The Royals are not necessarily planning on using Mike Jacobs at first base next season. Ideally, the team wants Mark Teahen to win the job full-time; Jacobs then could platoon with Billy Butler at designated hitter. Jacobs, recently acquired from the Marlins, ranked a dismal 35th among qualifying major-league first basemen in the plus-minus defensive ratings last season, according to Bill James Online ...
Mark Teahen - valuable player or THE MOST valuable player?
over 3 years ago
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Billy Butler former top prospect.
Now in his third season reduced to a projected platoon partner for the DH role. The lesser half of the platoon at that. Sigh…
by djk royal on Dec 5, 2008 11:09 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
and surely they've got a large enough sample size to have a good handle on Butler's defense
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 5, 2008 2:44 PM EST up reply actions
Was that sincerity, sarcasm or insanity?
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 5, 2008 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
sarcasm
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 5, 2008 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
with a bit of post-Jacobs acquisition insanity thrown in
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 5, 2008 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
We've got to get a font going here
Because more than a few of us in this community would say in all sincerity that they’ve seen enough of him at 1B to know how good his defense is.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 5, 2008 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
funny side note
I wish I could find the story I ran across a couple days ago. It was from some Spring Training story pre-2008 — maybe 2007. There was just a line in there about Butler being “nimble” around first base.
I’m not in a position to judge Billy’s defensive skills, but I’m guessing “nimble” doesn’t make it onto a lot of his scouting reports.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 5, 2008 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
The keys that spell
“nimble” are SO CLOSE to the keys that spell “cinder block.” It was probably just a simple typo.
If Rosenthal reports a rumor, it must be true
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 5, 2008 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
Who Is Rosenthal
And does he really know anything? Teahen to 1B and Butler as the lesser half of a Jacobs/Butler DH platoon would manage to negate Teahen’s best fielding assets (OF range, arm) and minimize the value of one our most promising RH hitters. Butler’s struggles against RHP’s are something he needs to work on in order to be a MLB player; he won’t do that by sitting on the pine watching Jacobs bat. Furthermore, if Butler’s value is ever to be maximized he needs to play a position in the field, most likely 1B. This makes no sense.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Dec 5, 2008 11:15 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
You're right
It doesn’t make any sense. But that doesn’t mean it won’t happen. We did, after all, give Ross Gload a contract extension.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
If this is true (which I can't believe), then Dayton really does need to hire Allard as a consultant
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 5, 2008 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
its totally dumb
but this leadership group has been itching to move teabag or gordon to first for two years
If they really wanted to do that, they could have done so at any point in the last two years
It’s not like there as a great 1B incumbent. I think if they really wanted Gordon or Teahen there, they would have done so. Hopefully with the new OF situation they aren’t genuinely more inclined to move Teahen to 1B.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 5, 2008 2:40 PM EST up reply actions
Gordon played 154 innings at 1B two years ago
for no apparent reason
last year, they gave that time to Teahen, with 124 innings at 1B
And?
That 154 innings adds up to all of 17 games in a 162 game season (and much of that was not in starts, but in late game situations where the defense got shuffled). They did a little of it with both Gordon and Teahen and no more. That seems to be good evidence that they didn’t really want either to be a full-time 1B. Hell, if that is what they truly wanted, Gload gave the Royals every opportunity seriously make the change…and they didn’t do it.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 5, 2008 2:48 PM EST up reply actions
maybe, and I hope you are right
but i seem to recall some chatter about this from the official channels from time to time
and in both cases, i mean, how in the hell did it even make sense? maybe if you went with Gordon to 1B and Teahen to 3rd… but i don’t recall that happening too much
lastly, maybe its relevant, maybe its not, but they were doing this with gordon when he was still very young, and probably at his best defensively at third
anywho
you might also be thinking of when Gordon played 1B in the AFL
out of necessity. Can’t remember who was playing 3rd on his team.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 5, 2008 2:54 PM EST up reply actions
and in both cases, i mean, how in the hell did it even make sense
Seeing if either player could be decent at 1B is potentially about figuring out how much flexibility you have. Every season there were and will be various personnel movement possibilities. Maybe they would have an opportunity to bring in a good 3B, so let’s see if Gordon is easily moveable to 1B. Or maybe if German looked better in 2008 and 2009 he’d be a legit 3B option for the future and Gordon could move. And then of course if you bring in an OFer, you could potentially have one at 1B and one at 3B.
In short, I think these were diagnostic efforts. Let’s see how they look in case we need to move them. Maybe the addition of Crisp is a personnel move that leads them to move Teahen to 1B. Maybe. We don’t know. Certainly they haven’t telegraphed that this is what they desperately want to do because Gordon and Teahen have each played a dozen or so games there.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 5, 2008 2:58 PM EST up reply actions
BTW, I have no idea how true or not this rumor is
I’m sure some in the front office are at least discussing it. Is this idea the majority sentiment? I haven’t the first clue. I’m skeptical because I think Moore isn’t quite that stupid. But it is possible.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 5, 2008 3:06 PM EST up reply actions
I hope this is some kind of joke
Billy Butler possesses more hitting ability in his freakin baconator filled gut than Teahen does in his entire f***in body. GMDM obviously didn’t draft Butler and therefore is going to do everything he can to not play him. They act like he is Adam Dunn at 1b he is not a hack he has decent hands and lacks range at a position that it is ok to lack range at. Mark Teahen is a hack who should be shipped away just so they don’t have the option to use him because this idiotic organization can’t help it self from.
Mark Teahen is the Royals form of heroin.
It takes 46 muscles to frown but only 4 to flip 'em the bird.
Teahen's Platoon Splits
Suggest he would be a more valuable batter if his PA’s against LHP’s were minimized. He’s old enough that we’re pretty sure what he is, so he’s at the stage where he should be used according to the team’s needs. My idea to acquire Juan Rivera as a platoon partner was with this in mind. Though it will never happen, with our current roster, the best OF would be DDJ, Crisp and Teahen/Guillen platooning in RF.
Butler, on the other hand, needs to be given the opportunity to fail against RHP and at 1B, and it needs to be at the MLB level. He has shown he can mash AAA pitching blindfolded; he needs to develop in the bigs and in the field.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Dec 5, 2008 11:42 AM EST up reply actions
I agree that Butler needs to play in the majors full-time
but his platoon splits are pretty big in the minors, too
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 5, 2008 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
they're big
403/491/781 vs. LHP
307/374/493 vs RHP
so he’s Babe Ruth vs. LHP and a bona fide slugger against RHP
Alex Gordon in '08
If you were going to acquire Jacobs to platoon him
Wouldn’t Russ Branyan have made a heckuva lot more sense?
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
F- yea
Branyan is supposed to be slow, but who is slower, you think, him or Jacobs? I’m guessing Jacobs.
I’d rather watch a guy strike out a bunch than repeatedly get thrown out at after a line-drive to left.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 5, 2008 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
Russell the Muscle!
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 5, 2008 2:44 PM EST up reply actions
very creepy picture
A) he sorta looks like a lapsed Mike Sweeney
B) the evil look on his face as he’s watching her drink
C) the girl’s somewhat scared (or wasted) look on her face
D) the position of his hand
no milk and cookies for Russ
He looks absolutely massive. I don’t mean either cut or fat, he just really fills up the frame.
I assume he is in a pretty typical late-night situation for ballplayers here
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 5, 2008 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
without a doubt
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 5, 2008 2:47 PM EST up reply actions
He DOES look like Sweeney
Do you think Sweeney was the only Catholic on the Royals?
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 5, 2008 2:48 PM EST up reply actions
probably more than a few of the latin players
but I doubt it extended beyond that
white-american bball players seem fairly strongly protestant, and of a born again/mormon persuasion
then again, sweeney described himself as a born again catholic, so…
I miss Sweeney
probably mostly guilt over not appreciating him enough when he was around…
Something kind of funny about him, too.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 5, 2008 2:57 PM EST up reply actions
the last two or three years were awkward
and a huge portion of the fanbase seemed to turn on him, which was kinda lame
Turning on a guy for being injured is pretty classless
…including some accusations that he was faking or not trying hard to rehab himself back into sufficient health to play. It is particularly weak and inappropriate when you’re talking about a player who, by all accounts, is a great, supremely honest, and hardworking guy. He’s a good player who had a chronic back problem. Blame the universe; don’t blame Sweeney.
Thankfully, I think most of the fanbase stuck with him. There were just some loud, tacky, petty voices.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 5, 2008 3:08 PM EST up reply actions
"Here, drink this . . .
now let me see . . . okay, one more."
all this talk is making me pine again
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 5, 2008 2:59 PM EST up reply actions
and he's wearing one of those cool necklaces, from what it looks like
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 5, 2008 2:45 PM EST up reply actions
Rondell White -- another guy who wasn't so bad
(when he was healthy)
another good former expo
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 5, 2008 2:47 PM EST up reply actions
I hope Seattle's version of Kaegel is on this story
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 5, 2008 2:47 PM EST up reply actions
such a bad idea
I’m not one of those people who (for some reason) think Teahen is useless. But this has to be a joke or confusion. Teahen is a guy who might still be a decent starter in the corner outfielder — his bat would probably be below average, but he might have the defense to pull it off. But even if his bat bounces back, he’d have to be about a +15 defende at first to make it worth it.
Dayton Moore might be done with Ross Gload, but if this is true, then he seems intent on recreating him.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
Gentlemen, We Can
Rebuild him……better………faster…….stronger……….
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Dec 5, 2008 11:45 AM EST up reply actions
This would be one Teahen rumor...
…that I would not mind hearing GMDM call a lie.
While the rumor as is would probably spell the end of Gload’s time in KC…Teabag as our full time first baseman? Really? Butler going from batting title messiah to a part-time DH? If someone in the Royals brain trust really is arguing for such a set-up, they need to apply for a job in the Orioles’ organization or something. If the rumor is true (and there is no guarantee that it is), I think it would confirm Moore’s previously rumored distaste for Billy Butler.
What I also found interesting was that nowhere in that rumor was Ryan Shealy. I get the feeling that, in spite of his hot hand this fall, he may be on his way out of the organization too.
Hilariously
Losing Shealy wouldn’t be the end of the world, but he’s probably the only guy of the group who’s actually an above average defense 1B.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 5, 2008 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
I love this franchise
somehow, they’ve made us love, then hate, then love Ryan freaking Shealy in just two short years
+1
How can you make the conclusion that Shealy doesn’t deserve a shot. Your only reasoning to back that up would be that his numbers were against Sept Hacks. That same conclusion could be made on Teahen’s last year numbers his .830 OPS in Sept was by far his best month. I don’t understand how a GM could come to one conclusion for a player and not use that same decision on the other.
It takes 46 muscles to frown but only 4 to flip 'em the bird.
maybe it is because
Teahen took the time to compliment Dayton’s $4 tie from TJ Maxx and Shealy didn’t.
I think Shealy has earned almost every chance to make the 25-man roster out of ST. He won’t be the slugger we hoped he would, but if you consider that his career line is actually a hair better than Teahen’s (.275/.335/.429 for Shealy, .268/.332/.421 for Teabag—with the caveat that Shealy obviously has a much smaller sample size), not giving Shealy every chance to compete with Teahen for the first base job is really, really dumb.
Shealy was set up to FAIL
If his September showing didn’t put him into the picture for 2009, I have to imagine the only thing that would have gotten him there was sniffing Ross Gload’s jock strap every day and trying to bring that same grittiness to the diamond. Hitting homers basically killed his chances.
I knew all the GM's focusing on defense would
come back to bite KC in the ass. The last thing this organization needed was more focus on defense.
It takes 46 muscles to frown but only 4 to flip 'em the bird.
Really?
I don’t know if “focus” is the problem, but given that just about every system shows that the Royals were the worst or one of the worst fielding teams in baseball in 2008, I think a little more attention to good defense is probably a good idea. Of course, I don’t think moving Teahen to first is a good idea. Moreoever, it might be nice if they actually evaluated the defensive skills of players properly.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 5, 2008 1:02 PM EST up reply actions
?
With the pitching of the bottom of the rotation last year KC wouldn’t have won many more games with better defense.
This team was -90 in run differential you aren’t gonna close that huge gap by picking up more guys that can cover more ground. This team needs to focus on building a stronger rotation and a lineup that can get on base and create instant offense.
It takes 46 muscles to frown but only 4 to flip 'em the bird.
This team was -90 in run differential you aren’t gonna close that huge gap by picking up more guys that can cover more ground
Huh? You probably can’t close all of that ground strictly by improving defense, or strictly by improving hitting or pitching. The Royals will probably need some of each. But it is likely less expensive to improve the defense than to improve the hitting or pitching. What is really important is to just make the best moves that improve the net run differential by the largest amount. I really don’t care if it is primarily by improving the defense, offense or pitching.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 5, 2008 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
If this is true, it really just means somebody's on the block
It could be Butler because he has fallen out of favor with the club or it could be Teahen and Moore is only saying that he may be the full-time 1B to make his trade value higher. No big deal. One of these guys won’t be here for opening day.
Yes, I'm still alive. Sorry to disappoint you.
Teahen as the everyday 1B with Butler in a DH platoon would be
A. Idiotic
B. Catastrophic
C. Apocalyptic
D. Moronic
E. All of the above
(Answer: E)
And no, I’m not kidding. Ok, maybe “apocalyptic” is a bit of an exaggeration, but it is in the ballpark. I hope this is either Rosenthal getting it wrong, Rosenthal having a bad source (Kaegel?), the Royals trying to spin Teahen as a very valuable player or something like that.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
"Apocalyptic"
Let me go through my commentaries on the book of Daniel and Revelations, and I’ll get back to ya.
Is Jose Guillen Gog or Magog?
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 5, 2008 1:16 PM EST up reply actions
The four horsemen of the apocalypse
Are Ross Gload, Tony Pena Jr., Jose Guillen and Angel Berroa. Thankfully, they’ve never all been on the roster at the same time.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
If they were on a roster at the same time, it would rip a hole in the fabric of space-time
And if they are the Four Horsemen, then Teahen at 1B and Butler in a DH platoon are the guys who help the Horsemen get into their horses. Or maybe they are the horses. Now that makes you think.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 5, 2008 1:24 PM EST up reply actions
Mike Barnett = The Great Whore of Babylon?
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 5, 2008 1:25 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I thought with Barnett gone, the Royals weren't going to make any more mistakes
I think I’m going to have to send someone a fiery letter. (But in reality, I’m going to withhold criticism of Moore on this unless and until it becomes a reality).
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 5, 2008 1:31 PM EST up reply actions
You do raise an interesting point
With Seitzer here, Teahen should put up a line something like .375/.550/.725 which is pretty acceptable for a first baseman. So I don’t see what the big deal is.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
I'm sick of your pessimism
.375? Mark is a contact machine. Add Seitzer and he’s at least .390. Watch out George!
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 5, 2008 1:57 PM EST up reply actions
gotta one of Larry Walker's seasons
I could run a SQL, but it would take me a bit to figure out how…
No real reason, but I never liked Walker all that much. Not that he wasn’t a great player…
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 5, 2008 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
Teahen is only half-Canadian
He was born in the States.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
No wonder he's only half great
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 5, 2008 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
Ezekiel 38:15
Says that Gog comes from the north. Guillen came to us from Seattle. So, I’ll go with Guillen = Gog.
Teabag the first baseman and Butler the platooned DH can be the first two of the seven bowls of the Wrath of God.
The cast of the apocalypse is a big’un—come, fill the parts! Come, Scott Elarton! Come, Andy Sisco! Come, Neifi Perez! We will have space for all of you, I promise.
I Read "Come,
Fill the parts" as “Come, fill the pants” at first glance; it made sense, too.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Dec 5, 2008 5:18 PM EST up reply actions
Tremendous
Grass Creek = Plain of Megiddo
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 5, 2008 5:19 PM EST up reply actions
Kelly Johnson on the market for an outfielder
Could KC eat some of the Crisp contract for Johnson or toss DDJ and get Johnson and another reliever for him? 2+ years of service time how long would he be under team control.
I don’t know where he ranks defensively but Atlanta could use a CF and Johnson would be a nice addition at 2b as long as Grudz doesn’t resign.
It takes 46 muscles to frown but only 4 to flip 'em the bird.
Marcels + Chone to the (disputable) rescue?
over 700 ABs/full-time, Marvels sees him as about a +9 run hitter, CHONE has him as a -5 defender.
= +4 runs/10.5 = ~.4 wins above average + .25 for 2B + .2 for NL replacement level = 2.65 WAR * 90% playing time =
~ 2.4 WAR player
he’s going to be 27 in February.
Not bad at all for the minimum. Probably a better player than Crisp, not quite as good as DDJ. Definitely better than Teahen.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 5, 2008 2:15 PM EST up reply actions
If you could trade him for Crisp and eat a little of the salary or not that would be a great move IMO. I doubt they take Teahen for him because of their need for CF. I wouldn’t trade DDJ for him unless you could get some kind of additional prospect.
It takes 46 muscles to frown but only 4 to flip 'em the bird.
I don't think he's serious, is he?
(you know those guys start rumors just to start them, right?)
Don't forget to send your broken maples to the US Forest Service.
He's a rumor monger
Some of the rumors he spreads are true, many are not. We’ll see.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 5, 2008 2:24 PM EST up reply actions
We should have a good line from the DH spot next year.
Butler had an OPS of 985 against Lefties last year.
Jacobs had an OPS of 857 against Righties.
As an added bonus neither will have to play defense!
Are you already treating this rumor as fact?
Or is this just speculative? Or if you read a rumor about the Royals doing something stupid do you assume that it must be true?
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 5, 2008 2:51 PM EST up reply actions
Or if you read a rumor about the Royals doing something stupid do you assume that it must be true?
That rationale has not failed me in the past.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
There was a Greinke-for-Francoeur rumor out there...
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 5, 2008 3:12 PM EST up reply actions
That's a lot of words to ask the same question three different ways.
Nice job. I think it’s a rumor that may or may not be true. I was simply stating that if it was true we would have a nice line from the DH spot.
And I'm simply stating that the sky hasn't fallen
There is merely a rumor that God is considering letting the sky fall. Important difference.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 5, 2008 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
I never said the sky was falling so I'm not sure why your pointing this out to me.
What I said was that those two would hit well as a DH tandem next year if that is how they’re used.
For whatever reason, you have chosen to eschew the conditional tense in this thread
In this thread, you have said that Butler is a former top prospect who is now reduced to the lesser part of a DH platoon, and that this means the Royals will have good stats from the DH position. Now you may have meant these as if-then statements, but you didn’t say that.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 5, 2008 3:05 PM EST up reply actions
I assumed you realized rumors weren't facts.
I will add an “if this rumor becomes fact” statement before all of my comments so you don’t get so confused next time.
If you actually say what you mean
…then I probably won’t get so confused next time.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 5, 2008 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
AAAHHH!
I pray to any and all of our gods this is dead wrong. But, if true, I’m just amazed, flabbergasted, and completely frustrated that the Royals continue to see Teahen as some kind of great player yet to be born. What the hell? I don’t get it at all, must be grit.
To me Teahen is like when you step in something in the front lawn and can’t get it sufficiently scraped off and you keep getting little whiffs and gag reflexes all day long. Please Dayton, clean off our shoes already.
Defense
One of the reasons that Teahen at 1B doesn’t make sense is because it completely takes away his defensive pluses in the OF. So at 1B, he doesn’t hit well enough for the position, nor play defense particularly well (he’d be ok there after a while, but that’s about it). But you act like he’s just awful as a baseball player, and that is not true at all. His usually fairly high OBP mixed with his good corner OF defense makes him a pretty good overall OFer. Defense counts. Preventing runs from being scored counts as much as causing runs to be scored.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 5, 2008 3:35 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, but Jose Guillen causes more runs to be scored
on both sides of the ball!
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 5, 2008 3:36 PM EST up reply actions
ok
NY Royal, if you’re referring to me as undervaluing Teahen, I guess I can concede that. I’ll admit to complete frustration with him and more than ready to give up. I just get tired of reading all kinds of things about how he’s going to improve (but doesn’t) or how he’s going to “return to how he was” which to me means about a 1 month instance 4 years or so ago. A fluke. He just doesn’t have it in him. Let’s try to pull the wool over someone’s eyes and get a little bit of new and different value out of him. He’s not ever going to be a big, productive player here or anywhere, I don’t think.
Also, I don’t buy the argument that he can’t hit when he plays outfield, but if we move him to third he’ll suddenly be George Brett – or better!
Is he going to be a star? Almost certainly not
but I think he looks like a guy who can be an average player. I won’t link to the total value study of curent KC outfiedlers I did again, but here, in qualitative terms, is what I get for Teahen the last four years. Keep in mind these are all pre-“peak” (27-29) years. No cherry-picking, this is year by year)
2005: terrible (was meant to start the year in the minors, Truby got hurt)
2006: very good, above average (excellent offense, problematic defense at 3B)
2007: very good, above average, although it wasn’t noticed (decent OBP, lower power, very good OF defense)
2008: bad year — still better than Jose Guillen (terrible offense, defense between average and below average while being jerked between four different positions)
He’ll be 27 next year. More recent performance counts more, but overall, you’ve got a guy who int he last three years has been above average more than below, although his below was pretty bad. He has a chance to be an average player — and that is very valuable in baseball. The FA market value of an average player is about $10M in 2009.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 5, 2008 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
’07 was hardly average on offense. His OPS was 116 out of 163 qualified hitters and 41 out of 55 OF qualifiers. I think you are stretching offensively we have analyzed it he is a bench player at all turns yet KC continues to talk about him as a starter.
It takes 46 muscles to frown but only 4 to flip 'em the bird.
He's not just looking at offense
He’s looking at the player’s contribution as a whole (hitting, base running, defense). When you take his defense into account, he was at least slightly above average in 2007 (even though the OPS was not high, it was a OBP-heavy OPS, and the defense was very good).
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 5, 2008 4:15 PM EST up reply actions
Are you guys weighing defense as 1 for 1 with offense
in terms of importance?
It takes 46 muscles to frown but only 4 to flip 'em the bird.
d_f is, I'm sure, going by his calculations of Teahens WAR over those years
Wins Above Replacement player. It takes into account both the the runs he’s helped to score on offense and the runs he’s saved on defense. And yes RS and RA are essentially of equal value and importance.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 5, 2008 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
What did his 2008 defensive numbers look like?
I thought he was below average in 2008 and above for 2007. I’m not sure we know for sure how good he is defensively with that discrpeancy. Some of the bannana routes he runs in the outfield give me pause to how good he truly is defensively.
That's a fair point
The numbers were good in 2007 and worse in 2008. (But I don’t have access to UZR, Dewan and PMR for Teahen in both years…I think d_f has them). I think both at LF and RF he got better as he played in those positions more. Overall, I think he’s a plus corner OFer on defense.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 5, 2008 4:31 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, that's why I'm ambiguous on it above
GB said Dewan’s had him at -11 plays (about -9 runs) int he OF in 2008. But PMR had him slightly above average in right ($#@!!). In my spreadsheet I just put him (and DDJ because of the LF/CF differences) at 0 for 2008. That’s probably a bit generous, but I don’t have his numbers for 1B or 3B in 2008, either. But even with the -11 plays, he’s around replacement level.
I know not everyone likes CHONE’s defensive projections, and there are good reasons to take them with a grain of salt — especially for guys who’ve moved around so much the last few years as Teahen, but he does incorporate a lot of regression and multiple data sources from the last four years. He has Teahen at +5 in the Corner OF.
In fact, I just took the Marcels RV/700 and added in Chone’s defensive numbesr for a full-year, then prorated for 90% playing time. With the usual caveats about the built-in limits of Marcels, here are the the projected WARs I got for guys I what I’m guessing is their primary positions for 2009:
(roughly 0=replacement level suckhead who should be in the minors or out of the league, 1 = bench/platoon guy, 2 = average, 3 = above average, 4 = very good 5 = monster player 6 = godlike)
Buck 1.7
Olivo 1.5
Butler 1.3
Jacobs 0.7
Gload 0.0
Shealy 1.1
Callaspo 0.9
Grudz 2.1
German 0.8
Aviles 4.5
Gordon 2.2
Guillen 0.2
DDJ 2.6
Crisp 1.7
Teahen 2.0
Gathright 1.1
MITCH 1.5
TPJ -0.4
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 5, 2008 4:41 PM EST up reply actions
btw
I did the catchers at 75% playing time, and didn’t use defensive numbers, since CHONE doesn’ t have them (wisely), and I haven’t read up on measuring catcher defense
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 5, 2008 4:46 PM EST up reply actions
and yes
I think some of those numbers are between off (e.g, Gordon) and ridiculously off (Aviles). That’s because Marcel doesn’t know about minor league track records.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 5, 2008 4:47 PM EST up reply actions
Are assists counted for in these metrics?
I know runners challenged Teahen’s arm early and often in 2007 before they learned he had a pretty good arm. I’m wondering if that might account for at least a small portion of the regression between 2008 and 2007.
likely
THT has his arm at about +5 runs in 2007 (look at my spreadsheet!). 2008 arm ratings aren’t out yet Still, UZR (which doesn’t take arms into account) had him at +10 rangewise in 2007.
I think CHONE deals almost completely with range and fielding, not with arms.
So, yeah, I’m not saying he’s necessarily Franklin Gutierrez or anything out there, but despite having a down year this year, the stats from last year and at least some (PMR) from this year indicate to me he is more likely above-average than below average, for sure. He’s been moved around so much that who knows.
He’s not a star, overall, and never will be, probably, But there are some indications that being a league-average player is a realistic future. The Royals could use guys like that.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 5, 2008 4:54 PM EST up reply actions
and he's been above average overall in the recent past
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 5, 2008 4:54 PM EST up reply actions
Thanks. I checked the Dewan UZR rating for Teahen for 2007...
and it was +5. It looks like it is +10 on your spreadsheet. Is that the metric you used for Teahen for 2007?
UZR+ THT Arms
UZR had him at +10 runs, THT arms at +5.3 or something. Dewan’s incorporates both arm, range, etc.
Fangraphs is going to start publishing UZR. Maybe I’ll subscribe to BJ online next season and average them and do some Inaz-wanna-be total value stat updated monthly for the screaming masses at RR.
That Dewan’s number taken alone, instead of UZR/arms, just doing the math in my head, means Teahen is slightly below average overall in 2007. 1.9 WAR isn’t nearly as good as 2.9, but it’s still close to average — I think some people think he was a lot worse than that.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 5, 2008 5:05 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, Teahen's not my favorite but he's okay.
Not crap, better than Guillen and average in a good year. Thanks for the info! btw here is the link for the site I was looking at that him at +5 for 2007: http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/best_and_worst_of_2007_uzr/
wait... UZR...
shit… that’s the site I’ve been looking at over and over for this stuff… for some reason I got Teahen +10 in my head… D’oh… sorry everyone for the screw-up… I guess Teahen was closer to 2.4 or something in 2007. I’ll go fix it right now…
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 5, 2008 5:15 PM EST up reply actions
OK, fixed it... it should show up in a couple of minutes
sorry everyone, I’m not Mark Teahens mom or anything…
Now I have him at 2.41 WAR for 2007. I was a bit shocked by 2.88… 2.41 is still above average, though. Keep hope alive! a 6 WAR starting OF in 2009!
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 5, 2008 5:18 PM EST up reply actions
yeah
Jose Guillen was slightly worse than that this past season
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 6, 2008 10:59 AM EST up reply actions
djk
you know that Dewan’s and UZR are two different systems, right? John Dewan and the Fielding Bible guys do Dewan’s +/-, and the main ratings are in plays above and below average, using BIS data. UZR is just range, is done by MGL using STATS data, and is in runs above and below average.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 6, 2008 11:01 AM EST up reply actions
You're right that he won't be a star
But there is a large distance between “he’s going to be great!” and “he’s crap the Royals need to scrape off of their collective shoe.” He’s pretty good. He has value. His OF defense makes him considerably more valuable than his offensive stats would lead one to believe. Any talk from the organization that he’s great is the kind of positive PR spin that every organization uses for their players. D_f does a good job of describing how good he’s been overall and year-by-year.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 5, 2008 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
What am I missing here?
can’t find what song this is from
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 5, 2008 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
tremendous
if I got it right
are you kicking me when I’m down?
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 5, 2008 4:42 PM EST up reply actions
Great Don Henley
Album; truly inspired writing.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Dec 5, 2008 5:34 PM EST up reply actions
Cubs
I sure wish some of those Cub trade rumors would come back. Oh, wait a minute, based on the theory that no rumor is good, then I hope we don’t hear anything!
Even if I were to agree Teahen is avg/good, we’re a little overloaded on his position(s) so we might as make a positional adjustment through trading him. That’s the true value of his worth, can we get anything.
Some things will happen for the Royals at the winter meetings this coming week
What these things will be and whether they will be good for the Royals is anybody’s guess. Could involve the Cubs and Teahen.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 5, 2008 4:09 PM EST up reply actions
Don Henley
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 5, 2008 4:12 PM EST up reply actions
I'm actually a moderate Don Henley fan
And I think “I Can’t Stand Still,” “Building the Perfect Beast,” and “The End of the Innocence” was a nice trilogy of albums giving him a decent solo career.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 5, 2008 4:18 PM EST up reply actions
I saw him once in Chicago
He was pretty much by the numbers and seemed more interested in picking which backup singer he was going to sleep with that night.
Out on the road today
I saw a Deadhead sticker on a Cadillac
A little voice inside my head said
don’t look back, you can never look back.
His lyrics almost read like a parody, but he has the gravitas to pull them off when sung (for the most part).
As I Stated
Further up this thread, I always thought this was a particularly inspired album, and his best lyrics outside the Eagles. I was disappointed in “The End Of The Innocence” album, but I still own it just because of BTPB.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Dec 5, 2008 5:40 PM EST up reply actions
but I am a man with a mission
I see these women at the car wash/women at the mall
Little-bitty women, and women who are tall
One of them is perfect and I want her for myself
Never gonna settle for anybody else
Don Henley pulls this off. Now, just for fun, try to imagine these lines coming out of 1980s contemporary Bryan Adams.
"Gonna Run A
Few red lights, grind a few gears,
Start a few fistfights, drink a few beers."
Yeah, Bryan would have sounded ridiculous, but I never for a second considered Adams to be a contemporary of Henley. I did love the “Cuts Like A Knife” video, though.
My favorite Henley lyric is “Paradise”.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Dec 6, 2008 1:10 AM EST up reply actions
Bryan Adams:
still weirdly popular in Canadia
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 6, 2008 11:00 AM EST up reply actions
BA's songs taught me what love really is
true story
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 6, 2008 11:20 AM EST up reply actions
Last I Saw
He was trying to go R&B after the kids stopped buying his albums. He’s not bad at it for a Canuck.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Dec 6, 2008 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
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