Mooreball - The Anti Moneyball
I have a final exam tonight 7 and I’m not prepared. I should be glued to my text book for the next 7 hours, no distractions. I should pretend the Winter Meetings don’t exist, which should be relatively easy to do (I fall for the Winter Meetings gag every single year. I spend four days doing google news searches every five minutes like a lab rat pressing a cocaine lever and every year I’m left scratching my head in the end). Well, today I’m taking fifteen minutes away from study time to write an observation about Dayton Moore that has finally sunk in. Now, I’m not going on a Farnsworth rant, although I could, mainly because the Winter Meetings thread is probably the most hilarious Farnsworth rant going on the internet right now. We Royals fans at the moment are like siblings in the back of a car on a long road trip.
“This is horrible!”
“No it isn’t, shut up and sit still.”
“I can’t. I won’t. This is awful!!”
“Mom!”
I’ve recently come to the conclusion that I never offer anything new in my posts. Today is no different. Here’s something you already knew about Dayton Moore coming straight at you – predictable as a Farnsworth fastball. And yet why does it feel like an epiphany to me?
Moore is head over heels in love with raw tools. He’s the anti-Moneyball. The Moneyball debate, as everyone knows, basically drew a line between old school scouts who were love with raw tools and heady folk who were in love with stats. (It’s amazing to me that a highly complex industry could watch and measure athletes for years, over 100 in this case, an industry in which millions of dollars ride on the accuracy of evaluations, where generations of evaluaters further and further refine their trade—in the same span of time another industry invented an airplane, then a rocket to the moon, then a space shuttle, then a robot who drives around the surface of Mars—and one day some guy shows up and says “You know what? You’ve been doing this wrong all along.” It’s not amazing to me that the guy showed up. It’s amazing that he was basically right.) I say ‘basically’ because there is something to raw athleticism. Cole Hamels, Zack Greinke, and Josh Hamilton are the results of scouts who based their evaluations on athleticism more than stats. Colt Grifin was, too. So it’s a mixed bag. And there are still two camps; for every stathead there’s a someone in love with the abstract notion of ‘athleticism’, and the secret of scouting lies between them.
I’m just guessing here without crunching numbers, but you could say that Justin Smoak represents the Stathead’s choice of best hitter available at the #3 pick in last year’s draft, while Eric Hosmer is the quintessential ‘raw tools’ pick. Hosmer might well win that competition, which is why I brought it up. I don’t want to just assume that the Moneyball approach is always right, even though it’s trendy to do so.
Back to Moore. What I knew all along, but have only this morning just truly understood in my scrambled brain, is how firmly Dayton Moore is in what I’m calling the raw tools camp. Dayton’s list of priorities in a baseball player are the following for hitters: 1. Speed. 2. Power. 3. Likely to perform very well in a Decathelon. 4. Able to do 300 pushups. 5. Flexible. 6. Can jump very high. 7. Has a good batting eye and works the count.
For Relievers: 1. Throws 97 mph. 2. Throws 96 mph. 3. Throws 95 or above. 4. Has good movement and control.
Now, I specify Relievers here because Brian Bannister and Kyle Davies have dispelled the notion of a total raw tools approach to starters. And for me that’s a good sign. That tells me Dayton has a plan, an approach; he differentiates roles. Relievers should be toolsy, Starters can be more subtle (although he’d like for them to be toolsy).
One credit you have to give to Moore: he has an approach. He’s got an idea out there, but perhaps to a fault; strong conviction can sometimes become blind conviction, just ask George Bush.
Anyway, Kyle Farnsworth iced this epiphany for me. He throws 95+. Back in the day, he threw close to 100. Every other indicator shows he is quite the simplistic pitcher. Just rear back and see how fast you can heave that sucker. Mike Jacobs is Farnsworth’s offensive equivalent. Grip it and rip it, no complexity here. I can’t say Crisp is the speed version, but he’s a little too close for my comfort.
Here’s the upshot of all of this: with guys like Jacobs and Guillen and Crisp and Farnsworth (ßthat’s quite a few raw tools, no?), there’s a chance they could all pan out in one glorious explosion. There’s a chance they could fall flat. It’s just a huge gamble. It’s like Posnanski said after the Meche acquisition, Moore is a gambling man.
61 comments
|
4 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
and you rightly point out
this also trickles down to other moves, like the jacobs & crisp deals
if you were making a movie and needed a sterotypical baseball team, you’d have the royals
sadly, we aren’t making a movie
Acquiring a bunch of mediocre players isn't a gamble
It’s a safe way to get to .500, and not beyond.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
Moneyball isn't about stats vs scouts
It’s about developing a methodology to do more with a dollar than your competitors do. 5-10 years ago, that might have been an increased focus on stats. I’m not sure it’s so clear-cut anymore. The people on this board like stats because that’s all we see, but scouting has real value too, and if you focus too much emphasis on stastical analysis, you start overpaying for things like plate discipline in an 18 year old when size is actually more valuable.
by kcdc1 on Dec 11, 2008 2:38 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Scouts vs. Computers
For numbers to really matter, there needs to be ~600 AB or BF to really start getting good numbers for a batter or a pitcher ability. Anything less than that is could be noise. Scouting really comes into play when sample size is less than ~600 AB or BF and results (numbers) are more useful after that point.
Beane liked college players because he had enough data to tell if the talent was any good. With HS and Latin America players, scouts are more important. With HS talent, they are such heads and tails better than the people they play against, it is tough to get a true gauge of there ability, except in All-Star tournaments where there is a small sample size.
by Jeff Zimmerman on Dec 11, 2008 5:31 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Good points
I’ve always said that I think there is a sliding scale. On the one end of the spectrum is a teenager with no professional baseball experience. On the other end is a 20-year MLB veteran. For the first player, stats are essentially irrelevant, and it’s all about tools (and, therefore scouting). For the second player, tools are essentially irrelevant, and it’s all about the stats. As a player’s professional career progresses, the scale slides. For a 20-year-old in A-ball, I think most of his evaluation should come from tools, body and similar projectable traits. For a 25-year-old with a couple of MLB seasons under his belt, the evaluation involves a lot of attention to both stats and tools.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 11, 2008 9:37 PM EST up reply actions
Stats are norms, ...
…therefore you can measure aspiring young ballplayers against norms as soon as 1/2 of a minor league season. By having norms you coach a ballplayer on how to improve. The objective facts can be backed up by subjective coaching techniques.
But assessing stats versus tools is a false dichotomy. Stats begin to reflect tools early. For instance, OBP is a tool that can be measured early. Having the knack/skill for taking an extra base is another tool that can be measured (via doubles v. singles, stolen bases, moving up on errors, etc.). – TL
[In 2008] Kila Ka’aihue had the best on-base percentage of any hitter in the minor leagues. - Joe Posnanski, 11/9/2008 ... Ergo, let's give him a shot at first base in KC in 2009.
I disagree with your 20 year vet example.
I’d say that “tools” are equally important, maybe even moreso for the 20 year old vet. That 20 year old vet is very likely to be ready to jump off the cliff at any moment. How “athletic” he is, how fit he is, how well he takes care of himself is going to play a very important role in whether he can stay healthy and productive.
A guy who can still put up an 850 OPS, but cannot run the bases without pulling his hamstring, or straining his calf, or tweaking his groin, has NOT aged well, and has NOT held onto his skills.
Stats, at least not the stats that people mean when they use word, cannot tell you anything about how likely that 20 year vet is going to be able to stay healthy.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
I’d say that "tools" are equally important, maybe even moreso for the 20 year old vet. That 20 year old vet is very likely to be ready to jump off the cliff at any moment. How "athletic" he is, how fit he is, how well he takes care of himself is going to play a very important role in whether he can stay healthy and productive.
A statistical profile will give you a good idea of a player’s likely decline curve. Some information about tools like speed and athleticism help with this profile. But no, I definitely wouldn’t say that tools are more important than stats in evaluating a 20-year MLB vet. Definitely not. Quite frankly, I don’t think there is a serious analyst, front office staffer or sabermetrician who would disagree.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Dec 14, 2008 3:02 AM EST up reply actions
Quite frankly,
this is PRECISELY why hardcore statheads are often derided.
Your “likely” decline curve is fine, in the abstract. In the real world, human players do not decline at the same rate, just as they do not mature at the same rate. That “likely” decline curve would not have projected that Julio Franco could play into his 40s. A “stathead” like you would just claim “luck”, “random variation”. Other people, would point out that Franco is extremely committed to physical fitness, and is very fit. Similarly, Raul Ibanez.
“Analysts” or sabermetricians can disagree all they want. Most of them know close to nothing about the science involved in physical performance. Most of them couldn’t tell you what the function of the hamstring is.
Despite the claims of some, variations in physical performance are NOT simply “luck” or “random variation” Hint, just because a stathead doesn’t understand something doesn’t mean that it is all “luck” or “random variation”.
Stats are only one tool. NOT the only tool. Stats alone do not describe the world, despite what some statisticians would like to claim.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
"Analysts" or sabermetricians can disagree all they want. Most of them know close to nothing about the science involved in physical performance. Most of them couldn’t tell you what the function of the hamstring is.
And what does an evaluation of a 20-year MLB veteran’s tools have to do with the “science involved in physical performance?” Think major league scouts can tell you a lot about how a hamstring works? Please.
The kind of half-assed analysis of older players you support, including a strong focus on how athletic a player is and his work ethic, etc. is the kind of thing that continues to get Darin Erstad major league contracts. But ol’ Darin is extremely committed to physical fitness! Keep up the good work, rfloh. It’s always fun when you come over here to share your unique insights.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Dec 14, 2008 10:19 PM EST up reply actions
Why do you have to only rely on
scouts to evaluate a player’s tools? Teams hire trainers. Strength coaches.
The kind of half-assed analysis of older players you support, including a strong focus on how athletic a player is and his work ethic, etc. is the kind of thing that continues to get Darin Erstad major league contracts. But ol’ Darin is extremely committed to physical fitness! Keep up the good work, rfloh. It’s always fun when you come over here to share your unique insights.
Yeah, it’s half-assed if all you understand is statistics. Sorry, just because statisticians don’t understand something doesn’t mean it’s random variation. Your obsession with using statistics as the only tool is the kind of thing that results in teams like the A’s ending up with a roster full of injured players. It’s all random variation and bad luck.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
Why do you have to only rely on
scouts to evaluate a player’s tools? Teams hire trainers. Strength coaches.
Trainers and strength coaches could be useful for that kind of evaluation of a team’s own players, but not free agents or players on other teams who could be acquired by trade.
Yeah, it’s half-assed if all you understand is statistics.
Please, your insults are tired and misplaced.
Sorry, just because statisticians don’t understand something doesn’t mean it’s random variation. Your obsession with using statistics as the only tool is the kind of thing that results in teams like the A’s ending up with a roster full of injured players.
Yeah, the A’s front office is bad at putting together a good team and you could have saved them from that. This is getting sad. Just go away.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Dec 15, 2008 3:16 AM EST up reply actions
And the refusal to pay any attention to
work ethic is why a fat lazy player, like oh, Andruw Jones, falling off the cliff is “bad luck”.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
Ned Colletti signed Jones
He’s hardly a stathead, rfloh.
Stathead, Zack Greinke fan, and Rock Band 2 singer extraordinaire.
Ha.
Now there’s a convincing argument.
Stathead, Zack Greinke fan, and Rock Band 2 singer extraordinaire.
Ha.
It’s more convincing than simply writing off anything you don’t understand as “luck”, and “random variation”.
It’s more convincing than simply saying that a GM or team got “lucky” or “unlucky” with health.
There is a humongous amount of information on training science. The refusal of stathead analysts who present themselves as experts on baseball to even bother to learn the basic, is no different from the refusal of “old school” writers to learn about the basics of OBP and linear weights.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
If you're lumping me into this hypothetical category
of statheads who don’t consider ANYTHING other than the numbers, than you’re wrong to do so. More so, I find it kind of insulting that I even have to deny such a ridiculous idea.
I don’t write off anything I don’t understand as “luck” or “random variation,” and nor do the better statisical analysts. You’re just blowing smoke.
Stathead, Zack Greinke fan, and Rock Band 2 singer extraordinaire.
And he responded to a comment of mine in which I pointed out the great importance of scouting. And yet he gets so worked up that someone dare disagree with him that he throws the “you think only stats are important” BS at me. It’s tired, weak and lazy. How ironic since those are qualities that he doesn’t like in baseball players.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Dec 15, 2008 4:24 AM EST up reply actions
i agree with your premise
You have to look at BOTH stats and tools/scouting.
Favoring one or the other too much is probably not good.
Founder of the Johnny Giavotella fan club.
Wait a minute, I'm confused
You missed GRIT. Grit has GOT to be somewhere in these priorities. I’ll read again, must have missed it.
i think it's so far ahead of anything on the list that it defies readability
some type of optical illusion

by Fernando Vina School of Linguistics on Dec 12, 2008 1:20 AM EST up reply actions
Power Arms
First thing Moore did when he got to KC was trade away all the power arms in the bullpen. That to me is not a sign preferring tools. Maybe he just knew we needed to rebuild and that was the one commodity we had to trade with. Bullpen arms are always fungible and Moore has shown the willingness to constantly move them.
I always thought Baird was the old-school scout & Tools potential guy. He just didn’t have the resources to acquire the best tools. Moore is more of a character makeup guy. (Guillen and Farny not-withstanding)
by David Howards Legacy on Dec 12, 2008 2:41 PM EST reply actions
First thing Moore did when he got to KC was trade away all the power arms in the bullpen. That to me is not a sign preferring tools.
Ok, tools and makeup. Just about everything Moore has done has shown his love of tools uber alles. But makeup, unfortunately, is also extremely important to him.
Bullpen arms are always fungible and Moore has shown the willingness to constantly move them.
Unfortunately, Farnsworth will be completely unmovable with his contract. No one is going to pay that much money for Farnsworth. Not even half of it. There’s no good out for the Royals and that particular signing.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 12, 2008 2:54 PM EST up reply actions
unless
the unforeseen and McClure is actually able to effect large improvements to him. I think most folks believe that isn’t going to happen. Given his age and reputation, that’s probably correct.
I’m willing to give Moore credit for finding relievers who are better than most people think they are. And McClure can help pitchers sometimes. And Farnsy had some bad luck in recent seasons. So sure, he should improve. But getting up to merely below average would be an improvement for him. Improving up to being a league average reliever would be a significant improvement. Improving up to being above average would be a big improvement. Do I think that Moore’s scouting abilities to find hidden talent and McClure’s magic are likely enough to affect a big improvement on Farnsy? No. And even if he improves enough to be merely above average, he’s still be overpaid.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 12, 2008 3:03 PM EST up reply actions
I think that's the key point
Even if Farnsworth comes in an puts up Ramirez v2008 numbers, the Royals still overpaid by a good 4-5 M dollars.
yes...
but then in 24 hours he reacquired two retreads in Ho-Ram & Jairo
which is an interesting variation on reliever fungibility
Of all of the things that one can criticize Dayton Moore for...
…the waiver claims of Jairo Cuevas aren’t even on the list. It’s like criticizing Rod Blagojevich for the color of shirt he’s wearing.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 12, 2008 3:20 PM EST up reply actions
I would go with his haircut...
Have you seen how that guy wears his hair?
by Sweep_the_Leg on Dec 12, 2008 3:22 PM EST up reply actions
Helmet hair is still popular with politicians for some reason
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 12, 2008 3:31 PM EST up reply actions
um
my sarcastic retort was meant to be dripping in humorous irony, I guess it wasn’t obvious enough since I thought the comical Jairo sweeps was
My comment was just joining into the mini-thread, not as a criticism of you
Some people look down their nose at a waiver claim of Cuevas, for some reason. Not only is it not a big deal in the scheme of thing (including much bigger and awful moves), but there is really nothing to criticize about it at all.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 12, 2008 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
well, you can criticize it by saying
“Why would we sign Cuevas? He wasn’t even good enough to play for the Royals!”
This space intentionally left blank.
wait a minute
1. Jose Guillen says hi.
2. Why is it bad to want guys with good makeup? It’s a good thing to have. I’m guessing it’s not important to statheads because you can’t calculate it, but…i digress.
Founder of the Johnny Giavotella fan club.
I didn’t mean that Moore only acquires guys with good makeup. But it appears that he values tools and/or makeup higher than actual performance. Having a good makeup has value. It is considerably less valuable than being a player who actually performs well on the field.
Ok, time for your next tired stathead joke.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Dec 12, 2008 7:10 PM EST up reply actions
and doesn't makeup have a different (albeit very important) value
when evaluating a young, developing player (dealing with life on the road, failure for the first time, etc.) than with older players who are already established?
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 12, 2008 9:26 PM EST up reply actions
yes
makeup is vital for young players in most cases.
it’s still important at the MLB level. makeup isn’t all about being an asshole sometimes, so citing Guillen probably wasn’t the best. guillen has desire and passion for baseball, and he legitimately wants to play 162 games. he probably wouldn’t say a word so long he is playing and the team is winning on a somewhat consistent basis. i don’t know exactly how much that factors into anything, but if it has value to so many clubs, you think it would.
Founder of the Johnny Giavotella fan club.
You can find plenty of people who'd like to play
162 times a year. And also plenty who complain less and produce more.
Nice job coming up with an original poke at statheads, by the way. You did yourself proud there.
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
which are more likely to live in their mother's basement:
statheads or sports bloggers?
This space intentionally left blank.
I'm not sure how much Moore is into character makeup
at least at the major league level.
In the past year he’s signed Guillen and Farnsworth and traded for Callaspo. And he almost traded for Milton Bradley. (He’s also allowing Gibbons to be an assistant coach next year)
I like the Cuevas pickup too
And he sort of reinforces my point about Moore, I think. He’s a super athletic guy who throws gas. With young guys like Cuevas, Hosmer, Moustakas, Melville, going for tools and projectability is good. The (potential) problem with Moore is that he seems to follow that philosphy with his major league free agent signings as well. He’s in love with raw speed and power. There’s nothing polished about Kyle Farnsworth, he’s just pure power. Ditto Mike Jacobs. Joey Gathright is pure speed.
Fortunately, it’s just a tendencey and not an absolute rule, Brian Bannister is the total opposite, he’s more about skills than tools. I don’t want to draw too thick of a line here, I think there are players who have skills AND tools — Greinke, (Butler?, Gordon?) — and Moore has signed at least one in Gil Meche.
But I think sometimes his lust for speed and power gets the better of him and causes him to do silly things like sign that Farnsworth contract. Or make that Jacobs trade. Both of these moves seem really irrational, but maybe we can at least understand why Moore did it if we remember his weakness for speed and power. He wants to build this team like a Ford Mustang—not a terribly efficient or finely manufactured car, but it’s got some horsepower.
There are a lot of baseball people who really look closely at numbers who are driven crazy by this approach. I’m not even a hard-core analyst and drives me crazy if I think about it. But there’s this kid inside of me who is secretly—and completely irrationally, mind you—excited about the idea of having a masher in the lineup. My excitement will evaporate soon enough—when Jacobs strikes out 30 times in April…that’s my brain talking again.
I'm about to change my username to DannyDuffyfan
by jackie ballgame on Dec 12, 2008 5:39 PM EST reply actions
is makes sense to take a waiver-wire chance on a guy like Cuevas, for (practically) nothing to see what you can get. Who knows? He’s young enough that he might turn into something for very little. It’s the same reason why it’s worth taking a $1M chance or whatever on guys like D-Rob in every draft — even if the individual doesn’t man out, the possible rewards are great.
32 year-old relievers, on the other hand…
good posts, jackie ballgame
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 12, 2008 5:43 PM EST up reply actions
Good point...
But shouldn’t you be studying?
by FretFriendly on Dec 12, 2008 5:47 PM EST up reply actions
I wish Moore thought of plate discipline as a tool…and then acted accordingly.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Dec 12, 2008 5:59 PM EST up reply actions
I've got my HeebeeGeeBees In a Little Bag
Yes, I should absolutely be studying, thank you (I’ll have you know, however, that I’m studying statistical research, so be prepared for posts that actually contain (amateur) regression analysis…a.k.a. Real Knowledge!).
By the way, I’ve got the new Oasis album and it has this lyric in the first song, “I’ve Got my HeebeeGeebees in a Little Bag”… That is…that is just the worst lyric I’ve heard in a long, long time. Maybe ever. I’m deleting the album from my iPod immediately on principle.
I'm about to change my username to DannyDuffyfan
by jackie ballgame on Dec 12, 2008 11:42 PM EST reply actions
don't make me repost
the entirety of Neil Diamond’s “Porcupine Pie”
This space intentionally left blank.
who cares what he looks for in relievers...
it obviously works so i dont see why your complaining about it.
home of the 2010 world series champs
And then he signed Farnsworth for 2/9.25 and HoRam for 1/1.8
…after trading RamRam and Nunez.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Dec 18, 2008 8:52 PM EST up reply actions
what, do you really think there are guys like, oh, Jeff Nelson who are going to be non-tendered?
oh wait
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 18, 2008 9:35 PM EST up reply actions
I don't want Jeff Nelson
I think he’s pretty much done as a major league pitcher. His little brother Joe on the other hand…
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Dec 18, 2008 9:43 PM EST up reply actions
D'oh!
heh. I obviously meant Joe, but well-played.
The funny thing is, whenever I look up Joe in my personal Marcels database, I somehow end up with Jeff’s projection and think, “wow, this guy sucks” for about 5 seconds before I realize what happened.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 18, 2008 9:50 PM EST up reply actions

by 



















