Dayton Moore Report Card
Ever since Dayton Moore was hired as the General Manager of the Kansas City Royals in May of 2006, I’ve been continually evaluating and re-evaluating him. I guess that’s what fans do with GM’s. All of this evaluation has been with the caveat that there has been less data to evaluate him on than I’d like for a sound, comprehensive evaluation. Well, this offseason has given us several more data points. And while the evaluation of a GM, just like with a player, is never done, I think we have a good picture of what kind of GM Dayton Moore is and how good he is.
Since it is final exam season for many of you, I decided to put this evaluation in the form of a report card. There are several categories which we must look at (classes) and they are given their appropriate weight (credit hours). Assigning a grade to each will allow us to come up with GPA for Dayton Moore. I’ll call it his General manger Proficiency Average.
For each category, I’m listing several relevant moves. They aren’t complete lists, but they should cover all of the major moves and many of the lesser moves as well.
Class: Draft – Pitchers
Credit Hours: 3
Sam Runion, RHP (Rd. 2, 2007)
Dan Duffy, LHP (Rd. 3, 2007)
Peter Hodge Nielsen, RHP (Rd. 4, 2007)
Casey Feickert, RHP (Rd. 8, 2007)
Zach Kenyon, RHP (Rd. 9, 2007 - Did not sign)
Greg Holland, RHP (Rd. 10, 2007)
Alex Caldera, RHP (Rd. 13, 2007)
Matt Mitchell, RHP (Rd. 14, 2007)
Michael Montgomery, LHP (Rd. 1A, 2008)
Tyler Sample, RHP (Rd. 3, 2008)
Tim Melville, RHP (Rd. 4, 2008)
John Lamb, LHP (Rd. 5, 2008)
Malcolm Culver, RHP (Rd. 8, 2008)
Derrick Saito, LHP (Rd. 16, 2008)
You’ll notice that I didn’t include anything from the 2006 draft. Moore was hired just before the draft and the Royals, Moore and the Braves had an agreement that since Moore was heavily involved in the Braves draft preparation and had all of their scouting info on potential draftees, he wouldn’t be involved in the Royals draft. Some have shown skepticism that Moore would actually abide by this agreement and keep his hands off of his new team’s draft, but I’m inclined to believe he wouldn’t make that agreement and then immediately go back on it, stabbing his old team and mentor in the back.
Another reason to not give Moore the credit or blame for the 2006 draft is that while general managers are entirely responsible and accountable for his team’s amateur draft, he’s not usually intimately involved in it. He is responsible for the team that puts a draft board together and makes the decisions, but he’s not making all or even most of the draft calls. And since Moore had just been hired, even if it was “his draft,” he hadn’t had time yet to put all of his team in place or evaluate the guys who were currently working on the Royals draft. Nor would he have had time to replace the draft team if he had wanted to. In short, I think a fair and honest evaluation of Moore’s drafts should only include 2007 and 2008.
The Royals 2007 draft was a little light on good pitching prospects. We don’t yet know how any prospect drafted in the last two years by the Royals will eventually pan out, but we can evaluate them now based on how they look, how they have performed and how analysts view them. Duffy was a great find in round 3. Runion looked to be a stretch in the second round, and still looks that way. The others haven’t shown much, except that Caldera looks like he was a steal in Round 13.
The 2008 draft was much more pitcher-productive. According to some, like Baseball America, the Royals got three first round-quality pitching talents in their rounds 1A, 3 and 4 selections. Montgomery and Melville are top 10 Royals prospects and Sample is at least in the top 15. Moore’s team showed a good eye for pitching talent, as well as a willingness to go overslot to sign pitchers like Melville, Saito and several others.
Overall, Moore has done a good job of drafting pitchers. His people can usually evaluate pitching talent well and they are willing to spend the money necessary to sign them. But one ok year and one very good year doesn’t get you an “A”.
Grade: B
Class: Draft – Position Players
Credit Hours: 3
Mike Moustakas, SS (Rd. 1, 2007)
Adrian Ortiz, CF (Rd. 5, 2007)
Fernando Cruz, SS (Rd. 6, 2007)
Hilton Richardson, LF (Rd. 7, 2007)
David Lough, CF (Rd. 11, 2007)
Sean McCauley, C (Rd. 12, 2007)
Eric Hosmer, 1B (Rd. 1, 2008)
Johnny Giavotella, 2B (Rd. 2, 2008)
Alex Llanos, SS (Rd. 6, 2008)
Jason Esposito, 3B (Rd. 7, 2008 – Did not sign)
John Alfaro, SS (Rd. 9, 2008)
Mauricio Matos, C (Rd. 10, 2008)
Malcolm Bronson, OF (Rd. 11, 2008)
I see two really good prospects on that list, and that’s about it. I think the Royals did well with Moustakas and Hosmer, but it’s hard to go really wrong with a pick that high. And while Moustakas is a very good prospect, the Royals erred bigtime in not picking Wieters. Overall I don’t see much to get excited about other than those top two prospects. I see some tools, but nothing that really blows me away. Ortiz is toolsy but very raw and hasn’t shown much on the field. Giavotella looks good, but most say he’s not a high ceiling player. The others have some promise but nothing to get particularly excited about. Two top prospects from good draft slots, the Wieters miss and a bunch of ho-hum picks adds up to a less than spectacular grade.
Grade: C-
Class: Free Agents and Contract Extensions - Pitchers
Credit Hours: 3
Gil Meche
Brett Tomko
David Riske
Ron Mahay
Horacio Ramirez (second acquisition)
Joakim Soria (contract extension)
John Bale (first acquisition)
John Bale (second acquisition)
Yasuhiko Yabuta
Kyle Farnsworth
Doug Waechter
That’s quite a muddled picture. I think the Meche signing and Soria extension were great moves, probably the two best of Moore’s tenure. Meche has performed at a level better than his salary for each of the first two seasons of the contract. And Soria is an elite closer with starter potential with a contract that bought out two free agency years. This contract makes him very valuable both as a player and as a potential trading chip. Also on the plus side, in a much smaller degree, is the Riske signing, which gave us good pitching and supplementary round draft pick.
Then there’s the other side of the coin. Mahay and Tomko were a bit expensive for their actual and likely production. Bale was ok, but didn’t earn his salary due to injuries both years, but I do like his cheap re-signing. Yabuta has been a complete failure so far. And the Ramirez re-acquisition and the Farnsworth signing look like significant overspends for marginal talent. I could say more about the wisdom of these signings, but suffice it to say that the magnitude of the mistakes here is quite high.
Overall, you’ve got two big pluses (Meche and the Soria extension), one big minus (the Farnsworth signing) and a bunch of smaller minuses. In sum, I think the magnitude of the pluses is greater than that of the minuses.
Grade: B-
Class: Free Agents and Contract Extensions – Position Players
Credit Hours: 3
Jose Guillen
Ross Gload (contract extension)
Mark Grudzielanek (twice re-signed)
Wow, is the list that short? Really? I am ashamed to admit that I liked the signing of Jose Guillen at the time. His 2008 performance coupled with a deeper understanding of the value of defense has shown me that it was a truly massive mistake. While I think his hitting will be better in 2009 than it was in 2008, it and his defense are going to make him worth much, much less than the money he’s getting. Ross Gload’s contract extension was a smaller mistake, but clearly a failure on Moore’s part. He wasn’t worthy of the money. He wasn’t worthy of two guaranteed years. And his presence on the roster and in the lineup took some playing time away from Butler and kept Shealy in Omaha. I don’t know if Shealy is any good, but he has/had some potential, while Gload’s best days are behind him (and they weren’t that good).
Grudzielanek was a good player for the Royals, but that doesn’t mean re-signing him over and over again was a smart move. He hit ok for a second baseman and his defense was pretty good, but his range decreased with every year. And when the Royals had German and then Callaspo, Grudz didn’t really make any sense on this team, especially when he cost $4M+. His final re-signing did eventually give rise to a arbitration offer, a rejection and thus a likely supplementary round compensation pick.
There’s only one grade that fits these moves.
Grade: F
Class: Trades – Pitchers and Position Players
Credit Hours: 6
Howell – Gathright
Dessens – Perez/Johnson/Pimentel/cash
Affeldt/Bautista – Shealy
Sisco – Gload
Cordier – Pena
PTBNL – LaRue/cash
Huber – pack of Big League Chew
Graffanino – De La Rosa
De La Rosa – R. Ramirez
R. Ramirez – Crisp
Burgos - Bannister
Buckner – Callaspo
H. Ramirez – Orlando
Nunez - Jacobs
This is clearly a mixed bag. There are many small and moderate pluses and many small and moderate minuses. None of these trades was an absolute killer and none of them was a spectacular win. Moore has recognized the fungibility of relievers and traded them frequently and with mixed results. Turning Dessens into an affordable place holder starting pitcher and two decent prospects was impressive. The serial parlays of turning Graffanino into DLR into RamRam into Crisp was nicely played. Trading a live arm with crappy results and a one-cent head (Burgos) into an effective starting pitcher (Bannister) was inspired. Trading Howell for Gathright was poor talent evaluation and need prioritization. I think Shealy for Affeldt/Bautista was a wash given that it was only 1 ½ years of team control of a mildly effective relief pitcher for what appeared to be a MLB-ready power hitting first baseman. Nunez for Jacobs was a clear screw up.
There were clear wins and clear losses, but I’ll give Moore credit for coming out on top more often than not.
Grade: C+
Class: Waiver Claims, Minor League Contracts, Rule 5 Draft
Credit Hours: 2
Joakim Soria
Horacio Ramirez (first acquisition)
Robinson Tejeda
Jason Smith
Brayan Pena
J.R. House
There are many more than this, but most of them were very minor and not worth mentioning. Soria is the obvious standout here. Moore’s team found a true impact player in the Rule 5 Draft. While there was some talk about him before the draft, he wasn’t a “how could he be left unprotected? He’s great and he’s definitely going to get snatched up fast!” This was a big one and Moore gets great credit for it.
Other moves like picking up H. Ramirez and turning him into an effective reliever, and doing the same thing with Tejeda and the other moves were all mild positives that made sense and were a wise use waiver power and minor league money.
As these are inherently low-risk moves, this is a tough class to fail. It’s the “Art Appreciation” of the GM’s report card. But Moore has done much better than merely passing this class by showing up. He’s found some real diamonds in the rough.
Grade: A
Class: Tender/Non-Tender Decisions
Credit Hours: 1
Non-tendered E. Brown in 2007
Tendered J. Smith in 2007
Re-signed Duckworth 2008
Non-tendered Bale
Tendered Gobble
Non-tendered Gathright
Re-signed German
Offered arbitration to Grudzielanek, which he rejected.
There isn’t a lot that jumps out at me. For the most part, he made wise decisions. Emil needed to go. He made a smart move in non-tendering Bale and re-signing him for less. He cut a good deal with German. He made the right move with Grudzielanek, gambling that he wouldn’t accept, and it paid off. I don’t know why he gave guaranteed major league money to Jason Smith in 2007, but oh well.
Grade: B+
Class: Promotions and Demotions
Credit Hours: 1
Butler called up in 2007
Butler sent down in 2008
Gordon stays in the majors for all of 2007 and 2008
Aviles called up in May 2008
Hochevar starts 2008 in Omaha
Brazell gets a cup of coffee in 2008
The Huber saga
A general manager can’t really control how players on the 25-man roster are used, but he can control who is on that roster. In addition to acquiring and dumping players, GM’s control who gets called up to the majors and who gets sent down. The above list isn’t bad, but it isn’t a great list either. I think Butler was called up needlessly early in 2007. He was so young and had less than a season of AAA experience. Neither impatience nor a frustrated fanbase are a good reason to rush a prospect. And in this case, I don’t mean “rush” as in hurt his development by move him up too fast. I mean push him up to the majors before he’s ready to really excel, perhaps leading the Royals to not get his best years out of the six years they’ll have control of him. This was partially mitigated in 2008 when the Royals sent Butler down for a while, adjusting his service time clock so that they’d get another year of team control out of him.
Moore handled Hochevar well. He got a full season in the minors, and then probably enough time in Omaha to start 2008 that the Royals will get an extra year of team control from him. It looks like he called him up at the right time, in the right way.
I can’t fault Moore for leaving the best prospect in baseball – Alex Gordon – in the majors for all of 2007. Sending him down may have helped, but I doubt it. For great talents like him, you don’t learn how to hit major league pitching by practicing against minor league pitching. And I think his 2008 performance showed that he really was a major leaguer who had no business in the minors.
And then there’s the guys Moore didn’t call up. He gets credit for calling up a guy who had appeared for a long time to be an unimpressive prospect – Mike Aviles – in May of 2008. Of course, TPJ as cratering and Aviles basically the only shortstop option so he wasn’t being too bold. But why wasn’t he that un-bold in 2007? Shealy was injured most of the season and Gload was, for the most part, sucking. Why not call up Brazell, who was having a freaky Aviles/Ka’aihue-like season? Why not call up Huber in 2006 or 2007 and finally give him a look? Their minor cups of coffee in September didn’t amount to much and so they don’t count for much. I really don’t think either of them would have panned out to be anything. But they were worth a look when there were holes on the team and few potentially decent options even in the minors.
Sticking with sub-mediocre vets too often for too long keeps Moore from getting a really good grade here.
Grade: B-
Class: Organization and Staffing
Credit Hours: 3
Increased spending in Latin America
Increased draft spending
Added another rookie league team
Replaced Ladnier
Hired Hillman
Added scouts, especially internationally
Made significant changes in the scouting staff
The increased spending on international free agents and increased draft spending are both big pluses, but Moore and Glass could and should do more. The failure to draft Wieters speaks to a lack of willingness to spend the extra million or two which might be necessary to get the best first round pick. Hopefully Moore and Glass had a change of heart which they showed in 2008. Moore could also spend a lot more on Latin American free agents. While I don’t think it makes sense to shell out $4M for one 16-year-old pitcher, I think it makes a lot of sense to spend that much money on eight toolsy 16-year-olds.
Adding another rookie league team and hiring new scouts is a big positive. These are things that cost considerably less than signing a mediocre veteran free agent, but pays huge dividends down the road. That’s the kind of financial efficiency which small market teams must employ. But the scouts have to be good in order for the investment to pay off. So far, I think it is fair to say that the Royals scouts have been very good at evaluating pitching talent and pretty poor at evaluating the talent of position players.
General managers run a large operation and many of the important evaluations, moves and decisions are delegated to staff. This doesn’t mean that the GM isn’t responsible for it, but it does show the importance of staffing decisions. This year, Moore replaced Deric Ladnier with J.J. Picollo as Scouting Director. Ladnier had been in charge of the Royals drafts for a long time. This included some great draft decisions and some horrible ones. But, overall, his drafts didn’t produce enough talent and he was one of the reasons Moore inherited one of the worst minor league systems in baseball. So, getting rid of Ladnier is a good thing, but it’s too soon to tell if Picollo is an improvement.
Moore’s other big hire was Trey Hillman. What can you say about Trey? He’s a run of the mill, garden variety, very average traditional manager. He doesn’t think outside the box. He wants the fastest guy at the top of the lineup. He’s willing to sac bunt in the third inning. He thinks that teams with less power have to run more. Is he a bad manager? No, he’s a normal, average manager who doesn’t take advantage of those things that a smart, open minded, progressive manager could take advantage of. Moore is a traditional GM who hired a very traditional manager. The hire was safe, boring and uninspired.
Again, there’s considerably more good than bad here. Most of these things represent real progress over the Moore era. But most of the good moves are good half moves.
Grade: B-
So let’s see what the grade card looks in total. I’m using a standard 4-point grade point system, with a +/- bonus/penalty of .2. This means that a B+ gets 3.2 points and a B- gets 2.8 points.
|
|
Grade |
Gr. Pts. |
Cr. Hours |
Credits |
|
Draft PIT |
B |
3 |
3 |
9 |
|
Draft PP |
C- |
1.8 |
3 |
5.4 |
|
Free Agent PIT |
B- |
2.8 |
3 |
8.4 |
|
Free Agent PP |
F |
0 |
3 |
0 |
|
Trade PIT & PP |
C+ |
2.2 |
6 |
13.2 |
|
Waiver/mlc/Rule 5 |
A |
4 |
2 |
8 |
|
Tender/Non-tender |
B |
3.2 |
1 |
3.2 |
|
Promotions/Demotions |
B- |
2.8 |
3 |
8.4 |
|
Org. & Staff |
B- |
2.8 |
2 |
5.6 |
|
TOTAL |
|
|
26 |
61.2 |
|
GPA |
C+ |
2.35 |
|
|
So what do we have here. I’m not going to pretend that this report card is some super-terrific advanced metric which tells you how good general manager is. But I do think that giving him a C+, meaning a bit better than average, is fairly appropriate. And if that’s how good he is, I don’t think he’s going to get the Royals into a League Championship Series. If a small market team’s GM is just a little above average, with some luck and players peaking together at the right time, you can get to the playoffs every now and then (think once or twice every 10 years…maybe). But that’s about it. Just good enough to squeak in occasionally and quickly get run out of the playoffs. That's not good enough. I hope more data points yield better results.
5 recs |
96 comments
|
Comments
Nifty little acronym there
I think you’re being a little tough on the position player signings. Failure to me seems to harsh. I think the Grudz moves were B moves at worst. German doesn’t really profile as a full time starter and Callaspo wasn’t ready for the job yet.
While I don’t like the Gload signing really either I see it as a hedge. Going in to last year we had no real 1B. Shealy was total dogcrap in 2007 and they didn’t have confidence in Butler I assume as the starting 1B in 2008 so we gave Gload a relatively cheap extension, probably a year too long, but I don’t know if anyone saw him cratering from mediocre to terrible. Anyways, with this being his only season left on his contract and at 1.9 million, I dont really see us keeping him around.
Guillen, yeah he was way overpaid, yeah he was terrible, yeah i dunno what to do about him. Really wierd we gave him 3/36 over 30 when his last two contracts were 2/6 and 1 5.5. Hopefully lesson learned though.
I think you left out Olivo. I think it was a pretty good signing. a .296 OBP against righties is still crap. Now the extension was retarded but whatever, thats a different section. God damn that was dumb.
Accidentally not thedude925 anymore. I do hate this new name.
by wildthang on Dec 18, 2008 8:53 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
dur. got kinda sidetracked there
meant to say something how his OBP is still miserable, but I dunno. Buck is only marginally better. I hope Buck still starts though.
I guess I’d give a B for Grudz resignings, C for Gload extension, C- for Guillen, and C- for Olivo. I guess I’d give a C there.
That would bump Moore’s GPA up to 2.58
Accidentally not thedude925 anymore. I do hate this new name.
by wildthang on Dec 18, 2008 8:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not sure how you give the Farnsworth deal an “F” before he’s ever played a game in a Royals uniform. Along these same lines, assigning grades to the 2007-08 drafts seems premature.
by lowlyroyal on Dec 18, 2008 8:59 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I know. And what's the deal with people harshing on San Fran's deal with ZIto
it’s only two years in to a seven year contract. Geez, people, wait and see how it turns out!
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Dec 18, 2008 9:32 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I think everything can be evaluated right now...and then as more data comes in on those moves, evaluations can change
More than a few commenters have said that it’s too soon to criticize the Farnsworth signing. What if Moore had signed Will Taveras to a 5 year, $55M contract? Would that be unassailable until he’d played a game for the Royals? We know something about Farnsworth. We know quite a bit about him. We also know something about the market for mediocre middle relievers. We also know what Moore can do for a bullpen by spending almost no money. So yeah, we can give that contract an F. If he ends up being an average MLB reliever for two years, I’ll give it a D+.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Dec 18, 2008 9:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Like I've said before
That’s why we play the season on paper.
Don't forget to send your broken maples to the US Forest Service.
by 306008 on Dec 18, 2008 10:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Similarly, ARod is one of the top 2-3 players in baseball
but the Rangers still ridiculously overpaid him when he signed the 10/250 deal. He was still outstanding when he played for them, but there was no way to live up to the dollars given.
by Top Ramen on Dec 18, 2008 11:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, (help me here, devil fingers), if each WAR
is worth $10m on the open market, then it’s not too hard to argue that A-Rod was UNDERPAID at $25m per season.
We’re only talking about the best player (not named Bonds) in the game over the last decade and a half.
Mr Glass, this is a pro sports team, not a retail store - run it like one!
by loyal2sdad on Dec 19, 2008 4:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure if I remember this right, but...
I thought each WAR was worth about $5M (give or take, depending on the year and which sabermetrician’s numbers you’re following).
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Dec 19, 2008 5:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm about to leave for the holidays, driving through the biggest Ontario snowstorm in years
and you guys think I care about this stuff???
Heh, of course i do.
Roughly, in the 2009 season, each WAR is $4.84M. So, multiply $4.84 times the number of WAR the player contributed, then add the $400,000 replacement salary (but only add it once, not for each WAR), and that’s what the player was “worth” on the FA market (pre arb and arb years are a different beast).
The number for 2008 was $4.4M
for 2007, I think $4M
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary since sometime in 2008.
by devil_fingers on Dec 19, 2008 6:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Feliz navidad, d_f
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Dec 19, 2008 6:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure I would weigh all those "classes" equally
But I generally agree with your evaluations.
by DarthYoshi on Dec 18, 2008 9:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I didn't weight all of those classes equally
Different credit hours.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Dec 18, 2008 9:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
sorry 'bout that
In my defense, I’m jet lagged and my brain has shut off for the semester
by DarthYoshi on Dec 19, 2008 11:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think what is going to be most critical to the success of this franchise
more than anything else is locking up the cornerstones of the franchise. Getting Greinke Gordon Butler Hochevar etc signed to extensions to keep our core here when Moose and Hosmer and the like come up is going to be huuuuuuuuuuge.
One last thing, I think you are a little harsh on the position player draft too. It looks like we have two surefire studs in two drafts. Giovatella and a couple others seem to have potential too. I think Hosmer and Moose give us at least a B. Id probably go B+.
Accidentally not thedude925 anymore. I do hate this new name.
by wildthang on Dec 18, 2008 9:01 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
The B+
would bump us to a reasonable 2.74
Accidentally not thedude925 anymore. I do hate this new name.
by wildthang on Dec 18, 2008 9:03 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I hope not
I think he is a keep at all costs guy.
Accidentally not thedude925 anymore. I do hate this new name.
by wildthang on Dec 18, 2008 9:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i'd love for him to be
but he might command a 80+ million dollar contract, although a lack of pitcher wins and stupid awards vote totals could deflate his value
by royalsreview on Dec 18, 2008 9:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
at least we know he won't be getting too many GWRBI
© philofthenorth
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Dec 18, 2008 9:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Grienke doesn't want to sign with us
Clear enough for everyone? And it has nothing to do with the Royals. He owes us his life right now.
Don't forget to send your broken maples to the US Forest Service.
by 306008 on Dec 18, 2008 10:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
None of us know if he's willing to sign an extension with the Royals this year
For the right money, I’m sure he’d do it. But we have no idea what he thinks is the right money. Certainly his public statements can’t be taken at face value because he’s been and to some extent still is negotiating. And when you are negotiating, you say publicly that which will help you in the negotiations.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Dec 18, 2008 11:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
"All costs" can be pretty big
For buying out free agency years, would you be willing for the Royals to pay him Sabathia money? The problem is that if you give him that kind of money, that’s pretty much it for significant spending over the course of his contract. And one starting pitcher can only win you so many games.
I think he’s a guy you should work hard to extend now, but if he isn’t willing to sign a reasonable extension because he wants to test the FA waters, then you trade him sometime between now and July 31, 2009 for as much as you possibly can.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Dec 18, 2008 9:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I find a problem
Boras
Founder of the Johnny Giavotella fan club.
by doublestix on Dec 18, 2008 11:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They can't all be Oscar Suarez
It takes 46 muscles to frown but only 4 to flip 'em the bird.
by kcscoliny on Dec 22, 2008 8:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Nice job
gotta think about some of this stuff some more before I comment further.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Dec 18, 2008 9:33 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
If you want your response to get an "A", it had better be in iambic pentameter
I have strict grading standards.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Dec 18, 2008 9:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I must comment again how insanely funny it is that the PBTNL in the LaRue trade was $1.
One Dollar. haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. how appropriate.
by Fernando Vina School of Linguistics on Dec 18, 2008 9:57 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Isn't that standard?
when they can’t agree on a PTBNL? I mean, yes, it’s very appropriate here, but I thought if they couldn’t agree on something or the player didn’t do anything, they just closed the deal with a buck. Am I wrong?
by AxDxMx on Dec 19, 2008 12:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Often when the teams can't agree on a PTBNL, it ends up being "cash consideration"
But it need not be a token $1. Justin Huber was traded for a PTBNL, which ended up being $50K.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Dec 19, 2008 12:27 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Randolph & Mortimer would be proud
Mr Glass, this is a pro sports team, not a retail store - run it like one!
by loyal2sdad on Dec 19, 2008 4:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
its amazing that he's signed so few position player FAs
like, stunningly so, even when you add in olivo
i don’t know if its just the way the roster has turned out or what, but its interesting
by royalsreview on Dec 18, 2008 9:57 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Part of it is that he spent all of two years working on the pitching
…with just a few forays into doing anything about position players. Recent trades have started moving his focus somewhat in the other direction.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Dec 18, 2008 10:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
interesting,
and, given the results of what signings he has made, more than a bit of a relief
Of course, Torii Hunter _toiotally) would have meant two more years. And only 4 years and $80M or whatever left!
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Dec 18, 2008 10:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
excellent post, thanks...
…for doing it. I think it’s a generally fair evaluation. one question, and maybe i just missed it, but i didn’t see the dotel signing and subsequent trade for davies mentioned. thanks again..
I hereby resign from this post.
by Home Run Tony Cogan on Dec 18, 2008 10:55 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, that was an oversight
I knew I was going to miss a few things, including:
Olivo signing for 2008 – an ok move
Olivo signing for 2009 – a poor move
Dotel FA signing – a pretty good move
Dotel-Davies trade – a pretty good trade
I think those pretty much reinforce the above grades.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Dec 18, 2008 10:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
a poor move
If you are gonna use comments like this one above
None of us know if he’s willing to sign an extension with the Royals this yearthen I think you need to stick to what you actually know and not use projections and your own opinion.
You can classify the Farnsworth signing as extremely over market value but I don’t know if the Olivo deal would be considered a poor move on that same scale probably just ok.
It takes 46 muscles to frown but only 4 to flip 'em the bird.
by kcscoliny on Dec 19, 2008 9:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There is a huge difference between projecting baseball performance and guessing whether a player is willing to sign a contract extension
In short, there is a lot more solid evidence to go on with regard to player performance than with regard to a player’s willingness to sign a contract extension. Given Olivo’s past performance and reasonable projections about his future performance, giving him $2.7M was a really bad idea. For instance, Chone projects Buck, House and Pena all to have better 2009 seasons than Olivo.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Dec 19, 2008 2:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's a guessing game
while you have some information that you need it is no different than projecting what Greinke will do. Chone’s catcher projections are somewhat of a joke for the Royals. I’m sure Chone didn’t project Olivo to have the sort of season he did last year and to have him below Buck is one thing but below House and Pena is a total farce. Who knows maybe Hillman sticks with the same split as last year with Buck and Olivo. If he does that there is no real reason to think Olivo couldn’t put up a repeat performance facing every lefty and half of the righties.
We have no reason to believe Greinke isn’t a man of his word so we can draw every reasonable opinion that he will play out until he is a free agent.
In the end you can tell people they can’t jump to conclusions when in reality projections are the same thing. Sometimes they are right or similar and sometime they are way off just like peoples opinions of what a player ,coach or gm will or won’t do.
It takes 46 muscles to frown but only 4 to flip 'em the bird.
by kcscoliny on Dec 19, 2008 3:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
while you have some information that you need it is no different than projecting what Greinke will do.
That is utter nonsense. Past performance has been proven to be very indicative of future performance (particularly when we’re predicting just one season into the future). Guessing what Greinke might do, what he’s interested in, where his priorities lie and what will happen with a possible extension involves largely unknown variables and, of course, there is no history with Greinke for us to use to make a good guess about it. Comparing the two as equal unknowns is ludicrous.
. Chone’s catcher projections are somewhat of a joke for the Royals.
Yeah right, because they don’t agree with your own particular odd opinions about how good Olivo is.
We have no reason to believe Greinke isn’t a man of his word so we can draw every reasonable opinion that he will play out until he is a free agent.
He didn’t “give his word” that he wasn’t going to sign a contract extension. He didn’t say that he won’t do it or consider it. He has made no promises. He has shown a willingness to go to free agency, which is what any intelligent player in his position would say, even if what he wanted most was to sign a long-term deal with the Royals.
In the end you can tell people they can’t jump to conclusions when in reality projections are the same thing.
You need to understand that not all predictions are of equal reliability. Predicting the performance of a player who has several seasons of MLB performance under his belt is much, much more reliable than predicting who will sign what kind of contract, or what tomorrow’s lottery numbers are going to be. Good projection systems have a track record of being pretty accurate. Have you seen how accurate PECOTA, ZiPS, and Chone have been? I know…you’re not interested. You’d rather just assume that it is all nearly random guesswork which is just as reliable as your own personal guesstimates. They aren’t.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Dec 19, 2008 3:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Guessing what Greinke might do, what he’s interested in, where his priorities lie and what will happen with a possible extension involves largely unknown variables and, of course, there is no history with Greinke for us to use to make a good guess about it. Comparing the two as equal unknowns is ludicrous.
The liklihood of getting Greinke’s decision 100% right is 50/50. The liklihood of getting Olivo’s statline completely right is probably less than 5%
Yeah right, because they don’t agree with your own particular odd opinions about how good Olivo is.
Really predicting Pena and House as having better seasons is a total joke. If these numbers were really all that accurate then why the hell is House not gonna be on the opening day 25. Because you know what those projections are. INNACCURATE.
What were the Olivo projections last year? How accurate were they? Not very.
The problem I have with you in here is you seem to get tossed a new idea every couple years and act like a few of the rest of us are idiots for not jumping on the bandwagon. Guillen’s projections last year were pretty damn accurate, the problems in the clubhouse were pretty predictable but now he sucks because defense all of a sudden is the new metric and it sucks. Really his defense all of a sudden sucks worse than before? Doubtful it sucked before and his injury and lack of range still suck. Use your own stats you should’ve been bitching before last season if you were so knowledgable because his projections were pretty much right inline. It shouldn’t have taken a new stat for you to develop your opinion of him. As for me I’ll take him because I think he actually has a value to this team as opposed to some fictional replacement player. Defense didnt suddenly become important it just took 20+ years to develop stats for it and they are still very inaccurate. There are so many factors to account for that you guys don’t want to admit. Hidden factors that are really there that could never be accurately calculated. I think the saber community is stretching its values. I think Teahen is better in rightfield than Guillen but by the numbers you guys come up with I don’t think so. Teahen doesn’t get to alot of balls that he should because they overplay his athleticism with lack of proper fielding position. Teahen wouldn’t have had 97 Rbi last year and with Runners onbase you probably could come up with a better stat involving slug because slug comes into play more when you are talking about driving someone in. But anyway thats neither here nor there.
You need to understand that not all predictions are of equal reliability. Predicting the performance of a player who has several seasons of MLB performance under his belt is much, much more reliable than predicting who will sign what kind of contract, or what tomorrow’s lottery numbers are going to be. Good projection systems have a track record of being pretty accurate. Have you seen how accurate PECOTA, ZiPS, and Chone have been?
Last year after the season did you go to fangraphs and compare the projections. They were predictably all over the board. Right on some and wrong on others. No one predicted DDJ’s, Aviles seasons. That’s what they will be this year will be. Why because it is not a science. They are taking a bit of stats and averaging and making assumptions. Olivos stats are probably based on his bad follow up seasons. He has a 700+ OPS then regresses back to a 640-670 and then back up the next year at least that is the pattern. That doesn’t mean it is right or even accurate he has only done this twice that is hardly a good enough sample. It’s not the GOSPEL and to predict House, Pena as better players off little track record in the majors is akin to fortune telling they have no statisitcal basis to make their argument other than minor league stats. Those same stats didn’t give them the Aviles conclusion last year.
I know…you’re not interested. You’d rather just assume that it is all nearly random guesswork which is just as reliable as your own personal guesstimates. They aren’t
All you know about me is what I choose to show you. All I know about you is that you think your fanhood is superior to pretty much everyone in here who isn’t in love with or hasn’t studied and/or believe sabermetrics. You act like a hall monitor everytime someone quotes an opinion of what a GM/player or coach will do yet you spew your innaccurate opinions constantly without refrain. If you wanna keep quotin your opinions then use some of your own advice. Otherwise if you disagree with their opinions tell them why but quit telling people what they do and don’t know because in the end all we know is that you don’t use your own advice. You spewed that Furcal was waitin on LA and you turned out to be right but you had no more knowledge of that than the above guy does about Greinke. For all we really knew Furcal could’ve been a freakin scientologist and he was waitin on Tom Cruise to say that Atlanta will not be invaded by Zoltron or whatever whacked out enemy of L Ron Hubbard is. Sorry if I offended any scientologist.
One other thing how did it take you guys 20+ fucking years to realize that defense counts for something. Really I can’t just put some GD statue in rightfield. I don’t think defense counts as much as you guys all of a sudden but for gods sakes but I sure didn’t think it was completely and utterly inconsequential.
It takes 46 muscles to frown but only 4 to flip 'em the bird.
by kcscoliny on Dec 19, 2008 5:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The liklihood of getting Greinke’s decision 100% right is 50/50. The liklihood of getting Olivo’s statline completely right is probably less than 5%.
That’s a false comparison. Determining the likelihood of Greinke signing a contract extension, vs. the likelihood of Olivo hitting a particular level is very different. The latter can be done much more reliably than the former.
What were the Olivo projections last year? How accurate were they? Not very.
Pointing to a projection for one player that was spot on or way off is an awful way to evaluate the accuracy of a projection system. We should, of course, look at how accurate they have been overall.
The problem I have with you in here is you seem to get tossed a new idea every couple years and act like a few of the rest of us are idiots for not jumping on the bandwagon.
What, like looking at OPS or the most accurate projection systems? Please. Those are pretty basic, fundamental things. And I do like to keep up to date on the best in new statistical analysis. That provides for better analysis than by going by the state of the art for 1975.
Guillen’s projections last year were pretty damn accurate
No, actually they weren’t. I don’t know why you’d throw this line out there without actually having any idea what his projections were. Clearly you don’t know what they were or you wouldn’t have said something so demonstrably false. Averaging Guillen’s projections for 2008 from PECOTA, ZiPS, Bill James, Chone and Marcel, you get a stat line of .275/.336/.449. His actual stat line was .264/.300/.438. Being off by .47 points of OPS including .36 points of the much more important OBP is not being “pretty damn accurate.” Sometimes projections are off. And Guillen significantly underperformed his projection. It happens.
Really his defense all of a sudden sucks worse than before? Doubtful it sucked before and his injury and lack of range still suck. Use your own stats you should’ve been bitching before last season if you were so knowledgable because his projections were pretty much right inline. It shouldn’t have taken a new stat for you to develop your opinion of him.
I underestimated his offensive and defensive decline. I underestimated how greatly his defensive shortcomings would cut into his offensive value. And yes, the development of better defensive metrics and the run valuation of defense has indeed aid my valuation of defensive performance (as it has many who have actually bothered to learn about it).
There are so many factors to account for that you guys don’t want to admit. Hidden factors that are really there that could never be accurately calculated. I think the saber community is stretching its values. I think Teahen is better in rightfield than Guillen but by the numbers you guys come up with I don’t think so.
Translation: “I don’t know much about advanced defensive metrics, but I’m going to assume they really suck. And I’d rather just use my own subjective amateur scouting opinion to figure out how good various players are defensively. That’s much better than any stat.” Willful ignorance, table for one.
Why because it is not a science. They are taking a bit of stats and averaging and making assumptions. Olivos stats are probably based on his bad follow up seasons.
This is what is so frustrating about you. This shows that you have absolutely no idea how these projections are put together. They don’t just average a player’s career stats and just “make some assumptiions.” There’s much more that goes into it than that. It involves empirical data on development and decline curves, including a recognition of how this differs for different kinds of players at different positions with different body types and much more. But yet you dismiss all projection systems because that’s much more easy and fun than actually learning about them and evaluating them fairly based on actual knowledge about them.
Those same stats didn’t give them the Aviles conclusion last year.
So exceptional occurrences prove that project systems aren’t worth much? That is amazingly awful illogic. What happened with Aviles was, by definition, exceptional. It was very much an exception. One shouldn’t expect that kind of out-of-nowhere to happen very often in the past. But of course it can happen. It’s very unlikely but exceptional occurrences will happen sometimes. And sometimes players will have flukey great or awful years. And some players will have very abnormal development/decline curves. That happens. But not all possibilities are equally likely. And the projection systems show what is most likely, and that has value.
All I know about you is that you think your fanhood is superior to pretty much everyone in here who isn’t in love with or hasn’t studied and/or believe sabermetrics.
No, I think my baseball analysis is superior to yours, and not because I think I’m more intelligent. It’s because I have opened my mind enough to read and learn more and better ways to analyze baseball. There was a time when I looked almost exclusively at old school stats and turned my back on defensive metrics. But thankfully I looked into new things and added them to my analytical arsenal. That improved my baseball knowledge and my baseball analysis. Willfully, intentionally closing one’s self from a great body analytical tools is really going to limit your analysis.
One other thing how did it take you guys 20+ fucking years to realize that defense counts for something. Really I can’t just put some GD statue in rightfield. I don’t think defense counts as much as you guys all of a sudden but for gods sakes but I sure didn’t think it was completely and utterly inconsequential.
Did anyone think it was inconsequential? Of course not. What the field of sabermetrics is developing with increasing accuracy is exactly how consequential defense is and the degree to which it affects runs allowed.
(BTW, sometimes this is the point in a debate where you get so pissed off at me that you start calling me an asshole or a douche or something like that. Don’t do that this time. If you feel the need to do that, do it in an e-mail. My e-mail address is in my profile. You can call me whatever you like. But let’s always refrain from doing that on this site. I know you didn’t do that in the post above. I just want to hopefully prevent that from happening again.)
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Dec 19, 2008 6:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Projections
Those average projections are as close as they are gonna get with most players because they can’t factor in the unknown. They don’t know how or if Guillen will get hurt. They don’t know if Olivo will play as a DH or how much Hillman will play him. Especially 4 months before a season. Just because they are in the ballpark doesn’t mean they are right. Factor in whatever decline curve you want or any other 1000 number of possiblilites they come up with a basic range. That doesn’t make them accurate. You could tell me your family history your parents weights, ethnicity excercise level , etc and I could make a reasonable guess about what weight you are that doesn’t make it correct as you like to think. A educated GUESS.
Taking in what we think we know about Greinke, his words his background is the same thing. AN EDUCATED GUESS is somewhat logical. I assume most people have done these things when forming their opinion maybe I’m jumping the shark (who came up with that phrase) but I assume they are somewhat logical to come to.
No, I think my baseball analysis is superior to yours, and not because I think I’m more intelligent. It’s because I have opened my mind enough to read and learn more and better ways to analyze baseball. There was a time when I looked almost exclusively at old school stats and turned my back on defensive metrics. But thankfully I looked into new things and added them to my analytical arsenal. That improved my baseball knowledge and my baseball analysis. Willfully, intentionally closing one’s self from a great body analytical tools is really going to limit your analysis.
Most the stuff I have said seems to workout for me maybe that is a nice run of luck or maybe I have a little knowledge. Callaspo has below average speed, power. Aviles can play SS he has a quick twitch and his bat will play. Lumsden is a hack who should be sent away. I even had a dream team with Mike Jacobs on it.
I won’t call you a name not because I feel the need to restrain myself or deem it inappropriate. I don’t need to right now but there is no denying that you feel superior to quite a few other people in here besides me as been proven by many countless of other opinions in the past. I feel you are the one person in here that deserves a namecalling pretty much at all times just due to your heir of superiority and arrogance.
At this point last year you would’ve argued up and down til the cows came home that Tony Pena Jr is a better overall ballplayer than Mike Aviles. You could’ve counted stats and recounted and drawn up your conclusion. And in your mind that IS the only answer your mind is closed. It takes a scout amateur or pro with an open mind (The Key factor) about 10 minutes of watching to realize how untrue that is. You talk about having an open mind that is completely false you are very closed minded with anything that has to do with stats because you won’t watch the game and truly analyze it.
You and I will never agree on most things no matter how much I study sabermetrics and yes I am doing more and more of that everyday even reluctantly by own admission. In the end I value my own opinion much higher than I do yours because you aren’t spewing your opinion you are spewing other peoples stats. When you form your own opinion then we can have a logical discussion about it. Until then
It takes 46 muscles to frown but only 4 to flip 'em the bird.
by kcscoliny on Dec 19, 2008 6:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That doesn’t make them accurate.
No, their track record makes them accurate. And I don’t mean accurate as in, “if PECOTA says Player X is going to have a .330 OBP, then he’ll definitely have a .330 OBP.” It means that those projections have been quite accurate overall and represent a likely outcome for the coming season. And it is much better than estimations you, I or any other fan could put together on our own.
Taking in what we think we know about Greinke, his words his background is the same thing. AN EDUCATED GUESS is somewhat logical.
Again, we have much better and much more reliable data on player performance than we do on Greinke’s innermost thoughts, feelings, preferences and plans.
In the end I value my own opinion much higher than I do yours because you aren’t spewing your opinion you are spewing other peoples stats.
Stats are just information and tools. Your amateur scouting opinion of a player is just information and tools. We use this information and these analytical tools to inform our opinions. Is it not my opinion because that opinion is informed by a player’s OBP, SLG, wOBA, UZR, etc? Is it not my opinion because those are “other peoples stats?” If I calculate a player’s wOBA on my own, would that count? Or would I need to invent the stat myself? If so, then I can’t use any existing stats. I hope you can see how amazingly foolish you comment was. But keep up the great work on scouting Omaha Royals. I’m sure you’ll have more diamonds in the rough for us in May. I predict Gookie Dawkins will be your next crush.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Dec 19, 2008 7:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Their projections are as accurate as the old guy
who has been guessing peoples weight at the local amusement park for years. They get better with practise.
As long as you keep tossing out gems like Buck’s footwork isn’t slowing, Callaspo/German are better options at SS than Aviles.
My breakout guy and I predicted this earlier this year is Mike Stodolka. He will never have great power but he makes solid contact and has a good eye. With his athleticism he could develop into a decent 4th OF option on the corners of the outfield. I might be wrong but if a combination or one of either Teahen/Crisp get off to slow start Stodolka is my pick for who people will be clammering for.
This is a total guess Bianchi or Johnny G. will push for play by August-September.
It takes 46 muscles to frown but only 4 to flip 'em the bird.
by kcscoliny on Dec 19, 2008 9:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This is a great example of amateur scouting by a fan
As long as you keep tossing out gems like Buck’s footwork isn’t slowing
Did you do a lot of comparison of video footage of Buck’s footwork behind the plate in 2007 vs. 2008? Or did you just jump to that weak conclusion based general impressions of him and the fact that he threw out fewer runners in 2008? I know you watch the games, so you’ve seen him play. But I don’t think for a second that you were closely analyzing his footwork. But even if you were, you had little basis of comparison to prior years, unless you want us to believe you have a solid memory of his footwork from year to year. These are the problems with amateur scouting from fans: you’re not a talented, experienced scout; you’re just a fan who is familiar with baseball skills. You’re not scouting when you watch games; you’re just watching games, from which you get some general impressions. And yet you think this is meaningful evaluation. And yet I’m the arrogant one? Ok, I’m arrogant too, but at least my arrogance comes from opinions based on real information, not the hubris of thinking that I’m such a talented tools evaluator that my opinions are more meaningful than advanced stats and the best projection systems. You know, even major league baseball organizations don’t hang their hat on the opinion of any one scout. Scouts are double checked by other scouts, cross checkers and other front office staff, because no single subjective opinion about a player is worth all that much. But hey, you’re single subjective amateur scouting opinion is unassailable.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Dec 19, 2008 10:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Nice Work
Appreciate the time you’ve put in on this. The fun of this site is analyzing posts like this even if it may be a bit premature. I agree with the overall grade. DMGM so far seems like a toolsy prospect with a high upside(Meche signing, Soria pickup) countered with a high error rate(Guillen signing and the continuance of Baird’s overpaying for mediocrity.Gload, Jacobs, Farnsworth). Save the money for Greinke or a single big FA rather than chucking it all over the place.
by hunter s. royal on Dec 18, 2008 11:47 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Grudz a mistake?
You seriously think German could play there? He is pretty bad on defense. Jason Smith could have if you wanted to see a TPJ batting average with HR power. Callaspo is just a recent addition that was not part of the team for significant time last year (alcohol). I’d say Grudz at 2nd kept us from being even worse. He was the veteran leadership.
And I never would have guessed you originally liked the JoGui signing. 3/$36 looked pretty bad when we were the only bidder.
by AxDxMx on Dec 19, 2008 12:24 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
You seriously think German could play there? He is pretty bad on defense.
Yeah, he’s pretty bad defensively, and Grudz got pretty mediocre defensively. Overall, Grudz was better than German, but not $4-5M better. It would have made more sense to not re-sign Grudz and go with German in 2007, and then spend that money on an area of genuine need.
Callaspo is just a recent addition that was not part of the team for significant time last year (alcohol).
Callaspo’s addition meant that the Royals didn’t need Grudz. But the Royals didn’t have Callaspo when they re-signed Grudz yet again for the 2008 season. But they did know they had German. They should have dumped Grudz and planned to go with German, with a willingness to make a good trade for the position (which they ended up doing).
And I never would have guessed you originally liked the JoGui signing. 3/$36 looked pretty bad when we were the only bidder.
I liked that we signed him; I didn’t like the money. Even at the time, it looked like we overpaid and could have gotten him for less. I thought 3/27 or 3/30 would have been doable and a good enough contract. But I know now that those contracts for Guillen would have been bad too, just by a smaller degree.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Dec 19, 2008 12:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
To be fair
I liked the name too, but I couldn’t believe the money.
And while I agree that maybe German should have been given a chance to play everyday, even a mediocre Grudz is twice as good as German. You’re right though, probably not $4-5M better.
by AxDxMx on Dec 19, 2008 11:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yo
Kinda strong to call Nunez for Jacobs a clear screw up IMO. I understand that this site has completely backed that, and I’m not saying that Jacobs will be awesome or anything, but Jacobs for a run-of-the-mill, oft injured reliever can’t be viewed so harshly. I realize there’s a logjam at 1B. However, I don’t see Shealy as the future, Kila should clearly be in AAA next year, and BB can split 1B and DH with Jacobs. Our defense was gonna suck at 1B anyways. At least now we have a plattoon instead of BB and Shealy whiffing against RHPs all the time. Granted, at the time of the trade, Moore’s specialty appeared to be building cheap bullpens, and after 2X9.5, that’s not so apparent now, which I suppose makes the trade slightly worse. But Nunez has been inconsistent, so I don’t think we did so poorly. I’m not saying this was a great trade at all, but it’s a little early to call it a clear screw up since we didn’t lose much, and there is some to gain.
by RoyalFlush on Dec 19, 2008 3:29 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
I understand that this site has completely backed that, and I’m not saying that Jacobs will be awesome or anything, but Jacobs for a run-of-the-mill, oft injured reliever can’t be viewed so harshly.
It was a fair trade from a talent-for-talent standpoint, but there’s a lot more to it than that. Here’s why I think the trade was a bad one for the Royals:
- Jacobs isn’t even an average hitter for a first baseman. A low .300’s OBP and a high .400’s SLG makes for a clearly below average hitting first baseman.
- Jacobs is one of the worst defensive first basemen in baseball. Add up the offense and the defense and you have a pretty low value major league regular.
- He’s going to get paid about $3.5M, while Nunez was going to get league minimum.
- There is a significant opportunity cost here. This was Moore’s short-term solution for 1B, which pushes out other solutions, both in-house and from the FA market. He could have had Russ Branyan for considerably less money and without giving up talent. There were other options too.
- This could possibly push out Shealy, or keep Kila from getting a major league opportunity at any point before September call-ups. And it might lead Hillman to decrease Butler’s playing time. I don’t know if it will happen, but there’s a risk that Teahen plays a lot of 1B, while Jacobs and Butler platoon at DH.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Dec 19, 2008 4:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You keep forgetting Sietzer!!! .350 opb, .550 slugging!!!!11111!!!!
Go Royals!
by BabyBlues on Dec 19, 2008 4:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And if Seitzer can do that
Imagine what he could do with Ka’aihue or Butler or Shealy or TPJ!!! Why did we even get Jacobs when all we needed was SEITZER1!
by AxDxMx on Dec 19, 2008 11:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Seitzer working with Ka'aihue would result in a
1.000 OBP. Kila would officially break baseball.
WTF, self?
by minda33 on Dec 19, 2008 12:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
screw perfect games
We’ll go for the perfect season.
You heard it here on RR first!
Trey Hillman will ask Kaaihue on the last day of the season as the Royals are 123-31 if he wants to rest and protect his impeccable record. Kaaihue will say hell no and go 2-2 with 3 walks and a massive drive off the royal crown.
Accidentally not thedude925 anymore. I do hate this new name.
by wildthang on Dec 19, 2008 7:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, I need a new job
Do you think Seitzer could make me into a major leaguer??!!!! Please? Minimum salary will be fine for now.
I may not be much, but I've got great intangibles.
by kabrink on Dec 19, 2008 7:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Some extra credit for Moore
With the exception of middle infield depth, Dayton has spent quite a bit of effort to restock Omaha for next year . If we do happen to contend next year, that could be the difference in winning the division.
Go Royals!
by BabyBlues on Dec 19, 2008 4:14 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
2.35 GPA
That’s good, right?
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Dec 19, 2008 11:07 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
For a drunk all the time frat boy
2 is a C, 3 is a B, 4 is an A. So Dayton is hovering in the C+ range.
by AxDxMx on Dec 19, 2008 12:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Or presidencies!
Did Obama ever release his grades?
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Dec 19, 2008 2:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He was president of Harvard Law review. I am sure they weren't C's.
by c_town6128 on Dec 19, 2008 3:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What was that I said about a drunk all the time frat boy?
Well replace drunk with coked out of his freakin mind.
by AxDxMx on Dec 21, 2008 1:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hey dudes, let's talk some ball.

I may not be much, but I've got great intangibles.
by kabrink on Dec 21, 2008 6:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
As I posted before
GMDM will not sign autographs…. and for me that has to drop him at least .25 over all. Other than that I think this is a great write up and is anything ever too pre mature to blog on?? I think over all I would have had him at about a 2.5 but of course if you factor in my -.25 we are pretty close!
by true_blue on Dec 20, 2008 1:58 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Premature
In a way, this evaluation could be seen as being premature. It is certainly premature to be giving Moore a final grade. But this isn’t a final grade. That won’t happen until his tenure ends. It’s a progress report, not the final word on how good Moore is. The above evaluation and grade reflects what he’s done so far. If does a lot of really good things or really bad things in the future, the grade will go up or down.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Dec 20, 2008 12:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just like grades in school.
It’s a fine post, and honestly if it was done every quarter he’d get a different GPA every time (just like me in school…hmmm).
WTF, self?
by minda33 on Dec 20, 2008 2:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd hate to put together a report card for Moore the current quarter
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Dec 20, 2008 3:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
sometimes our extracurricular activities get the best of us
sometimes you just can’t say no
Accidentally not thedude925 anymore. I do hate this new name.
by wildthang on Dec 20, 2008 4:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
F+
I really don’t like anything he’s done this quarter. He’s just made everything more muddled, except for Teahen, who is now a backup in the Ross Gload mold.
by AxDxMx on Dec 21, 2008 1:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Some of the moves have been ok
I’d probably give him a D for the offseason.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Dec 21, 2008 2:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Nice assessment.
The situation is not all doom and gloom, but at the same time C+ won’t cut it in small market land.
by RATW on Dec 20, 2008 1:53 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
good point
Accidentally not thedude925 anymore. I do hate this new name.
by wildthang on Dec 20, 2008 4:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
A Great Article Save for one Glaring Mistake
To say that Nunez for Jacobs was a mistake before he has even put on a Royals Uniform is just wrong. You cannot characterize it as a mistake until you have seen his performance. In fact, if he hits 30HRs for us and the bullpen’s performance is comparable to last years I would say this will actually go down as a good trade for Dayton. Again, all too early to tell. Otherwise a great article!
by RoyalFanDan on Dec 21, 2008 7:47 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
You can evaluate any move at any time
Just like with this evaluation of Moore, you can evaluate a trade at any time, but it is not a final evaluation. When we see how Jacobs actually performs, we’ll have much more very important data to evaluate the trade. But right now, we have quite a bit of data to make a preliminary evaluation. We have their stats and projections. And it doesn’t look good. If Jacobs surprises us, the evaluation will change.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Dec 21, 2008 9:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting analysis but you missed the big picture
I enjoyed reading your analysis of Dayton Moore’s transaction moves on a micro-level basis. However this analysis misses a big point which is projected win/loss and past win/loss. To give DM a C+ or GPA of 2.35 really misses the big picture. The Royals have improved systematically over the past 2+ years with DM in-charge. The win totals have improved from 62 to 71 to 75. I think a more complete analysis would be the projected win total for 2009 season. Looking at what DM has done, he has steadily created an improved and competitive team with depth for 2009. The Royals will probably not compete for the AL Central division title in ‘09 but will probably have 80 to 84 wins which is really good. Royals should be able to compete for the division title in 2010 or 2011. It is common knowledge that KC’s talent in the lower minor league levels are as strong as any team in the league. Personally I give DM an A for what he done is the past 2+ years. He has built a great front office staff, hired a solid manager in Hillman, he has built a minor farm system, he has added and traded for players who will make the Royals competitive for the LT, he has built the Royals within the allotted budget, and he has gotten the KC community interested in the Royals again.
by Rogue Buddhist on Dec 21, 2008 10:06 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
The win totals have improved from 62 to 71 to 75.
I think that’s well within what one would expect from a C+ performance.
I think a more complete analysis would be the projected win total for 2009 season.
This wasn’t about prediction or projection. It was an analysis and evaluation of all Moore has done to date.
The Royals will probably not compete for the AL Central division title in ‘09 but will probably have 80 to 84 wins which is really good.
I think 80-81 wins is likely, barring major injury to a key player. And while that is good progress, it represents only an ascent to mediocrity. And does this group look like it has the talent to make the next jump (the biggest and hardest jump) from mediocrity to actual contention? Quite frankly, I don’t see that upside potential. And that’s a key reason he deserves no more than C+. His moves in the upper minors and major league level have been, for the most part, the kinds of things that help insure that the team gets to around .500, but makes it very difficult for them to go much beyond that. Filling all of the team’s holes with overpriced mediocrities helps to make sure that the team is good enough overall to get to about the 80-win threshold, but doesn’t provide enough impact talent to get the team over the top. My read of Dayton Moore’s major league strategy has been to work hard to get the Royals to .500 as quickly as possible. This is not, however, how you build a playoff team.
He has built a great front office staff,
No, I don’t think he has. The front office staff has been very good at identifying and evaluating pitching talent, for the most part. They have been exceedingly poor at identifying and evaluating the talent of position players. And they have been poor at appropriately valuing the market price of players which has led to overpaying which, of course. limits what the team can do both now and in the future.
hired a solid manager in Hillman
At best, I think he hired an average manager in Hillman. Moore could have taken the speculative short list that any sports writer could have come up with for any managerial vacancy and hired someone just as mediocre, common and run-of-the-mill as Hillman.
he has built a minor farm system
He has built up the pitching in the minors extremely well. And he has done almost nothing with regard to the improving the hitting in the minors (with the exception of the two first round draft picks).
he has added and traded for players who will make the Royals competitive for the LT,
Very few, actually. And very little that should help in the long-term in a significant way. Callaspo, for instance, could help for the long-term, but likely in a lesser role. Even if he pans out to be a full-time second baseman, he’s not likely to be an impact player, just a useful piece.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Dec 21, 2008 10:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not too many MLB teams had jump like TB this year from 66 to 97 wins. If you look at the Twins who are very consistent, this is their W-L total since ‘94 and when Terry Ryan started as GM:53 (strike), 56, 78, 68, 70, 63, 69, 85, 94, 90, 92, 83, 96, 79, and 88. It took Terry Ryan 8 years before the Twins started winning consistently. And Terry was one of the better GM’s. His predecessor was Andy McPhail and the Twins were 2 yrs. removed from a WS title. DM inherited the mess of Allard and if you look at his moves of removing a lot of not so great players from Baird’s regime to just name a few like Elarton, Burgos, Sisco, Affeldt, and their considering who has replaced those guys with, it’s good.
With their front office, I think he has done a great job. Running a team like any organization, you can’t just slash and burn and turnover everyone. It has to be done with reason and with strategy. He replaced and removed many incompetent leaders like Buddy Bell, Muzzy Jackson, and Deric Ladnier. His current team of Mike Arbuckle, JJ Picollo, Dean Taylor, Rene Francisco, and Donnie Williams are a strong group as any. Much better than Muzzy and Deric.
Before this 2008 hot stove, Meche has added Meche, Soria, Bannister, Pena, and guys that are improvements over what we originally had. Do you think you can just easily sign or trade a top level SS? Is it that easy with a limited budget to get power hitter that hits for average and has a good OBP? It’s not an overnight thing to quickly add inexpensive top talent.
Hillman, I believe, is a solid manager. For a rookie manager, he held his ground. He made his mistakes, but he is a decent strategists, a good people person, and he accepts change and knows his weakness. After all, Royals brought in Gibbons this off-season.
Under Dayton in the minors they have added significant catching depth (Sean McCauley, Jose Bonilla, Salvador Perez, and Travis Jones). He has added SS depth (Mario Lisson (protect on 40man), Beltre, Alfaro, Espinal). We have a some interesting OF (Lough, Robinson, Orlando, Richardson, Ortiz).
KC overpaying free agents is something we had to do. Players just won’t go to KC and a perennially without some type of incentive usually financial and security reason.
Your analysis is interesting but flawed. It puts a high premium on stats, missing other stuff we aren’t privy to and hard to quantify like overall team chemistry, intangibles like leadership. For instance I have always believed the Meche signing was great. He anchors the rotation, he’s consistent, he’s a leader, and he sets the tone. Greinke, although very good, is not a staff ace yet. And it’s hard to quantify Meche’s intangibles simply in stats. Dayton has done a great job managing and creating an atmosphere which is conducive to winning. It takes a bit of time. All great things take time and not done instantly. Your assumptions often IMHO are in a vacuum where a lot of external factors are not considered.
Living in KC has a Latin or black player is not exactly the most interesting place to be. The Glass family also has not had the best reputation either. So, if you consider all that Dayton has done, I think he has done a fantastic job. As a Royals fan, I haven’t been excited at all during the Herk Robinson and Allard Baird years. Those were the dark ages. Since Dayton has been on board, I follow and can understand his strategy on doing things. I may not agree with all of his moves, but I think he is moving in the right direction with the goal of competing for division titles in 2010. A complete overall and rebuilding job in about 4 years is really good.
by Rogue Buddhist on Dec 21, 2008 12:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Do you think you can just easily sign or trade a top level SS?
Of course not. And Moore gets credit for the improvements he’s made, along with the mistakes. I’m not expecting stars at every position. But Pena’s acquisition was a clear failure.
Is it that easy with a limited budget to get power hitter that hits for average and has a good OBP?
Your point is so obvious as to be irrelevant. Of course that is true and no one is arguing that Moore has done a poor job because he hasn’t loaded up the Royays with .300/.400/500 players. But a good GM recognizes that if you have a limited budget, you don’t waste talent and millions on low-OBP, moderate power players like Guillen and Jacobs. A good GM recognizes the relative value of OBP and SLG at every spot in the lineup and goes for someone with more OBP and less power. There were cheaper, better options than Guillen and Jacobs, and Moore didn’t avail himself of them.
Under Dayton in the minors they have added significant catching depth (Sean McCauley, Jose Bonilla, Salvador Perez, and Travis Jones). He has added SS depth (Mario Lisson (protect on 40man), Beltre, Alfaro, Espinal). We have a some interesting OF (Lough, Robinson, Orlando, Richardson, Ortiz).
He has added essentially mediocre prospect depth. Those are ok, but unimpressive catching, SS and OF prospects…and the vast majority of prospect analysts back me up on that. Moore has done little to rebuild the position player side of the minor league system and what he’s done, he hasn’t done particularly well. Take out Hosmer and Moustakas and you’ve got very few significant additions.
KC overpaying free agents is something we had to do. Players just won’t go to KC and a perennially without some type of incentive usually financial and security reason.
Those two sentences paper over some big mistakes. Yes I realize the Royals have to pay more to get FA’s. So that can help explain why the Royals probably overpaid some for Mahay. That’s fine. But this doesn’t explain away huge mistakes like the Guillen and Farnsworth signings. That wasn’t Moore identifying good players and having to overbid others to get the players. That was Moore failing to recognize that a player wasn’t good, and then freakishly overpaying for the players’ services even though he didn’t appear to be bidding against anyone. Those kind of signings don’t help; they hurt. They take up scarce resources on poor players and make it harder for the Royals to sign genuinely good players down the line.
Your analysis is interesting but flawed. It puts a high premium on stats, missing other stuff we aren’t privy to and hard to quantify like overall team chemistry, intangibles like leadership.
Ok, tell me how Moore has improved team chemistry and intangibles like leadership.
For instance I have always believed the Meche signing was great. He anchors the rotation, he’s consistent, he’s a leader, and he sets the tone. Greinke, although very good, is not a staff ace yet. And it’s hard to quantify Meche’s intangibles simply in stats. Dayton has done a great job managing and creating an atmosphere which is conducive to winning. It takes a bit of time. All great things take time and not done instantly. Your assumptions often IMHO are in a vacuum where a lot of external factors are not considered.
Ok, that certainly didn’t tell me how Moore has improved team chemistry or leadership. I love the Meche signing. If you want to claim that in addition to the very impressive stats that he’s also a team leader, I don’t see the leadership evidence, but ok. It was a great signing. I don’t see any evidence that Moore has created a team with good chemistry or an atmosphere more conducive to winning, or that he’s brought in good team leaders. I don’t value those intangibles as much as you do, but let’s look at the evidence we have that area. Moore brought in Guillen who is, by all accounts an asshole. Do you think he helps with team chemistry? Moore brought in and then re-signed Miguel Olivo who has frequently complained about his playing time. That’s selfish, bullshit behavior, not leadership or an atmosphere conducive to winning. Moore brought in Callaspo whose personal issues led to a DUI and a rehab stint. I can’t say I love those intangibles. So where is the great chemistry and leadership?
A complete overall and rebuilding job in about 4 years is really good.
Does it look to you like Dayton Moore is well on track to a complete overhaul and rebuilding job in 4 years? In the minors, the position player cupboard is still nearly bare (there are the same number of genuinely good position player prospects in the minors now as when Moore took the helm), and Moore has shown absolutely no talent in being able to identify and acquire good position player talent. None. So why do you think that after 4 years he’ll have completed the job?
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Dec 21, 2008 6:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Rogue
I agree with a lot of your points. NYRoyal, you opine that DM has done moves to get us to .500 as soon as possible. I understand your point that this isn’t good enough, if it harms further progress. I agree with this point if that were the case. However, I don’t agree that DM is intending to be satisfied with JUST that. I do believe he is trying to build a more true and stable organization – not an accidental one off like 03.
I think there is a lot to be gained by being a “mediocre .500 team” as you state, in the short term. The Royals have a lot of community healing to do. They need to prove they can field a .500 team, which is MUCH more competitive than they’ve fielded in many years. If the Royals are “competing” in the mid to upper half of the division for a couple of years, I think this will pay a lot of benefits in terms of attendance and therefore money. This kind of support will give Glass some more motivation to continue to increase spending for the next step.
I may not be much, but I've got great intangibles.
by kabrink on Dec 21, 2008 3:06 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I agree with this point if that were the case. However, I don’t agree that DM is intending to be satisfied with JUST that.
I don’t think he’s satisfied with .500, nor do I think that is his ultimate goal. I just think the particular strategies he has been employing are those which are effective in getting to .500 in the short-term but not effective in getting into the playoffs in the medium-term. And the improvements he’s made in the minor league system shouldn’t bear fruit until the significant long-term.
The Royals have a lot of community healing to do. They need to prove they can field a .500 team, which is MUCH more competitive than they’ve fielded in many years.
It certainly has value, but when you acquire players like Farnsworth — who is going to hurt payroll flexibility to sign genuinely good players in 2010 — and Crisp and Jacobs — who if kept around will do the same because they’ll get considerably more expensive in 2010, you’re following a “mediocre now” strategy (like a win-now strategy, but less effective). And this is a mediocre-now strategy which will actually make it harder for the Royals to contend in 2010. In short, Moore could acquired pieces who might not help as much in 2009, but who had upside to help considerably more in 2010-2012, when the Royals might actually have the opportunity to contend.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Dec 21, 2008 5:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This,
NY said:
"But this doesn’t explain away huge mistakes like the Guillen and Farnsworth signings. That wasn’t Moore identifying good players and having to overbid others to get the players. That was Moore failing to recognize that a player wasn’t good, and then freakishly overpaying for the players’ services even though he didn’t appear to be bidding against anyone. "
This, I agree with for sure. I don’t understand how we never heard anything about ANY other teams having interest in these players. By all economic theory, this should drive their price down. Duh. It seems that DM 1)is afraid to do the “walk away” tactic – you know, call their bluff and 2)he becomes focused and gets blinders for one guy and no longer sees the other options. Of course, this is all pure speculation. At any rate, he doesn’t seem to be a good bargainer. Perhaps he can hire someone to step in and do this piece for him.
Obviously, I don’t know how to do the fancy blue and yellow boxes.
I may not be much, but I've got great intangibles.
by kabrink on Dec 21, 2008 6:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Blue boxes
If you want to do that, just select the text you want in a box and then click the little quotes symbol just above where you’re typing the comment. It’s beside the bold, italics and other symbols.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Dec 22, 2008 8:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Arbuckle Article
Sounds like the staff Dayton is putting together is slowly getting better and better. Link
It takes 46 muscles to frown but only 4 to flip 'em the bird.
by kcscoliny on Dec 22, 2008 11:30 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, the article really makes it sound
like having Arbuckle is a really really really good sign. Also, try saying “Arbuckle Article” ten times fast.
WTF, self?
by minda33 on Dec 22, 2008 3:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm convinced
if they somehow convinced the skeptical minds at the Star that the Royals were on the right track, then it must be a good move
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary since sometime in 2008.
by devil_fingers on Dec 23, 2008 1:11 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Probably could be a different topic
but at what numbers does GMDM start negotiating a longterm deal with either AGordon or BamBam.
If one or both have a 25+ Hr .280-300/.350-375/.450-500. I know BamBams defense and even AGordon decline last year could present problems but do you take the risk if one of them or both put up .850+ OPS or do you wait longer?
Gordon is represented by Casey Close who did a longterm deal with Cuduyer/Twins while BamBam is rep’d by Doug Rogalsky.
It takes 46 muscles to frown but only 4 to flip 'em the bird.
by kcscoliny on Dec 22, 2008 9:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I think he should be negotiating with both of them
Gordon is at least average for his position right now. A decent long-term contract is pretty low-risk for the Royals. And Butler is likely worthy of the kind of long-term deal that a player with his service time could get. When you’re talking about low service time guys like Gordon and Butler, the risk isn’t huge. The worst case scenario is a Berroa-like contract and a Berroa-like implosion. While that kind of implosion is possible for any young player, it doesn’t hurt the team or its payroll too much. Berroa’s contract really didn’t keep the Royals from signing anyone. I’m sure it limited payroll flexibility a little, but only a little. That’s a risk that is smart to take with very talented players, particularly when their projections (by every good projection system) look good for the next several years.
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by NYRoyal on Dec 22, 2008 11:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
better to sign Gordon, especially now, while you might be able to get him cheap and buy out a couple years of FA. At worse, your stuck with a slightly-below league average player at cheap pre-arb prices.
On the other hand, if he “breaks out” next year and DMGM waits until after the season, Gordon’s closer to FA with less incentive to “lock things down.” That’s going to cost a whole lot more money.
Just like with FAs, it’s better to pay a guy before the big season than right after.
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary since sometime in 2008.
by devil_fingers on Dec 23, 2008 1:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

















