Spring training stats are meaningless
Since the spring training games are about to start, I thought I'd discuss the relevance of spring training statistics. My contention is that they are meaningless. I suppose it would be more accurate to say we don't know how meaningful any spring training stat is. The real point is that they are completely unreliable and don't really tell us anything about the player or how well he'll do in the regular season for the following reasons:
- Sample size. Every player's official spring training stats represent a very small sample size. For starting pitchers, this means 15-25 IP. For relievers, 5-15 IP (or less). For position players, this means 40-70 AB (regulars) and even less for backups. Actual spring training "A games" are only a small part of the work players do in spring training. There are also "B games," minor league games, simulated games and of course all of the practices and workouts.
- Uneven competition. There is a wide variety of talent in spring training. A player will end up facing some complete scrubs, some ok minor leaguers, some decent major leaguers and some great major leaguers. When looking at a player's spring training stats, you never know if he faced a disproportionate number of good or bad players. The level of competition changes throughout spring training. There are more bad players early in spring training and they are weeded out as spring training progresses. Also, early in spring training, the pitchers are usually said to be ahead of the hitters. So spring training stats also can reflect when a player got his playing time and thus, the quality of players he played against.
- Unreal play. Not every player in spring training is always playing as if it were a real game. And I'm not just talking about the veterans who cruise through spring training and don't give 100% because they know they have a starting spot locked up. There are also many games throughout spring training when pitchers are working on particular pitches, so they throw almost all fastballs, or don't throw one of their breaking pitches to decrease strain on their arms. Position players also might be working on contact in some games, or bunting or some other particular skill. All of these things are done to work on one element of a player's game without regard to actual game outcome or the player's stats.
- Rarefied air. For a variety of reasons, the ball carries very well in Arizona. That can pump up power numbers and hurt pitching stats.
Brian Bannister 2007
ST - 10.03 ERA
RS - 3.87 ERA
Gil Meche 2007
ST - 7.31 ERA
RS - 3.67 ERA
Ryan Braun 2007
ST - 3.48 ERA
RS - 6.64 ERA
Jason Standridge 2007
ST - 4.35 ERA
RS - 8.22 ERA
Denny Bautista 2006
ST - 3.00 ERA
RS - 5.62 ERA
Mike Wood 2006
ST - 2.50 ERA
RS - 5.71 ERA
Ambiorix Burgos 2006
ST - 3.46 ERA
RS - 5.52 ERA
Steve Andrade
ST - 1.64 ERA
RS - 9.64 ERA
J.P. Howell 2006
ST - 4.00 ERA
RS - 5.10 ERA
Mark Teahen 2007
ST - 329/385/557
RS - 285/353/410
Ross Gload 2007
ST - 393/424/643
RS - 288/318/441
Fernando Cortez 2007
ST - 429/500/464
RS - 286/333/357
Alex Gordon 2007
ST - 317/419/556
RS - 247/314/411
Mark Grudzielanek 2007
ST - 286/333/286
RS - 302/346/426
Angel Berroa 2006
ST - 439/439/684
RS - 234/259/333
Doug Mientkiewicz 2006
ST - 431/500/627
RS - 283/359/411
John Buck 2006
ST - 128/163/234
RS - 245/306/396
Joe McEwing 2006
ST - 436/500/667
RS - 000/000/000 (6 ab)
Matt Stairs 2006
ST - 132/214/132
RS - 261/352/429
You can see many huge differences from spring training to the regular season. Sometimes they were much better in spring training and sometimes they were much worse. And this is the whole point with spring training stats. Sometimes they will be indicative of what the player does in the regular season. But often they will differ greatly. You just never know.
And yet, fans on this site and all over the country will say throughout March that Player X should make the team, or be a starter or make the rotation or be traded or released because of his spring stats. That makes no sense to me. Spring training stats aren't good or reliable evidence of anything. So, how should roster decisions be made going into the regular season? As I said above, A games represent a small percentage of spring training work. An organization should (and does) make its personnel decisions based on what the players do in all kinds of spring training games, as well as how they have looked all spring long in practices and workouts. And, of course, performance in prior years is an extremely important element in evaluating these players. I'm all for evaluating players based on performance more than simply tools or skills, but there just isn't enough reliably measureable performance in spring training for us to just go by the stats.
So, let's have a fun spring training and hope no one gets hurt. But let's not hang our hats on spring training stats. (rhyme unintended)
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32 comments
Comments
Agreed
by RoyalsRetro on Feb 27, 2008 1:24 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I would also mention...
by MooseTacos25 on Feb 27, 2008 1:39 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Definitely
by NYRoyal on Feb 27, 2008 1:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Haha...
by MooseTacos25 on Feb 27, 2008 1:52 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
agreed +1000000000000000
by DC Royal on Feb 27, 2008 2:04 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
i agree...
Shouldn't hang you're hat on ST...but god damn am I excited. It's about TIME!
by doublestix on Feb 27, 2008 2:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not saying everyone dosn't know this
The key, in my mind, is to utilize a more tools oriented evaluation. It is similar to prospect evaluation: evaluate the tools that translate best into major league success.
If Huber's bat looks better than Shealy's, his swing more compact and quicker, and he hits .200 to Shealy's .300 in 50 AB, then I'd contend you take Huber (if all that is holding Huber back is getting good cuts against "MLB" pitching).
Then again, I'm not saying anything you don't already know. Tools/scouting when combined with statistics is the way good GMs evaluate players.
by ajblobaum on Feb 27, 2008 2:38 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Comfort
- How comfortable does Butler look at 1B
- How bout Teahen in LF as opposed to RF
- Does Hoch look comfortable on the mound facing live batters
- Can Buck find an approach at the plate he's comfortable with again.
by MileHighKCfan on Feb 27, 2008 2:49 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
And yet
by NYRoyal on Feb 27, 2008 3:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
this is what I will look at...
Oh...I remember Gordon looking great...I hope he gets away from his ARod/Ankiel/Knoblauch overthinking phase...read the KC Star the other day and it scared me that Gordon was an overthinker...I was wrong about that kid and its kind of scary...hope he tunes in his inner meathead and busts loose
so I don't use ST stats at all, just like I don't give an EFF about anyone teams' record, because a good record normally just means that a team has too many guys playing for too much too early, which is a bad, bad sign (muy muy mal hombres)...so lets hope Greinke has pop on his fastball everytime he throws it...lets see how fluid Butts is at first...lets watch MLB's most underrated defensive OF bust out assists from LF...and take a chill pill and wait for the real deal
by PhattStairs on Feb 28, 2008 12:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Nice Farva reference!
by RoyalsRetro on Feb 28, 2008 11:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Spring traning stats are meaningless
by RoyalsRetro on Feb 27, 2008 3:46 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Couldn't agree more
by ajblobaum on Feb 27, 2008 4:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And the beat goes on...
by grudz69 on Feb 27, 2008 6:12 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
It is relevant
by NYRoyal on Feb 27, 2008 6:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i love the rhyme at the end
by royalsreview on Feb 27, 2008 7:58 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I only trust....
by NYRoyal on Feb 27, 2008 9:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
this is a very marketable statement...
by PhattStairs on Feb 28, 2008 12:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
the statement I meant was...
by PhattStairs on Feb 28, 2008 12:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
of course...
by PhattStairs on Feb 28, 2008 12:56 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
sounds sort of Schoolhouse Rock-ish
by marbotty on Feb 28, 2008 3:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Spring Training means little to nothing
by NHZ on Feb 28, 2008 12:26 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Wrong Stat Selection
With that said, I have no proof of this as I have not looked these things up as NYRoyal has done in his post. I just think, if I were to look at Spring Training stats, I would look at something other than batting average and era.
by BlownSave on Feb 28, 2008 1:22 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
A few things
Second, ERA certainly isn't the best stat to use. But I wanted to use something quick, easy and something everyone could understand and relate to.
Third, given the wide variance that players have between spring training and the regular season in every stat I've looked at, I don't think there is any reason to believe that it would be different for a few well chosen peripherals.
To me, one ought to look at K/AB and K/BB for hitters . For pitchers, one should look at K/9, K/BB and first pitch strike percentage. I think these are the things that would dictate future success for that season.
Why? And do you have any support for this?
by NYRoyal on Feb 28, 2008 3:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thoughts
My thought is a hitter's success is dictated by how well one can see the ball. I think a lot of guys can see the ball very well, but hit into a lot of bad luck during Spring Training, whereas a guy could hit .400 with a .750 slugging percentage but strike out half the time because he's going all or nothing in order to make the team or an impression. I suppose what I am looking for in a hitter is a guy who puts the ball in play frequently and can get on base.
As for pitchers, I think K/9, K/BB and first pitch strike percentage best reflects one's ability to control the strike zone and what kind of dominance he has over the strike zone (his "stuff"). My understand is there is research that shows pitchers who frequently get out ahead of batters are more likely to be successful than ones who are constantly working from behind. I think K/9 is a good way to show long term success and K/BB shows command.
Again, I have no statistical proof of this as it relates to Spring Training. It's always been the way I thought about things (especially prospects). But I'll take this as a challenge to look into it. I did like your post though as I do many of your other posts.
by BlownSave on Feb 29, 2008 1:16 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
remember when Gotay hit 7 hrs that one year?
by marbotty on Feb 28, 2008 3:28 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Gotay has some holes in his game
- Can't hit lefties to save his life. His platoon differential is gigantic.
- His defense is atrocious.
- Very poor plate discipline.
by NYRoyal on Feb 28, 2008 3:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good Article
It's about using Observational Analysis to go with all the stats and such that many of you really follow well. Sounds like a lot of work, but also sounds like it would be the most precise data you could get if performed correctly. Take a peek at it and let me know what your take is on it. I'm curious what you statheads think.
by MileHighKCfan on Feb 28, 2008 10:57 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Here's what you don't get about this fanbase
In order to trust a franchise to see the truth thru the stats during spring training, said franchise needs to have been good at its player evaluations in the past. This particular franchise has been woefully lacking in that regard for the last decade and a half or so.
That is why, until the new regime gains their trust, you will continue to see, what on the surface may seem to be irrational, criticisms of franchise roster decisions.
We are in Missouri, and Royals fans, while optimistic about the new regime, definitely still embrace the "Show Me" mantra when it comes to Royals upper management.
by loyal2s dad on Feb 28, 2008 11:55 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Trust
Criticism of acquisitions, trades, call ups, send downs and every other kind of personnel move is certainly reasonable. I just think it should be based on good, meaningful information. And spring training stats are not good, meaningful or reliable information.
by NYRoyal on Feb 28, 2008 2:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So are we all in agreement?
by RoyalsRetro on Feb 28, 2008 12:45 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
















