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Coco Crisp Traded to Royals for Ramon Ramirez

Yuck. Really, Dayton?

Link about 1 month ago Rockchalktalk_tiny rockchalk Comment 533 comments 1 recs |

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ya beat me

Don't Stop Believing!

by KC Chris on Nov 19, 2008 9:56 AM EST   0 recs

CRAP

I don’t mind Crisp, but I really liked RamRam. Ah well, DM is good at finding relievers.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 10:01 AM EST   0 recs

Upon a look at his stats

Completely underwhelming. We get just two years of a below average outfielder who makes a good amount of money and can play great defense, but has okay OBA skills, not much SLUG and very little upside. We didn’t give up a ton – RamRam is a really nice reliever, but probably replaceable – still, I’d rather we gave up actual talent to get young guys with real upside.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 10:04 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

i'm genuinely curious and haven't looked up the stats

How much better is Coco than DJ or Mitch?

Don't Stop Believing!

by KC Chris on Nov 19, 2008 10:11 AM EST   0 recs

Not better than DJ

Probably better than Mitch, but not by a ton. Has more power I think.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 10:17 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

i didn't think he was

better than DJ, but i haven’t looked up any comparable stats or anything and assumed I was a homer. So if Coco is not any better than DJ, does the trade make any sense unless we now trade DJ?

Don't Stop Believing!

by KC Chris on Nov 19, 2008 10:22 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

DM

Wants to move DJ to left and create a great defensive outfield.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 10:31 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

DDJ's +9 projection in left

Surely outweighs Crisp’s minus 3 in CF and Guillen ’s -11 in right.

Marcels has Crisps about a win worse than Teahen with the bat.

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 10:38 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Crisp was significantly better defensively...

in 2007 and battled various injuries last year which may have negatively impacted his defensive metrics for 2008. I think you’re undervaluing his true defensive worth.

by djk royal on Nov 19, 2008 10:39 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

I'm just going off Chone's projections

which take age and past performance into account.

Injuries are part of a players performance history.

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 10:40 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

yeah

but why move the superior defender to a lesser position? It just made me think that DJ is on the block, which I would not be happy about unless we got a lot. I could be 100000% wrong, and I’d be happy to keep DJ in LF.

Don't Stop Believing!

by KC Chris on Nov 19, 2008 10:44 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

positivity?

you might get banned…..

by I need more Esteban on Nov 19, 2008 11:43 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

No that is fair

but writing off pickups before they’ve played a game for us isn’t, to me. Is Crisp going to be a great pickup?….mmm I’m leaning towards no based on past performances and age, but can I remain optimistic that our FO knows what they’re doing? Yes.

by I need more Esteban on Nov 19, 2008 11:49 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

I'm not writing it off

I am criticizing it. Coco Crisp has played more than enough games to evaluate him. Games not in a KC Royals uniform also count for his projection.

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 3:47 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Yeah, that .330 OBP will be a real boon to the team

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 11:44 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Legit leadoff hitter?

Why, because he can steal bases? His OBA is 30 points below DJs.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 11:50 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

The difference in '08

was only about 20 points and that was with Crisp being in and out of the lineup all year. His last two months of ‘08 were much better than the early part of the season when he was riding the pine because of the Sox high hopes for Ellsbury and because of injuries. Look, I’m not saying that Crisp is the be-all, end-all at leadoff hitters but he is more than capable of being a leadoff hitter and allows the Royals to move Dejesus out of the leadoff spot. It also gives them flexibility to either have Teahen come off the bench or to make another deal. They gave up a pretty good (not great) 27-year-old relief pitcher coming off a career year for a starting CF. I don’t think they gave up all that much for a year of a guy looking to rebuild his stock a little to where it was when the Sox got him.

by Rhody Royals on Nov 19, 2008 12:59 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Except

It was right in line with his career OBA. He’s about a .330 OBA guy.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 1:00 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

But

That includes 2006 when Crisp was hurt (thumb injury?) from about the first week or so of the season and ended up at .317 and .330 in ’07 when, again, he was injuried. Otherwise, he is closer to .340. Not much of a difference but I think it helps a little. I just like being able to move Dejesus to a more productive spot in the lineup where, if Crisp and Aviles do their jobs, he can drive someone in.

Thanks for the discussion, I don’t usually get into these too often but like the back-and-forth. Out here in Sox nation it’s impossible to find anything to talk about that doesn’t revolve around the Sox or Pats (even the Celt’s fall short).

by Rhody Royals on Nov 19, 2008 1:10 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Once again

Injuries and injury laden years are part of past performance and count toward the projection.

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 3:47 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

This means

Soria won’t be moving out of the closer role anytime soon

Mike Jacobs you're 2009 AL MVP

by eboston on Nov 19, 2008 10:21 AM EST   0 recs

IF ITS NOT BROKE, DON'T FIX IT

CHONE projections:

DDJ CF defense: +3
Crisp CF defense: minus 3

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 10:22 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

to be fair

PMR has Crisp as about average this year, and DDJ at minus 10 runs or so

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 10:48 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Great, so let's just get a random assortment of players

sure, they all have projections, but who knows how it will turn out!

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 3:48 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

nice thought.

Don't forget to send your broken maples to the US Forest Service.

by 306008 on Nov 19, 2008 3:57 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Noticed that too

It’s like Dayton decided to end the argument, by getting rid of the pieces being used in favor of it (Nunez,RamRam, Mahay will go too I bet).

by AxDxMx on Nov 19, 2008 1:30 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Bad trade, on first glance

As I posted on the other thread:

Chone CF projection: minus 3
Marcels bRAA: minus 6.4

Arms ratings the past three years in CF:

2005: minus 16.5
2006: minus 4.9
2007: minus 0.2

Let’s generously call that minus 1

So… minus 10.4 = about Minus one win.

+.25 wins for CF + 2.5 wins for AL replacement = 2.25 minus 1 =

1.25 WAR player over full time. I guess that’s worth also $5.75M, but…

given that Ramirez outpitched Soria last year, this doesn’t look to smart. Well, at least we still have Leo Nunez.

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 10:21 AM EST   0 recs

Don't forget the $8 million option for 2010!

Can’t wait to pick that up.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 10:32 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Mistake

should be 1.75 WAR. Math mistake. That’s better, but still assumes he plays full-time. Still don’t think he’s as good as Ramirez, and he makes more than $5M/yr more…

I’d make a joke, but I stil think we need about 5-10 more of these brilliant acquisitions before we have enough data to judge DMGM’s evaluation of position players.

At least crisp seems like a guy who will probably be above replacement level, which would make him better than Gload, TPJ, Gathright, Guillen, or even Callaspo this past year.

But they get to keep Soria as a closer, so that have that going for them.

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 10:36 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

This is another one of those trades

where if you look at in a complete vacuum and ignore salaries, it doesn’t look too bad.

Once you start to stray outside of that vacuum though and look at salaries, service time, and other players affected, it’s not nearly as clear.

by Top Ramen on Nov 19, 2008 10:40 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Agreed

I would put it this war: if you look at in a vacuum, it’s not too clear.

When you look at the other stuff, it’s clear that DMGM got the short end of the stick.

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 10:41 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

"Given that Ramirez outpitched Soria last year."

…What?! Who are you kidding? – TL

[In 2008] Kila Ka’aihue had the best on-base percentage of any hitter in the minor leagues. - Joe Posnanski, 11/9/2008 ... Ergo, let's give him a shot at first base in KC in 2009.

by timlacy on Nov 19, 2008 10:58 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

in my face

Soria did have the superior ERA and more saves (AWESOME stat, by the way)

All Ramirez did was have a better FIP, xFIP, tRA, and pitch more innings.

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 11:01 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

what the fuk is fip xfip tra

NOTHING..by your analysis Soria should have gotten traded for Crisp

Ramirez did have an ERA of like 10 last year. Moore simply thinks relievers are fickly and one year wonders. Gobble and Peralta were ok last year and sucked this year…..Nunez and Ramirez had career years and should be traded while their stock is high

What if Gobble and Peralta bounce back (i know its hard to imagine) and Ramirez and Nunez are awful next year…..

by GobbleforCyoung on Nov 19, 2008 2:12 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Ramirez had an ERA of like 10 last year?

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Nov 19, 2008 2:12 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Gobble's sucked against RH batters for a long time

Trey just decided to have him face more of them than in years past, which lead to the overall crappy numbers.

by Top Ramen on Nov 19, 2008 2:51 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Why undo it it

when the Royals just re-did it!

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 10:39 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

162 game average

Coco
YEARS G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
4.83 162 605 90 169 33 5 12 65 48 89 26 10 .280 .331 .409 .740

Teabag
YEARS G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
3.28 162 596 83 160 34 7 14 74 55 137 10 3 .268 .332 .421 .753

by wetleg on Nov 19, 2008 10:36 AM EST   0 recs

ugh.

Don't Stop Believing!

by KC Chris on Nov 19, 2008 10:42 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

What gets me

Is that we’re probably going to deal either Teahen or DJ, and replace him with Crisp, which makes our offense WORSE. Wasn’t that our big problem last year? Offense?

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 10:49 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Well,

replacing Teahen/DDJ with Crisp is less of a downgrade next year than replacing them with Pie.

So there’s that.

by Top Ramen on Nov 19, 2008 10:51 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

That's true

but it doesn’t matter whether it’s offense or defense — the most generous projections have Crisp being equal to Teahen, but he’s older and more expensive. Needless to say, he far inferior to DDJ.

But hey, he’ll be better than Jose Guillen, and he’s not one of Allard’s boys, so slightly less embarrassment for DMGM = worth the money.

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 10:56 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Transaction oracle should have their projections for Crisp and Ramirez up soon

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 10:39 AM EST   0 recs

The dichotomy

Between the reaction here and on Royals Corner is striking. The “this trade is AWESOME!!!111” posts are a bit much.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 10:49 AM EST   0 recs

I like how they've been one-starring your posts that aren't 100% in support of it

They’re a bit strong with their man-love of all things Dayton over there.

by Top Ramen on Nov 19, 2008 10:54 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

It hurts my feelings

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 10:54 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

I can't read that place

I’m sorry, Retro, but you are a better person than me. Every time I read it, I think that most (not all) of the posters are morons, DMGM family members, or both.

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 10:57 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

What's amazing is that some look at it in terms of

Jacobs > Gload
Crisp > Gathright

Big win, and all it cost was two relief pitchers !!!!!

When in actuality, it cost 4 relief pitchers, 3 of them very good, to get to average-to slightly below average production out of 1B and CF.

by Top Ramen on Nov 19, 2008 12:00 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

As state above

In a vacuum, these are good “value” deals. Jacobs is more valuable than Nunez, Crisp more valuable than RamRam (arguably).

But these moves don’t make sense for a ballclub like this. We should be getting young guys with upside who don’t cost that much. Jacobs and Crisp are both near 30, make nearly $10 million combined, and both have below average to awful OBAs. Crisp actually makes our offense worse if we replace Teahen or DJ with him.

It seems like DM doesn’t want to give up much and wants to get guys with limited upside. I guess I’d rather he give up actual value to get players with actual upside once in awhile.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Nov 19, 2008 10:54 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Yeah

he just doesn’t know how.

Look at combined stats — Jacobs and Crisp were both around replacement level players last year. They will cost around $9M this year. Nunez and Ramirez may not be great shakes (well, Ramirez was the third best _player_on the Royals last year behind Meche and Greinke, and one of the top 10 relievers in the AL, but I know what you’re saying), but together they’ll make less than $1M in 2009.

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 10:59 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

I don't see how you can say Teahen is better than Crisp.

… when you factor in positions and defense.

by djk royal on Nov 19, 2008 11:08 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

I'm just going off the marcels and choneprojections, djk

that’s all. Then adjusting for position. The projections might be wrong.

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 11:09 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

The projections may end up being right...

I just think it would inherently be hard for a projection to factor in injuries effectively. I think this may be a case where you would have to rely more on scouts.

by djk royal on Nov 19, 2008 11:13 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

thankyou

if you don’t think Rosa is going to come up and post a 3 something ERA well he will….Robinson Tejada already did that last year so expect him to improve….Gobble or Peralta will bounce back while the other will be D for A by May

Lets not forget Bale came off the DL and DOMINATED so Mahay and Bale are already set as left handed relievers

by GobbleforCyoung on Nov 19, 2008 2:19 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

you're assuming that Trey

will use Yimmy appropriately for him to bounce back.

Don't Stop Believing!

by KC Chris on Nov 19, 2008 2:30 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Hopefully this doesn't turn into an Eli Marerro situation

Guy who was playing on a playoff caliber team upset about being traded to the Royals.

by Top Ramen on Nov 19, 2008 10:56 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

I'm new...

to all these fancy-pants statistics. Is there a site you can point me to for Crisp’s and Jacob’s 2009 Doucheness Projections?

by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 19, 2008 11:08 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Positive

After a rocky first year, Coco was liked in Boston for his effort and for remaining professional when sharing time with Ellsbury. He should be happy to get to play every day.

by wetleg on Nov 19, 2008 11:23 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

My, my, my

What negativity! How suprising!

Seriously, Ramirez looks like he’ll be a pretty good bullpen guy for the next few years, but I’m not so sure we can expect repeats of last year’s performance. His HR/9 over 7 years in the minors was 0.98. His MLB career HR/9 before last season was 0.75. Last year, it magically dropped to 0.25. You can probably credit some of that drop to leaving the rockies, but that’s a big drop, and we don’t know if it’s for real at this point.

Ramirez was traded at the height of his value of his career to date while Crisp was arguably traded at the low point of his career to date, and even now, it doesn’t look too one-sided. They’re about the same age, and should provide about the same value. The difference for the Royals the money which makes me not crazy about this deal. On the other hand, Coco Crisp helps the team a lot, especially if Teahen is traded for a middle infielder, and you can fill Ramirez’s spot from within for free by bringing up Carlos Rosa.

I think if you can complement this move by moving Teahen for a middle infielder and perhaps a middle reliever, you could be looking at a borderline contending Royals team in 2009. And you could be looking at Grienke signing a below market long term contract with the newly winning Royals. The trade isn’t fantastic, but it isn’t terrible, and it makes the team better.

by kcdc1 on Nov 19, 2008 10:56 AM EST   0 recs

There's buying low

and there’s buying guys who have $9M in salaries coming off replacement-level campaigns.

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 19, 2008 11:00 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Come on bro

This trade is right up your alley—it’s a trade for defense, the new OBP! Crisp was injured all last year, so the stats weren’t great, but he is widely considered a very good defensive centerfielder and until last year, the stats widely agreed. Throwing out last year’s season of playing through injuries, Crisp is probably 5-10 runs better than DDJ in CF, and DDJ is probably 4-6 million runs better than Guillen in LF. How many wins does 6,000,010 runs translate to over the course of a season?

by kcdc1 on Nov 19, 2008 11:09 AM EST to parent up   0 recs