Virtually all sportswriters, I suppose, believe that Jim Rice is an outstanding player. If you ask them how they know this, they'll tell you that they just know; I've seen him play. That's the difference in a nutshell between knowledge and bullshit; knowledge is something that can be objectively demonstrated to be true, and bullshit is something that you just 'know.' If someone can actually demonstrate that Jim Rice is a great ballplayer, I'd be most interested to see the evidence.
Bill James, 1985 Baseball Abstract
11 months ago
devil_fingers
30 comments
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Comments
Easy
Measure the pitcher’s heart rate when Rice steps into the box. If it goes up, then clearly Rice is a fearsome presence.
Science is easy!
by raefzilla on Dec 15, 2008 1:19 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Nice quote, and timely too
Bill James understands the value of what we can see with our own eyes when we watch a player play.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Dec 15, 2008 1:42 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
At the risk of sounding like a bumbling idiot
I’ll take a .298/.352/.502/.854 (128 OPS+) line in a pitchers’ era any day. Was his defense that bad? And his SB success rate isn’t that significant, when he’s stealing only a handful of bases each year, and even fewer in the latter 1/2.
Maybe my expectations are just too low. Hey, I don the Royal blue, figuratively, after all.
by Royals Nation on Dec 15, 2008 3:12 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I think Bill James is talking about at least two things.
First, it depends on what means by “outstanding.” Second, in that book, James mentions several times how much some merely ok players were helped by their home park. Rice was helped greatly. While his career line was .298/.352/.502/.854, his career numbers outside the very hitter friendly confines of Fenway Park were .277/.330/.459/.789. That’s not good for a corner OFer with limited range in that era.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Dec 15, 2008 3:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The double plays get mentioned a lot
And I believe the metrics show yes, he was a poor defender, while Bostonians insist HE KNEW HOW TO PLAY THE GREEN MONSTER WELL!
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Dec 15, 2008 10:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Jack Morris is getting in this year
I have read too many columns from BBWAA members saying they’re voting for him.
HE KNEW HOW TO WIN!!!!! BY ALLOWING MORE RUNS WHEN HE HAD TO!
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Dec 15, 2008 10:40 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Morris
I’m not sure if he is a hall of famer, but if he gets in, he can look back and thank his performance in that ’91 world series. Quite possibly, the greatest game in the last 30 years
by GoBabies!! on Dec 15, 2008 11:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+ one of the greatest quotes of all time
Not saying I agree with the sentiment, but his take on female reporters in the locker room makes me laugh despite myself:
“I don’t talk to women when I’m naked unless they’re on top of me or I’m on top of them.”
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Dec 15, 2008 11:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Even I'm laughing at that,
despite running into a lot of that sentiment already as a lady-writer.
by minda33 on Dec 15, 2008 5:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
roy white was better
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Dec 15, 2008 10:59 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
And I don't think Rice is a HOF'er
personally. He was a really good player, just not sure if he is HOF worthy. Remember, the HOF isn’t gor good players, it is for the all time great players.
by GoBabies!! on Dec 15, 2008 11:39 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
He belongs in the Hall of Very Very Good with Andre Dawson, Dale Murphy, Lou Whitaker, Jimmy Wynn, Roy White, Dave Parker, Frank White, Bobby Grich, Don Mattingly, Keith Hernandez, and Steve Garvey.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Dec 15, 2008 12:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with all of the names you mentioned
None of them are HOF’ers IMHO.
I freaking hate that just because the voters say those players aren’t HOF’ers, the media & bloggers take that as meaning the voters think they sucked.
It’s asinine. Its the freaking HOF. If you let the Dale Murphy’s of the world in, it doens’t mean shit to be a HOF’er
by GoBabies!! on Dec 15, 2008 12:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Grich is a HOFer
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Dec 15, 2008 12:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I would be comfortable with him in there
No chance he ever makes it though.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Dec 15, 2008 12:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
probably not...
you’re one the historian among us, why not? Is it a Darrell Evans situation? Great player, but had “too much” of a broad base of skills (walks, defense, secondary power) without standing out in the areas that get attention (BA, HRs, RBIs)?
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Dec 15, 2008 1:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
.266 batting average
Seriously, I think that’s the big thing holding him back.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Dec 15, 2008 1:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
what a surprise
I guess he doesn’t have the intangibles like Kirby Puckett (ahem).
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Dec 15, 2008 1:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think you're missing the point
It’s called the Hall of Fame.
All that matters is this: Was this Rice guy “famous”?
Kansas City Royals: your 2006 and 2007 NL Central champions!
by mazoboom on Dec 15, 2008 5:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No no no, you're looking at it wrong...
It’s the Hall of Fame. Was Rice a hall?
by minda33 on Dec 15, 2008 5:55 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I've long been pushing
For Mel Hall to make it on these grounds.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Dec 15, 2008 6:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Hall of Halls
by M.C. Escher
Kansas City Royals: your 2006 and 2007 NL Central champions!
by mazoboom on Dec 15, 2008 6:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Jim Rice memory
This game … It was about a 4 hour road trip for us to the stadium, my dad, brother and I got up early and stood in line for a long time for left field GA tickets. in the bottom of the 1st Willie Wilson hit an inside-the-parker that Rice kicked around a little right in front of us. It ended up being the only run scored in the game and Rice got heckled mercilessly the rest of the game.
I was only 9 so I don’t remember a lot of the details, but I’m sure I was pretty disappointed at the lack of offense….quintessential Royals of the day – speed and pitching.
We always did feel the same, We just saw it from a different point of view, Tangled up in blue.
-Bob Dylan
by Royal Kingdom on Dec 15, 2008 12:24 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
BaseballAnalysts.com on Rice
A Boston sportswriter made yet another case for Rice getting into the HOF. Pat Sullivan tears it to shreds.
The case against Rice is simple.
1) Playing home games in Fenway drastically inflates the value of his production. Hitting in the same lineup as players like Wade Boggs and Dwight Evans (a much, much better Hall candidate btw) inflates his RBI total. Context matters.
2) He did not play for a very long time by Hall standards; did not play at a HOF level for enough seasons.
3) His defense or base running were not such that they make up for his batting statistics, which fall well short of HOF caliber.
The sportswriter who makes the case for Rice has this to say about many of us:
On the other hand, we have members of Bill James Youth who’ve never been out of the house who believe Rice has no business being in the Hall.
Its nice to see that he jumps over the slide rule and pocket protector stereotype and goes straight for the Nazi reference. Sweet.
And he ends with this gem:
Guess you had to be there. Or maybe talk to some of the players and managers who were there.
He saw him play with his own eyes! That means so much more than your precious, meaningless stats!
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Dec 15, 2008 8:40 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
confession
that article is where I found the quote
analysts is an underrated site
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Dec 15, 2008 9:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Your BJ's NHBA series is supposed to be an original work with you finding the quotes yourself
No cheating.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Dec 15, 2008 9:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
but this wasn't part of the series!
it was from the old abstracts… not in print!
(They should reissue them on CD-ROM)
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Dec 15, 2008 9:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs















