Khalil Greene
by eboston on Apr 30, 2008 2:12 PM EDT
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PrintAccording to MLBTradeRumors the Padres are looking for a solution to CF and it talks about a Greene for Felix Pie trade. (I would assume that more would be involved here) My question is would a DeJesus + Prospect offer interest the Padres and be able to land Greene? I know I would love to have him at short instead of Pena. I like seeing Callaspo at short over Pena, but if we were able to land Greene and use Callaspo as a back up for this season that would be fine. It does talk about how short would be a hole for the Padres if they moved Greene so maybe a DDJ + Pena type offer would work. What does everyone else think?
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Would you even need to throw in a prospect?
I would think that DJ for Greene straight up seems kinda fair. Maybe DJ + Blake Wood for Khalil Greene and a C grade prospect?
I love DJ, but I’d rather upgrade the shortstop position. Gathright can handle CF in the interim, and I think you could probably find a long-term replacement in CF more easily than you could find a good replacement at SS.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
Which brings up the question
of whether Teahen might be able to play CF full-time, given that it increasingly looks like his bat “fits” better there. (and that it would be easier to find somebody on the corner than at CF).
by Matt Klaassen on Apr 30, 2008 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
or
trade teahen instead of David in the first place…
would probably have to throw in another player, but we do have some flexibility at CF tbh
tehean and tony pena jr for greene
iam down for that
by Billybutlerformvp on Apr 30, 2008 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I doubt the Padres would be.
Call it a hunch.
idk they might
who would they put at ss if they trade greene??
by Billybutlerformvp on Apr 30, 2008 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
not TPJ?
Sounds like a plan to me.
TPJ has almost no trade value and Teahen is not a proven CFer. That would be a ridiculously stupid trade for the Padres to make. Kevin Towers is one of the smartest GMs in baseball. It won’t happen.
just for the record
when I originally posted above, I was simply wondering if Teahen could play CF so the Royals could move him there after trading Dejesus. I made no comment as to what Towers would or would not do.
by Matt Klaassen on May 1, 2008 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
If they can play Scott Hairston in CF
They can deal with Teahen in CF at Petco.
Don’t they have Jim Edmonds though? What happened to him?
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
He got old
He’s batting .164/.250/.239 for them so far.
i doubt the padres are intrested in fact theyseem more
intrested in a guy like felix pie. The padres have been rumored to be getting ready for a fire sale so who knows. They would prob try to get rid of their other players like wolf, tony clark, and maddux. The only trade I would do is Dejesus + Blake for Khalil Greene and Wolf since they dont want him anyway.
by Billybutlerformvp on Apr 30, 2008 2:42 PM EDT reply actions
I would only go for DDJ-for-Greene straight-up
...if we could sign Greene to an extension. Greene is only under contract through 2009, but we have DeJesus locked up through, I think, 2011.
Sure, Gathright can handle CF in the interim, but he is NOT the long-term answer, and we don’t really have any good majors-ready CF prospects. If Teahen can handle CF, I might be more amenable to the trade.
Kalil Green Blows
Didnt he bant like .222 last eyar
A lot of you wont like me... by I assure you my opinion will be voiced GO ROYALS!
Greene has pretty good career hitting stats for a SS
.253/.310/.437. He hit .254/.291/.468 last year.
That being said, his awful OBP is partly why I’m hesitant about this proposed trade. We’d be trading away our best OBP guy for a guy who is a total OBP sink.
Not saying whether the trade would be good one way or another
but keep in Petco as a serious pitchers park (look what it did to Brian Giles’ numbers, for example). Here are Greene’s career home/road splits from baseball-reference:
home: .228 /.290/ .364/.654
road: .277 /.330 /.507 /.837
More palatable. His OPS+ last year was actually 100.
by Matt Klaassen on May 1, 2008 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
How much does a pitcher's park affect OBP?
It’s effects on SLG are pretty evident, but I’ve always thought that OBP would be slightly less effective.
Nevertheless, those are encouraging road splits.
I would think some...
Pitchers are more likely to challenge you in the zone if they don’t have to worry as much about the long ball.
right
something along those lines, for example. In Moneyball, they talk about one of Sandy Alderson’s early memos (when he was running the As) about how, based on the James stuff he had read, that there is a circular relationship between walks and power—more walks lead to more home runs, which lead to more walks.
or something.
I’ll go out on a limb (admitting my relative) and say I would take Greene for DDJ in trade. Simply beause he’s younger, right? And at a position that’s harder to fill, and even if Moustakas can play SS he won’t be ready for a while. Greene would at least give the Royals a decent chance of being league average at the position. I like DDJ, but he looks like he’s at his ceiling now, and I don’t think he’ll be any better by the time the Royals are ready to contend, thats all.
by Matt Klaassen on May 1, 2008 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Some ballparks have better "hitters eyes" than others
Kauffman has long been lauded by hitters as one of the best “hitters eyes” (dark background, no distracting white) in the league. This can lead to better pitch selections, and higher OBAs.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
You may note
the difference between his road and home OBP is less than the difference between his home and road BA.
Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.
Home/road splits...
like that make him the anti-Nefi Perez. His Coors field home/road splits were insane when we traded Dye for him.
I'm not much interested in Greene
I don’t like the looks of that sub-.300 OBP. The power is nice, but OBP is the more important part of OPS and his OBP really, truly stinks. I’d rather have DeJesus for less money than Greene (2yrs/$11M). Giving up DeJesus for a guy like Greene is not the answer to our SS problem.
I probably disagree with you.
As a long-time...
...Cubs observer, I can tell you that they will not trade either Pie or Cedeno. That team doesn’t need either DeJesus or Greene. – TL
FWIW
I’ll keep plugging for a trade for Chin-Lung Hu involving one of our pitching prospects. The Dodgers have a lack of good pitching prospects (only 6 or so of their top 20 prospects in the Sickels ratings are pitchers, and only three in the top nine), and much of their big league rotation (Schmidt, Lowe, et al) is getting old. They would seem like logical trade partners for us for Hu.
It would take Cortes...and that still wouldn't be enough
Cortes is not as highly ranked a prospect as Hu by anyone. Hochevar would probably do it, but that would be a stupid trade for us. So it would have to be Cortes+ or Rosa+. And the plus would have to be pretty good.
I probably disagree with you.
by Scott McKinney on Apr 30, 2008 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Err,
just because only 6 of their top 20 Sickels prospects are pitchers does not mean that the Dodgers lack good pitching prospects. Sickels has 3 of their top 5 as pitchers, Kershaw (1), McDonald(3) and Meloan(5).
Clayton Kershaw is as good as any pitching prospect in the minors right now. Sickels rates him as an A. For him to rate a 20 year old pitching prospect as a straight A, that’s high praise. Kevin Goldstein on BPro rates him 5 stars. 20 years old, 248 Ks, 82 walks in 184.2 IP. At AA this year, 31 Ks, 10 BBs in 25.2 IP.
.
Sickels has James McDonald as a B+, Goldstein gives him 3 stars. 23 years old, in AA, career 392 Ks, 124 walks, in 354 IP. This year, in AA, 22Ks, 5 walks, in 22.1IP.
Sickels has Jon Meloan as a B. Goldstein gives him 3 stars. 23 year old reliever in AAA, with lots of Ks, 261 Ks 73 walks in 183.1 IP. This year, in AAA, 25Ks, 12 walks in 25.2 IP. He is starting in AAA this year.
And then there is Scott Elbert, C+ from Sickels, 4 stars from Goldstein. Talented with great stuff but has injury and control issues. 21 years old, in AA, career 370 Ks 182 BBs in 325 IP. This year, in AA, 24Ks 10 walks in 14 IP.
And in the majors they have 23 year old Chad Billinsgley.
The highest rating Sickels gave a Royals pitching prospect was a B, Hochevar. The Dodgers have 3 pitching prospects with the same or better rating. The highest rating the Goldstein gave a Royals pitching prospect was 4 stars. The Dodgers have 2 pitching prospects with the same or better rating. Goldstein ranks Hochevar as the best pitcher under 25 in the Royals system. He ranks Billingsley as the best pitcher under 25 in the Dodgers system.
The Dodgers might have the best group of young pitching prospects in the majors. Why would they want to trade a way a top SS prospect, ready to replace Rafael Furcal, for a pitching prospect?
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
Baseball America has Cortes and Hu virtually tied
Hu is ranked 55th best prospect in the nation, Cortes is #57. I might balk at Cortes plus throw-in, because I honestly think Hu for Cortes straight-up is a pretty even trade.
And as much as it would suck to give up Cortes, we need an offensive upgrade at SS that badly, and we’re for sure not going to find that upgrade in our farm system or through free agency anytime soon.
Question
Where did Buckner and Callaspo line up in prospect rankings when that deal went down? Seems kinda like the same situation, young pitcher for a young middle infielder.
Disclaimer: Comments may not be suitable for young children or women who are pregnant, or women who think they may be pregnant. Side effects could include nausea, dizziness, or yelling at the monitor in disbelief.
by MileHighKCfan on Apr 30, 2008 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions
It was analogous
Callaspo was ranked as Arizona’s #4 prospect by Baseball America in 2007. Buckner was, I think, 9th, but I’ve seen rankings that placed him in the top five of Royals prospects as well.
A Hu-for-Cortes trade would be similar-two prospects ranked roughly equally, perhaps with a slight edge to the non-pitcher-but it raises the stakes too, since both guys are top-three prospects in their respective organizations.
Other than BA's rankings
Outside of Baseball America, I don’t think most of the baseball world sees Hu and Cortes as equivalent prospects. First, Baseball Prospectus ranks Hu highly and Cortes isn’t even in their top 100 (although KG said he was probably a top 110 prospect). And good fielding SS’s who can hit some are more rare than good RHP’s with two pitches. Skewing their values even more is the fact that Hu is essentially major league ready, while Cortes is at least two years away. I don’t think the Dodgers would consider Cortes for Hu straight up, but that’s just my speculation.
I probably disagree with you.
by Scott McKinney on Apr 30, 2008 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Didn't Hu
Rise pretty quickly based on last year’s stats? I thought he wasn’t all that highly rated, then had a really good year last year and soared up the charts.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
It isn't just Baseball America who has Hu and Cortes virtually tied
FWIW, CBS Sportsline has Hu at 86th and Cortes at 88th in their top 100 prospects list. Also, BP ranks Hu abnormally high—it is the only publication I’ve seen that has Hu breaking the top 50 (Keith Law has Hu right at 50th, though).
Cortes hasn’t shown up on peoples’ radar the same way Hu has-I think Retro is right. The pre-2007 Sickels rating for Hu was a B or B, nothing outstanding, but with the year he had, and with his exposure in the Futures All-Star game, his stock has risen considerably.
Doesn't BA have Cortes ranked abnormally high?
Does anyone else have Cortes ranked anywhere near that high? And when you look at prospect rankings, you can’t treat them all equally. BA and BP are the gold standard. I put every other ranking system far below those two. I value Sickels opinion. Random rankings by websites like CBS Sportsline don’t carry much weight.
Cortes hasn’t shown up on peoples’ radar the same way Hu has-I think Retro is right. The pre-2007 Sickels rating for Hu was a B or B, nothing outstanding, but with the year he had, and with his exposure in the Futures All-Star game, his stock has risen considerably.
Cortes hasn’t shown up on peoples’ radar? What does that mean? Do you think they don’t know he exists? They know he’s out there and, for the most part, scouts opinions of him aren’t as high as they are of Hu. Neither of them were very highly ranked before last year. Both blossomed last year. Hu blossomed more. Hu is a good hitting, excellent defense SS who is major league ready. That is worth more than a pitcher with two good pitches and control issues who is at least two years away from the majors. Long story short, Cortes-for-Hu straight up isn’t happening, in my opinion. No way.
I probably disagree with you.
by Scott McKinney on Apr 30, 2008 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Granted, BP and BA are the gold standard
and on that level, it seems like a draw. I do think BP underrates Cortes, at least to a greater degree than BA overrates Cortes.
It isn’t that the Dodgers’ scouts don’t know Cortes exists, but I think that Hu’s stock in the rankings were helped a lot by stuff like how well he did in the Futures game, stuff that Cortes doesn’t have a chance to add onto his resume yet because he’s a bit younger. The fact that Cortes has made it onto these top 100 lists sooner in his career than Hu did points to the possibility that Cortes has the higher ceiling. As things stand right now, yeah, you’re right, Hu is major-league ready and Cortes has a couple of kinks to work out, but Cortes probably has more upside.
Plus, ever since Ken Rosenthal reported about a week ago that the Dodgers and Furcal might start talking extension, I’ve been irrationally optimistic that the Dodgers would be looking to shop Hu. So I might very well be seeing things with a “glass is half full…or more than half full” lens. :)
It isn't so much Cortes vs Hu.
It’s Cortes vs Kershaw and McDonald and Elbert and Meloan AND Furcal vs Hu.
If the Dodgers trade Hu, they’re going to either have to sign Furcal, 31 years old in 2009, to a new contract after this season, or try to find another SS somewhere. Their next best SS prospect, Ivan DeJesus, is similar to Hu, before Hu had his good year in 2007. He’s still only 21, though in AA, and likely won’t be ready by 2009. Whereas if they get Cortes, they already have Kershaw, McDonald, Elbert, Meloan.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
DDJ + Pena
For Greene. And then get Dunn in the off season!
Sign Alex Gordon to a life time contract!!!
Do not trade DDJ
Unless we get a complete rip off of a deal.
I would deal Teahen, but not DeJesus.
Rowdy Hardy Fan Club member.
Here's another one for ya'll
Mark Ellis will be a FA after this season, chances are the A’s will let him play out the year as he should be a Type A FA and they would get an extra 1st round pick next year. What I’ve seen is that he may be available for around 6-7MM a year for 3 years. If that is the case, would it make sense for us to pursue him and try to move Callaspo to short in the offseason? FWIW, Ellis is in the top 5 for fielding at 2B I believe. Thoughts?
Disclaimer: Comments may not be suitable for young children or women who are pregnant, or women who think they may be pregnant. Side effects could include nausea, dizziness, or yelling at the monitor in disbelief.
I adamantly believe that Callaspo should not be playing SS long-term
He is, by all accounts, an above-average defensive second baseman, and putting him at SS would waste that. Just because Callaspo can play SS doesn’t mean he should. I like Ellis, but not at the expense of sticking Callaspo at short.
Okay
How bout moving Ellis to SS? If he IS in the top 5 in fielding among second basemen then doesn’t that probably translate to just above average at SS? I really don’t know how that would translate, but that’s what I would guess.
Disclaimer: Comments may not be suitable for young children or women who are pregnant, or women who think they may be pregnant. Side effects could include nausea, dizziness, or yelling at the monitor in disbelief.
by MileHighKCfan on Apr 30, 2008 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think Ellis has the range for SS either.
I probably disagree with you.
by Scott McKinney on Apr 30, 2008 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions
So where does a top 5 fielding 2nd Baseman
fit at SS? Would he be below average at SS?
Disclaimer: Comments may not be suitable for young children or women who are pregnant, or women who think they may be pregnant. Side effects could include nausea, dizziness, or yelling at the monitor in disbelief.
by MileHighKCfan on Apr 30, 2008 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I gotta run
I’ll check back in on this later.
Disclaimer: Comments may not be suitable for young children or women who are pregnant, or women who think they may be pregnant. Side effects could include nausea, dizziness, or yelling at the monitor in disbelief.
by MileHighKCfan on Apr 30, 2008 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I think he'd be a below average SS
I’m not sure what his +/- or UZR is, but from everything I’ve seen of him and read about him, he doesn’t have a SS’s range.
I probably disagree with you.
by Scott McKinney on Apr 30, 2008 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Ellis HAS the range
I’m an A’s fan, I watch him alot, his range is outstanding. Try watching some A’s games, or go to Athletics Nation and put up a diary asking for opininos. He does not have the ARM, after shoulder injury especially. That’s why the A’s have put up with Bobby Crosby for years.
Range wise, he regularly rates as the best 2b in MLB. In 2007, UZR had him at 25 runs above average, best in MLB. 2nd was Utley at 16 above average. In 2006, 9 runs above average.2005, 23 runs above average, 2003, 22 runs above average.
All the other metrics, RZR, Zone Rating, plus minus, typically have him around that too.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
Thanks for that info
I found it really hard to believe that a guy could have that great of range at 2B but not be considered at least average at SS.
Disclaimer: Comments may not be suitable for young children or women who are pregnant, or women who think they may be pregnant. Side effects could include nausea, dizziness, or yelling at the monitor in disbelief.
by MileHighKCfan on May 2, 2008 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
Callaspo will make a very good 2B for this team. He has no business being a regular SS.
I probably disagree with you.
by Scott McKinney on Apr 30, 2008 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions
What I have read and what I have seen from watching him play
To my eyes, he was below average range for a SS.
I probably disagree with you.
by Scott McKinney on Apr 30, 2008 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions
In the game where Hochevar
pitched at Oakland. Callaspo made two pretty simple throws from short that both needed to be picked by Billy at first. I remember thinking, “Why the hell aren’t our good defensive players in for Hochevar’s first start?” But it was a Sunday and the regulars had been getting A LOT of playing time, so I guess I understood.
by I need more Esteban on May 1, 2008 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions
On Khalil Greene
I was just in San Diego over the weekend and got to attend the Padres vs. D-Backs game on Saturday, an 8-7 extra innings vicotry for the Padres. Greene was very unimpressive to me, granted it was only one game, but he went 0-5. He is definitely a fan favorite there, though. The San Diegans love him as he got the loudest ovations throughout the game. His defense looked good for the most part but nothing spectacular. There was a slow roller up the middle that I really figured he could’ve made a play on, but he didn’t even attempt a throw.
I know it’s a very small sample size but I really don’t think he is the answer. It seems like a quick fix, and once he got here, we would probably be complaining about his terrible batting average and OBP.
by I need more Esteban on May 1, 2008 10:53 AM EDT reply actions
i want tony pena jrs clone as the starting shortstop
with that my proposal is we get Anderson Hernandez
by Billybutlerformvp on May 1, 2008 11:46 AM EDT reply actions
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