It's Time to Acknowledge Reality
by Freneau on May 26, 2008 3:46 PM EDT
in Kansas City Royals News
Email
Print“I’m going to stick with Tony for a little while. I look at his recent history, meaning last year, knowing he got off to a slow start, knowing he’s one of those guys who has not accumulated a ton of major league at-bats. We would like that to be a productive slot, as you would any other slot.” - Trey Hillman on Yahoo! Sports
Dayton, Trey, you're doing a heckuva job evaluating talent and putting together a roster/lineup.
Tony Pena Jr. is not hitting. Even if we pretend that he's the best defensive shortstop in the league, there is a certain level of competence at the plate that simply isn't being displayed. This is compounded by the dirty little secret that Pena's play at shortstop is uneven and not beyond criticism either.
Think of it this way, and I'll use batting average since, well, we all know how important OBP is around these parts. If Pena improved his batting average one hundred points, he still wouldn't be hitting enough to justify regular playing time. We hear all the time about how a great bullpen shortens the game, which may be true. What then of the free inning the Royals hand right back each and every game?
As jonfmorse mentioned in the game thread today, Pena has done absolutely nothing to earn this blind faith and patience. I'm not a huge fan of Ross Gload the player, but there's a solid body of evidence that he'll hit at a certain level and that he's probably not going to be sporting an OPS under .600 at the end of the year. Compared to Pena, Gload is Jim Thome. But to date, after Dayton Moore acquired him with almost no experience in the upper levels of professional baseball, Pena has been given over 700 plate appearances. Why? Even if you accept that last season was a lost cause and he was a stopgap, how do you explain 2008? The Royals left Surprise with barely a backup second baseman that they trust, much less a shortstop. The Royals have had plenty of time to address this situation, and it's frankly damning that it has been allowed to reach this point.
The Royals are now last in baseball in runs scored. They've been outscored by the Orioles, Padres and Giants. The Nationals have outscored the Royals by eighteen runs already. They are fifty runs from being a middle of the pack AL team, much less a good one. Sadly, the AL Central suddenly looks much tamer than we originally thought -- it might only take 88 wins to claim the division -- and the Royals are wasting a legitimate shot at contention thanks to a lineup that simply isn't good at anything. Anything.
Predictably, Hillman believes that Pena is saving something absurd, like "a run a game" with his defense. He isn't. Everyone understands that defense matters, especially at shortstop. But there has to be a limit, and at a certain point you're out-smarting yourself and hurting your ballclub, all while congratulating yourself on how old-school and gritty you are.
250 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Can anyone say Mike Avilies?!?
But seriously folks, I think it’s time to give Callaspo the majority of the SS at-bats and either DFA Pena or use him exclusively as a late game sub. He would make sense to carry on the roster in that capacity.
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
I've been screaming for Aviles
And being mocked for it on this board for the better part of two months. I’d also like to see a Maier for Teahen swap at this point.
No mocker I
but I confess to being sarcastic here. I see no point in bringing Aviles up unless the Royals get rid of German.
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
Agreed
Callaspo would be a huge upgrade just by being an average hitter. And how bad can he be defensively? Certainly not bad enough to not make this move.
I will repeat: Callaspo is a temporary solution
If/when we deal Grudz, Callaspo will and should become the everyday second baseman. If we were to shift Callaspo to short and deal Grudz, we’d go from having Gold Glove-caliber defense at both middle infield positions to pretty abysmal defense at both positions (assuming German takes Grudz’s place).
Make no mistake: moving Callaspo to SS means taking a major hit not only in SS defense, but in 2b defense as well. Not worth it.
This has been...
apparent for some time. Pena was horrible last year. Probably in the top five of worst hitters in all of baseball. Everyone ignored this and commented how he exceed expectations by hitting an empty (and by empty I mean EMPTY) 260. He is twice as bad this year and his defense is so overrated it’s ridiculous.
Let’s not even talk about his bunting or baserunning or I may pass out.
Hey go Royals
I liked the tease of being a game below .500 like a week ago. Then the perfectly time 8 game losing streak to cruh basically any and all hope we had of ever reaching .500 again.
I’m becoming increasingly impatient with Hillman and Moore. I know we need to give them time, but I’m just not seeing Hillman as the savior at manager.
Accidentally not thedude925 anymore. I do hate this new name.
Bring back Berroa!!!!!
or…. just start Callaspo. Ahem.
The really sad part about Pena was that we could have picked him up on waivers, but instead we chose to trade for him. And a top 10 prospect at that, in Eric Cordier.
Now, I’m sure a lot of folks may say, hey, so what, Cordier was injured. Well, he suffered the exact same kind of injury that the player we spent $55 million on that offseason had just gotten over, so it’s not exactly like we didn’t have faith in the ability to rebound from that injury.
This space intentionally left blank.
Reality is
The Padres and Giants also have a 9-hole problem. In fact, pretty much every team in the NL has a 9-hole problem. Many of these teams still score. The Royals have hit 25 home runs. Their team slg. avg. is .360. Their OBA is .314. Pena isn’t the only hole in the boat. In fact, he isn’t even the most serious hole.
?
Your lead-off hitter has a .327 OBA and your 5 and 6 guys are averaging .339 slg.
by Hearditbefore on May 26, 2008 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions
He's not the only problem...
for sure. But he sucks the worst for sure.
RF and 1B/DH?
I know Pena sucks like a Dirt Devil. But I think he’s one of three problems, with Teahen’s bat and 1B/DH (wherever Billy isn’t) being the other. In the AL, yeah, there are a lot of really good offensive shortstops, but there are also a lot of really good outfielders and 1B/DH types, and we are running Teahen and Gload out there. All three of those positions need to be drastically upgraded. Once that happens, we pretty much have to hope Butler, Gordon and Guillen don’t flop.
as of right now
Teahen and Butler suck at about an equal pace
by playingwithfire on May 26, 2008 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah...but one is sucking in his prime and one is sucking at barely 22 years old and in his first season
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on May 26, 2008 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions
doesn't mean that Teahen is the only problem now
Both+Gathright+TBJ+God I hate John Buck+bullpen arm not named Soria, Ramirez or Nunez are all our problems.
by playingwithfire on May 26, 2008 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions
That
is the most ridiculous thing I’ve heard on this site. HE IS THE HISPANIC HOLE is terrible bat sucks in everything around it.
sign Greinke a Evan Longoria type deal now.
Do you expect to generate your offense out of the 9-hole?
by Hearditbefore on May 26, 2008 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions
No
but I do expect a .250 OBP and this myth of him being such a good defensive SS is disgusting. Teahan is a problem as is Gathright OBP and Grudz ability to drive in runs.
sign Greinke a Evan Longoria type deal now.
So the team isn't generating enough runs to win
But Pena is the biggest problem? Please elaborate.
by Hearditbefore on May 26, 2008 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
he sucks on defense and he's the worst MLB hitter by far...id say thats a big problem
he sucked for 7 years in the minors, he sucked last year, he sucks this year…he would not be in professional baseball if he had a different last name
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on May 26, 2008 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions
lets not get crazy....
we have other huge holes in the lineup, but tony pena junior is OPSing 397 good for an OPS+ of 8….he’s by far the biggest hole we have
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on May 26, 2008 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Billy
is a development prospect and no one was bitching about him for the first 2 weeks of the season. I think he will come on the second half of the season he just has too much plate awareness not to.
sign Greinke a Evan Longoria type deal now.
I think
they need to make some big changes. Aviles is probably good enough to be at least a everyday 2b. In that case could we trade Grudz/Teahan or DeJesus and either a minor league pitching prospect or Meche for Holliday.
sign Greinke a Evan Longoria type deal now.
I 'm not saying changes shouldn't be made
Esp. SS. But you have to put this in perspective. Royals mgmt has been poking big holes in the boat for a long time. Stop-gap/expensive solutions are not the way to go. Fix the pitching first (70% there already). This isn’t roto ball. Wins are first, stats are 2nd.
by Hearditbefore on May 26, 2008 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I meant Grudz + DeJesus/Teahan + Meche/Minor league P (Rosa, Wood, etc)
sign Greinke a Evan Longoria type deal now.
hollidays 809 road ops doesnt bother you?
he seems like a coors field production…good player, but not great outside of denver
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on May 26, 2008 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Considering
we don’t have 1 current everyday player witha .809 OPS, NO !!!!!!!!.
sign Greinke a Evan Longoria type deal now.
you'd be giving up players worthy of a 950 ops player when in reality, you're likely...
to receive back a player with around an 800 ops which like i said…good, not great. id be more interested in Jason Bay…he’d be far cheaper money/prospectwise and has hit in a legitimate hitting environment
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on May 26, 2008 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions
What the heck makes you think
that the Rox would trade Holliday?
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
its been talked about in the media that they're looking to deal him b/c of the terrible start, impending free agency, and scott boras
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on May 26, 2008 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions
are you serious
What terrible start? The .321 average or the 8 hr. perhaps the .952 OPS?
by playingwithfire on May 26, 2008 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions
and Holliday is signed through
next year too
by playingwithfire on May 26, 2008 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions
and then he's going to get REALLY expensive...
they’re supposedly shopping him like the Rangers did with Tex last year…probably hoping for a similar return for 1 1/2 years of the player
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on May 26, 2008 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions
probably won't be
until the deadline
by playingwithfire on May 26, 2008 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions
yep, but i DO think they'll trade him this year or this offseason...
and try to have Tulo lead this team into ‘real’ contention…like year after year…he’s signed up for quite a few years at a reasonable price and then they’ll try to get people that fill in around Tulo from the Holliday bounty.
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on May 26, 2008 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't see the Royals trading for him
pretty simple
by playingwithfire on May 26, 2008 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions
i said earlier...i want no part of him
and his coors inflated numbers
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on May 26, 2008 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions
You bring up terrible starts
and then you bring up Tulowitzski, he is the definition of terrible start this season.
by I need more Esteban on May 27, 2008 12:58 AM EDT up reply actions
the Rocks' terrible start....not holliday personally
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on May 26, 2008 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ve been calling for the release of TPJ on here for 10 months now. U either find a major league shortstop you can acquire through trade, or you find a prospect, start callaspo at short until you can give him 2nd, drop TPJ, bring up Aviles because for adding 100 points to your SS batting average and God knows getting more power on this team could be pretty big. If Aviles is brought up and hits (at the least) .250 with 8-10 homers and 45-55 rbis with an ops of 650 (mediocre numbers, my gawd,,) It’s better than TPJ’s from his “golden year” last year. I don’t give a s* if he saves a run a game. In our losses we lose by more 3.5 a game (and that stat was a week and a half ago) and God knows wins are few and far between lately…. There is no way you can say that if Aviles even had 25 (damn near terrible) errors during the rest of the season (Jeter averages 19 an entire year, Reyes averages 18, and ozzie smith had 5 years with more than 20, and Oz Guillen had 4) the Royals are in worse shape with a bat that even any scout can guarantee is better than TPJ’s. Aviles has earned a shot with this team to prove if he’s capable and we have a position that he can play that should definitely be up for grabs. Even if you don’t bring him up, Callaspo deserves the shot that he deserves as long as he practices 500 double-play balls a day before the game (could be the ugliest turn I’ve seen…).
Ozzie Smith could hit a bit. at least he was timely. Ozzie Guillen never sniffed .300 or had more than 4 homers in a year. Some naysayer tell me the defensive prowess that makes Pena the best option for a team that is last in the league in runs and by the way pena has 6 errors this year and is on his way to another post 20 E season…
Aviles or Callaspo will not make the royals a contender but being a GM is making the necessary steps to create a better ball club.
My next post will be about how Buck drains and has drained this club and how Olivo with Tupman as his backup would have given the royals (at least) 4 more (second place…) wins this year…
you are out of your mind if you think buck has cost this team 4 wins this year compared to olivo
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on May 26, 2008 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I
disagree. Our Catchers I believe are actually bright spots this year. Buck has a 1 run better CERA than Olivo and they have both hit well in important spots. Buck hasn’t been good against stolen bases but his CERA doesn’t reflect that yet as opposed to Olivo. Buck calls a better game and KC should consider playing Olivo at 1b or DH more and leaving Teahan, DeJesus or Gathright on the bench most games.
sign Greinke a Evan Longoria type deal now.
CERA is a junk stat, man.
But Buck and Olivo have combined for decent production from the catcher’s spot.
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
John is batting 50 points less with 4 homers less in more playing time. He has thrown out 0 baserunners (if I’m correct… no more than 1) and the starting pitchers era is only .75 lower though he has gotten Grienke and Bannister for EVERY one of their good starts (Can we say bloated! Olivo gets Tomko and half of Meche…). Olivo has had a poor pitching staff to deal with and a poor offense that doesn’t get people on base and has still performed. Buck had one good power year, has never had a good arm, and the best complement we can give him is he’s a pretty decent battery mate? Come on now…
Cherrypicking?
You really think Olivo will be this good all year? Yes, he’s played better than Buck thus far. However, it’s fluky: Miguel Olivo has a track record of only really hitting vs. lefties and posting very low OBPs. Buck was the better hitter last year when they were both starters.
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
Two things:
1) Olivo is playing so far above his career line it’s not even funny; he’s going to come back down to earth. And as I have said on numerous occasions both here and elsewhere, he has never, ever, EVER, NOT EVEN ONCE posted an OBP over .300 for a full season.
2) Even with Olivo playing out of his mind, Buck still has a higher OBP while playing a bit below his career line. Now imagine when Olivo crashes back to terra firma.
Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.
the only way i could see any one player improving this team by 4 wins this year would be to replace
tpj with hanley ramirez…thats pretty much it.
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on May 26, 2008 5:29 PM EDT reply actions
ehh....all stats made to measure things like this would disagree
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on May 26, 2008 5:31 PM EDT reply actions
All stats
don’t take in to consider a 20+ Error SS that hit’s .165 and CAN’T BUNT EITHER.
sign Greinke a Evan Longoria type deal now.
im THE head of the hating pena fan club....
but lets at least stick to realism…theres plenty of reality that can be used to talk about how bad pena is…but lets not just make up stuff like 4 games difference b/w pena and another horrible shortstop in lugo….theres plenty there….the 6 errors, the numerous other shoulda been errors, the terrible offensive numbers, terrible baserunning, complete inability to bunt, etc.
do you really think that upgrading from the worst shortstop to one of the worst that makes 9 million/yr would take this team from 70 wins to 82 wins over the course of the season?
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on May 26, 2008 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm saying
if you keep Pena on this team you won’t win 70 games. This isn’t last years Tony Pena this is this years and pitchers have scouted him and know how to get him out. He isn’t gonna bust out of this slump. He’s not a hitter bring Aviles up or play Collaspo. Look at his stats R/27 is .59 compared to Lugo 4.14 and their Runs Created is 17.8 vs. 2.7. 15 runs probably would have gave us 3-4 wins already.
sign Greinke a Evan Longoria type deal now.
i highly doubt this but, whatever....
we’re on the same side as long as that side doesnt involve trading for julio lugo….pena needs to go
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on May 26, 2008 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm all for Pena gone too
But you can’t truly believe that this team is fixed if Aviles or Callaspo are at short? There are a lot of problems with this team’s hitting, especially during this 8 game losing streak. Pena needs to go, but it’s not going to make a huge difference unless the rest of the lineup starts hitting! Ya know, the ones who get 4 ABs a game.
by I need more Esteban on May 26, 2008 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Hmm, seem to have struck a nerve here.
At least it was nice to generate some discussion
I believe GMDM
has done a good job of finding arms (Meche, Ramirez, Cortes, Mahay) and now he needs to address the offense. Holiday, Burrell, Ryan Howard, whoever he needs to get to address this complete lack of power pull the string draft Smoak or Alvarez and this team could compete in ‘09 r 10.
sign Greinke a Evan Longoria type deal now.
Guillen, Olivo?
That’s 1/2 the home run total of the club. Looks like he’s already started.
by Hearditbefore on May 26, 2008 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
When your backup catcher is tied for your team’s lead in home runs, it is hard to think of a bigger red flag.
(I know, I know, Olivo has DHed a lot too. But still, it had to be said).
What I don't understand
Is where people stand with pitching versus hitting – which comes first. Let me know how you feel about it. I see a GM with limited resources (cash, prospects, players) who attacked the highest priority first. Do you take your limited resources and use it to secure bats first? Not on my planet. Has Pena been playing SS for 20 too many games? Sure. Why? I don’t know. Maybe the management is old style and will make the switch at the all-star break. It sure must be aggravating to be a Royal fan + watch Tony in the box.
by Hearditbefore on May 26, 2008 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions
its closer to 220 too many games than to 20...
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on May 26, 2008 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions
and with regards to pitching/hitting...
it doesnt matter which one you have…you’re gonna be bad if one of those two sucks…and shockingly enough, even though pitching is ‘the currency of baseball’ we still suck. however, we could have good hitting and the pitching staffs of old and wed still suck. Moore has to be able to do both…ive seen his ability with regards to pitchers…lots of swings and misses in the hitting department…
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on May 26, 2008 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions
for every one of those guys, ill give you gator, gload, shealy, etc....
he’s not proven himself to be an even good evaluator of offensive talent
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on May 26, 2008 5:46 PM EDT reply actions
I see your point
He probably should have been able to get Tulo instead of Shealy, Crawford instead of Gator and Javier Vasquez instead of Gload.
by Hearditbefore on May 26, 2008 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Strike Javier
and make that , hmm Crozinski.
by Hearditbefore on May 26, 2008 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions
2 talented arms for for an old prospect with inflated colorado stats that arent that great is bad
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on May 26, 2008 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions
So his problem is actually evaluating pitchers?
by Hearditbefore on May 26, 2008 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions
no...those guys had worn out there welcome here, but clearly had talent and affeldt turned it into performance...
but dayton seemed to think shealy was the long term solution at 1st base even though he is not good
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on May 26, 2008 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm
not gonna start complaining about GMDM yet. He was given an Absolutely bare franchise to work with. He has done a great job with the pieces he had so far. My complaint is Pena and Hillman continuing to run him out there.
sign Greinke a Evan Longoria type deal now.
i dont know how this isnt a reflection on DM
he believes in this defense up the middle crap, he traded a viable prospect for pena who wouldve been dfa’d a week later, he hired a manager who decides that running pena out there 6 days a week was a good thing….his hands are not clean in this fiasco
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on May 26, 2008 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions
What the hell...
Do you expect DM do? It’s not like offensive minded SS’s are hanging from trees. DM has made a bunch of low risk moves to temp. fill needs on this team and he has certainly done that. If you think Cordier is some kind of stud prospect, you’re kidding yourself. Pena was a low risk move that has not turned out. To blame that on DM, is insane.
i cant blame him for having the worst player in the league as...
the starting shortstop on the team that he put together…two years in a row? he is the general manager…if he signs/trades for bad players…it is his fault
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on May 26, 2008 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions
He is not the worst player...
in the league…He’s pretty bad, but he’s not the worst. He traded for TPJ to fill a hole at SS. It hasn’t worked and all we gave up was a pitcher who looks like he’ll never make it to the MLB. You’re expectations are a bit to high. What would you have liked DM to do instead of trading for TPJ? Start Berroa? Because there were no other options.
he has had a year to find a replacement
there isn’t another all-glove no-hit guy that can at least hit .270?
adam everett is a better defensive shortstop and he signed for next to nothing as a FA this offseason
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on May 26, 2008 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Adam Everett has an arm?
You are right, though…if DM had just signed Adam Everett we would easily be in the race. His .189 average and .235 OBP would surely take this team to the top. Every other hitter would be inspired by his mashing ability.
Get serious, if we had signed him, you’d be complaining about that signing.
by I need more Esteban on May 26, 2008 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions
no i wouldnt.
but if you’re going to go with a dead spot in the lineup b/c of his glovework, you might as well actually get one that is good with the glove.
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on May 26, 2008 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions
name me one player who is worse than tony pena jr.
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on May 26, 2008 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Charles Barkley
We’re talking about blackjack, right?
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on May 26, 2008 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Jose Cruz Jr.
That was easy, I only had to look through 5 teams:)
by Hearditbefore on May 26, 2008 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually...
yes, he is. He is the worst offensive regular player in the league by a good margin, and his defense this year is only barely above average.
Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.
No.
How do you know DM thought Shealy was a long term solution at 1st base? Shealy was a former top prospect that he took a risk on, and it didn’t work out, so what. Affledt is a LOOGY and Bausita looks like crap.
ill take a loogy over a 28 yr old AAA 1b
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on May 26, 2008 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions
The Shealy trade
was highly praised when it happened. Hindsight is 20/20.
by I need more Esteban on May 26, 2008 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions
The
Shealy trades and even the Pena trades weren’t that bad a moves at the time and still aren’t bad moves. Affledt and Bautista aren’t gonna work out and Pena wasn’t looking that bad last year. But this year he is a problem and I blame Hillman for running him out there.
sign Greinke a Evan Longoria type deal now.
That's your opinion
and I respect it. I would want to know what you would do instead, if you were a first year manager?
by I need more Esteban on May 26, 2008 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions
1. bench pena
2. do not start gload more than 1-2 times a week to give off days
3. quit giving starts to our 5th starter when we have an extra off day that would allow for us to skip tomko and gain meche, zack, banny and luke extra starts throughout the year.
4. quit bunting and stealing bases so god damn much….only the gator has the green light…when he plays
5. fire barnett and silverio
theres where id start
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on May 26, 2008 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Hiring and firing
is done by FO, i believe. Barnett needs to go, though.
by I need more Esteban on May 26, 2008 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions
how is trading away a young highly drafted pitcher...
albeit with arm issues for a 26 year old shortstop who was absolutely dreadful for 7 minor league seasons NOT a terrible move?
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on May 26, 2008 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I remember it
being pretty exciting because everone was so pissed how big of a bust Berroa was and wanted him out.
by I need more Esteban on May 26, 2008 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions
berroa sucked
but we could have likely had Pena for nothing—we were either #1 or #2 on the waiver list
This space intentionally left blank.
exactly...which i pointed out immediately when that happened
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on May 27, 2008 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Here is HOW BAD TONY PENA IS.
He is last in the ML among batters with 75 ABs in RC27 (Runs created per 27 outs Estimates how many runs per game a team made up of nine of the same player would score) at 0.59 and Second to Last a 2.5 RC (Runs created
[(H + BB + HBP – CS – GIDP) times (Total bases + .26[BB – IBB + HBP] + .52[SH + SF + SB])] divided by (AB + BB + HBP + SH+ SF) in the ML that is among 306 qualifying players. Those are absolutely terrible stats and manager that keeps a guy in their everyday lineup with those stats deserves to be in the cellar.
sign Greinke a Evan Longoria type deal now.
Everyone already knows
that Tona Pena is bad. I don’t see anyone arguing that he’s good.
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
So, I don't know the baseline
What is the avg for SS? And how many runs difference is that over the season so far?
If Hanley Ramirez is in the middle of this lineup, with Gordon and Guillen and Butler getting pitches to hit because H.R. has getting all the attention this team is MUCH better than 21-30. Much. I’m just talking about getting you’re second best bat in the game on a consistent basis and taking you’re you’re (arguably) second or third worst out of it. You wouldn’t be giving up that many more runs and would be scoring at the very least the amount you give up. Olivo has proven he can more than Buck in this league and be a good bottom of the lineup run producer. What has Buck done for this team in 5 years besides change his swing 11 times and been very mediocre?
RC
just to show you where he sits. Hanley is at 37.7 so far this season and was at 136.5 last year. Tony Pena is at 2.7 and finished 24th last season at 46.6. He is on pace to be at about 11 by the end of the season. That would have put him dead last among everyday SS for the last 8 years and would place him in the bottom 5 when you include reserves for that same time period. So his current statistics are impressively bad in HISTORIC PROPORTIONS
sign Greinke a Evan Longoria type deal now.
K
So Hanley last year was @ 136.5. I guess you can divide that by 9 players = 15 runs. He really didn’t raise his team’s run total by 15 runs a game, did he?
by Hearditbefore on May 26, 2008 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry
Re-read it. So Hanley would have RC/game something like .83 compared to Pena at about .05.
by Hearditbefore on May 26, 2008 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Never said he would make up 63 runs. He would make up at least 20. Total over 50 games. Though there is no stat to see what would happen if you threw someone in another teams lineup, park, schedule, etc, you have to admit the royals would be a better team (by probably 20-30 runs) with an MVP candidate on their team.
And I did look at all the stats between Buck and Olivo and it is basically a push, with the stats slightly going Olivo’s way… I won’t crucify Buck any more. Olivo is just hot and likes AL pitching… (interleague he killed too). Buck vs. Olivo relaly doesn’t make a huuuuge difference. Small but not as much…
you said we wouldve scored at least as many as wed give up....which means he would make a 63 run difference
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on May 26, 2008 6:24 PM EDT reply actions
It is obvious
that somebody is blackmailing somebody in order to get TJ playing time. My gut tells me that Tony Sr. is exploiting some dirty little secret he found out about Dayton Moore.
by Trey Hillman's Chin on May 26, 2008 6:51 PM EDT reply actions
This is somewhat rediculous.
Not that people want TPJ gone. That is fine, he is a defensive replacement in the Major Leagues at best. I just can’t fathom how anyone really believes that Tony Pena is the problem with this team. He is A problem, but not THE problem. By my calculations, the Royals are 5 – 11 in games that Alberto Callaspo starts. That is hardly something to be proud of.
How about Billy Butler not being able to take the ball out of the infield? Mark TeahEn? Gathright providing nothing from the outfield. Grudzy isn’t hitting the ball like two weeks ago. To many people’s dismay, Jose Guillen is by far and away our best hitter. It’s just too bad it took him a month to get going or maybe we would have a couple more wins.
The pitching is struggling a little bit during this streak too. In 6 of the 8 losses during this skid, we’ve given up more than 6 runs. That isn’t going to cut it! It’s a team that isn’t playing well right now and it really sucks a lot. I don’t even feel like watching. But did we really not expect times like these before the season? I know the AL central sucks but most of those teams are better than us so that is why we aren’t competing.
I think a lot of people on this site, before the season, believed that we would start really competing in ‘09. So it’s two months into ‘08 so let’s not jump off any cliffs yet. If we have a winning July, August, and September then I think we will be on the right track and ecstatic for ‘09. And if this BS is still happening a year from now, today, then I will be pretty upset.
Sorry, went off on a tangent.
Bottom line: TPJ is bad, but he is not the reason we are 21-30 and in last place.
by I need more Esteban on May 26, 2008 8:21 PM EDT reply actions
The fans here
actually want to be able to compete every game and to be honest the last 8 the Royals haven’t. Besides Meche 2-1 against Boston every game has been under control by the other team. No one is saying that there is only one problem with this team but to say that Pena isn’t the BIGGEST problem this lineup has is lying to yourself. The guy is the worst ML (position player) hitter the worst look at the stats. Not might be, close to, he is the WORST. And to have the FO and manager tout his OVERBLOWN fielding skills is a spit in our face. Are we taking this 8 game losing streak hard? Yes because just 1 week ago we rode into Boston winning two series in a row and just a game under .500 remembering the glory days of 2003, lol. This 8 game stretch hurts because we got our hopes up and now we are dejected. I personally look at this team and wonder how the Glass family let Baird destroy this franchise for so long. Our minor league cupboard is bare and people are frustrated that Pena is the option at SS and to be honest there aren’t many ways to turn and that makes me frustrated. Collaspo I really don’t think is the answer either we are 1-7 when he starts at SS and have been outscored 43-24. Lets get Aviles up and let him play his way out of being an option that’s all I’m asking. Once they’ve done that then at least everyone can agree we need to just be patient.
sign Greinke a Evan Longoria type deal now.
Good points
I do agree that he is the worst player in the lineup. I don’t think he is the biggest problem, though. I think having, young, inexperienced players in the heart of our order (save Jose Guillen, who on a good team would probably be hitting 5th) is our biggest problem.
I am on the, “give Aviles a shot” train, though. I don’t really see what it would hurt. See what we’ve got there, chances are he won’t be a world beater, but one has got to believe it’d be better than Pena.
by I need more Esteban on May 26, 2008 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions
the dbacks have a young inexperienced middle of their lineup....
as do the rays
youth isnt the problem…underperformance is
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on May 26, 2008 9:08 PM EDT up reply actions
This is Mike Aviles Week
Dayton and alot other FO was in Omaha for 2 games last week in which Aviles played SS during both. If KC is to give Aviles a shot I would have to believe it would be this week. Davies also started one of those games so it might be time to bring him up and end either the Tomko or Yabuta experiments.
sign Greinke a Evan Longoria type deal now.
Moore visited the minor
league affiliates. That’s standard practice, and it doesn’t mean anything by itself.
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
+1
Absolutely agree. Complaining about TPJ is like Mrs. Lincoln complaining about the play at Ford Theater.
The big problems are (a) Mark Teahen does not appear to be a middle of the order kind of hitter; (b) Billy Butler is not hitting for any kind of power; (c) Jose Guillen is off to an awful start; (d) we are playing Ross Gload, and he is off to an even worse start than he usually puts up, which isn’t much production anyway
I’d put TPJ playing as the 5th biggest reason we suck after all those.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on May 27, 2008 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Guillen
This is too bad, as I think Retro and I are usually on the same side (main difference: no one gives a crap what I think. And they shouldn’t!). But Guillen did have that hot streak, and that’s just kind of hitter he is (relies on a lot of contact, thus will be more streaky than a more patient hitter) and for a while during the winning “streak,” he was about the only one hitting. I think he’ll streak on and off all year and end up with at least an .800 OPS. Whether or not that’s worth the money he’s being paid is another question, but I don’t think he’s currently or will end up being anywhere close to being the problem that TPJ and other stuff are for the offense.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on May 27, 2008 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
He's hardly the problem
Guillen:
T-3rd in MLb in Doubles (w/ Berkman & McCann)
T-19th in MLB in RBIs (w/ Chipper, Mags, Burrell, Tejada)
T-17th in MLB in XBH (w/ M. Bradley, M. Holiday, Mags, D. Wright)
Those are just a few stats but he’s with some pretty good company there, even after a terrible start. J. Guillen is our best hitter by far. He is not the problem. You are probably right about the hot and cold streaks and when he’s in a cold one I will probably be eating crow. But I’m excited to see what his numbers are by the end of the season. What if he would’ve had just a decent April? His numbers might be off the charts. If we could just get some others to hit the ball, those RBI numbers will be well over 100.
by I need more Esteban on May 27, 2008 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me?
I thought I was trying to say that he isn’t close to being a big problem.
I will say that his overall numbers (OBP, SLUG) won’t be anywhere close to Berkman’s league. Then again, no one in their right minds would ever suggest they were anywhere close as hitters. But that doesn’t mean Guillen can’t be good.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on May 27, 2008 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreeing
just putting a few more numbers in there for good measure.
by I need more Esteban on May 27, 2008 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
You are also right about OBP & SLUG
Berkman is a monster!
by I need more Esteban on May 27, 2008 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Yup
Berkman=What Red Sox fans think Ortiz is (and for longer), plus he can play defense a bit (remember when he played CF? maybe a strech, but still…)
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on May 27, 2008 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Wait, what?
David Ortiz has been one of the best hitters in baseball since 2004. Berkman is also great.
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
D'oh!
Had a long, boring reply, then accidently lost it.
Anyway, to summarize, I was overstating, a bit. I know you can argue and fact me into the ground on this one, if I wanted to get into it, which I don’t. Im’ just an overreacting to the deification of Ortiz, a reaction which is not more rational than the understandable blogger irritation over Jeter—it isn’t fair to either player to get so sick of how the MSM talks about how great they are to forget how great they are. (It’s weird, though, that people tend to forget that the same allegedly Jeter-worshiping sportswriters screwed him in the MVP voting in both 1999 and 2006. Remember how much he whined in 2006? Wait, that wasn’t Jeter who complained? Who was that affable fellow?)
Anyhoo, I originally started thinking about a while back, stimulated by this comment by Rich Lederer:
“Is Lance Berkman the most underrated great player in the game today? The product of Rice University has a career batting average over .300 (.304), on-base percentage above .400 (.417), and a slugging average in excess of .500 (.565). He is younger than David Ortiz, yet has more hits (1070 to 1002) and walks (657 to 499) than Big Papi and almost the same number of home runs (211 to 218) in fewer AB (3516 to 3541).”
[from http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2006/08/whos_hot_whos_n_1.php]
Now, that was written before Berkman’s crappy 2007. And, when quickly looked over VORPs for both since 2003, I was surprised at how much Ortiz led. Sure, most of that was due to 2007 and Berkman’s injuries in 2005, but that counts. Having said that, looking at their overall careers, Ortiz’s Twins years also count, and during that period, Berkman’s numbers are far superior. Currently, Ortiz is coming out of a slump, and Berkman has been way-too-hot-to-maintain. But that also counts.
I don’t want to take anything away from Ortiz. He’s been a great player, and he’ll probably continue to be. [I’m sure NHZ is too nice to mention Ortiz’s CLUTCHNESS, which is totally quantifiable and adds to his value, unlike Derek Jeter media-fabricated, mythical clutchness! When A-Rod is compared unfavorably to Jeter, it is because the media just is stupid, but when A-Rod is compared unfavorably to Big Papi, well, maybe they’re onto something. Again, NHZ won’t make these points because he’s too much of a stat nerd. Maybe he’s not really a Red Sox fan, either!]
Having said that, Berkman’s younger, can play defense everyday (including outfield if he has to). I guess I object to the implication that, while Berkman’s been very good, that Ortiz is on a whole different level as a player. If I had to choose one of them for a team (say, the Royals, to pick one out of thin air), no matter what team, it would be Berkman. He’s younger, too.
So, that’s all. Whatever.
[Note on stats I looked at that I had in charts that I lost earlier: I just eyeballed the 2003 and after VORP, and without adding it up, Ortiz ha a clear lead. I lost the chart I made of OPS+, which goes back and forth since 2003 for who was better (with a big gap in 2007 as well as so far this year, for reasons stated above). Fo their careers, Ortiz’s OPS+ is 139. Berkman’s is 149.]
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on May 27, 2008 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Very well argued
and yes, you’re right that Berkman has to be considered one of the majors’ best (even if playing in the weaker league). His off-year in 2007 was akin to A-Rod’s 2006 as an “off-year that most anyone else would like to have,” and his consistency in his early career might well make him worth more runs total in his career than Ortiz has been worth.
But yea, I totally get the argument that Berkman doesn’t really get the justifiable hype. Because it’s true, especially since the Astros have no gotten as much media exposure as the Sox have in recent years. Luckily-and partly because of, but still fortunately-for Ortiz his peak years have coincided with his FO being willing to throw the kitchen sink into winning a couple world series, and his highly visible-national TV-heroics have made him one of those guys that you’re allowed to say “clutch” without getting laughed out of a room.
The thing is, if Lance Berkman was on the Red Sox instead of Big Papi, he might have done the same thing. I think you’re right that not many people understand how close they usually are in value.
Anyhow, I was just defending my boy Ortiz because I thought you were arguing he was “not that good” when I see you were really I arguing that Berkman “is that good.” Well done.
And yeah…Ortiz’s clutchiness…well…see…when you OPS 1000 regularly, you generally OPS 1000 in “clutch” situations.
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
Yeah
I thought you’d get more of a laugh out of the A-Rod/Ortiz/Jeter triangulation re: clutchiness, which was just an attempt at Humor.
Obviously, being in Boston, especially in a history-mkaing championship run, is a big plus for Ortiz, recognition-wise. I’m sure the same would happen with Berkman. Plus, sportswriters love his personality. Every write-up on him has some story about a beat-up pickup truck, surprise that a guy that “fat” can hit, run, and field so well, something about him throwing up in college workouts, hunting, and so on. He’s like a bigger, more talented Nick Swisher. Real personality.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on May 27, 2008 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh yes, I did giggle.
I like it when I find someone else with a sense of humor about clutchiness. Especially with how many Sox fans I know that believe it clutch hitting as a real ability.
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
Confirmation
Haha… that last line just confirms that the Sox are the New Yankees (Ortiz=Jeter).
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on May 27, 2008 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions
except ortiz is alot better
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on May 27, 2008 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess I disagree
His OPS is barely better than DJ’s and Teahen’s. He should be doing much better than that. We were counting on him for an OPS+ in the range of 110-115. He’s at 93 right now. That’s a huge difference, especially considering he hits in the cleanup position.
I think he’ll get better on his own, nothing more to do than let him snap out of his funk. But I think he’s been a huge part of why this offense has failed to click thus far, not #9 hitter Tony Pena.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
Sure over the entire season
But is there a way to figure that over the last month? I know the entire season matters but people go through slumps.
by I need more Esteban on May 27, 2008 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Guillen
OPS+ this month is at 142. Not saying he’ll stay that high the rest of the season but he should be able to get his OPS+ where we wanted it by seasons end. He’s 6th in the league in RBI’s he has righted his ship it seems. His May line is more than we could’ve asked for.
.329 .352 .553 .905 w/3Hr and 20 RBI’s and 10 2b’s. Those are the kind of numbers we were looking for when we signed him. I think from the time the weather has warmed up he has been better than expected.
sign Greinke a Evan Longoria type deal now.
+1
He should want to play in Florida. He seemed to love it there.
by I need more Esteban on May 27, 2008 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
No doubt he's begun to turn it around
But that also illustrates how bad he was in April. We were completely inept offensively that month too and he was a big part of it.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
No doubt
but I think it’s safe to say he’s no longer a “problem.”
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
Obviously
I probably disagree with you.
by Scott McKinney on May 27, 2008 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Just got back into the country
I’ve been gone for several days. At least half of the losing streak is my fault. Sorry.
I probably disagree with you.
by Scott McKinney on May 27, 2008 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Often I try hard to put out the fires of overreaction
...but I’m not even going to try during an 8-game losing streak. It would be like trying to put out a 5-alarm fire with a squirt gun. I’m just going to step back and let this one burn itself out. The Royals will start winning again and Dayton Moore will be a bit less hated and people will start reacting a bit less emotionally.
I probably disagree with you.
by Scott McKinney on May 27, 2008 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't worry, NYRoyal
As soon as the Royals win 4 a row, I’ve got a treat lined up for you.
Although at this point, I’m worried I may have to lower the threshold to 3.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on May 27, 2008 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
It will come. Baseball seasons have streaks. Good and bad ones.
It would be interesting if Royals fan would overreact as much in winning streaks as in losing streaks. And what would be best is if fans wouldn’t overreact to any kind of streak.
I probably disagree with you.
by Scott McKinney on May 27, 2008 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Is it possible for
us to overreact as positively as we are reacting negatively now? Wow. That’d be cool. Imagine if we won four or five games in a row and Butler got hot and we had three fanposts entitled:
“Billy Butler: Hall of Famer!”
“I want to have Butler’s children!”
“Billy Butler will take us to the World Series!”
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
I'm saving up
But when the Royals are winning, fans won’t have as much “helpful advice” for the team.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on May 27, 2008 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
It's amazing how much Moore and Hillman change
When we are on hot streaks, Moore and Hillman are geniuses. When we are on cold streaks, they are beyond incompetent.
I say blow the team up. Trade everyone for prospects and let’s do rebuilding right this time! We’ll be ready to contend again by 2015! Book it.
I probably disagree with you.
by Scott McKinney on May 27, 2008 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Matt Wieters plus the next Upton brother NOW!
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on May 27, 2008 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Gordon + Butler +Greinke for Wieters?
We gotta be realistic about this team and look to the future.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on May 27, 2008 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Lawl
you think we have overreactions now? Imagine if that deal went through…
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
is it really an overreaction to call for pena to be replaced?
he’s been awful for about 200 games for us now…and he’s getting worse
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on May 27, 2008 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions
No, it is not
I think both I and NHZ were speaking to the overall nature of the comments on this site over the past 5+ days.
I probably disagree with you.
by Scott McKinney on May 27, 2008 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions
No.
It’s not. I think he should be replaced too, but I recognize that neither Aviles or Callaspo is the SS of the future anyway. And I think it’s a little silly that people see Pena’s bad performance as such a damning indictment of GMDM.
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
i dont think that either of those guys is a long term solution...
but the fact that DM/TH think its a good idea to even think about starting someone like Pena every night says something to me…as does the fact that dayton gave away something (however useless Cordier may become) for someone with an absolutely dreadful track record in the minors who was about to be DFAd says something to me.
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on May 27, 2008 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
He was a stopgap
until the Royals find someone really viable. Cordier isn’t really anything that’s going to be missed anyhow. The thing is, with Berroa being demoted the only organizational options at the time were in the low minors or hurt. He’ll be out of your hair the next year the Royals win the division.
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
the way i see it..
should not be in any way hindering the development of someone who may be part of the future…callaspo isnt getting enough ABs b/c Dayton has a hard on for former braves…and flasy, yet inconsistent defense
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on May 27, 2008 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, but Callaspo may be the future at 2B
His development could have used some of the 148 PA wasted on TPJ.
Yes...
Haven’t I said about 93693456 times that I want Callaspo to get more PT at short?
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
But you're not saying it with enough emotion
Grit counts, even among fans.
I probably disagree with you.
by Scott McKinney on May 27, 2008 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Grit grit grit
dirt dirt dirty uniform mud mud headfirst slide GET CALLASPO PLAYING TIME at short grit grit…
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
When I see some more dirt on his uniform...
...then he’ll deserve more playing time. There’s no excuse for a clean uniform.
I probably disagree with you.
by Scott McKinney on May 27, 2008 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Blood!
There must be blood soaking through his uniform from his stomach! And he must play for a fictional team called the New York Knights! Only THEN can he play for my team.
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
You forgot aggression!
Add a
RAAAAWWWWRRRRRRR
(with apologies to the hilarious slayor, who made me laugh my ass off in the game thread yesterday)
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on May 27, 2008 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
So the GM does not deserve blame
for not fixing a mistake that was obvious before the season even started and has just gotten worse since then?
The response that Callaspo is not the future SS misses the point.
The losing streak has caused all sorts of overreactions, but the decision to keep playing Pena with a better option sitting on the bench deserves it.
How much blame should he get?
It’s not clear what he could or should have done to “fix” the SS problem.
I probably disagree with you.
by Scott McKinney on May 27, 2008 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
How about play Callaspo at SS?
This option was availabe since the trade.
Yes, and Callaspo
HAS got playing time at short, despite not being a regular shortstop in AAA.
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
Yes, Callaspo has gotten a good deal of SS exposure
...even though he’s not a SS. And Callaspo will get more PT as the season progresses.
I probably disagree with you.
by Scott McKinney on May 27, 2008 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Small sample size.
You have pointed out that Callaspo has be squeezed for PT by Pena. That works both ways.
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
Pena has twice as many PA as Callaspo
And Callaspo was moved off SS in the minors mainly because he was blocked in both Anaheim and Arizona. We went through all this at the beginning of the year.
No,
that’s not what I said. If everyone wants to just argue with their own strawmen, I’ll just stand aside.
What I’m saying is that the losing streak seems to have a lot of people overrreacting to the tune of critiquing the front office a disproportionate amount. Teams have losing streaks, even good ones. If everyone lost faith in the FO during every losing streak, baseball’s following would made up of a lot of fairweather fans.
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
I was responding to your statements that
“I recognize that neither Aviles or Callaspo is the SS of the future anyway” and “I think it’s a little silly that people see Pena’s bad performance as such a damning indictment of GMDM.”
What was the purpose of your “SS of the future” statement if not to downplay the decision to stick with Pena?
The nexus between Pena and Moore is there is a better alternative to Pena sitting on the bench, and for whatever reason, the GM sticks with the status quo. It is poor judgment regarding a fairly significant decision (as opposed to who is the backup catcher or who is the 12th man in the bullpen).
That was indeed the point.
Aviles, Callaspo, and Pena all have one thing in common, and that’s that they won’t be the starting shortstop of this team next year.
Given that we aren’t competing this year, it doesn’t really matter all that much in the long run who logs PT at SS. I’d like to see Callaspo there more often, but I don’t see it as any huge mistake on Moore’s part because I think he’s quite aware at this point that Pena isn’t the answer.
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
But as I pointed out,
the thing they do not have in common is that Callaspo will likely be starting for the team next year, and he is losing development time to a below-replacement level stand-in.
Moore’s failure to fix this problem shows bad judgment on two levels—he is hurting the team in the present and the future.
1) Moore fails to recognize that he has a better alternative to Pena on the bench—at no additional cost. He fails to do so even after Pena continues to perform at a historically awful level.
2) Moore fails to give playing time to next year’s likely starting 2B in favor of a non-prospect. Callaspo can’t go to the minors, so he loses development time on the bench. And no, 200 PAs here and there is not helping his development.
Do we know
that Callaspo is really that good? I know the trade for him was praised and that he’s always had good plate discipline. Just curious on how we know that he is our starting 2b next year?
by I need more Esteban on May 27, 2008 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions
All you need to know...
about the level of strung out fandom right now is that we have two fanposts and a front page story about how useless Tona Pena Jr. is.
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
At some point in June, most of the SS starts will be made by someone other than TPJ
The Royals are giving him more time and more rope than Royals fans are, but it really isn’t the end of the world that they are waiting 2 months longer than most fans and probably about a month longer than me to demote him to a part-time player.
I probably disagree with you.
by Scott McKinney on May 27, 2008 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
It's frustrating,
but I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: who starts at shortstop this year really doesn’t matter in the long term.
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
No, it doesn't
And there’s lots of clamor for Moore to move Grudz and/or German right now because we “pointlessly” have too many middle IFers and Grudz isn’t a part of the team’s future and Callaspo needs more PT, etc. But the time will come for those trades and May isn’t that time. TPJ is going to get demoted from full-time starter to part-time starter. One or both of Grudz/German will be traded when there are some motivated buyers. The great Aviles may even get his shot as a bench player. And then we’ll get incessant complaints about him being called up and not getting the playing time to prove himself. Where have you gone, Justin Huber…
I probably disagree with you.
by Scott McKinney on May 27, 2008 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Aviles doesn't even
have the track record in the low minors that all of us Huberophiles pointed at. We know Huber wasn’t really start material in the end, but Aviles is that much less of a starting option. And yet he’s the new working class hero of the Royals, now.
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
Huber wasn't really stasrt material?!?!?
No (sniff), no, (choke), you don’t mean. That. Take it back! Take it back! How could you be so cruel (sob).
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on May 27, 2008 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, I think they have
Hillman has stated that Pena’s hitting is a problem and that it can’t continue. He just doesn’t see it as a problem that demands an immediate change. He’s going to wait a bit longer to make the change than most of us would.
I probably disagree with you.
by Scott McKinney on May 27, 2008 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, well
As long as Hillman keeps letting Pena bat in the late innings with runners on while we’re losing (I guess because he’s worried that Callaspo’s glove will allow that four-run deficit to become five), his judgment’s already in question anyway.
Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.
Yeah, I think that is a clear mistake
I disagree with many moves Hillman has made.
I probably disagree with you.
by Scott McKinney on May 27, 2008 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Hillmans admittance
is similar to an alcoholics that says I have a problem but I can fix it myself.
sign Greinke a Evan Longoria type deal now.
I'd respect your opinion on Pena more if you didn't think he should be replaced by Aviles
I probably disagree with you.
by Scott McKinney on May 27, 2008 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions
You're right
I’ve tried to take over for you but it’s hard work.
by I need more Esteban on May 27, 2008 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I appreciate the effort
Without Don Quixote’s the windmills would win.
I probably disagree with you.
by Scott McKinney on May 27, 2008 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions
To put TPJ at #5
is way to low. We survived Guillens slow start because Butler carried us thru the first 2 weeks of the season so I think B-C kind of wave themselves off. Gload is a platoon player that really has no impact as he has been relegated to a defensive replacement. Our 2 main problems are Teahan and TPJ but TPJ’s defense is been almost as bad as his bat lately therefore he is our main prob.
I think it is a little too early to jump on Billy Butler’s case. He has hit 11 doubles and he’s on his first trip thru the majors for the most part. Lets look at his production in the second half. At that point he will pretty much have the same amount of time in as Gordon did coming into this year. Also what other options on the 40 man are you gonna run out there instead? Teahan? Time to cut ties and try to steal someone in exchange. Costa or Maier can’t do any worse. If you can get a prospect(1) for him give it a try.
sign Greinke a Evan Longoria type deal now.
In my case
I don’t think I’m jumping on Billy Butler. You are right, he’s only 22 years old. I’m just saying that it’s ONE of the reasons that our offense is struggling because he isn’t producing like he did early on. If he was hitting the way he did in April w/ Guillen hitting like he is in May, things would be a lot better right now.
by I need more Esteban on May 27, 2008 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Guillen has been a much bigger impact
“We survived Guillens slow start because Butler carried us thru the first 2 weeks of the season so I think B-C kind of wave themselves off”
Not really sure I get that. Pena also got off to a slow start during that time, why does he not get a pass like Guillen did? Fact is, Guillen is WAAAAY underperforming.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
D-Backs lineup
Ok, youth was the wrong word. Does inexperience work, though? The D-Backs young players are all mid-20’s guys with at least a year of MLB experience (save J.Upton) who have grown up around veterans like Eric Byrnes and Orlando Hudson. They have been in a pennant race and gone to an NLCS. There is a big difference with the D-Backs young players experience and the Royals.
by I need more Esteban on May 26, 2008 9:22 PM EDT reply actions
That Tompkins ad: Really Bad Innings
For those who don’t listen to the Royals on radio, there’s an omnipresent commercial in which a woman blurts “Honey, it says here the Royals lead the league in really bad innings.” The guy smugly corrects “no, that’s RBI—runs batted in.” Aside from the obvious hackery of the women-are-idiots-who-can’t-comprehend-sports gag, this ad grates because:
1) The Royals are literally the furthest squad from the top of the Runs Batted In standings.
2) The Royals probably DO lead the league in Really Bad Innings. Vindication, mocked wife!
LOL
Nice
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on May 27, 2008 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Damn Straight Will!
Pena is the biggest problem on the team, and I see no reason for hope. He just doesn’t seem likely to every improve significantly. And the most frustrating part of it all, Callaspo is right there on the roster gaining layers of dust and rust. Callaspo might not ever be a great SS but, damn it, clearly Pena is sink hole and Hillman should stop wasting playing time on him.
www.rockchalktalk.com for pretty good KU baseball coverage
Hillman Acknowledges Reality
At least somewhat.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=teamreports-2008-mlb-kan&prov=sportsxchange&type=team_report
Quote To Note: "If we don’t pitch, we don’t win. Every so often, maybe once every two weeks, we might be able to not pitch as well and still win because we have an offensive outburst."—Manager Trey Hillman
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on May 27, 2008 11:26 AM EDT reply actions
I say again
how can Mike Barnett not be found at least a little bit culpable for this?
Barnett has coached 4 inexperienced players in his time with the Royals. It’s my belief that the hitting coach can have the most impact with inexperienced hitters – vets like Guillen, DDJ, and Grud pretty much know their own game well enough by now.
Here’s my opinion of his work with these five:
Gordon: progressing very nicely
Butler: regressing alarmingly from last season. Plate discipline is still fine, but too many groundballs and the XBHs have dropped accordingly.
Teahen: continues to regress from 2006. It would help if the Royals acknowledeged what he is and moved him to 1st or 2nd in the lineup.
Pena: regressing at an astronomical rate (hard to do, considering he sucked in 07 already)
That’s a less-than-impressive resume, no?
TPJ isn't regressing
well, unless you mean “regressing to the mean.” As bad as he was last year, look at his minor league numbers. Last year’s performance in the majors looks more and more like a career year (not enough exclamation points available).
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on May 27, 2008 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
It Started To
Show at the end of last season; pitchers know they don’t have to throw him a strike. Ever. And, if they accidentally do, there’s little danger he’ll do anything with it.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on May 27, 2008 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
No danger?
he might BUNT on them!!!! 111 One!
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on May 27, 2008 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Foul, Maybe
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on May 27, 2008 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions
He's in for defense
Forget his offense and single digit OPS+. His fielding percentage and range factor are both below league average. So far this year, he has not even been an average defensive player.
You could make a case he ought to be replaced defensively.
by Tarnished Crown on May 27, 2008 12:20 PM EDT reply actions
We don't hate Pena; we hate what it reflects of DM/TH
No one on here believes that Pena is the reason we’re terrible or that releasing him with Aviles or Callaspo will make the Royals a contender.
But for many of us, Pena’s every day presence in the lineup indicates that DM/TH are just unthinking baseball traditionalists that care more about things like “pitch it, catch it, and hit it,” than things like statistics. We’re upset that Pena’s our everyday SS, but we’re horrified that our new manager apparently thinks Pena’s glove makes up for being the worst hitter in MLB. So much so that he won’t even pinch hit for Pena until the 9th.
Combine this Pena fetish with absurd “aggressiveness” on the basepaths, and many of us are very afraid of the DM/TH future.
by hippdoghipp on May 27, 2008 12:45 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I think there is something to that
Its what Pena represents that ticks off Royals fans, not so much what he actually does.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
Pena's
complete lack of adjustments pisses me off. The guy will not cut his swing down no matter what. If he cut down his swing and adjusted to the strikezones he might be worth it, but he won’t so send him away.
sign Greinke a Evan Longoria type deal now.
+1
I rec’d it, but it doesn’t have the “I’m just as right as you are!” nature of the +1…
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
And that was supposed to be a reply to the previous post by hippdoaskdnakdlgfkhlhu
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on May 27, 2008 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
"Biggest Problem"
Using Fangraphs’ Run Created (RC) numbers and Baseball References’ splits to identify MLB average performance by position, Gload has the biggest difference between his performance and the average for his position:
Gload 22 runs (30 RC for Avg 1B – 8 RC for Gload) (although some of that is less playing time)
Pena 16 runs (21 RC for Avg SS – 5 RC for Pena)
Butler 6 runs (26 RC for Avg DH – 20 RC for Butler)
Teahen & Guillen 7 runs (29 RC for Avg Corner OF – 22 RC for Teahen & Guillen)
RC is only for offensive contributions, but at this point in the season and based on last year’s advanced defensive metrics, defense would only affect the total by +/- 2-3 runs (e.g., Pena was +10 runs according to UZR last year, so assuming the same rating this year, he would be around +2.5 this year).
by Gopherballs on May 27, 2008 1:07 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
i question any stats that say that pena has been more than twice as productive as billy and even moreso jose
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on May 27, 2008 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions
"the biggest difference between his performance and the average for his position"
The numbers on the left represent the difference between the number of runs created by the average hitter at that position and the number of runs created by the Royal in question. For example, Pena has been 16 runs worse than the MLB average SS (21 RC for Avg SS – 5 RC for Pena). In this situation, a lower number means the player has performed better with respect to the MLB average at his position.
definitely my bad...i saw pena with a high number and i think my head almost exploded
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on May 27, 2008 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Interesting
i didn’t realize how bad Gload has been. Then again, as i said in the post, there’s good reason to believe he will improve. what TPJ is doing now is actually completely in line with his entire body of work.
Pena only looks good by comparison
because 1B (avg OPS = 794) and SS (avg OPS = 703) are on the opposite ends of the offensive spectrum. Gload also has played less than Pena, so his RC is closer than it should be (Gload 2.26 RC/27, Pena 1.19 RC/27). But, yeah, low OBP plus no power equals one lousy 1B, although he should rebound somewhat.
Just for fun, one missed opportunity that was available for a pro rata share of the league minimum was Frank Thomas. Despite the horrible start in Toronto, Thomas is now hitting 255/371/436, good for 25 RC.
How
are fangraphs and ESPN’s RC so much different. ESPN has Pena even lower at 2.7 RC and a .57 RC/27. Does fangraphs take into consideration ESPN calculations do not?
sign Greinke a Evan Longoria type deal now.
I don't know what ESPN uses
Fangraphs RC = ((H + BB – CS + HBP – GDP) * ((1B + (2 * 2B) + (3 * 3B) + (4 * HR) + (.26 * (BB – IBB + HBP)) + (.52 * (SH + SF + SB)))))/ (AB + BB + HBP + SF + SH)
The Hardball Times has Pena at 6 RC, which is on par with Fangraphs.
No no no!
Gload is done. See that giant metal fork sticking out of him?
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
I wish we had a real first baseman
Not that Butler isn’t or won’t be. But we certainly need a real 1B. And I’ve heard it mentioned many times on this site how it’s very easy to acquire a league average 1B (“easy for everyone by that idiot Dayton Moore). But who are these easy to acquire 1B’s? Ben Broussard? Chris Shelton? In reality, average 1B production isn’t that easy to find.
I probably disagree with you.
by Scott McKinney on May 27, 2008 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I actually think the Royals have been
very unlucky in that regard, actually. It seems like someone out of Shealy, Huber, and Butler should have worked out as a league average first basemen who could hold down the position defensively.
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
I think Butler will
And Gload will remain a useful bench player. And the Royals are going to have to get someone to play 1B/DH this offseason to go along with Butler. That’s lots of complaining about Gload, and I agree that he’s no 1B solution, but he’s one of the few options we have right now and he’s as decent as any of them unfortunately. The situation has to be addressed in the offseason and I’m confident that it will.
I probably disagree with you.
by Scott McKinney on May 27, 2008 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
statistically speaking
it would be very difficult to find an “average” 1B, but we should have at least equal chance at finding an above average 1B as below average 1B. The problem is that some teams must be hoarding the above average ones.
This space intentionally left blank.
There's a difference between Average and Median
If you list all of the MLB 1B’s, we should have at least an equal chance of finding a 1B above the median as below the median. But there are some really, really good 1B’s which skew the average considerably higher than the median. So no, it is not as easy to find an above average 1B as a below average 1B.
I probably disagree with you.
by Scott McKinney on May 27, 2008 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions
no, wait, I'm at least half-right
Your mode of reasoning is slightly off-center. Either that, or you’re just being mean.
This space intentionally left blank.
by marbotty on May 28, 2008 2:04 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well crafted
I probably disagree with you.
by Scott McKinney on May 28, 2008 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Minor update
I’m sure some of you saw it Blake Wood was called up to NW Arkansas. He last pitched May 23 so his spot in the rotation should come up mid week this week.
His stats are ridiculous over the last 6 starts.
40.1 IP 15 H 9 BB (.595 WHIP) 43 K’s 1.56 ERA Nice Ratio over 4-1 K-BB ratio
sign Greinke a Evan Longoria type deal now.
I have a feeling
the game thread is going to be interesting tonight.
Complete overreaction to anything bad…...Complete overreaction to anything good + huge pessimism that it will just turn bad…....Cursing the likes of any slumping Royal.
Ah to be a Royals fan during an 8 game losing streak….......I can’t wait, hope to see everyone there.
by I need more Esteban on May 27, 2008 5:50 PM EDT reply actions
There will be very few positive comments in the game thread
Even if the Royals score 10 runs in the first, score in every inning after that and Bannister pitches a shutout. The comments will be more “it’s about time” and “why the hell couldn’t they have scored some of those runs over the weekend.” This team is going to have to win a few before the fanbase stops pouting.
I probably disagree with you.
by Scott McKinney on May 27, 2008 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions
depends on who does well
people are turning the corner on Guillen, people seem to love Gordon, etc.
current wrath is more Teahen/TPJ/Gathright based
Yeah
I’m even starting to get frustrated with Teahen and I’ve always been one of his biggest supporters. I’m still holding hope that he will come out of it, but it’s getting harder and harder.
by I need more Esteban on May 27, 2008 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions
He'll hit better than he has been of late
But who knows how much better.
I probably disagree with you.
by Scott McKinney on May 27, 2008 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions
The problem with Teahen is very simple.
He’s a #2 hitter.
That’s it, that’s all.
Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.
Probably
But is SLG going forward going to be 400, .425, .450 or .475? We really don’t know yet.
I probably disagree with you.
by Scott McKinney on May 27, 2008 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, I could argue that
but I won’t, ‘cause it’s not the point.
Teahen is a good baserunner with good OBP skills, and I strongly suspect his sinking BA is a direct result of being put in the middle of the order and expected to hit for power. The Teahen I saw last year, the one who hit well and even had 31 doubles and 8 triples but just didn’t have any home-run juice, can handle the bat.
2, moving Grudz down to the bottom third of the order so the whole thing isn’t a giant sucking chest wound. Or even leadoff with Grudz staying at #2, since DDJ is sort of an adventure on the basepaths, with DDJ moving down to 6/7. Have Olivo bat 6th when he’s in the lineup.Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.
I'm interested
to see the lineup tonight. I’m wondering if Hillman will shake things up like you’ve suggested. He has done some of it in the past.
by I need more Esteban on May 27, 2008 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions
My point is that we don't know quite how much power he has
He certainly doesn’t look like a .500 SLG player, but there’s also no reason to believe he’s a sub-400 SLG player either. So where between that will he fall? There’s a big difference between .400 and .450 or .475.
Also, I don’t think where a guy hits in the order has much to do with how well he hits. And, do you really want to have 3 lefties at the top of the order so that an opposing team can bring in a LOOGY for outs late in a game?
And, is it ever good idea to move a guy hitting well down to the bottom of the order so that the bottom of the lineup improves? That sounds very, very backwards.
I probably disagree with you.
by Scott McKinney on May 27, 2008 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I know you didn't just
argue against stacking the lineup with lefties in one spot because then they’re easier to get out, and then turn around and claim that breaking up the Chain of Automatic Outs at the bottom of our order is backwards. If breaking up the Unholy Duality/Trinity is backwards, so is breaking up a platoon disadvantage. I simply refuse to accept that you of all people could suffer a critical breakdown in logic of that nature, so I’m just going to assume I’m hallucinating and come re-read it later.
You don’t think where a guy hits in the order has much to do with how well he hits, because you completely reject the idea that psychology has anything to do with anything. I will, again, point out that since it’s not something we can measure, it’s merely a matter of opinion… and since it is more intuitive to assume such things do in fact affect players than to assume they are heartless automatons who don’t allow expectations to alter their approach, I’ll just leave it at that. ;)
Lastly, part of my comment got eaten. It should have read:
One idea would be to have Teahen at #2, moving Grudz down to the bottom third of the order so the whole thing isn’t a giant sucking chest wound.
Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.
I did something
argue against stacking the lineup with lefties in one spot because then they’re easier to get out, and then turn around and claim that breaking up the Chain of Automatic Outs at the bottom of our order is backwards. If breaking up the Unholy Duality/Trinity is backwards, so is breaking up a platoon disadvantage
The top of the order is much more important than the bottom of the order for two reasons that I’m sure you already know. Therefore, doing something disadvantageous for the top of the order in favor of something advantageous for the bottom of the order makes no sense and hurts the lineup overall. Moving a good #2 hitter down in the lineup hurts the top of the lineup and helps the bottom of the lineup. That’s not a good net exchange for the lineup. Even though I think Teahen is a very capable #2 hitter (like Grudz), replacing him with a lefty hurts you late in games where a LOOGY could be used to get all 3 out.
You don’t think where a guy hits in the order has much to do with how well he hits, because you completely reject the idea that psychology has anything to do with anything.
I wouldn’t quite say that. I think fans and broadcasters do overrate the psychological effects of just about everything. More importantly, I think that neither you nor I know much about the psychology of things like lineup position. We can guess at it. Our guesses would be logical, but who knows if they are accurate. I could make a good argument for being moved up or down in a lineup being a positive or a negative.
I probably disagree with you.
by Scott McKinney on May 27, 2008 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Well...
I can understand frustration with the general rabble going off on psychological effects, and I can even understand skepticism when someone logical brings them up.
But it’s obvious that Teahen’s skill set is more suited for the top of the order. He’s someone you drive in, not someone you hope drives everyone else in. I suggest moving Grudz down because just swapping Teahen and Grudz does nothing, and I think Teahen’s speed plays better than Grudz’s lack of same at the top. But if you’re that worried about L-L-L, then bat Teahen leadoff, leave Grudz #2, and move DDJ down since he apparently does still have some pop in his bat.
Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.
Teahen works at the top of the order and their skill set is swappable
It just creates a lefty-lefty-lefty problem.
The problem with moving DeJesus down is that he’s one of the better hitters on the team and moving him down in the order gives him fewer PA’s per game and it moves possibly the best OBP out of the place where the best OBP on the team should be.
Again, if you’re making lineup changes with the intent of improving the bottom third of the order, then the tail is wagging the dog.
I probably disagree with you.
by Scott McKinney on May 27, 2008 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Now that you mention "the best OBP"
You know who’s 1-2-3 on the team, right? Gordon, Grudz, Teahen. Not DDJ.
So yeah, Teahen/Grudz/Gordon at the top.
Of course, our genius manager has decided Gathright will bat 2nd tonight…
Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.
Who do you think will have the best OBP on the team from now until the end of the season
I wouldn’t make up every lineup based on how players have performed so far this season. One must also take into account how you think they’ll perform going forward. Unless you think DeJesus has suddenly become a different player, then he NEEDS to be at the top of the lineup everyday he plays. DeJesus is and has been one of the best hitters on the team. Moving him to the lower half of the lineup makes no sense and only serves to make scoring runs even more difficult for this team. We don’t need that.
I probably disagree with you.
by Scott McKinney on May 28, 2008 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
You didn't look at their stats from 2006/7 before asking me that?
If you had, I think you’d know my answer: “Honestly, it doesn’t really matter because they’re about the same.”
Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
