19, 2008 12:24 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
That's a VERY good point.
Between Olivo and Crisp, hopefully teams will stop effing with the Royals so much by throwing inside whenever they want.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 19, 2008 12:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And we have Guillen to take on the fans.
Go Royals!
by BabyBlues on Nov 19, 2008 12:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This is the part that is dumb..
we have crisp for 1 year… 2009.. with an 8 MM dollar option for 2010… i really doubt the royals would pick that up.. they’ll probably choose the 500K buyout..
So we got rid of a guy who we had control of until 2012 for a guy we have for most likely a year
ugh.
by focs on Nov 19, 2008 12:29 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Agree. That's the worst part.
We gave up our best or second best reliever for one year of marginally better defense, plus lose the opportunity to signfiicantly upgrade our LF offense.
by hippdoghipp on Nov 19, 2008 12:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
mmm, but what if Crisp is a type B free agent? Plus we have players like Rosa and Lowrey to step into the reliever spots.
We also still have quite a bit in the pen, and if we get another starter, Banny would be a great long reliever, something we were really thin on last year that made us make some roster moves when the pen got used up.
Go Royals!
by BabyBlues on Nov 19, 2008 12:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Riiiight...
I was wondering the same thing. Here are the Royals’ options (definite and at least strongly rumored thus far), if you think DDJ was just not good enough defensively in CF. If you assume all options are somewhat close defensively (I’ll let someone else figure that out), then here are the offensive numbers(obviously Maier and Pie have VERY limited sample sizes):
Crisp
AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG *OPS+
162 Game Avg 605 90 169 33 5 12 65 26 10 48 89 .280 .331 .409 94
Gathright
AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG *OPS+
162 Game Avg 455 67 120 12 3 0 38 31 11 37 81 .263 .328 .304 68
Maier
AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG *OPS+
162 Game Avg 432 50 116 4 4 0 37 0 8 17 91 .269 .309 .298 64
Pie
AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG *OPS+
162 Game Avg 324 44 72 14 5 4 37 14 1 26 90 .223 .284 .331 57
by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 19, 2008 12:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Is Boston eating any of the contract?
by I need more Esteban on Nov 19, 2008 12:39 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
That is a good question
My gut tells me probably not, otherwise, we may have had to give up more than RamRam to get Crisp.
by DarthYoshi on Nov 19, 2008 12:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think they might be....
RamRam with the monster? what do you think?
Don't forget to send your broken maples to the US Forest Service.
by 306008 on Nov 19, 2008 12:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What happens to Teahan?
Goes to the Cubs for pitching?
Don't forget to send your broken maples to the US Forest Service.
by 306008 on Nov 19, 2008 12:44 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Damnit
we’re gonna win the Central and then we’ll all getting trashed in the right field standing room only fountain section in the playoffs.
No word on if Freddie Patek will weep with us if we lose to the Yankees.
by BHWick on Nov 19, 2008 12:47 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
On the conference call
DM said we dealt DLR for RamRam. I always thought those were two separate deals – RamRam for Valerio de los Santos; DLR for cash?
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 12:50 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
They were.. hes just talking out his ass :)
ugh.
by focs on Nov 19, 2008 12:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How bout this..
Mark Teahen and Julio Pimentel for Sean Marshall and Mike Fotenot.. and if not Marshall what about Rich Hill
ugh.
by focs on Nov 19, 2008 12:51 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't take a chance on Hill with his injuries
But I like Marshall and Fontenot. Not sure the Cubs do that deal, but its not totally out of the question.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 12:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I liked Ramirez so I’m unsure about the trade when viewed alone. However, I think any argument that Teabag is better than Crisp is silly. Teabag has peaked and worn out his welcome in my view. In Crisp we get a guy that is at least as good and more importantly brings the intangible of having played for a winner. We need to sweep out our perennial losing attitude and learn to win.
by kabrink on Nov 19, 2008 12:58 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
In Crisp we get a guy who just hasn't worn out his welcome yet.
I don’t think he’s terrible, and I’m not entirely opposed to the trade, but saying Teahen has worn out his welcome is sily. And boy could we use some more intagnibles in the clubhouse. Much better than the tangibles.
Don't Stop Believing!
by KC Chris on Nov 19, 2008 2:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Transaction Oracle is up
Not very high on the trade of course. ZIPS has him at .267/.327/.380
I’m not sure I buy his analysis on defense….what do you say devil_fingers?
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 12:59 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Well the I need more Esteban projections are up
and they are .279/.350/.450
Crisp hits 25 HR’s and gets banned for using a controlled substance….it’s all in the numbers.
by I need more Esteban on Nov 19, 2008 1:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
50 game suspension save the Royals 1/3 of that $8 million.
They might even turn him in. : )
Don't forget to send your broken maples to the US Forest Service.
by 306008 on Nov 19, 2008 1:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just catching up
I"m sure someone else has beter numbers… I’m at “school” and may not have time to give BS analysis later on this… All I have are CHONE’s defensive projections, listed up above.
I know people are sick of Teahen. I like home runs, too…. I hope this works. Crisp over Guillen is a good idea, Crisp over Teahen, not so much.
But at least Dayton will have more of his guys out there.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 4:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hey guys
How good is Ramon Ramirez? I don’t know much about him other than his fine numbers, so I thought about asking.
About Crisp… He’s a very frustrating player, both on the field and with the bat. In some games, he’ll smoke the ball and end up on base many times. On other games, he’ll only hit soft grounders to the pitcher and end up 0-5. He’s good at taking pitches. On the field, he has nice speed to get to the ball, but sometimes he’ll take downright silly routes to the ball. That’s just him. Good tools, good player all around, but he’s a dumbass in some plays. He seems to lack concentration, I think. He’s a solid player, and I hope he can live up to his potential in KC. His batting stance is the ugliest ever, so good luck on that.
Mother---- him and John Wayne!
by MerryGoByeBye on Nov 19, 2008 1:05 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
RamRam
Is a solid reliever with a great change who avoids the longball but has command issues at times. There is a certain fluctuation in reliever performance, but generally I think he’ll do quite well in Boston.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 1:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well
Prepare your self for the nastiest “Power” changeup you have ever seen
ugh.
by focs on Nov 19, 2008 1:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Power changeup?
Sounds fun. :)
Mother---- him and John Wayne!
by MerryGoByeBye on Nov 19, 2008 1:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He's a definite fan favorite around here
Very good season and was counted on to set-up Soria and even go a couple innings sometimes. I’d be very happy if I were a Red Sox fan, especially since you had an extra outfielder. He does have an injury history, and he’s only done this for one season so those are the only question marks in my eyes.
by I need more Esteban on Nov 19, 2008 1:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm surprised by this
“he’ll take downright silly routes to the ball”
I can’t say that I’ve heard anyone in the Boston area say anything negative about the way Crisp plays the field… other than his comments about his lack of an arm. He should have won a Gold Glove in ’07 if not for the automatic votes for Torii…
by Rhody Royals on Nov 19, 2008 1:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I remember at least 6 times this last season when a ball hit in the air towards Coco turned into a double
Not like he just missed, or it was out of his range. He just took a bad route. He had some injuries this last season, so it might have been this. I don’t remember this happening in 2007 now that you said it, so I think it was the injury.
Mother---- him and John Wayne!
by MerryGoByeBye on Nov 19, 2008 1:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I sometimes get the impression
Coco wants to get on sportscenters top 10 a little more than the next guy
ugh.
by focs on Nov 19, 2008 1:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
A-la
Jim Edmunds? Now he could make the easiest catch look like a highlight reel catch.
by Rhody Royals on Nov 19, 2008 1:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
He’ll also swing for homers when you need singles from time to time.
Mother---- him and John Wayne!
by MerryGoByeBye on Nov 19, 2008 2:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Go to stat corner
check out AL reliever pRAA. Ramirez was the third highest in the AL, behind only RIvera and Papelbon. Yeah, he’s pretty good.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 4:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And then there are the projections...
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Nov 19, 2008 4:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
DM on 810
-Sees Crisp batting at the top of the lineup
-Best available player for the Royals to acquire
-Has work to do now in assembling a bullpen
-Pimentel and Rosa could be bullpen candidates if we don’t find anyone else
-Sees Crisp as a two year player in KC
-We still have payroll flexibility, can raise payroll 20-30% over last year
-We won’t pursue Manny Ramirez or Mark Teixeira
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 1:14 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
no manny in the OF?
Don't forget to send your broken maples to the US Forest Service.
by 306008 on Nov 19, 2008 1:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What is Soren saying about the move?
by I need more Esteban on Nov 19, 2008 1:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He likes it
Says its not a great move, but it makes the Royals better.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 1:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
talking about using the farm system to plug players in right now...
Don't forget to send your broken maples to the US Forest Service.
by 306008 on Nov 19, 2008 1:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Doesn't Moore know?
Pimentel didn’t even make the RoyalsReview top ten prospect list!
by BrRoyal on Nov 19, 2008 1:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i think he traded RamRam
because he is tired of reading RR everyday seeing the make RamRam closer talk!
Don't forget to send your broken maples to the US Forest Service.
by 306008 on Nov 19, 2008 1:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
he may not make the top 20.
Go Royals!
by BabyBlues on Nov 19, 2008 1:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
D_F on DM
More work do to:
Read Branch Rickey’s Life magazine article.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 4:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
anything else that he said?
Don't forget to send your broken maples to the US Forest Service.
by 306008 on Nov 19, 2008 1:15 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
must log onto the 810 website!
Don't forget to send your broken maples to the US Forest Service.
by 306008 on Nov 19, 2008 1:16 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
More DM
-Could go up to $70-80 million, depends on what makes sense for us; if we can’t find players that fit, we’ll invest it in the draft
-Sees Crisp at the top of the lineup, but its up to Trey; DJ could hit 3rd. Alex could hit 3rd; we have flexibility though.
-Crisp has “value throughout the industry”. Guess this means well flip him next summer?
-Teahen is appealing to other teams because he’s cheap and can play lots of positions; at least a dozen of our players are constantly being inquired about
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 1:20 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
asking about ZG
Don't forget to send your broken maples to the US Forest Service.
by 306008 on Nov 19, 2008 1:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What the HELL.
MLBTR says royals also could pursue Ibanez… So.. Guillen, Dejesus, Crisp, Ibanez, Teahen… Someones gotta go.. probably teahen but then still.. we have 4 starting outfielders.. someone else still has to go..
could this be a sign that DDJ is leaving?
ugh.
by focs on Nov 19, 2008 1:22 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Its a sign
That Tim Dierkes throws out a lot of rumors there. Most actual trades seem to be done without any rumors (see Jacobs, Mike; Crisp, Coco)
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 1:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
not to mention that Ibanez
is most likely considered a DH at this point…He cant play left like he used to, and for what he is asking the Royals should pass
by royalsfan03 on Nov 19, 2008 1:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
W Got This
For this:
Epic win.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Nov 19, 2008 1:23 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
hahahahaha
wow that is awesome
by I need more Esteban on Nov 19, 2008 1:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But we traded
This:
For this:
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 1:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that was a wild pitch anyway... I recognize it.
Don't forget to send your broken maples to the US Forest Service.
by 306008 on Nov 19, 2008 1:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll be cool with the trade
if DMGM also picks up Jonny Gomes
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 4:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Jason Marquis for Teahan?
Don't forget to send your broken maples to the US Forest Service.
by 306008 on Nov 19, 2008 1:23 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Ugh
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 1:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
More DM
-Mark “fits in well” with what we’re doing here
-Wants Zack here for as long as possible; takes both parties to do that; will continue to go down that path
-Soren asked if negotiations have begun, DM says he won’t discuss that publicly (reading between the lines it sounds like Zack is not yet convinced the Royals are going to be winners and is reluctant to sign)
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 1:23 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Ask yourself this question....
Would you trade Teahen and $3M for, say:
Brad Ziegler, Justin Speier, Jose Veras, Kyle Farnsworth, Trever Miller
by BlueEyes_Austin on Nov 19, 2008 1:26 PM EST reply actions 0 recs