Gil Meche Everyone

by royalsreview on Jul 2, 2008 10:45 PM EDT Comment 44 comments

	W-L	G	GS	CG	SHO	SV	BS	IP	H	R	ER	HR	BB	K	ERA	WHIP
2008 - Gil Meche	6-9	18	18	0	0	0	0	108.1	109	59	57	13	37	82	4.74	1.35

Not a terrible effort (4 ER in 6 IP) from Gil, but not anything to be excited about either. Meche is nothing if not frustrating, at least in the eyes of this 'umble blogger. I know he's valuable, even if his ERA is below league average this year, simply for the innings and stability. Still, he leaves me feeling like he's the lamest #1 starter ever.

Oh, and Mike Aviles has produced twelve outs the last two games.

But hey, Trey's hackers managed ZERO walks against one of the wildest starters in the American League. Cabrera only needed 105 pitches to complete the game, despite allowing seven hits. Incredible.

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Agreed.

1. Gil is frustrating to watch. It seemed as if he didn’t want to throw to any location other than the outside corner in the early innings. And watching batters foul off 1338394 pitches when he’s got two strikes just adds to the frustration. Aside from being our Opening Day starter, is there any real debate that Grienke is the true #1 of the staff?

2. Aviles has been brutal/regressing lately. Some of this had to be expected, but 12 outs is killer. I doubt that many will be clamoring for TPJ’s offensive arsenal anytime soon, though.

3. (Insert Dwight Schrute impersonation) QUESTION: “Is part of our hacktastic approach at the plate due to Buddy Bell’s insane whining for ‘more agression’ last year carrying over into our habits this year?” Granted, the new guys (Guillen, Olivo, Aviles) don’t walk much and weren’t here for Buddy’s genious…..so direct that question for our holdovers from the Buddy era.

by Fernando Vina School of Linguistics on Jul 2, 2008 11:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Of course Meche isn't a #1 starter, in any meaning of the term

He isn’t an ace and he isn’t the Royals best SP. And, it’s amazing how quickly Aviles’s OPS has fallen. After tonight’s 0-fer, he’s got to be around .800. He was up over 1.000 a week or so ago.

"Is part of our hacktastic approach at the plate due to Buddy Bell’s insane whining for ‘more agression’ last year carrying over into our habits this year?"

If managers/coaches had that much effect on the hitting approach of their players, then Hillman would have been equally effective in changing their approach as Bell was in making them aggressive. The reality is that coaches and managers really don’t affect approach much at all. They didn’t draw many walks last year under an “aggressive” manager and they aren’t drawing many walks this year under a more patient, OBP-oriented manager. It isn’t about the managers; it’s about the players. They are who they are.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Jul 2, 2008 11:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Aviles's WPA is also probably taking a massive hit

by royalsreview on Jul 3, 2008 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, the GIDP's and leaving the bases loaded have really hurt

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Jul 3, 2008 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The effect of coaching is probably true

But I should point out that Buddy was there two years, while Trey has been here about four months.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Jul 3, 2008 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

TPJ NOW!

i’m drunk and on vacation. sorry.

by blue bandwagon on Jul 3, 2008 2:06 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I do believe

Brian Anderson, Jose Lima, and Scott Elarton were the lamest #1 starters ever.

And yes, I know they were never considered “aces” but its all just semantics. Be thankful this pitching staff is at least competent, lest ye forget the the rest of the decade.

by raefzilla on Jul 3, 2008 2:07 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

good point

by royalsreview on Jul 3, 2008 2:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Will, I don't like to bark at you about stuff

but it bothers me that after a pair of games when we drew six - SIX - walks each game without any acknowledgment of the fact, we draw zero and BAM, “god, we don’t walk.”

The team’s walk rate is up drastically over the early part of the season. Yeah, tonight was a hacktastic mess, but let’s not throw the baby under the bus.

Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.

by jonfmorse on Jul 3, 2008 2:19 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

point taken

it just seems more glaring when control is the perpetual issue with Cabrera

still, point taken

by royalsreview on Jul 3, 2008 2:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

We are

Dead last in walks drawn in all of baseball.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Jul 3, 2008 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yikes!

That’s scary. Adding Guillen and Olivo, who are both typically low OBP guys, to an already hacktastic team sort of made this predictable though.

by djk royal on Jul 3, 2008 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

But the complaints...

...about walking are legit because we’re not being opportunistic. This game presented a strong opportunity to display patience, and we goofed. – TL

by timlacy on Jul 3, 2008 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

WHY CAN'T WE BEAT THE FUCKING ORIOLES???

I REGISTERED JUST TO SAY THIS. I AM ANNOYED. I WILL NOW GET DRUNK AND PASS OUT JUST TO SPITE THE ROYALS. GOOD NIGHT AND GOOD LUCK.

by suzzer on Jul 3, 2008 3:44 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Mark Teahen says,

“Well, you sure showed us. We feel really bad now.”

Jose Guillen, on the other hand, doesn’t give a (bleep) that you’re drunk and passed out.

Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.

by jonfmorse on Jul 3, 2008 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Its a curse

When we first came into the league, I think the O’s won like their first 18 games against us.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Jul 3, 2008 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cabrera

Will, I’m guessing your frustration (like mine) mainly stemmed from the fact that it was Cabrera on the mound last night. Although he is nowhere near as bad as he used to be, this guy has always been wild and annually walks more batters than just about anyone, it seems. Yet he has now defeated KC handily twice (he pitched a three-hit, one-run complete game at KC on May 8). Bob Dutton in the KC Star sums up our frustrations pretty well:

About Cabrera, it’s inexplicable how he morphs into a Cy Young candidate whenever he encounters the Royals. He was 0-3 with four no-decisions and a 6.21 ERA in his seven previous starts.
"It’s good to have a good game," he admitted. "It’s been a long time since I had one like that."

Cabrera, 6-4, rolled through the Royals for his second complete game of the season by yielding just two runs and seven hits. He struck out two and walked none in a brisk 105-pitch effort.

Games like last night’s just drive me crazy, despite some of the progress the team has shown in being a little more patient as hitters. For once, let’s kick a pitcher when he’s down instead of being just the tonic he needs to get his season back on track…

by cookierojas73 on Jul 3, 2008 8:00 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

In all fairness,

Cabrera was just about due for a competent outing.

A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.

by NHZ on Jul 3, 2008 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

We were due for an offensive explosion!

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Jul 3, 2008 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes, well,

not every day can be a Gloadesque day.

A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.

by NHZ on Jul 3, 2008 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

A couple of things happened after the game last night

Ryan, Split and Joel were discussing the outing and saying basically that Gil was not fooling anyone. They were basically all over every pitch, Ryan said. Gil just has enough stuff that they weren’t absolutely rocking him. Ryan was wondering aloud whether Gil was “tipping” his pitches, which is exactly what it looked like during the game.

the other is the little “meeting” between Trey and Bob McClure in the dugout after the game. We don’t know exactly what Trey was saying, but in the postgame interview he said that Gil needs to be able to work more aggressively inside. I’m sure that had something to do with the conversation.

if he can figure out how to fool ‘em and/or scare ‘em a little more, he could be a really good no. 2 guy.

Nobody will celebrate harder when the Royals make the playoffs!!

by juano on Jul 3, 2008 9:17 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs

"Tipping" pitches is baseball vernacular for "my dog ate my homework"

by Gopherballs on Jul 3, 2008 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Aviles OBP update:

.321, 30 off his batting average. Not good.

Still, the .485 SLG still leaves him as a significant plus thus far.

A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.

by NHZ on Jul 3, 2008 9:56 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

OPS update

.806

He’s lost 209 points of OPS in 8 days. I hope he stops the trend.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Jul 3, 2008 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oh,

and for your Probably Totally Useless Stat of the Day, opponents are hitting .319/.382/.565 off Meche in the fifth inning.

A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.

by NHZ on Jul 3, 2008 10:10 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Remember Wes Bankston?

He was a Royal for like two seconds? Well, he was on our 40 man roster, not our active roster. Well he’s in the big leagues now, for Oakland. He was hitting .275/.316/.491 with 14 home runs in AAA.

I’m not saying he’s going to turn into some stud in the big leagues. What I am saying is that Ross Gload sucks.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Jul 3, 2008 10:35 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

You'll find no argument here

Gload is terrible, one of the worst regulars in baseball. I wish we’d give Shealy a shot to fail one more time rather than continue to give PT to Ross.

A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.

by NHZ on Jul 3, 2008 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Blasphemers,

Defense at first base is WAAAAAAY more important than those stupid fringe stats like OPS and SLG!!!!

Sincerely,
David McCarty and Doug Mientkeiwicz

Nobody will celebrate harder when the Royals make the playoffs!!

by juano on Jul 3, 2008 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

+1 on Shealy

While I’m not as down on Gload as some, we need a first baseman with a high OPS. Period. End of story. – TL

by timlacy on Jul 3, 2008 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'll defend Will

Yes, the Royals have been drawing more walks over the past few weeks – but they still remain last in the league for the season.

The inning that got me completely frustrated was the 7th. FOUR PITCHES BY CABRERA!
This after Splitt and Ryan were about coming unglued in the 6th, emphatically stating that Cabrera was hurting!

I know this is primarily the fault of the player’s approach – but I still think the batting coach and manager can share some blame. There is NO REASON to swing at the first pitch inthe 7th inning, ESPECIALLY after the first one or two outs have already been made so quickly, and ESPECIALLY when the team needs TWO BASERUNNERS before they can even get the tying run to the plate!

by loyal2sdad on Jul 3, 2008 12:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

if coaches and managers don't impact a player's approach at the plate

why are they even there? I don’t get this and it is probably because I have never played baseball at an organized level, but I did play sports in high school and college and if I completely ignored my coaches, there would have been consequences (picking splinters out of my butt after being chewed out).

The concept of progress acts as a protective mechanism to shield us from the terrors of the future. - Collected sayings of Muad'Dib

by buddyball on Jul 3, 2008 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Managers and coaches

Why are they even there?

Well, the manager is there for a lot of reasons that don’t have anything to do with teaching/training (putting a lineup together, in-game decisions, leader of men stuff). As far as the hitting coach, I think he’s there mostly for tradition. Why is the first base coach there? They don’t do anything. It’s just tradition. Actually, I think the hitting coach can do some things. Like they can analyze video of a player and see if anything in his stance, swing has changed and let the player know if he’s doing or not doing something. There are some mechanical things a hitting coach can help with. But they aren’t going to be able to change the hitting approach of men who have been playing professional baseball for usually 4+ years as well as some kind of organized baseball for many more years than that. In high school, everyone is still learning the game. In MLB, a player’s approach is pretty much set. I kind of think blaming Hillman and Barnett about them not taking more pitches or drawing more walks is kind of like blaming them because the Royals haven’t hit more home runs. It’s not up to the coach or manager.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Jul 3, 2008 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

"Coaches" are only

...not valuable if one over-values their teaching ability/role. Coaching, however, has never just been about teaching. Coaching is about encouragement and helping others make the best of themselves. The same people who undervalue the psychological component of the game will be the same ones who think coaches are useless.

Look at what Piniella has done in Chicago over the past two years if you want a pseudo-empirical example of how coaching improves a team (if not any one individual player). – TL

by timlacy on Jul 3, 2008 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

To continue my Chicago example, ...

...I think it took the team one year to absorb the Gerald Perry coaching style. I don’t know exactly what Perry and Piniella have taught them, but they’re definitely taking more pitches and being selectively aggressive.

On KC, Barnett’s had an adequate period to make a difference, but hasn’t. It’s been time for a change for at least two months. – TL

by timlacy on Jul 3, 2008 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think there's a middle ground.

For instance, I think Hillman personally spending all that time working one-on-one with Butler at first base is an example where it really matters—not just in the raw teaching aspect, but in that Hillman did it himself rather than delegating the task. That tells the player something, it instills the manager’s ethic, and it’s the difference between a Hillman and … oh, I don’t know, I’m sure someone can come up with a manager who has zero interest in individually working with a player on skills.

However, I also think that certain things are effectively set in stone by the time a player reaches the show. You simply cannot turn a Dominican into a walk machine for the most part, you can’t teach Joey Gathright to drive the ball with authority, and you can’t teach Tony Pena to make contact. You can make suggestions, but really any changes there are going to have to come from the player.

Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.

by jonfmorse on Jul 3, 2008 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not, Buddy Bell, that's for dang sure! Look out how he helped John Buck's production!

I’m sure someone can come up with a manager who has zero interest in individually working with a player on skills.

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Jul 5, 2008 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think it was the increase in talent over the past two years much more than Piniella's influence

A manager is worth maybe 3-5 wins a year. Maybe.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Jul 3, 2008 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

well, ok

then we need to not blame managers/coaches when things beyond their control go bad and avoid praising them when things beyond their control go well. it is fun, however, to grouse about coaching, as it is the easy target. plus, there is the double switch issue when playing in a NL ballpark…

The concept of progress acts as a protective mechanism to shield us from the terrors of the future. - Collected sayings of Muad'Dib

by buddyball on Jul 3, 2008 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's not an even balance.

A manager, in general, can’t win you ballgames beyond doing the things which anyone sane should do, but they can lose tons of games by being stupid. For instance, we don’t give a manager credit for choosing to play Barry Bonds over some replacement-level scrub (even though that decision, in and of itself, is worth double-digit wins for his team), but we will certainly criticize the manager who chooses to play the scrub rather than Bonds.

And that’s because the one decision is patently stupid, while the other is blindingly obvious.

Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.

by jonfmorse on Jul 3, 2008 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Value over Replacement Manager (VORM)

That concept is what governs my opinion of a manager. We can quibble over the usage of pitchers, use of the running game, lineups, etc. but if you compare any manager (including Hillman) to the baseline of what the vast majority of managers do, you won’t find much variance.

VORM differs from VORP in that I think there is much less difference among managers than players. I think there are few, if any, managers who are much better than average with regard to helping their team win.

I am very critical of Hillman, because I think he does some things which decrease the team’s chance of winning, but the reality is that his effect on the game is very, very small.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Jul 3, 2008 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I guess what it comes down to

is this, as a basic example: how many wins did TPJ cost us vs. Callaspo, is there any manager who would have said “screw this clown” and played Callaspo, and if so how many of those managers are there?

Like I said, I think the in-game tactical decisions mostly come out in the wash. Each one, unless it’s something really critical in the ninth inning (“Oh, we’re up by two and the bases are loaded with nobody out—let’s bring in Hideo Nomo!”), is an extremely small part of a win or loss. But the larger strategic decisions which affect entire months and seasons… those we can point to with more clarity. It’s why even though BP agrees that managers have small effect, they’ll still all tell you Dusty Baker sucks (obsession with “proven veterans” over guys that can play, lousy handling of pitching staffs, etc.).

Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.

by jonfmorse on Jul 3, 2008 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

A good question

how many wins did TPJ cost us vs. Callaspo, is there any manager who would have said "screw this clown" and played Callaspo, and if so how many of those managers are there?

That’s a very good question, and I can only speculate as to the answer. I have strong feeling that the vast majority of managers want a really good glove man at shortstop. And I think in a non-contending year most managers would give TPJ quite a bit of rope to see if his hitting could improve to the level where it is enough considering his plus defense. In this circumstance, I think most managers would let TPJ go for a couple of months, which is what Hillman did. Some would have given up on him a month earlier. Some would have let him go longer. I think very, very few would have gone with Callaspo as the regular SS from opening day.

It’s why even though BP agrees that managers have small effect, they’ll still all tell you Dusty Baker sucks (obsession with "proven veterans" over guys that can play, lousy handling of pitching staffs, etc.).

Yes, they’ll tell you that Dusty Baker sucks, but I don’t think they’ll tell you that he has cost his teams more than handful of wins (although he may have ruined some good young arms). The sad reality is that the vast majority of managers prefer “proven veterans” over younger players with higher upside. It happens all the time.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Jul 3, 2008 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs