Tony Pena is not our hitting problem

by cmkeller on May 7, 2008 12:57 PM EDT

With the Royals having so much trouble getting runs on the board, one of the things I hear most is "sit Pena in favor of Callaspo." True, TPJ can't hit well, and who wants a black hole in their lineup? But the Royals' recent woes can't be pinned on him. Check out the difference in these Royals hitter before and after the west coast trip that had started on April 14:

April 13 and earlier:

Royals W/L: 7-5

Mark Grudzeilanek: .308/.333/.386

Mark Teahen: .286/.452/.400

Alex Gordon: .333/.604/.360

Billy Butler: .386/.477/.449

Tony Pena: .033/.033/.064

After April 13:

Royals W/L: 7-13

Mark Grudzeilanek: .241/.310/.379

Mark Teahen: .236/.306/.304

Alex Gordon: .246/.287/.337

Billy Butler: .222/.292/.291

Tony Pena: .220/.254/.233

The Royals were not expecting major offense out of Tony Pena. He is what he is, a light-hitting shortstop with great defensive skill. As it is, his hitting during the team's down period is light-years better than it was when the team was doing well, so how could he be held responsible for the problems the Royals have had lately?

The problems here are Gordon, Butler and Teahen, and to a lesser extent (only because he's not big in the future plans), Grudz. And of course, Guillen, but he was bad in both the before and after periods. What could have caused these guys to collapse like this? It's not just regression to a mean from an early small sample size, it's an en masse slump. If the guys we're really counting on as hitters don't hit, what can we possibly do? Callaspo replacing Pena is a band-aid, not a cure.

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No one is blaming

the slump on Pena, but he sure doesn’t help. Callaspo makes much more sense as a starter and Pean as a defensive replacement.

Sign Alex Gordon to a life time contract!!!

by eboston on May 7, 2008 1:14 PM EDT 0 recs

pretty rough

I, for one, am getting tired of seeing Grudz play.

"So whattya say, should we clean this place up?" - Tom Cruise

by DyeFan187 on May 7, 2008 1:15 PM EDT 0 recs

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Callaspo

is the cure to the Royals offense. However, the SS position does reflect appx. 10% of KC’s offense so an improvement would help. As soft as KC’s lineup is, they need several of the better hitters like Butler, Teahen, Gordon, Guillen to get hot. When they put up numbers like the last 20 games, it makes a difference.

Here is the thing for me with TPJ and Callaspo. Is the advantage of TPJ’s glove worth the difference in his hitting? Right, I would like to see Callaspo and German pick up more ABs for TPJ and Grudz. An improvement in the hitting would help KC win more games that the decrease on defense.

by daveyork on May 7, 2008 1:26 PM EDT 0 recs

Fire Barnett

How this guy, held over from the Buddy era, is still in his position, mystifies me. Say what you will about how relatively little effect a hitting coach has on a team, it’s time for a change. We have some key, cornerstone young hitters struggling to various degrees and we need someone to work with them. How much longer can our hitters struggle without anyone making at least a small connection to our hitting coach?

by cookierojas73 on May 7, 2008 1:29 PM EDT 0 recs

Firing Barnett is not the answer

I know I’ve said this before, but I doubt that spinning the merry-go-round that is the job of hitting coach for the Royals will do much to help. The fact is, Barnett has been given a lineup of largely impatient hitters, and he has to contend with a manager who has made some questionable decisions in regard to offensive strategy so far this year. A team’s woes at the plate are seldom truly the fault of the hitting coach, as he is more responsible for helping the batters with technique, not with dictating the philosophy of how the team’s batters take ABs.

by DarthYoshi on May 7, 2008 6:32 PM EDT up 0 recs

TPJ isn't the whole problem

and I don’t think anyone is saying that. However, although I don’t know whether Callaspo’s glove at SS would be good enough to give him a significant advantage over TPJ (although it’s hard to imagine how bad he would have to be on defense to nullify that advantage), that is one area where the Royals actually have someone available who can almost certianly hit better. Yes, Gordon, Butler, and Guillen are all slumping. But there aren’t better hitting options readily available to replace them even if it would be smart to do so. Callaspo is available to replace TPJ.

With TPJ’s current line, even if he was Ozzie Smith on defense, he’d be below replacement level.

Hope is not a strategy. And neither is playing Tony Pena every day. (Rany Jazayerli)

by devil_fingers on May 7, 2008 1:46 PM EDT 0 recs

Another thing that hurts

Is the fact we dont have a homer out of the 3 hole since opening week

A lot of you wont like me... by I assure you my opinion will be voiced GO ROYALS!

by focs on May 7, 2008 1:50 PM EDT 0 recs

Woops, DeJesus had 1 in texas. nevermind...

But still pathetic

A lot of you wont like me... by I assure you my opinion will be voiced GO ROYALS!

by focs on May 7, 2008 1:50 PM EDT up 0 recs

hey guys what about that guy named you know

bonds.. but wait where not a win now team right??? oo well screw it i am cool with joey gathright instead….....(sarcasm)

by Billybutlerformvp on May 7, 2008 2:45 PM EDT 0 recs

No, I say waste as much money right now as possible!

To hell with next year’s free agent class. Let’s just spend all of that money right now. 85 wins! We can do it!

I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on May 7, 2008 2:48 PM EDT up 0 recs

I like your style sir.

Lets get Bonds to play LF, Piazza to play catcher, Sosa to play RF, Julio Franco to play 1B, and lets see if we just cant pull of a blockbuster deal to get Moises Alou to play CF!!

Other Notes – Try and get Rich Aurelia to play 3B, Omar Vizquel to play SS, Well Grud to play 2B (LOL).. and there ya have it..

A lot of you wont like me... by I assure you my opinion will be voiced GO ROYALS!

by focs on May 7, 2008 2:57 PM EDT up 0 recs

Hey, if you're a fan that actually cares about the team winning, you'd really want the Royals to do this

If you don’t, then you must be scared of the wins and millions of dollars that would flow through the organization if they made these obviously great moves.

I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on May 7, 2008 3:04 PM EDT up 0 recs

Ridiculous...

Stating that Bonds doesn’t fit the Royals is one thing but by your logic that unless a team is sure they can play for the world series should ever sign a veteran free agent to a 1 year deal ever or they would be “wasting money”. Was Tomko a waste, he’s a one year deal? What about Olivio?

by djk royal on May 7, 2008 3:07 PM EDT up 0 recs

I didn't say that or anything like that

by your logic that unless a team is sure they can play for the world series should ever sign a veteran free agent to a 1 year deal ever or they would be "wasting money".

No, I didn’t state or imply anything like that. Nor does that logically follow from anything I said. As I’ve said about three dozen times, the Royals needed to improve this year. It is a rebuilding year, but the Royals needed to win some more games as well as develop talent both to increase revenues through the fanbase and to convince FA’s that they should take the big offers we make because we are going to be a contending team. So some smaller deals make sense, like Tomko, Olivo and perhaps Mahay. Spending, say, $10M on a guy like Bonds makes sense if he can make you a contending team. He can’t. I think this is an 80-win team. He’s worth about a net 5-6 wins. Getting us to 85 wins spends a lot of money and doesn’t get us even close to the playoffs.

I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on May 7, 2008 3:13 PM EDT up 0 recs

and sadly for all your smugness focs

rich aurilia and bengie molina both older plays would lead this halfassed assembled team in almost every offensive category if you look at their stats now

by Billybutlerformvp on May 7, 2008 3:09 PM EDT up 0 recs

"halfassed assembled team"

I don’t think you know much about how to assemble a team. Dayton Moore has done a good job. Of course we’re not there yet. You don’t rebuild over night. And you don’t rebuild by acquiring crappy, old, declining players like Aurilia and Bengie Molina. Good lord. This is getting really nonsensical now.

I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on May 7, 2008 3:18 PM EDT up 0 recs

your right this way

instead of putting butts in the seats and getting over .500 for the first time in like 5 yrs, it means nothing. lets not sign bonds for 10 million for 1 yr mind you which wouldent affect this years upcoming free agent class since he would go off the books. NOOO let us grossly overpay for the next head case not named jose guillen.

by Billybutlerformvp on May 7, 2008 3:04 PM EDT up 0 recs

Do you think Glass shelling out $10M more this year wouldn't affect how much he's willing to spend next year?

Get real…please. The “butts” Bonds would put in the seats wouldn’t even pay for his salary. But you’d feel much better about the Royals winning 85ish games than 80ish games, so let’s do it!!!!!!

I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on May 7, 2008 3:06 PM EDT up 0 recs

at the rate this terrible offense is going

your lucky if you crack 75 wins.

by Billybutlerformvp on May 7, 2008 3:07 PM EDT up 0 recs

Then Bonds would get us up to 80 wins

Wow, sign him at any price.

I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on May 7, 2008 3:09 PM EDT up 0 recs

wins are important

maybe youve been a royal fan for to long but what do you think the point is of playing the game… to win. why not get to 500 for the first time in 5 years. is it your money???? you should be happy ownership is willing to spend more.

by Billybutlerformvp on May 7, 2008 3:11 PM EDT up 1 recs

Because I care about building a team that can contend, get to the playoffs and then eventually win in the playoffs

You don’t do that by selling out for a win-now strategy

that doesn’t actually get you into contention

. Do you think 85 wins gives the Royals any chance to contend this year? Hell no. Not even close. Spending $10+M this year would definitley endanger the Royals FA budget for next year. THAT is when we will be acquiring another key player to build a contending team in 2009 or 2010. THAT is how you rebuild. You don’t rebuild with short-sighted moves that waste money now, leaving less money for something which can genuinely help the team in the near future.

I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on May 7, 2008 3:16 PM EDT up 0 recs

I have no idea why that is in a text box up there

I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on May 7, 2008 3:16 PM EDT up 0 recs

sure buddy thats why the royals miney management has allowed them to

retain their players right?? like damon,dye,beltran,mcdougal. if ownership isnt spending the money on keeping players than what are they spending it on???they even get money from the teams over the luxury tax so dont tell they dont have the money to upgrade their offense for one season. have you ever stopped and thought a guy like bonds could be an asset to the kids. for butler and gordan to know they dont have to bethe sole mashers on this club at the age of 22. if bonds can even help the kids get comfortale in the majors because pitchers throw fast balls to gordan and butler because they dont wanna face bonds im all down for that.

p.s
hows your prediction of bannister winning 15 games working out for you???

by Billybutlerformvp on May 7, 2008 3:24 PM EDT up 0 recs

Miney?

retain their players right?? like damon,dye,beltran,mcdougal. if ownership isnt spending the money on keeping players than what are they spending it on?

Wow, so much nonsense there, I hardly know where to begin. You do realize that we have different management now, right? You do realize that the Royals are spending more money now, right? You do realize that the Royals have shelled out a lot of money to FA’s since Moore was hired, right? You do realize that MacDougal sucks and was traded for at least one prospect who looks a lot better than he does right now, right?

have you ever stopped and thought a guy like bonds could be an asset to the kids.

Wow…just wow. I had to stop for a 10 minute laughing break on that one. Is he going to teach them now to take PED’s without getting caught? Is he going to teach them how to put themselves over the team? Is he going to teach them how to be a distracting presence in the clubhouse?

butler and gordan to know they dont have to bethe sole mashers on this club at the age of 22

Gordon’s 24, but let’s not let the facts get in the way of our emotional rants

hows your prediction of bannister winning 15 games working out for you?

First, I didn’t predict that Bannister would win 15 games, did I? I thought the bet was that two Royals pitchers would win 15 games. Of course, pitchers wins is an entirely stupid way of evaluating a pitcher, but you don’t care about that. Second, Bannister is on pace right now to win 15, so I’m feeling really good about it. You?

I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on May 7, 2008 3:32 PM EDT up 0 recs

as long as your feeling good about it.

by Billybutlerformvp on May 7, 2008 3:46 PM EDT up 0 recs

He's on pace right now to win 14. How should I feel about it?

And if you’ve watched him pitch throughout the year, you should feel good about him as a pitcher. If he doesn’t win 15, it will be the lack of offensive support, not his pitching that was the cause. So far, I haven’t seen a bit of analysis from you about Bannister. Just some bitching, some “he sucks” and some “he was a fluke.” Can you do better than that? Boy, I sure hope so.

I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on May 7, 2008 3:49 PM EDT up 0 recs

btw barrys not a good rolemodel how about saint guillen

lets take alook at his timeline shall we???
In 2003 Guillen had performing enhancement drugs sent to him. (found in the mitchell report)

The suspension by the Los Angeles Angels, for instance, just before the playoffs in 2004 after he objected to being pulled for a pinch-runner.

After all, Guillen played in only 69 games for Washington in 2006. He had Tommy John surgery on his right elbow in July. He had shoulder surgery and suffered injuries to his groin, rib cage, biceps and hand

In 07 he is outed in the mitchell report for buying illegal ontraband. meanwhile bonds is nowhere to be found.. you do understand that RIGGGHHHHTTT???? I know how much you love to say right at the end of your sentences…

by Billybutlerformvp on May 7, 2008 3:59 PM EDT up 0 recs

I don't think I ever said Guillen is a role model

Neither Guillen nor Bonds are role models. You are the one who said - inexplicably - that “Bonds could be an asset to the kids.” As I and others have pointed out, that’s silly.

I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on May 7, 2008 4:05 PM EDT up 0 recs

Bonds as "role model"?

Wow. That’s just… I don’t even know how to begin.

I don’t in any way agree with your general tone or insight.

I will say, though, that i wouldn’t be opposed to the Royals paying some bucks specifically to someone who could DH and play 1B to platoon with Butler and get Gload out of the lineup. If that were Bonds, I wouldn’t scream too loud. This assumes that we get an ironclad guarantee that the money comes only out of this year’s budget and in no way impacts next year’s alotment.

That said, I’d keep him in a sound proof bubble away from the rest of the players, crack it open 15 minutes before game time and shuffle him back into it immediately after the game. Any interaction between him and our players, fans or media is off limits.

by Big Guy on May 7, 2008 3:33 PM EDT up 0 recs

I certainly am not against replacing Gload

I’m not a big fan of Gload and he is insufficient as a 1B. I’m not against signing someone to play 1B or DH to replace Gload. I’m not even necessarily against signing Bonds if the price is right and if he’s willing to DH the vast majority of the time.

Of course I and others have said this many, many times: there’s no reason to believe that Bonds is willing to play for the Royals. But guys like billybutlerformvp don’t care. They’d much rather bash the team and the organization that realize that the discussion of signing Bonds is moot. It simply isn’t an option.

I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on May 7, 2008 3:40 PM EDT up 0 recs

only the media has a problem with bonds

and jeff kent. otherwise people generally like the guy. and its not like he was the only one doing it. Even george brett was caught cheating though with pine tar.

by Billybutlerformvp on May 7, 2008 3:46 PM EDT up 0 recs

It was a horrible day for Royals fandom

when the Feds handed down the indictment for that one!

Sorry, couldn’t resist. Carry on.

Hope is not a strategy. And neither is playing Tony Pena every day. (Rany Jazayerli)

by devil_fingers on May 7, 2008 3:49 PM EDT up 0 recs

You were trying to be funny right?

Pretty much everyone likes Bonds? Bonds PED use = Brett using pine tar? What are you smoking today? I think it has killed too many brain cells, maybe you should stop.

I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on May 7, 2008 3:50 PM EDT up 0 recs

you know what baseball prospectus has bannister at

Projected 2008 Finish is: 6-8, 5.19 ERA

your telling me your smarter than them??

by Billybutlerformvp on May 7, 2008 4:02 PM EDT up 0 recs

I'm so glad you brought that up

Bill James projected Bannister to have a 3.85 ERA. You’re telling me you’re smarter than him?

Of course the whole premise of your “smarter than them” argument is silly (at best). Projections from various systems are all over the place on Bannister, from ERA’s in the high 3’s to low 4’s to mid 4’s to low 5’s. Some smart people are going to end up being right about Bannister and some are going to end up being wrong. And, of course, W/L record is the most variable of the variables and the worst in evaluating any pitcher. If you’ve read anything from BP, THT or any sabermetrician, you’d know that W/L record is a crappy way to evaluate a pitcher. Do some reading.

I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on May 7, 2008 4:11 PM EDT up 0 recs

ok

seriously.

it’s “you’re” when replacing you are.

“your” indicates that you own the ‘smarter than them’, or that the ‘smarter than them’ belongs to you.

i know i haven’t capitalized anything in this post, but that was on purpose.

The first thing I know about someone in a KC hat is that they're loyal.

by grantfunk on May 8, 2008 10:32 AM EDT up 0 recs

technically even last yrs #s

for piazza offensively where better than shealy or gload. not that iam saying sign him.

by Billybutlerformvp on May 7, 2008 3:03 PM EDT 0 recs

Except that you're wrong

Piazza 275/313/414/727, 8 hr, 44 rbi
Gload 288/318/441/759, 7 hr, 51 rbi

But let’s not let facts get in the way. Piazza is older and costs more money. Let’s sign him!!!!!

I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on May 7, 2008 3:19 PM EDT up 0 recs

I think...

the title should read “Tony Pena isn’t our only hitting problem although he is a huge problem.”

by djk royal on May 7, 2008 4:05 PM EDT 0 recs

+1

a reasonable conclusion to the “debate.”

Hope is not a strategy. And neither is playing Tony Pena every day. (Rany Jazayerli)

by devil_fingers on May 7, 2008 4:16 PM EDT up 0 recs

My intention was

“Our team’s hitting problems cannot be laid at the feet of Tony Pena.” Yes, Pena is not a good hitter. But replacing Pena will not fix the real deficiency in the lineup – the guys who were expected to produce well, but have nosedived.

Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!

by cmkeller on May 7, 2008 4:17 PM EDT up 0 recs

Very true...

plenty of blame to go around.

by djk royal on May 7, 2008 4:20 PM EDT up 0 recs

Right

except that only a few (if anyone, I can’t think of anyone, anyway) thought that simply replacing Pena would be the solution. But it is the one thing that might be easily done at this point without trading or giving up on the other guys. I mean, if Butler and Gordon don’t improve (in the future), and I think they will, then the Royals are screwed anyway. We should expect them to improve.

Pena’s doing worse than we might expect even him to do, but not that much worse. Even a career performance by him would still require him to be pretty much be the best defensive SS ever to be above replacement level. So playing him less might help, that’s all.

Hope is not a strategy. And neither is playing Tony Pena every day. (Rany Jazayerli)

by devil_fingers on May 7, 2008 4:23 PM EDT up 0 recs

I like your...

signature line.

by djk royal on May 7, 2008 4:25 PM EDT up 0 recs

Tony Pena sucks

but signing Bonds would do nothing but lower my opinion of Glass and Moore. He has no class, he’s a cheater, and I think a significant portion of Royals fans would say away from the ballpark as a result of his signing.

If we are signing old guys, let’s get Tartabull and Balboni back.

by Dubya on May 7, 2008 4:20 PM EDT up 0 recs

could someone trick

george into getting a 4th silver bat in a 4th decade?

The first thing I know about someone in a KC hat is that they're loyal.

by grantfunk on May 8, 2008 10:35 AM EDT up 0 recs

Frustration is really setting in

We all want to see something change about the Royals, particularly because they aren’t that far out as of yet in a division that has started very slowly. Right now, I don’t know about you guys, but I’m finding it is very, very difficult to watch them. The offense is, frankly, awful right now. Good pitching, the best KC has had in a long time, is being wasted on nearly a nightly basis. It’s incredibly frustrating. The question is, what to do about this?

Sadly, there isn’t much that can be done. I don’t think billybutlerformvp is totally out of line in suggesting the addition of a veteran hitter for a one-year deal. Winning now does matter, even though we are obviously rebuilding. Fans are tired of the losing and non-competitive offense.

It’s clear to me that the team lacks production from at least one veteran who might take some pressure off Gordon, Butler & co. Of course, this is why they signed Guillen, so I think Dayton Moore agrees with me. Sorry to say that it hasn’t worked out as of yet…

The question is, how much would you budget at this point of the season to add a decent veteran hitter (such as Bonds, who I’ve got to believe is willing to sign for a lot less than $10 million at this point)? And would it be worth it (not just from a public relations standpoint, but in terms of blocking someone else, like a Shealy). I know Moore had gone on the record as saying that they want to “find out about some guys” this year (aside: I’m not sure there is anything else to find out about Ross Gload).

To me, the most immediate thing that can and should be done is to replace the hitting coach. I hate most of this team’s approach to hitting and have now for the last several seasons (Barnett’s tenure). Enough already.

by cookierojas73 on May 7, 2008 4:23 PM EDT 1 recs

Which was easier to watch?

1) The current team, with great pitching but unable to score enough runs to win, or

2) The late 90’s-early 00’s team, with Dye, Damon, Beltran, Sweeney and Randa mashing the ball, but opponents launching Suppan/Durbin/George meatballs into the seats with equal or greater frequency, and no lead safe from Bottalico and Roberto?

I guess the second one, because there was at least hope when we trailed going into the late innings. But bottom line is, there’s no substitute for having both.

Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!

by cmkeller on May 7, 2008 4:36 PM EDT up 0 recs

I say forget being selective

and just swing at the first good pitch. Try to work the count is hurting them. If you get a first pitch fastball swing.

by TXroyal on May 7, 2008 11:50 PM EDT 0 recs

is more swinging really the answer?

how long did we wait for TPJ to walk? i thought we had all drank the OBP kool aid.

The first thing I know about someone in a KC hat is that they're loyal.

by grantfunk on May 8, 2008 10:37 AM EDT up 0 recs

If you have a lamborghini

do you take it slow for the first three miles then see how fast it can go. No you floor it as soon as you start it. I’m not saying we have a team of superstars but if they have it in there mind to work the count they are missing pitches to hit. I could care less if the entire team never walks the rest of the season if they all start hitting it won’t matter.

by TXroyal on May 8, 2008 3:12 PM EDT up 0 recs

Also I drink no kool aid of any time

by TXroyal on May 8, 2008 3:12 PM EDT up 0 recs

i like great bluedini....

mmm, color changing powder…

The first thing I know about someone in a KC hat is that they're loyal.

by grantfunk on May 8, 2008 5:16 PM EDT up 0 recs

his defense does not make up

for him being a total liability on the offensive side.

by Billybutlerformvp on May 8, 2008 12:07 PM EDT 0 recs

now THAT is good analysis, thanks for sharing

Disclaimer: Comments may not be suitable for young children or women who are pregnant, or women who think they may be pregnant. Side effects could include nausea, dizziness, or yelling at the monitor in disbelief.

by MileHighKCfan on May 8, 2008 3:17 PM EDT up 0 recs