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Tex signing leads Brewers owner to suggest a salary cap

Perhaps the Yankees monopoly of elite FA signings this offseason is going to have a good side effect. At least one owner is talking about economic disparity and that a salary cap might be in order.

Milwaukee Brewers owner Mark Attanasio said Major League Baseball may need to impose a salary cap to preserve competition after the New York Yankees spent $424 million to sign three players.

"At the rate the Yankees are going, I’m not sure anyone can compete with them," Attanasio said in an e-mail. "Frankly, the sport might need a salary cap."

..."Obviously, the 34 percent they kick into the revenue- sharing pool and the luxury taxes don’t affect them one whit," he said.

..."They are on a completely different economic playing field," Attanasio said in a telephone interview. "I paid $220 million for my team; now they get three players for $420 million."

"At some point it gets to be absurd when a team has a $200 million payroll," he said, adding that the Brewers won’t raise their $81 million payroll because of the recession."

Yeah, at some point it does get absurd. And that point was about eight years ago. At least someone visible is talking about it again. I don't think a salary cap will happen, but perhaps this will spur them on to improve revenue sharing.

Link 6 months ago Nyroyal3a_tiny NYRoyal Comment 71 comments 0 recs |

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On the other hand...

The very large, inherent inequalities in MLB are not caused by owners building stadiums with public funding. Actually, that’s the only thing that is somewhat equal about MLB: every team builds stadiums with public funding…including the New York Yankees. And by the way, I don’t give a crap about the owners any more than I give a crap about the managers, general managers, players or grounds crew. I care about the sport, Major League Baseball and my favorite team. All three of those things would be well served by either a much greater revenue sharing, a hard salary cap or both.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Dec 24, 2008 12:23 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

NYRoyal – Well stated. I couldn’t agree more.

devil_fingers — Perhaps I missed the sarcasm, but for the record, NYY haven’t won a WS since 2000.

I don't fight extra players.

by paleblueeyes on Dec 24, 2008 12:37 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

idea

Change the time needed to become an FA from six years to eight years.

I dunno if that would fly, but I think that’d help. It’d make teams become at least somewhat more reliant on developing their players…because most players wouldn’t become free agents until they are past their prime and wouldn’t be quite as shiny.

Founder of the Johnny Giavotella fan club.

by doublestix on Dec 24, 2008 12:34 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's a nice idea, but it really hits the players in the wallet

There’s no reason for MLBPA to go along with having players lose out on money like that.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Dec 24, 2008 12:36 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah...

Fehr may come to your house and deliver you a turd sandwich for Christmas for even suggesting such a thing.

"Quit trying to strike everybody out. Strikeouts are boring...besides that they're fascist. Throw some groundballs. It's more democratic."

by Sweep_the_Leg on Dec 24, 2008 10:11 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Royals' 2009 Payroll

So are the Royals going to trim their payroll before the season begins? If yes, what are they going to do? I figure option 1 is to pull off a miracle and dump a large portion of Guillen’s salary. If that is unsuccessful, I’m thinking Option 2 is to dump some medium salaries (say Buck and Teahen) and replace them with league minimum salaries.

Thoughts??

I don't fight extra players.

by paleblueeyes on Dec 24, 2008 12:41 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They might decrease payroll a bit, but I wouldn't be surprised if they just sat tight with the payroll at this level

They could trade Teahen or Buck or both, which would net them a savings of about $3M each. But I really don’t think Glass feels like the payroll needs to go down from where it is.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Dec 24, 2008 12:47 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Glad to Hear It

I hope you’re right because if our increase in payroll on guys like Farnsworth, Jacobs, H. Ramirez, and Crisp forced us to dump the salaries of reasonably priced guys like Teahen and Buck then, well, I would hate our offseason even more.

I don't fight extra players.

by paleblueeyes on Dec 24, 2008 12:58 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It would depend what we get back for them

For an appropriate return, I have no problem with trading Teahen, Buck or both. I like both players, but while they are pretty good values this year, next year will be their third arbitrations and they might end up being more expensive then than they are worth. Given that they are cheaper now and have more team control years ahead of them, this might be their highest trade value point.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Dec 24, 2008 1:06 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The disturbing thing

Is that Sabathia and Teixeira didn’t seem all that keen on joining the Yankees but they got them anyway. I don’t mind then getting Burnett because he seems to be Guillen’s light skinned brother.(injury prone and a serious clubhouse cancer)

by hunter s. royal on Dec 24, 2008 12:54 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That was weird

I thought CC was headed to SoCal, and Tex to Washington or Boston for sure. I was kinda hoping the Yanks got shutout and this marked a new trend in baseball.

The new trend is that the Yankees can spend eleventy billion dollars at players.

Still, after all this spending, isn’t their payroll going to actually be LESS next year than it was in 2008? They had a lot of dead weight on their payroll they got rid of.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Dec 24, 2008 10:21 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

it'll likely be slightly more...

they still need to sign another starter (probably Pettite) which will put them above last years number. However, those who are NOW complaining about the Yankees spending shouldve spent the entire last year while they were in 3rd place complaining as well. If those people werent complaining, they’re just bitching now about the Yanks spending smarter…which is stupid

TPJ...you're dead to me

by billybeingbilly on Dec 24, 2008 10:50 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah...

this is the first time I’ve ever heard anyone bitch about the Yankee’s payroll (/sarcasm).

by djk royal on Dec 24, 2008 11:35 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Cashman has made many mistakes

but he played these negotiations pretty brilliantly, in that hardly anyone saw this coming until the last minute…

Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary since sometime in 2008.

by devil_fingers on Dec 24, 2008 5:09 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

True

He handled the Tex issue well. But in the final analysis, what enabled the Yanks to sign him? They had the money and were willing to offer more than anyone else. And they are probably paying A.J. Burnett, but it wasn’t too much for the Yankees. They can afford to swallow his injury risk.

BTW, this post wasn’t about disagreeing with you. I’m just using it to support my overall point.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Dec 24, 2008 5:22 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah

No one says Asmodeus isn’t smart, just evil

I wish morse was still around to enjoy this.

Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary since sometime in 2008.

by devil_fingers on Dec 24, 2008 5:36 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

everything i've read says that the Nats offered between 178-184 million....

for 8 years and were open to the possibility of going 9-10 years…so the yanks ‘offering the most money’ isnt exactly true

TPJ...you're dead to me

by billybeingbilly on Dec 24, 2008 7:10 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

salary cap?

I guess I’m a bit ignorant when it comes to the pros and cons of a salary cap. My gut reaction is that it’s bad, but I can’t really say why I feel that way.

I’m not too upset the Yankees got those guys for $400+MM… I think it’s incredibly stupid to invest that much money in just three players. Let them spend their money poorly. We all know it’s going to backfire at least a little bit… if not a whole lot.

Unless I’m missing something, I can’t see any reason to get a salary cap other than to appease the brewers GM who missed on CC Sabathia. If small market teams can make it to the playoffs and even to the world series, then why change the system?

I’m in favor for more penalties and taxes on the teams who spend over a certain amount… but the cap doesn’t make sense to me.

by CollininCalifornia on Dec 24, 2008 3:59 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm with you

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Dec 24, 2008 10:21 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Something which decreases the massive economic disparity in baseball would be a good thing
I’m not too upset the Yankees got those guys for $400+MM… I think it’s incredibly stupid to invest that much money in just three players. Let them spend their money poorly. We all know it’s going to backfire at least a little bit… if not a whole lot.

If a team with limited resources spent $60M per year on just three players, that would be a bad thing. But this isn’t incredibly stupid for the Yankees. These were great signings for the Yankees. The Yankees signed a legitimate ace, a great first baseman and another pitcher who is an ace when healthy. Sure there’s risk in these long-term deals, but for the Yankees and their massive revenues, the risk is small. If one or more of those players fail, they can just go out and replace him with another $20M player. People bring up the bad Carl Pavano contract. But that didn’t hurt the Yankees at all. Pavano couldn’t help the Yankees, so they went out and signed Pettitte and Clemens. When you have massive revenues like the Yankees, you can fix mistakes by just spending more money.

Unless I’m missing something, I can’t see any reason to get a salary cap other than to appease the brewers GM who missed on CC Sabathia. If small market teams can make it to the playoffs and even to the world series, then why change the system?

So if small market teams can ever get to the playoffs and even the World Series, then the system is just fine? Is that the standard? I don’t think it should be. Small market teams can, if they do things just right, have windows of time when they can make it to the playoffs for a while before they have to tear the team down and rebuild. The A’s and Twins have had their windows. The Rays are in their window. Excellent front offices in those organizations allowed them to put together young, cheap talent for them to get to the playoffs occasionally, and that’s about it. But for a small market team, you can’t sustain success. The good, young, cheap players hit free agency and such a team can only afford to re-sign some of them. The rest have to be traded away to larger market teams.

Large market teams have no such problem. The Yankees, Red Sox, Cubs, Dodgers and Angels can re-sign any good, young player they develop. They can also afford to trade for these players, taking advantage of the poverty of small market teams. A small market team needs a very good FO in order to succeed. A large market team needs only a competent front office to experience success. Cashman and the Yankees front office aren’t particularly impressive. They’ve had lots of misses mixed in with their hits. But it doesn’t make any difference. When any mistake can be compensated for with another $20M per year signing of a superstar, mistakes become almost irrelevant.

I’m in favor for more penalties and taxes on the teams who spend over a certain amount… but the cap doesn’t make sense to me.

While I think significant changes to MLB’s economic system are necessary, I don’t know that a hard salary cap must be a part of the solution. I think creating a salary cap, along with greater revenue sharing would help deal with the large competitive imbalance in MLB. If that salary cap were coupled with much greater revenue sharing and the cap amount was set at a certain fair percentage of those revenues (as it is in the NFL), it would be fair to the players. It could also be coupled with a salary floor so that owners couldn’t just pocket the revenue sharing money and not spend it on their team. But I’m willing to give up the cap idea if MLB would just take revenue sharing seriously. Currently small market teams get scraps from MLB’s table. If TV money were shared equally, we’d have a much more equitable system.

Why is greater economic parity in MLB important? Cetainly not just because I want the Royals to win more. It’s because I want MLB to thrive for the long-term. Over the last 15 years, MLB has lost popularity when compared to the NFL and NBA. The fact that it is a slower paced game may have something to do with that. But I also think it has something to do with the fact that every season many markets know their team has little or no shot of contending. When you are consistently losing fan interest in many markets and indeed entire regions, that hurts the popularity of the sport. It leads to lower viewership of nationally televised games, fewer hits on MLB.com and less interest in the playoffs and World Series. Economic disparity could easily lead to either the contraction of some small market teams, or for them to move to larger markets. And if you start losing teams from Florida, the midwest and other smaller markets, the fan interest in those areas is going to dry up over the long-term. Baseball cannot succeed as a major national sport if its teams are concentrated merely in large and medium markets. The NFL’s socialist-like economic system has shown how popular and profitable a sport can be when every team has an equal chance to compete.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Dec 24, 2008 11:38 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I wish I had a good metric for you. I’ve read the above many times elsewhere, but that of course doesn’t make it true. I do think that the popularity of MLB has decreased over the last 15 years. Things have gotten better over the last few years, but I don’t think that is part of a long-term trend. I think the overall trend of MLB’s popularity over the last 15-20 years is going down, and will continue to go down over the coming decades if things don’t improve.

Metrics comparing the popularity of MLB, NFL and NBA are difficult because they have different season lengths and different broadcasting opportunities. But over the last 15 years, MLB national TV ratings are down, while they are up for NFL. And I think this is doubly true for the playoffs. This is my general recollection (which I know doesn’t provide much in the way of support or substantiation) from what I’ve read.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Dec 24, 2008 12:15 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't see it at all

NBA ratings are down too. In fact, ratings are down for many sports other than the NFL. But MLB attendance is higher than ever. Revenues are higher than ever. Merchandising is higher than ever. MLB Network will have be in more homes than any other fledgling network in history. MLB.com does very well. I just don’t see a decline in interest.

Another sport that comes to mind that has great economic disparity – college football – also seems to be enjoying continuing success. So I don’t see how economic disparity has much to do with declining interest. If anything, the NBA with is soft cap, seems to be hurting more than baseball.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Dec 24, 2008 12:22 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Replies

1. Of course there are underdogs. Yes, economic disparity is much greater now than it was in the 80’s. Economic disparity really blossomed in the last 10 or so years, in large part because of the emergency of larger market teams developing Regional Sports Networks (RSN’s) like the Yankees Yes Network. What was a smaller problem in the 80’s has become a huge problem in the 21st century. So the fact that the Royals could and did compete in the 1980’s doesn’t mean there are not a massive competitive disadvantage now.
2. Small market teams are at a massive disadvantage

Small Market Teams can, fairly consistently, compete…

To support this, you cite one team. The exception does not prove the rule. The fact that these division titles are exceptional actually does help to prove the rule. And the Twins were helped that they are in a smaller market division. And what usually happened when they got to the playoffs, they were quickly knocked out by a larger market team.

They were shrewd, yes, but not so incredibly lucky that other teams couldn’t repeat their feat.

I’m not saying it is impossible. I’m saying it is very difficult. It is considerably more difficult for small market teams to win to get to the playoffs and to succeed in the playoffs. You may not care that the playing field is inherently unlevel, but I certainly do.
3. Attendance

Basically, attendance is up and has been growing for a while now.

For a few years. It’s easy to pick a short period of time and say, “hey everything’s great right now.” But over the longer-term, things aren’t so rosy. Will you actually be surprised 15 years from now when attendance will be down for the fifth year in a row, continuing the long-term trends over the last few decades?

Conclusion: Maybe the cap is a good idea, but I just don’t see a need. I’m all for more revenue sharing and penalties for teams that spend over a certain amount. But I don’t see a need to make baseball follow the NFL. I’d rather reward smart GMs and franchises for hard work — especially those who do it in small markets.

What is the value in having a system where there are inherent, structural advantages to some teams and disadvantages to others? Yes, the system rewards hard work and doing things well, but it doesn’t do so equally. The Yankees can contend just about every year merely by spending a lot of money. They don’t have to do it particularly well. Small market teams can only contend when their front offices do things very well. If a large market team screws up on a big FA signing or two, they can work around it and spend more to cover for it. If a small market team does that, they are hamstrung for multiple seasons. If a large market team has a few bad drafts, they can compensate with free agent signings. If a small market team has a few bad drafts in a row, their minor league system will likely suck for years, destroying the team’s only source of good, young, cheap talent.

If a football team had to play every game on a field that was at a 15-degree pitch, and they had to play every quarter going uphill, they could win some games. In some seasons, they might even get to the playoffs. But is that a good reason to keep the playing field uneven? When there are things that can be done to level the playing field, why shouldn’t we do them? I think the only real debate should be about what is the best way of going about that? A better luxury tax, and/or greater revenue sharing, and/or some kind of salary cap, and/or many other things that could and perhaps should be done.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Dec 24, 2008 2:34 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Market Size

Let’s check out market sizes together:

Markets of more than 10 million people
————————————————————————————

21,199,865 New York Mets, New York Yankees
16,373,645 Los Angeles Angels, Los Angeles Dodgers

Markets of 5-10 million people
————————————————————————————
9,157,540 Chicago Cubs, Chicago White Sox
7,608,070 Baltimore Orioles, Washington Nationals
7,039,362 Oakland Athletics, San Francisco Giants
6,188,463 Philadelphia Phillies
5,819,100 Boston Red Sox
5,456,428 Detroit Tigers
5,221,801 Texas Rangers

Markets of 3-5 million people
————————————————————————————
4,682,897 Toronto Blue Jays
4,669,571 Houston Astros
4,112,198 Atlanta Braves
3,878,380 Florida Marlins
3,554,760 Seattle Mariners
3,251,876 Arizona Diamondbacks

Markets of 2-3 million people
————————————————————————————
2,968,806 Minnesota Twins
2,945,831 Cleveland Indians
2,813,833 San Diego Padres
2,603,607 St Louis Cardinals
2,581,506 Colorado Rockies
2,395,997 Tampa Bay Devil Rays
2,358,695 Pittsburgh Pirates

Markets of 1-2 million people
————————————————————————————
1,979,202 Cincinnati Reds
1,776,062 Kansas City Royals
1,689,572 Milwaukee Brewers

Ok, so there are 10 teams in markets with under 3 Million people.

Lets see how payroll stacks up. I’ll list each team’s rank in payroll since 2000:

(Size) 00 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08
21. MIN 30 20 27 18 19 20 19 18 25
22. CLE 8 5 9 26 27 26 25 23 16
23. SD 16 25 26 27 17 16 17 24 19
24. STL 11 9 13 8 9 6 11 11 11
25. COL 14 13 19 16 14 24 28 25 20
26. TB 10 19 30 30 29 30 29 30 29
27. PIT 27 18 24 19 28 28 27 27 27
28. CIN 22 21 23 17 24 18 22 20 18
29. KC 28 27 22 29 22 29 26 22 24
30 MIL 23 23 21 28 30 27 24 19 15

formatting sucks… sorry.

Anyways, what do we see here? I’ll tell you what I see:

— The teams that are consistently out of the bottom 10 in payroll size (like the Twins and Cardinals) are teams who have produced a lot of homegrown talent. This means, to me, that when you produce good talent thru the draft, you can expect more revenue to come to your team and can then expect to maintain some level of success. How else do you explain the Cardinals being the 24th largest market but having a payroll consistently in the top 15? I say it’s b/c they have good teams and therefore good revenue. It can be done thru the draft.

— The teams consistently in the bottom 10 are teams who have failed at growing talent on the farm. See the Royals, Brewers (until 2007), Pirates, The exception would be the Rays. Some might say the Royals had a great farm system in the late 1990’s, so why didn’t we succeed? We didn’t produce the right mixture of talent — ie, all hitters and no good pitching.

— How many of these teams have made the playoffs in the last 3 years? 4.
21 — Twins
24 — Cardinals
26 — Rays
30 — Brewers

I agree with NYRoyal that a few teams can succeed even if the odds are stacked against them, but that it’s always going to be easier for the Yankees. It’s not fair and I don’t think anyone would argue with that. I just don’t know if I’m comfortable with altering a system that sees 4 of the bottom 10 teams (in market size) make the playoffs in the last 3 years.

by CollininCalifornia on Dec 24, 2008 4:52 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I just don’t know if I’m comfortable with altering a system that sees 4 of the bottom 10 teams (in market size) make the playoffs in the last 3 years.

So if in one 3-year period, 4 of the bottom 10 teams make at least one playoff appearance, then there’s sufficient competitive balance for you? I think that’s a poor standard. Over the last 10 years, how many playoff appearances have there been from the 10 largest market teams? And over the last 10 years, how many playoff appearances have there been from the 10 smallest market teams? I don’t have those numbers, but I have a strong feeling that the number from the first group is much larger than the second group. I think the difference in those numbers would show a pretty big competitive imbalance.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Dec 24, 2008 5:03 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

1 example doesnt prove the rule...

but where are the juggernauts with the big payrolls? Boston? One example. Hey, maybe Florida has some huge inherent advantage b/c they’ve won 2 world series. The Braves won a million division titles in a row, whats their advantage? Why havent the Dodgers won? How about the Cubs? Tigers? It’s because good management is what wins.

TPJ...you're dead to me

by billybeingbilly on Dec 24, 2008 7:14 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

t’s because good management is what wins.

And money isn’t such a big deal? Then why do large market teams make it to the playoffs so much more often? Coincidence?

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Dec 24, 2008 7:37 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

nobody is saying money is irrelevant....

we’re just saying that all the money in the world doesnt buy championships….good management is the one thing that every winner has…they dont all spend a ton of money

TPJ...you're dead to me

by billybeingbilly on Dec 24, 2008 8:17 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Yankees had a big run of success with mediocre management. They did some things right and made a lot of mistakes, and still kept going back to the playoffs year after year. But I’m not saying that money is the only relevant factor. A team with a great front office and little money can still have some success. But money is a very important factor. And the differences in money create major, structural obstacles to success for small market teams. Again, a good football team can beat a bad football team playing on a tilted playing field and having to go uphill every quarter, but that doesn’t mean it is fair or that the tilted playing field is a good thing for the game.

If I looked back over the last 10 years playoffs to see how many times the biggest 10 market teams and the smallest 10 market teams made the playoffs (which I’ll probably do sometime in the next few days), I’d find that the biggest 10 market teams made it to the playoffs much more often. I think that shows the unfair advantage that large market teams have. The fact that sometimes this advantage is overcome doesn’t mean that the advantage large market teams have is a good thing or something we should just ignore.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Dec 24, 2008 8:21 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

nor should you ignore the fact that alot of low payroll teams...

such as the Royals cant afford to have a higher payroll b/c they’ve never been smart enough to throw some money down to compete and draw fans. There’s absolutely no excuse for the Royals to be drawing 20k fans/game…other than terrible management

TPJ...you're dead to me

by billybeingbilly on Dec 24, 2008 8:27 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ok
the Royals cant afford to have a higher payroll b/c they’ve never been smart enough to throw some money down to compete and draw fans.

So you’re saying that more money spent = more wins = more fans. Sure. And it is harder for small market teams to spend more money than it is for large market teams. It’s not like large market owners are more generous and like spending more. They just have more money to spend. The Royals spend a higher percentage of their revenues on payroll than some large market teams.

Also, I want to point out that if the Royals spent more, that wouldn’t greatly increase their revenue. More wins lead to greater attendance, but most of a team’s revenue comes from TV and radio, not from the gate. And the size of the market limits the potential money that could come from TV and radio deals. There are only so many potential viewers and listeners in that market.

There’s absolutely no excuse for the Royals to be drawing 20k fans/game…other than terrible management

Well, there is that one other thing which makes it hard for small market teams to win games…

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Dec 24, 2008 8:50 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

so..you're saying that the royals havent been competitive since....

1994 b/c they havent spent enough money?

hugh walker, brent mayne, jason pruitt, joe vittielo, johnny damon, sherard clinkscale, jim pittsley, mike tucker, jeff granger, matt smith, juan lebron, dee brown, dan reichert, ,chris george, matt burch, jeff austin, jimmy gobble, jay gehrke, mike macdougal, kyle snyder, mike stodoloka, colt griffin…

TPJ...you're dead to me

by billybeingbilly on Dec 25, 2008 2:54 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Your logic contains a lot of fallacies..

1. There are plenty of underdogs. Did anyone see the giants winning the SB last year? Does anyone think the Cards are going to win this year? Football as a whole places a greater emphasis on quality team building for EVERY team in the league. The teams that are consistently successful are the teams that build their teams intelligently through the draft and make smart free agency moves. Teams generally dont sign guys like Carl Pavano in football because if they mess up then they just screwed their salary cap. All too often in baseball we see teams, both small market and large, forced to sign players based on what they can do at their peak, not what they actually can do. Which is why guys like AJ Burnett get ridiculous amounts of money for being ticking time bombs.

Also the payroll comparisons simply point out a growing disparity in payroll.
2008 Payrolls:
NYY $ 209,081,577
NYM $ 137,793,376
DET $ 137,685,196
BOS $ 133,390,035
CWS $ 121,189,332

KCR $ 58,245,500

1988 Payrolls
NYY $ 18,909,152
DET $ 15,597,071
BOS $ 15,544,592
NYM $ 15,502,714
LAD $ 15,462,515

KCR $ 11,558,873

Using these numbers, in order for the Royals to approach the “parity” they had in the 80’s, they would have to spend $120 million today. something that just isnt possible. In fact even the cheapest team back then isnt comparable to the marlins today. If the marlins spent like the ChiSox did, then their payroll would be at about $50 million. but this year several teams were at that level.

So those numbers tell me that baseball’s parity is evaporating, just in the last 20 years or so. Hell unless II miss my mark I believe that the royals actually had the highest payroll in baseball in 1994

2. One small market team, that got very lucky in finding talent ( I mean come on, SIX or more allstars in a 5 year period? Mauer, Morneau, Santana, Liriano, Nathan, Hunter) and got even luckier that enough of that talent was willing to sign cheap enough that it wouldnt cripple them? A team with an incredible manager an even more incredible front office. AND THIS IS JUST ONE TEAM. AND THEY ARENT EVEN SUCCESSFUL EVERY YEAR. For every Twins, there are 3-4 teams like the royals nats, orioles, marlins, rays,indians, etc, that are not so lucky.

3. Of course attendance has gone up. Here’s an idea, compare the number of available seats in 2008 with the number of available seats in 1998. I guarantee you that thanks to all the new stadiums the number of seats to fill has probably gone way up. In fact I would be willing to bet season tickets next year that the ratio of filled seats to the number of available seats (the RATIO of attendence) has likely gone down. Meaning that while more people are coming(and setting records) it is likely not as many comparatively that would have come 10 years ago.

I refuse to set up a signature....DAMMIT

by RoyalPug on Dec 24, 2008 3:24 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

without getting into a wonkish analysis

salary caps/floors are very inefficient regulatory devices in economics terms. Revenue sharing is much better. That being said, there probably is plenty of strong arguments that current revenue sharing is poorly structured and far too little.

by ZeppelinDZ on Dec 24, 2008 2:19 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

salary caps/floors are very inefficient regulatory devices in economics terms

While I agree that salary caps and floors have some deleterious economic effects in an open economy (supply and demand being what they are), it is not a problem in a closed system like the NFL or MLB. Supply and demand are pretty locked-in in these closed systems.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Dec 24, 2008 2:36 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

open/closed system, what that really means

 would be irrelevant

Supply and demand are pretty locked-in

as with most markets, this is commonly the case in the short run, but virtually never true in the long run, and that’s really what we should be thinking about, right?

by ZeppelinDZ on Dec 24, 2008 2:40 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

moreover...

i think your back and forth with collinincalifornia roughly proves it, the Yankees and their YES network drastically changed the structure of the market… over the course of only about 10 years

by ZeppelinDZ on Dec 24, 2008 2:46 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So, from an economist's point of view

…tell me what you think the downside would be to a hard salary cap in a closed system like MLB. And are those negative effects being seen in the NFL?

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Dec 24, 2008 2:58 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

well

part 1. any salary cap is a wage control, and those types of devices create what are called dead-weight losses. simply, employees (players) aren’t paid their market value. I know its hard for joe the plumber to feel bad for baseball player x to be paid ONLY 5 million dollars, but it doesn’t properly capture economic surplus.

part 2. Moreover, a team like the Yankees have a huge potential market. The most efficient way to operate economically is to make sure they are always are competitive in order to capture that large market. i.e. 50% of new york is bigger than 50% of KC…with plenty of caveats. A salary cap limits their ability to be more competitive than other teams (I know, that’s the point but…). There is a reason Nike will give LeBron James an extra 50 million dollars if he signs with a New York team.

Obviously, the NFL has a salary cap is the bigger sport right now. Its important to recognize we really have trouble comparing the effects of the salary cap there because there is only 1 NFL, we have nothing to compare it against. Could football just be on the cultural rise? are they better marketers? I don’t know.

That being said, sports has an interesting part to it that winners and loser are defined very different from “traditional” markets. Is a team that loses money but wins a World Series a winner or a loser?

The question really becomes, from a fans perspective, how do i maximize my entertainment? I think part of that comes from consistently getting the best players/athletes to play your sport. That comes from paying them a lot of money. The more you give them, the better the product on the field in the long run. this is my part 1 argument. evidence would be the XFL, USFL, minor league baseball, etc. lesser leagues aren’t as fun/popular. Part 2 of my argument says the best way to make money to pay these players is to capture as much money as possible, which most efficiently happens by focusing on larger markets.

So… you want your team to have a chance for your short run entertainment value, but you want large market team to have a long run advantage for the overall benefit of the sport. Both salary caps and revenue sharing (at least heavy rev sharing) accomplish the short run part. But salary caps fail at the long run part, because it puts the Yankees on the same foot as KC. Revenue sharing still give incentives to the Yankees to maximize their profits in the long run, while providing KC with a chance to at least compete.

as long as different teams have different sized markets, there can NEVER be a completely fair system, unless you believe socialism is a viable economic system, which I think is foolish.

That make any sense?

by ZeppelinDZ on Dec 24, 2008 3:36 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

the one sentence version

KC WANTS New Yorkers to pay for our entertainment, which comes from giving small, structural advantages to the Yankees.

by ZeppelinDZ on Dec 24, 2008 3:40 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I also think I should add about the NFL

remember, the NFL has heavy revenue sharing as well. this is probably more significant than its salary cap. Most teams effectively have the same cash to work with. The purpose of the salary cap is to prevent owners who value winning as a team more than winning on a balance sheet from skewing the odds in their favor.

by ZeppelinDZ on Dec 24, 2008 3:44 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I fully agree that a salary cap without a great deal of revenue sharing is a bad idea

Without greater revenue sharing, the salary cap would have to be pretty low, which would just artificially lower salaries greatly, which isn’t fair and the MLBPA would never agree to it. But a salary cap with great revenue sharing, as the NFL does it, works quite well.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Dec 24, 2008 3:56 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i think my point is

with the rev sharing, the salary cap doesn’t really do very much

by ZeppelinDZ on Dec 24, 2008 4:12 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So… you want your team to have a chance for your short run entertainment value, but you want large market team to have a long run advantage for the overall benefit of the sport.

How does the long-term advantage of large market teams make for an overall benefit of the sport?

More money does help the sport. The question is how should the money be spent? Should a disproportionate amount of the money MLB rakes in be spent in large markets and a disproportionate amount spent in small markets? I don’t think that is best for the sport, or for the fan experience. If you more fully share revenues and have hard salary cap which is tied to a fixed percentage of those revenues (as the NFL does), then it wouldn’t mean less money to the players. It would just mean a more fair distribution of revenues and talent among MLB teams.

as long as different teams have different sized markets, there can NEVER be a completely fair system, unless you believe socialism is a viable economic system, which I think is foolish.

It works in the NFL. Of course, that isn’t actually socialism. NFL, like MLB, is more like a large company which has multiple franchises. It can share revenues among those franchises if it likes, for the betterment of the parent company. That’s not socialism. That’s just good business (if you can get the franchisees to agree to it).

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Dec 24, 2008 3:54 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

How does the long-term advantage of large market teams make for an overall benefit of the sport?

a winning Yankees team takes in more money than a winning Royals team. If you provide a structure to make sure the Yankees win more than the Royals, you take in more money in the long run, improving the quality of the Royals as well in the process.

It should be noted that 100% revenue sharing doesn’t do that either. If you want to get technically, that accomplishes even more efficient parity. But it doesn’t satisfy my point about capturing larger markets. What happens at that point is perfect wealth re-distribution. The problem with it is it is to the Yankees detriment. It removes the incentive for them to improve their team. That is socialism. Comparing it to an internal company is inaccurate because the competition factor is much different, and that gets back to my point about winners and losers.

These arguments are really no different than things like welfare and progressive taxation, and honestly, the economics gets fairly complex here. Much of which is debatable because of fundamental philosophical differences between parties.

It works in the NFL.

Does it? prove it… That the point of a couple of my comments, the NFL is very successful right now, but to say it is from its economic system is baseless. Maybe the NFL is more popular cause the game is more exciting for fans to watch. Maybe the NFL salary cap is hurting the league a lot, but because other factors are so much stronger, it gets balanced out.

by ZeppelinDZ on Dec 24, 2008 4:10 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

. If you provide a structure to make sure the Yankees win more than the Royals, you take in more money in the long run, improving the quality of the Royals as well in the process.

That structure which makes sure the Yankees win more than Royals helps the Yankees and hurts the Royals. Bringing in more money to baseball, of which only a small portion gets to the Royals does not provide a net improvement to the quality of the Royals.

What happens at that point is perfect wealth re-distribution. The problem with it is it is to the Yankees detriment. It removes the incentive for them to improve their team. That is socialism.

Wrong. Making more money is not the only incentive for a professional sports team to improve their team. Professional sports organizations want to win. NFL teams have not ceased to try to build winners merely because revenues are shared.

Does it? prove it…

The NFL is popular, very profitable and broadly competitive. I don’t see the NFL experiencing problems because of their revenue sharing and salary cap.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Dec 24, 2008 4:22 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

anyways, im leaving work and will be out of town for a while

if you want to respond further, i probably wont look at it til next monday

merry christmas dude.

peace, love, and baseball

by ZeppelinDZ on Dec 24, 2008 4:17 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

merry Christmas, Zeppelin

even though these last few posts made me feel totally inadequate

Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary since sometime in 2008.

by devil_fingers on Dec 24, 2008 5:12 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just raise the luxury tax to a ludicrous amount

something like the NBA. Lower the limit to like 120-150 million and every dollar over that is luxury taxed per dollar. So 130 million dollars over is 130 million in luxury tax. It gives teams financial flexibility to a good degree.

I agree its legal etc etc they still have to win etc etc its still possible for small market teams to compete etc etc etc. Are the Yankees probably going to win the WS? No. Do they have the best chance? hell yes. Still its just really lame how it turned out.

by wildthang on Dec 24, 2008 4:39 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

You have to remember there are also the Loria’s of the baseball world, as well.

"Quit trying to strike everybody out. Strikeouts are boring...besides that they're fascist. Throw some groundballs. It's more democratic."

by Sweep_the_Leg on Dec 24, 2008 10:09 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't like a cap

But this may be the impetus to move towards one in MLB.

I think a better solution would be to move the Florida Marlins to New Jersey.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Dec 24, 2008 10:19 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

On another note

Does a DeJesus for Swisher trade make a bit of sense now? I can’t imagine the Yanks will go into the season with Swish as their starting CF.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Dec 24, 2008 10:20 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

DeJesus doesn’t make enough $$ to play in NY.

by GoBabies!! on Dec 24, 2008 10:36 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think it would make sense for both teams

…and that it probably won’t happen.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Dec 24, 2008 11:39 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

why is it sad?

DDJ is a better defender, has a better contract, and if Keith law is right about Swisher’s bat speed (it slowed way down this year), then DDJ is superior offensively as well.

why should we have to give up DDJ to get him anyways?

DDJ > whatever crap the White sox got for Swisher

Founder of the Johnny Giavotella fan club.

by doublestix on Dec 24, 2008 11:17 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

why should we have to give up DDJ to get him anyways?

Because the Yankees front office is smarter — at least with regard to Swisher — than the Chisox front office. Kenny Williams gave up Swisher for a song. I don’t think the Yankees would do that. DDJ is better defensively, but I think the available evidence shows that Swisher is considerably better offensively. I do that deal in a second.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Dec 26, 2008 1:39 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

as do i...

the only way the yanks do that deal is if they are desperate for a negligible upgrade in CF defense….

TPJ...you're dead to me

by billybeingbilly on Dec 26, 2008 4:48 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Negligible upgrade in CF defense?

DeJesus would be a significant upgrade in CF defense over Damon or Swisher. And if the comparison is with Melky Cabrera, he’s much better than Melky overall. So this would be a pretty good trade for both teams. It would give the Yankees the CFer they need, and it upgrades a corner OF position for the Royals.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Dec 26, 2008 1:02 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Meh

I’m sure it’s been mentioned but it’d be ignorant to not consider all the money coming off the books for the Yankees in this offseason which is pretty significant.

by Royal from Queens on Dec 24, 2008 3:42 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just one note

This and the other “ZOMG Tex—————>Yanks!!!111” post each need a “our national innocence” tag.

Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary since sometime in 2008.

by devil_fingers on Dec 24, 2008 5:19 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

here are some interesting tidbits from a joe posnanski blog...

in the past 10 years, 15 mlb teams (out of 30) have played in the world series…8 different teams have won….

for comparison…
nfl—16 teams have played for the championship (50% as well) 9 teams have won
nba— 9 teams have participated with 5 winning…
nhl—who cares

all of you guys are complaining about the HORRIBLE unfairness in MLB due to the revenue inequalities, but the other sports have such better systems then why are they no better when it comes to spreading the winning around?

http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/12/25/buying-an-umbrella-in-new-york/

TPJ...you're dead to me

by billybeingbilly on Dec 26, 2008 7:55 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm going to be making a long fanpost about this soon

Over the last 10 years, teams from the largest 10 markets have made it to the playoffs twice as often as teams from the smallest 10 markets. The average record of the large market teams is much higher than that of the small market teams. The large market teams have nearly twice as many seasons with winning percentages over .500 and more than twice as many seasons with 85 wins. The competitive imbalance is very significant. Small market teams are not entirely prevented from being competitive and large market teams are not guaranteed success. But there are inherent, structural advantages for the large market teams and concomitant disadvantages for the small market teams. And these have shown themselves in the large performance and success disparities between the two groups of teams.

So yeah, there is a lot of HORRIBLE unfairness in MLB, centered around its financial structure. The above metrics of the number of teams who have played for a championship is a really crappy way of determining competitive balance/imbalance. How many of those 16 baseball teams are from the 10 smallest markets? Very few.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Dec 26, 2008 8:27 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i hope you're planning to compare across sports...

b/c you always talk about how a cap or increased revenue sharing will increase parity to a meaningful extent and those other sports do have those things

TPJ...you're dead to me

by billybeingbilly on Dec 26, 2008 8:39 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My post is going to be about measuring the degree of competitive imbalance. It is going to touch briefly on how one could possibly deal with this imbalance, but I’m not really arguing for any particular reform in the article. The article is going to be about recognizing that there is a competitive imbalance problem (which some deny) and showing the magnitude of the problem. It’s not a comprehensive argument for more luxury tax, and/or greater revenue sharing, and/or a salary cap.

It would be interesting to do a similar comparison with the NFL. I might get to that one of these days.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Dec 26, 2008 9:32 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You all have touched on two potential solutions that I agree with

1) these are franchises that are part of a one big corporation (MLB), and as such, the franchises theoretically should be distributed equally among the locations where max revenue for MLB as a whole could be produced. MLB has failed woefully in this regard – some markets might be too small to support a franchise, while others could easily support 4 or 5 instead of 1 or 2. Unfortunately, franchise movements or expansions have to be agreed upon by existing franchises and the player’s union, so this solution is virtually eliminated.

2) Revenue sharing should be pervasive enough to result in fair play, without being so pervasive as to act as a disincentive to win. That’s a tricky balance – but I’m pretty sure MLB doesn’t have it correct as of today. Logic would tell you that without an opponent, the Yankees local media revenue would essentially not exist – so why isn’t the visiting team entitled to a significant portion of the local media revenue? It is local revenue in general (and local media revenue in particular) that has thrown MLB’s competitive balance way out of whack. Please note: THIS IS NOT AN ISSSUE WITH THE NFL! The NFL derives such a huge share of it’s revenue from the massive, NATIONAL TV deals (shared revenue), that is almost doesn’t even matter what your local stadium revenue is, or what your local media (radio) revenue is. NOT THE CASE WITH MLB! National, shared media revenue in baseball is not nearly as important as local media revenue, so comparing the NFL to MLB business models is truly apples to oranges.

Mr Glass, this is a pro sports team, not a retail store - run it like one!

by loyal2sdad on Dec 30, 2008 1:40 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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