Greinke/Francouer Swap?
by Nighthawk at the Diner on Dec 9, 2008 10:33 AM EST
67 comments
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/12/royals-braves-t.html
Dearest God above...........Nooooooooo! As the rock solid and well respected MLB Trade Rumours.com points out, this seems highly unlikely. However, it still scares the beejesus outta me and Soren Petro. MLBtraderumours posits that the Braves would likely need to add pitching to balance out this deal and make it more palatable for the tin eared palate of Dayton Moore (Dinty More?), but unless the arms added include Tom Smoltz vintage 1998, then I'm going to piss and moan until I'm powder blue in the face.
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Huh, what?
I’m going to piss and moan until I’m powder blue in the face.
I don’t think you really want that…..
Let's Go Blues!
by powderbluesfor08 on Dec 9, 2008 10:49 AM EST reply actions
No way.
You’re giving the idea of a “rumor” a bad name. Don’t attribute this silliness to Dayton—-at least not for one underachieving MLB outfielder. – TL
[In 2008] Kila Ka’aihue had the best on-base percentage of any hitter in the minor leagues. - Joe Posnanski, 11/9/2008 ... Ergo, let's give him a shot at first base in KC in 2009.
Please,
Dayton Moore would not do this trade if he were lobotomized, shot up with meth, and put LSD directly on his eyeballs.
Space.
It's a problem we face.
So we never go anywhere.
We just stay in one place.
According To The Boston Globe
It’s being seriously discussed.
It’s crap like this that made me largely apathetic about the Royals…I had hope for Dayton Moore as a GM, but signing Jose Guillen, trading for Mike Jacobs and now this (if it really is true) means he’s just as clueless as every other GM that’s come through here since Schuerholz left. The guy was right to invest money in scouting and infrastructure, but that’s not going to do much to help the club if he’s trading off promising young pitchers for outfielders who can’t even figure out the strike zone. Francouer is not the kind of player this team wants or needs.
The Chiefs should win 5 to 6 games this year and no less than 4 for this season to be considered progress in any way. If he can't win at least 9 games next season, Herm's a joke.
It hasn't happened yet
so it’s not helpful to act like it has.
This is a wild rumor being discussed in Boston, of all places. I’m sure they’re really up on what KC is doing in the northeast.
Yea, let's calm down
A stupid rumor fabricated reported by the Boston Globe doesn’t really mean much until it becomes real.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
Moore Shot It Down Today
The Chiefs should win 5 to 6 games this year and no less than 4 for this season to be considered progress in any way. If he can't win at least 9 games next season, Herm's a joke.
If this happens
I will most likely go into a serious winter depression…Dayton I really don’t want to have to become a Nationals fan ( or a National League fan for that matter )
There are plenty of guys that I would give up for Frenchy, Gload/TPJ/JoGui/Yabuta, but come on ZG?
Mike Jacobs you're 2009 AL MVP
Really?
“As the rock solid and well respected MLB Trade Rumours.com points out…”
I don’t comment on here, but I read almost everything, and I also read MLB Trade Rumors. How many people really think this is a respected website?
Yes, it does link to newspapers and other sources, but, I don’t think that makes it respected.
I hope I don’t have to eat my words for this if something crazy happens.
I think NATD was being sarcastic
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 9, 2008 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
You are correct you ole Debbil
And to think I thought the morphing of John Smoltz and Tom Glavine into the mythical “John Smoltz” was too subtle?
by Nighthawk at the Diner on Dec 9, 2008 12:17 PM EST up reply actions
Guys, let's not create a new thread for every rumor
That’s what the Winter Meetings open threads are for. The Day Two thread is up.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
I guess I'd better delete my 20 paragraph Farnsworth post
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 9, 2008 12:08 PM EST up reply actions
Well, I created a...
…fanshot about Tightpants because I wanted to note his hometown. …I can’t believe no one wants to comment on a post with the word “tightpants” in the title. ;) – TL
[In 2008] Kila Ka’aihue had the best on-base percentage of any hitter in the minor leagues. - Joe Posnanski, 11/9/2008 ... Ergo, let's give him a shot at first base in KC in 2009.
Sorry, not a joke at your expense, just making fun of my own wordiness on small topics
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 9, 2008 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
No problem.
I was indirectly responding to NYRoyal. No biggie either way. – TL
[In 2008] Kila Ka’aihue had the best on-base percentage of any hitter in the minor leagues. - Joe Posnanski, 11/9/2008 ... Ergo, let's give him a shot at first base in KC in 2009.
We're just trying to avoid discussing the same thing in five different places
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
I think we should move this discussion onto the "vestigal FanPosts" thread
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 9, 2008 12:22 PM EST up reply actions
Organising meaningless blog palaver?
What do you do for a living? Herd cats? Why you are trying to avoid discussing the same thing in 5 different places, I’m busy trying to get right with GOD.
by Nighthawk at the Diner on Dec 9, 2008 12:20 PM EST reply actions
Just doing what a moderator does
In this case, I’m following the mandates from the Boss. That’s what I get paid for (and my payment is a sense of self satisfaction).
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
Dayton works the phones every day
His infatuation with ex-Braves became well-documented two years ago. Perhaps it speaks volumes that these rumors are even surfacing. Jason Marquis for Dave DeJesus and now this? Perhaps other G.M.’s are seeing that his opinions of anything Brave is a bit irrational.
I think that speculation is a bit silly
Perhaps other G.M.’s are seeing that his opinions of anything Brave is a bit irrational.
Because he’s made a lot of bad trades where he really got screwed in his pursuit of former Braves? Such as?
The vast majority of Moore’s moves involving ex-Braves have been very, very minor moves involving uninteresting players for very minor roles (Brayan Pena, anyone?). Counting up the number of former Braves that Moore has acquired is a fetish/obsession of Royals fans, and Royals fans only.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
Yeah, I don't get...
…the comment by Royals Nation. GMDM’s pursuit of ex-Braves is obviously there but actually limited. How many of them are on our MLB roster? Only TPJ, yes? Anyway…And where did the DeJesus/Marquis rumor come from? – TL
[In 2008] Kila Ka’aihue had the best on-base percentage of any hitter in the minor leagues. - Joe Posnanski, 11/9/2008 ... Ergo, let's give him a shot at first base in KC in 2009.
But Dayton Moore once picked up Roman Colon on a waiver claim!
His obsession with former Braves is consuming him!!!!!!!!!!111
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
I forgot about...
…Davies. – TL
[In 2008] Kila Ka’aihue had the best on-base percentage of any hitter in the minor leagues. - Joe Posnanski, 11/9/2008 ... Ergo, let's give him a shot at first base in KC in 2009.
maybe he just has a thing for Penas
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 9, 2008 1:43 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
My point was more of a half-hearted suggestion, I'll admit
However, I will say that many of his moves, such as with the Penas and with Davies, has played or might play significant dividends down the road. He has picked up many Minor League filler-players, as well. Many of his acquisitions of ex-Braves prevent other, better moves from taking place. I guess part of what I’m suggesting is that it appears half-hearted, on the surface, to seek as many ex-Brave players, as well. Couldn’t time be consumed to look at the entire field of Major and Minor League players available? Surely, there are better players out there. And what if better moves could have been made?
by Royals Nation on Dec 9, 2008 2:14 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Many of his acquisitions of ex-Braves prevent other, better moves from taking place.
Such as? You could argue that the TPJ acquisition kept them from acquiring another SS at the time. Anything else? He did hire an assistant groundskeeper who used to live in Atlanta for a few months. I guess that could have kept him from hiring a better groundskeeper.
I guess part of what I’m suggesting is that it appears half-hearted, on the surface, to seek as many ex-Brave players, as well. Couldn’t time be consumed to look at the entire field of Major and Minor League players available? Surely, there are better players out there. And what if better moves could have been made?
The assertion that he’s trying to acquire as many ex-Braves as possible is silly and baseless. Again, look at the former Braves he has acquired. Mostly they were waiver claims and minor league contracts. Those very minor moves don’t sound like an obsession to acquire as many former Braves as possible. And of course he’s looking at the entire field of major and minor league players. Do you think for a second that he’s only looking at the Braves? There are Braves players and prospects that he knows about from his time there. There are some that he likes. That’s it.
Basically some Royals fans have taken a handful of minor moves and turned it into a big deal. It’s called making an issue out of a non-issue. The obsession with ex-Braves is a phenomenon among Royals fans only.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
I have no desire to enter this debate
but it seems to be a phenomenon that includes at least one fairly-well known Braves fan and analyst as well.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 9, 2008 2:32 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, we've discussed Mr. Gray
Since moving to the Royals he’s acquired former Braves products Odalis Perez, Tony Pena, Kyle Davies, Brayan Pena, and Horacio Ramirez.
And those guys have really hurt the Royals….not.
Moore’s obsession with the Braves is hurting the Royals…except that it isn’t. We might as well discuss his non-obsession with acquiring devout Christians.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
wow
Davies 4 ERA really killed us this year.
FIRE DM NOW!!!!
Founder of the Johnny Giavotella fan club.
I know
Davies was average… you know where a team full of average guys will get you? 81-81. The Royals need to demand more than mediocrity.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 9, 2008 2:56 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
At least say [sarcasm font] or something like that...not everyone sees what should be obvious sarcasm
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
/sarc
Happy?
/sarc
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 9, 2008 3:08 PM EST up reply actions
Very
The problem is that I’ve heard/read many Royals fans that if the Royals want to be good, we can’t accept mediocrity and need to cast off mediocre players like Davies, Teahen, etc. Dare to be great! These people are oddly serious.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
One of the things that consistently happens
with bad teams is that they jettison useful players….and replace them with terrible ones. Hypothetically, say we ditched DDJ for MITCH…. :P
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
or Ramon Ramirez for Professor Farnsworth
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 10, 2008 1:19 AM EST up reply actions
If the Royals had traded R. Ramirez for Farnsworth, that would have been criminally incompentent
Thankfully they didn’t.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
I was and remain supportive of that trade
I’ve voiced my optimism regarding that trade on numerous occasion. However, it’s not just Davies we’re talking about, here. Come on, doublestix….you know that.
by Royals Nation on Dec 9, 2008 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
Ex-Braves Moore has acquired
Brayan Pena
Tony Pena
Kyle Davies
Ron Mahay
Matt Wright
Cory Aldridge
Jairo Cuevas
Jose Capellan
Horacio Ramirez
Odalis Perez
John Thomson
Adam Bernero
Damon Hollins
Roman Colon
Cody Clark
Bill McCarthy
Richard Lewis
Jason Shiell
Ken Ray
Onil Joseph
Arthur Santos
Ovandy Suero
…Not to mention numerous members of the organization – executives, scouts, and coaches.
….Mostly insignificant moves, but aren’t they all? And you’re misrepresenting my argument by stating that Moore is actively trying diligently to purposely acquire as many ex-Braves as possible!!!!!! That’s ridiculous; I never asserted such notion. I’m saying the time and energy should be delved into non-bias; looking at the entire field of players with an open mind. Some of these moves have impacted us at the MLB level. Marquis for DeJesus? Francoeur for Greinke? Both of these rumors sound ridiculous, and they may have no merit whatsoever. But perhaps some form of those trades have taken place. Who knows? Moore needs to stop being so biased against ex-Brave players.
by Royals Nation on Dec 9, 2008 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
They kept us from making tremendous, wonderful moves instead!
Because Moore doesn’t seriously consider non-Braves players. What support do I have for that? None. But you know Moore spent weeks considering those waiver claims, focusing on that and nothing else.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
ha
It’d be one thing if those moves hurt the team…but only ONE did…and now it seems were moved on from him. In fact I’d argue most of those pickups were actually quite worthwhile…for one reason or another.
Founder of the Johnny Giavotella fan club.
Exactly
I’d like Royal Nation to go through those names one-by-one and talk about how it hurt or helped the organization. Sure we don’t know if any of those moves kept us from doing something else, but that can be said about every single move any GM ever does.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
See below
But what about future moves? What about the moves that haven’t taken place? Aldridge, Colon, etc. etc. don’t matter. Most player personnel moves ultimately don’t matter, when you think about it (given the disparity of MiLB and MLB players, and the fact that 95-98% of draft ed players never make it). For every 48 Roman Colons, there are 2 Tony Penas and Kyle Davies’s. The impact will grow more and more significant.
by Royals Nation on Dec 9, 2008 3:34 PM EST up reply actions
The impact will grow more and more significant.
Ok. And who do you think will have more impact on the Royals going forward: TPJ or Davies? You think TPJ is going to get a lot of PT from now on? Or do you think Davies and Mahay will get a lot more. The impact of current players will go on, and in a predominantly positive direction.
Now what about other moves Moore might make in the future? Who knows? We’ll see when what they are when/if they happen.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
Just as an aside
While TPJ hurt the team this year, he was actually just below average, all things considered, last year. Now, if Eric Cordier goes on to become a #4 starter for a year and a half, that might be bad down the line. But I’d say that pays off, especially at $400,000, given that no one else in the organization could play SS at the MLB level in 2007.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 9, 2008 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
lol
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 11, 2008 8:34 AM EST up reply actions
It's been pretty neutral, overall
Pena’s damage probably overrules Davies’ advantages, but only narrowly, I think. And Mahay probably makes up for it…that one was a gimme, since he was acquired by the Braves under Frank Wren.
Anyway, it could cloud a) future moves, b) distribution of playing time, and c) time & energy devoted to the entire field of players, rather than ex-Braves.
by Royals Nation on Dec 9, 2008 3:27 PM EST up reply actions
What a completely meaningless list
And you’re misrepresenting my argument by stating that Moore is actively trying diligently to purposely acquire as many ex-Braves as possible!!!!!! That’s ridiculous; I never asserted such notion
Forgive me for not being able to understand the following that you wrote:
I guess part of what I’m suggesting is that it appears half-hearted, on the surface, to seek as many ex-Brave players, as well.
I guess I thought the incomplete comparative of “as many” referred to “as many as possible.”
I’m saying the time and energy should be delved into non-bias; looking at the entire field of players with an open mind.
You don’t have the first clue how much time and attention Moore is devoting to current or former Braves as opposed to the rest of professional baseball. He already knows a lot about these current/former Braves, so I don’t think he has to spend a hell of a lot of time “delving into them.” You assume bizarrely that he’s focusing on Braves players and giving short shrift to the rest of baseball. I see no support for this.
Some of these moves have impacted us at the MLB level.
Indeed. And more positively than negatively.
Marquis for DeJesus? Francoeur for Greinke? Both of these rumors sound ridiculous, and they may have no merit whatsoever. But perhaps some form of those trades have taken place. Who knows?
What in the world are you talking about? These are rumors which you admit may have no foundation. And yet Moore deserves criticism for these rumors? Perhaps some form of those trades has taken place? What the hell does that mean? Have either of those trades happened? Not that I know of. Do you know something I don’t?
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
We could legitimize Royals Nation's belief...
…by enlarging our ex-Braves analysis to degrees of separation—-allowing for 2-degrees removed as significant. We might find other GMs obsessed with ex-Braves in the process. … I’d like to see Chipper Jones become an ex-Brave. I’d take that garbage in a heartbeat. ;) – TL
[In 2008] Kila Ka’aihue had the best on-base percentage of any hitter in the minor leagues. - Joe Posnanski, 11/9/2008 ... Ergo, let's give him a shot at first base in KC in 2009.
Is there going to be a Hooters in the renovated K?
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 9, 2008 2:54 PM EST up reply actions
Chipper Jones
For some reason, he’s just always rubbed me the wrong way. But he is an awesome player who continues to defy Father time. I think he put up about 7-8 WAR this year. Yeah, he better than just about every position player in the non-Pujols division.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 9, 2008 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
Again, I don't think Moore's acquisition of ex-Braves
….is really that significant. However, it could paint a larger picture and has already paid some negative dividends at the MLB level. It also prevents other moves from taking place. Moore accepted Davies for Dotel two Julys ago. What if he passed up a better offer? What if such an “ultimatum” happened on other occasions? What if we’re forced to call up that ex-Brave in September when three relievers go down? What if Kyle Davies is kept in the rotation too long after sucking in 2010, and that deserving Omaha Royal prospect’s debut gets stalled? The bias can manifest in subtle ways.
by Royals Nation on Dec 9, 2008 3:16 PM EST up reply actions
It also prevents other moves from taking place. Moore accepted Davies for Dotel two Julys ago. What if he passed up a better offer? What if such an "ultimatum" happened on other occasions?
When you have proof that such has happened, I’ll be happy to consider it. Guessing isn’t worth much.
What if we’re forced to call up that ex-Brave in September when three relievers go down?
Like H. Ramirez? Boy that would be awful! Just because the person is an ex-Brave doesn’t mean he’s not the best person to acquire at the time. So maybe it isn’t bad that this hypothetical player is a former Brave.
The bias can manifest in subtle ways.
I see a lot of speculation and guesswork here and nothing else. If the fact that a guy is a current or former Brave blinds Moore and is a real obsession for him, that is probably a problem. I see no real evidence that such is the case. None. Your list isn’t even half-assed proof of such a single-minded obsession.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
Polarization
You’re polarizing yourself and me by claiming that I am construing that Moore is actively seeking as many ex-Braves as possible and how damaging it is to our organization. Of course I don’t have any definitive proof. It’s speculation. That isn’t my point. I think a legitimate argument could be made that it could impact Moore’s bias in the player pool. Just my opinion, man.
by Royals Nation on Dec 9, 2008 3:29 PM EST up reply actions
"It could"
Sure, I’ll agree with that. Anything is possible.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
There are real, serious things that one can criticize Dayton Moore about
This includes but is not limited to his big weakness in being able to evaluate and acquire good position players. When you’ve got significant, clear things like that, why waste your time with non-issues like acquiring former Braves or Christians or meaningless crap like that which has not hurt the Royals in any way?
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
because you believe in those things?
Don't forget to send your broken maples to the US Forest Service.
not to mention the importance of
A UNIFIED CLUBHOUSE! :)
Don't forget to send your broken maples to the US Forest Service.
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