Please no!
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/07/yankees-eyein-1.html
Should the Jarrod Washburn deal fall apart, the Yankees are exploring an alternative in Brian Bannister for Melky Cabrera. Bob Dutton of the Kansas City Star writes,
"Nothing appears imminent, but the framework for a deal seems to exist because New York has already shown a willingness to part with [Melky] Cabrera. Add this: The Royals nearly obtained Cabrera in a trade-deadline swap two years ago for veteran outfielder Reggie Sanders before Sanders suffered an injury."
In this scenario, David Dejesus moves to left to make room for Cabrera in center. And Mark Teahen would get back to his natural position at first base. Cabrera is making $461,200, only $40,200 more than Bannister, and both are set to reach arbitration after this season.
The Yanks prefer Washburn but are in negotiations after the Mariners rejected an offer of Cabrera and Kei Igawa for the lefty veteran. Seattle might want Brett Gardner as well as for the Yankees to take on all of Washburn's $14MM contract through next year.
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I don't particularly trust this source but still
That’s a retarded idea. As much as I hate pitchers that pitches on “smart” like Bannister, I don’t hate them quite as bad as an average-below average CF that can’t hit. Especially if it pushes an equal defensive CF in DeJesus in to left where his bat is worth a lot less.
by playingwithfire on
Jul 27, 2008 2:10 PM EDT
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Melky > Gathright
Move Rosa to the rotation… he sure cant be any worse than bannister right now… then move cortes up to triple a… i think its a great idea..
Yasuhiko Yabuta is to Major League Baseball as Drew Carey is to The Price is Right
by focs on
Jul 27, 2008 3:47 PM EDT
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I don't think you move Banny
For a fourth OF.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on
Jul 27, 2008 4:14 PM EDT
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+1
Melky is a pretty good 4th OFer. Not even a very good 4th OFer. And if we acquire him, he might become fixture in the lineup for years. And he can’t hit, period. This would be really, really stupid.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on
Jul 27, 2008 5:04 PM EDT
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wait...its alright to give up on melky, but i cant give up on Teahen?
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on
Jul 27, 2008 5:08 PM EDT
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even though melky's 23 and teahen is 27
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on
Jul 27, 2008 5:10 PM EDT
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Melky and Teabag are two different players
...and Teabag is the better one of the two.
Teahen’s career line: .268/.334/.422
Cabrera’s career line: .269/.332/.378
The two are basically the same when it comes to average and OBP, but despite the lack of power Teahen has for a COFer, his SLG is nearly 45 points higher than Melky’s, and his career OPS+ is 10 points higher.
Cabrera may be younger, but there has been no indication that he will ever be able to hit for any sort of power, and he doesn’t even have Gathright’s ability to steal bases. He would be a far worse offensive liability than would Teahen.
by DarthYoshi on
Jul 27, 2008 5:16 PM EDT
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the difference is that its likely that cabrera will improve some...
maybe immensely…but its far less likely for teahen.
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on
Jul 27, 2008 5:22 PM EDT
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Teahen is what he is, I agree
but what I am saying is that even if Cabrera still has the ceiling to keep improving (which he likely does), there is no indication that he will be anything more than a light-hitting OFer who does a decent job of getting on base. The Royals just don’t need an outfielder like that.
by DarthYoshi on
Jul 27, 2008 5:24 PM EDT
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Teahen is much better than Cabrera already
And while Melky is younger, his numbers have dropped significantly each of the last 3 years. Shouldn’t one be concerned that he’s not getting better; he’s actually getting worse.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on
Jul 27, 2008 5:24 PM EDT
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and teahen isnt?
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on
Jul 27, 2008 5:54 PM EDT
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Teahen may be getting worse, but he's at a higher level
He’s staying consistently significantly better than Melky.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on
Jul 27, 2008 6:52 PM EDT
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You can give up on Teahen
I’ve come to the conclusion that Teahen isn’t going to be a good power hitter again. He may well be a .425 SLG guy, but I’m guessing that’s about it.
And, Melky has never had a season as good as Teahen’s best season. And I think most of Melky’s seasons have been worse Teahen’s career average. Teahen > Melky.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on
Jul 27, 2008 5:12 PM EDT
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I love it.
This is a great deal for us. Bannister is 27 and pans out to be an average MLB player from what we’ve seen. Cabrera is 23 and has been in the league for 3 years. He came up as a 19 year old in the NY spotlight. A relaxation of media attention could be just what he needs. He’ll be under our control for several more years. These are the beginning of the prime of his athletic days. I think it’s worth a shot. Maybe we can throw Olivo in becuase they are looking for a catcher and get one of their pitching prospects.
What do you think?
by 306008 on
Jul 27, 2008 4:10 PM EDT
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In all likelihood, we would be better served by letting Olivo decline his option at the end of the year
and take a compensatory sandwich pick rather than get some C+ pitching prospect from the Yanks’ farm system (assuming Olivo manages to maintain his Type B status through the last couple months of the season).
I don’t think this would be a good trade for the Royals-Cabrera is essentially a slightly better Joey Gathright whose OBP has been steadily declining since 2006 and who can’t slug over .400 for the life of him. The last thing we need is another light-hitting outfielder-we have plenty of those in Omaha. I know we’d be selling low if we were to trade Bannister now, but this is selling quite low. If Bannister were to ever regain his 2007 form, this would go down as an awful trade—not quite as bad as the Perez-for-Dye trade, but pretty damn bad.
by DarthYoshi on
Jul 27, 2008 5:04 PM EDT
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Researched
Looked at some of the Yankees pitching prospects. Let’s do this. Bannister and Olivo for Cabrera, LHP Phil Coke, and if they’ll give up one of these guys, maybe Alan Horne, Dan McCutchen, Zack McCallister, or George Kontos. My vot is either Horne or McCallister.
by 306008 on
Jul 27, 2008 5:06 PM EDT
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Please for the love of god no
Why would the Royals want a very light hitting OFer? His defense is pretty good, but not great. And his hitting is poor, even for a CFer.
2006 .752 OPS
2007 .718
2008 .657
I know he’s just 23, but I don’t see growth or improvement there. He still might improve, but to where? A .730 OPS? Sounds like a competent 4th OFer and no more than that. As a starting OFer, he stinks. Am I missing something here? Bannister is not a great pitcher. I’m not against trading him for the right return. But this would be selling very low. And it would be adding another all-defense, no-hit player to the lineup (probably as a fixture for years). That makes no sense. Just because Dutton reports it, doesn’t mean it is true. So I’m going to reserve my DM criticism unless and until this happens. But if it does happen, I’m going to lose it.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on
Jul 27, 2008 5:03 PM EDT
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Cabrera
Here are his 162 game averages….
.269 batting average
74 runs
156 hits
26 doubles
4 triples
10 home runs
66 RBI
15 for 20 SB
.332 OB
.378 SLG
.710 OBSLG
Sounds very similar to DeJesus through 3 seasons. Just .010 on the batting average and 3 or 4 more homers and 10 more SB. Don’t forget he’s only 23. He will hit the prime of his career. I think it’s a great trade for us.
There is no way he compares to Gathright.
by 306008 on
Jul 27, 2008 5:14 PM EDT
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comparing Cabrera to DDJ in terms of offensive output is ridiculous
DDJ has a career line of .285/.358/.421 with a 104 OPS+ (take away his 2007 season, which is looking more and more like an aberration, and those stats would be even higher). He kicks the shit out of Melky in pretty much every statistical measure of offensive performance.
Even if we were to look only at DDJ’s first three seasons, as you suggest, Cabrera still does not match up. DDJ’s 2004 line was .287/.360/.402, which was the worst of his first three seasons with the Royals (DDJ had a whopping 7 major-league ABs in 2003, so I’m not counting that), and he still was way better than Cabrera is now. Relying on counting stats like you are (for stuff like RBIs, hits, and runs) is not nearly as persuasive.
by DarthYoshi on
Jul 27, 2008 5:23 PM EDT
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There's no comparison with Dejesus
I’m going to ignore the counting stats, because they should be ignored. After three seasons, DeJesus’s OPS was MUCH higher than .710. And given the fact that Melky has gotten worse each year since 2006, can we be confident that he’s going to get much better? His stats are all going in the wrong direction.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on
Jul 27, 2008 5:23 PM EDT
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????
Why would the Royals want Melky Cabrera? Especially with Maier in the mix now. Cabrera is not as good as DeJesus, Teahen or Guillen and the Royals already have three perfectly good 4th outfielder candidates. Plus there is no obvious candidate to replace Bannister in the rotation at this point. No way should they trade Bannister just to upgrade their bench.
If this really is a trade being discussed I find it a head scratcher. The Royals don’t need any more roster fillers. If they are going to make a trade they should go for Jason Bay.
www.rockchalktalk.com for pretty good KU baseball coverage
by James Quinn on
Jul 27, 2008 6:13 PM EDT
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it upgrades the team b/c it pushes gload to the bench instead of starting at 1b for the next two years...
banny isnt exactly helping this team right now….and maier sucks
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on
Jul 27, 2008 6:17 PM EDT
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I'm all for pushing Gload to the bench at any cost
I really don’t think the trade is so bad. Bannister is OK in a 4th or 5th starter type of way, and is easily replaced. Rosa could take his place in the rotation. Cabrera has a little upside and was rushed to the MLB level. I don’t know if he’s the answer as a starter, but he would be an excellent 4th OF and a solid stop gap until someone better comes along. Honestly, if the Royals can get a solid OBP guy and decent power guy in the offseason, I think this offense will improve greatly.
by lordbyronk on
Jul 27, 2008 6:25 PM EDT
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Bannister is worth more than a decent 4th OFer
And if that is his highest market value right now (and I don’t think it is), then this is exactly the wrong time to trade him. You don’t trade a decent player at his lowest ebb. It’s called trading low and that is how you get the least for a player.
And this is definitely NOT the way you upgrade Gload. You upgrade Gload either from getting a real 1B or a real corner OFer. Adding a light hitting OFer who is worse than Teahen so that Teahen can go to 1B moves Gload to the bench, but only by adding another sub-mediocre player to the roster. This would be really, truly stupid.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on
Jul 27, 2008 6:55 PM EDT
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continuing to give bannister starts isnt the definition of smart.
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on
Jul 27, 2008 6:57 PM EDT
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We should be giving up on talent?
In a non-contending year, you let talented players continue to play and work on whatever they need to work on. I’m not saying Bannister is going to be an ace or a #2 SP, but he’s definitely not a guy you give up on or demote because you think Rosa might help the Royals win one or two more games this year. In a non-contending year, you should think and act long-term, not short-term.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on
Jul 27, 2008 9:43 PM EDT
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there's a place for guys who dont perform at a good level....
its omaha.
long term thinking…is giving guys like rosa a shot until banny figures out something that allows him to get out major league hitters
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on
Jul 27, 2008 9:59 PM EDT
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Rosa will get his shot
And that shot should be at the expense of Davies, not Bannister. Bannister >> Davies. And Bannister isn’t going to figure out how to get out MLB hitters again by facing AAA hitters.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on
Jul 27, 2008 10:16 PM EDT
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he might need to learn a new pitch...adjust mechanics...whatever...
those things can all be done in omaha
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on
Jul 27, 2008 10:18 PM EDT
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They can also be done in Kansas City
Rosa’s injured anyways.
Rowdy Hardy Fan Club member.
by doublestix on
Jul 27, 2008 10:23 PM EDT
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Have you heard the nature and extent of Rosa's injury?
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on
Jul 27, 2008 10:32 PM EDT
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Elbow
I don’t think it’s bad but their being extremely careful with him since he’s had injuries in the past.
Rowdy Hardy Fan Club member.
by doublestix on
Jul 27, 2008 10:44 PM EDT
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If they think that is the nature of the problem, then sending him down would make sense
I don’t see any evidence that this is the problem. I haven’t heard or read anything like that from Bannister, McClure or Hillman. I think if the problem was something like that, they would have sent him down by now.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on
Jul 27, 2008 10:24 PM EDT
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there has to be something like that in play when he's in the stretch...
something is off from where it was in the past.
what else would it be?
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on
Jul 27, 2008 10:41 PM EDT
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Are you saying, what else could be the problem other than mechanics?
Approach, strategy, pitch selection, etc. (as well as bad luck). And if McClure is a very good pitching coach who has helped other pitchers with their mechanics, then wouldn’t KC be the best place for him to work on his mechanics?
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on
Jul 27, 2008 10:52 PM EDT
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if we're not worried about winning games i suppose...
which our GM has stated as being very important….
although, they’re pretty hypocritical with it b/c they wont let billy play 1st b/c he might hurt the team…but they continute to let banny go out there every 5 days
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on
Jul 27, 2008 10:59 PM EDT
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Who should be making those starts?
H. Ramirez? Rosa is injured, so he’s off the table. Call up Duckworth? Look, Bannister has had more good months than bad months as a Royal. Maybe we shouldn’t overreact and send him down in a non-contending year just because he’s had a couple bad months. HIs development and him getting things turned around is more important than the one or two games another pitcher might help us win. Let’s keep our eye on the ball and not get frustrated into making bad moves.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on
Jul 27, 2008 11:03 PM EDT
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I am all for nailing Gload to the bench,
but moving Teahen over to first to replace Gload is not a move I am excited about at all.
The Royals already have a few “house options” that I like more than that. Bring up Shealy and let him play every day. The guy is having a very solid year in Omaha, .298/.381/.513. Or simply play Butler at first every day and DH Samsanite. Putting Teahen at first just replaces one subpar first baseman with a somewhat better subpar firstbaseman.
www.rockchalktalk.com for pretty good KU baseball coverage
by James Quinn on
Jul 27, 2008 8:15 PM EDT
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+1 on Shealy
I just saw his Omaha stats the other day and it surprised me a bit how well he’s been hitting. I think now is the time to get him up here, play him for 6 weeks, and see what happens. At this point, we know what we’ve got in Teahen, and we know he’s not the answer in terms of being a regular first baseman. Ditto for Gload, obviously. What is there to lose? Besides, if we aren’t willing to give Shealy an extended look soon at the major league level, it’s time to admit that the trade we made to acquire him didn’t work out, try to move him in a trade, and begin again looking for a long-term first baseman (that is, if it’s not going to be Butler).
by cookierojas73 on
Jul 27, 2008 8:24 PM EDT
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It is funny to me how everybody is on the Shealytrain
Gload never slugged below .500 in AAA. I don’t think Shealy is much of a option. I am in favor of giving him one last dying chance but I think he’ll fail as he has in the past I wouldn’t get too excited.
Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin
by kcscoliny on
Jul 27, 2008 10:53 PM EDT
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They reason we want to try Shealy
We know Gload sucks, and he sucks hard. I’d rather give another guy in the system a shot than waste more PA’s on Gload. I don’t think anyone is genuinely excited about Shealy. He’s just worth a shot.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on
Jul 27, 2008 10:56 PM EDT
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i agree...shealy sucks as well
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on
Jul 27, 2008 10:59 PM EDT
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wow, I never looked at it that way
you just changed my mind.
by I need more Esteban on
Jul 28, 2008 12:14 PM EDT
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Probably
but he’s a better bet to perform than Gload.
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
by NHZ on
Jul 28, 2008 12:52 PM EDT
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NHZ, didn't you read the post?
he sucks, isn’t that all you need to hear?
by I need more Esteban on
Jul 28, 2008 12:57 PM EDT
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I think we should play Esteban at first
that way, if he does badly, you’ll have to change your name to “I need less Esteban” or if he does well “I am totally satisfied with my Esteban content.”
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
by NHZ on
Jul 28, 2008 1:02 PM EDT
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FINALLY
someone jumps on my line that I stole from Rany
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on
Jul 29, 2008 5:36 PM EDT
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Olivo
Will Olivo keep his type B status sitting on the bench behind Buck and starting every fifth game? If so, keep him. Otherwise, I say we package him with Banni, move them both, get back two pitching prospects and a 23 year old OF who his better than anyone is giving him credit for. He’s an upgrade over Gathright. Our OF would be DeJesus, Cabrera, Guillen. We have Esteban on the bench and Gload on the bench. It makes us a better team I think.
Here is our 40 man OF’s. Who would Cabrera be better than?
DeJesus. No.
Teahan. Half the strikeouts, equal in average, less power, more SBs. ? Defensively?
Guillen. No.
Maier. Yes.
Gathright. Yes.
Costa. Yes.
Does that improve our team? Offensively and Defensively, yes. Pitching wise… no. But in all honesty. Banni will only be on the NYY roster for the rest of this season until they think Hughes and Kennedy are ready. We’ll be able to get Banni back through a MiLB trade if it’s that big of a deal.
by 306008 on
Jul 27, 2008 11:35 PM EDT
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We don't really know what the deal is with Olivo
He has a contract with a mutual option for 2009. If he declines that option, he might be a class B FA. Or he might not be. He also may not have quite enough service time to become a FA. According to some, he’ll be one day of service time short of the necessary threshold.
And Teahen hits considerably better than Melky and has for each year of their careers. Melky is probably a little better defensively. And Teahen is one of the best baserunners in baseball (base running, not base stealing). No serious argument can be made that Melky is even as good as Teahen.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on
Jul 27, 2008 11:42 PM EDT
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Plus, Olivo is much better than any other catcher in the organization who would replace him.
Olivo is helping out the team this year, and he very well may be back next year. If the Royals trade him they have no one at Omaha ready to take his place. Tupman is having a terrible year. I like the idea of the Royals holding on to Olivo unless they are blown away with an offer.
www.rockchalktalk.com for pretty good KU baseball coverage
by James Quinn on
Jul 27, 2008 11:46 PM EDT
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Olivo
Next year, one should expect him to regress to something closer to his career average of .240/.275/.411. His likely replacement from inside the organization would be Brayan Pena (Omaha’s current #1 catcher). His AAA career numbers have been .307/.354/.402 (mostly in the International League). Not much power, but a decent contact hitter who manages a pretty good OBP (this year he’s hitting at approximately that level for Omaha). He would likely be worse than Olivo in the majors, but how much worse? His SLG would be considerably lower than Olivo’s but his OBP may well be higher (you don’t have to work too hard to have an OBP over .275). The kicker is that Pena would play for league minimum, while Olivo’s option is for $2.7M. I’d much rather have Pena as the backup catcher and have an extra $2.3M to play with. Long story short, if the mutual option is exercised or if he’s not FA eligible, I’d prefer to trade him in the offseason.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on
Jul 28, 2008 12:03 AM EDT
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Olivo
1. He’s not FA eligible. He IS going to be one day short.
2. Small rant, but why can’t Butler play first base and Olivo DH against lefties? Where is the downside to this? Olivo’s numbers against LHP are pretty f’ing good, and Gload’s just flat out suck. My lineup tomorrow (against a lefty)—
CF DeJesus, SS Aviles, DH Butler, RF Guillen, 2B Grudzielanek, DH Olivo, 3B Gordon, C Buck, LF German
It won’t happen, but it probably should.
Rowdy Hardy Fan Club member.
by doublestix on
Jul 28, 2008 12:21 AM EDT
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1. His contract may include a clause which says the Royals will waive arbitration rights to him. Considering that the contract includes the mutual option (which would be moot if he’s arb. eligible), there’s a good chance that the arb. waiver is part of the contract.
2. I have no problem with that. The question would be is Olivo as backup catcher + DH vs. lefties worth $2.7M to the Royals. If the Royals have all-hit, little-D on the team next year like Guillen and Dunn or Burrell, we might want the DH spot open for them pretty frequently.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on
Jul 28, 2008 12:34 AM EDT
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Your point #1
would solve the issue I bring up in my second paragraph below.
Of course, that brings up the question of what people were thinking when the contract was signed. Obviously, both parties were aware that Olivo would be one day short of FA service time at the end of one season. The mutual option - i.e., the Royals surrendering that one day - is a concession on the club’s part. Explicitly waiving arbitration rights would be another concession on the club’s part. So I wonder if we got Olivo cheaper than we otherwise might have expected to.
Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.
by jonfmorse on
Jul 28, 2008 12:38 AM EDT
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This is odd
We all know the Royals have a good deal of extra money, they are probably going to turn a $20M profit this year. $2.3M is not a lot to spend to upgrade a roster spot which will get 200-300 plate apperances next year in covers a vital defensive position.
The Royals spent $36M on Guillen. The offensive gap between Guillen and Emil Brown is less thant the gap will be between Olivo and Pena/Tuppman. Spending $2.3M on Olivo should not be seen as a deal breaker. Personally, I would be glad to see Olivo locked up with a two year contract. I’d be fine giving him a 2/8, especially if it does not contain a no-trade clause.
www.rockchalktalk.com for pretty good KU baseball coverage
by James Quinn on
Jul 28, 2008 10:27 AM EDT
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I wouldn't be too excited by that move.
Buck is getting a large amount of playing time at Catcher. If KC is gonna continue to play Buck 4-1 starts then they might as well sell Olivo at the highest value either FA’s or a trade and call up Pena. Pena doesn’t provide the power that Olivo does but as a Switch hitter provides more of a natural platoon split with Buck as your primary catcher.
Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin
by kcscoliny on
Jul 28, 2008 12:52 PM EDT
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Would you be happy to pay him 2/8 if he reverts back to his career numbers of .240/.275/.411?
I would think that Brayan Pena could manage .250/.300/.350 which, given the higher value of OBP, is nearly the same production and for league minimum. That additional $2.3M spent on Olivo might be money that could be spent on someone decent for the front end of the bullpen (which needs an upgrade). If the Royals go out and get a top tier FA for $15-20M per year, there isn’t going to be much money left for other things. You might think that the Royals can easily afford a $90M payroll, but I think that’s more than a little high, and I bet Glass does too.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on
Jul 28, 2008 1:33 PM EDT
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The Royals have enough money that they do not need to make this choice
They can both keep Olivo and buy on the free agent market. They can carry a roster salary of at least $80M.
I have no idea how good Pena is behind the plate, but we know Olivo is an above average backstop.
The guy is worth some money. The Royals have a good deal of money and not enough good players. It seems like an easy call to me.
www.rockchalktalk.com for pretty good KU baseball coverage
by James Quinn on
Jul 28, 2008 1:42 PM EDT
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If the payroll is $80M
...then they can afford a top tier FA and Olivo at $2.7M next year. But I don’t think they’d be able to afford much of anything else in the way of FA’s. I’d much rather jettison Olivo, replace him with Pena and have that money there to fill a hole in the bullpen.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on
Jul 28, 2008 1:50 PM EDT
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Eh,
I just don’t see keeping Olivo as any kind of priority. Buck’s better than him, and Olivo’s likely to enter his decline phase sooner.
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
by NHZ on
Jul 28, 2008 1:54 PM EDT
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Honest question
Why do you think Buck is better than Olivo?
www.rockchalktalk.com for pretty good KU baseball coverage
by James Quinn on
Jul 28, 2008 4:01 PM EDT
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He's younger
so less likely to decline soon. He has a better OBP, and decent pop for a catcher. Historically, he’s done better than he has this when it comes to limiting the running game, so I don’t think he’s going to be below average defensively going forward.
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
by NHZ on
Jul 28, 2008 4:20 PM EDT
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I keep having to point this out
and you, being a lawyer, should understand it.
There is no way that Olivo is not a free-agent if he declines his option. The very act of including the player option has to be a de facto rescinding of the team’s Reserve Clause rights to the player, and I bet you money that if the Royals were to attempt to force him to remain Royals property if he declined his option, there’s be legal wrangling.
Now, where this becomes interesting is this: if he declines his option, he may become a free agent (because the inclusion of the option guarantees it) yet not provide the Royals with a compensation pick (because collective bargaining rules could result in an argument that since he should still be Royals’ property, they’re voluntarily releasing him).
Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.
by jonfmorse on
Jul 28, 2008 12:35 AM EDT
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There is no way that Olivo is not a free-agent if he declines his option. The very act of including the player option has to be a de facto rescinding of the team’s Reserve Clause rights to the player, and I bet you money that if the Royals were to attempt to force him to remain Royals property if he declined his option, there’s be legal wrangling.
A contract cannot overrule the collective bargaining agreement. But I think this is all very fuzzy. I don’t think it is at all clear if he’s arbitration eligible or FA eligible or if he could get the Royals a compensatory pick.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on
Jul 28, 2008 12:45 AM EDT
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Clarification
It’s fuzzy because of our lack of information. If we knew everything that was in the contract, I think we’d have our answer. I suspect there is a waiver of arbitration clause in there.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on
Jul 28, 2008 12:46 AM EDT
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A contract cannot overrule the collective bargaining agreement
if the contract works to the player’s or union’s detriment. My impression has always been that in pretty much every instance, the purpose of a CBA is to place restrictions and obligations on the employer, not the employees, and that the employer can grant concessions to employees at their discretion unless said concessions are deemed unfair to the union as a whole. Waiving Olivo’s final day of team control would not, under any circumstances, be viewed as such. (Can you imagine any situation where the union would actually file a grievance over that and force the Royals to retain Olivo’s rights? Really?)
Regardless, a team can most certainly disclaim its rights to a player at any time and for any reason. A player is eligible for free agency at any time if the team grants it. If they owe him money, they’re on the hook, but that’s irrelevant here. (See Thomas, Frank; Sexson, Richie. Neither player was “eligible” for free agency either, insofar as they were still under contract.)
There is a small loophole regarding waivers; technically, if a player is DFAed without options, is claimed by another team, and the waiving team releases the player rather than withdrawing the designation, the player’s contract is then the property of the claiming team. But neither you nor I have ever seen a team make a waiver claim when a player is “designated for assignment for the purpose of giving the player his unconditional release,” because (a) the claiming team is then also stuck with the contract and (b) paying the waiver fee is a pointless waste of money when you can just sign the player without giving his old team $25K or whatever the fee is this week. Plus, waivers are irrelevant during the off-season anyway, so a moot point in Olivo’s case.
Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.
by jonfmorse on
Jul 28, 2008 4:32 AM EDT
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As I said, if the waiver clause is in there (waiving the team's rights to him), then yes he'd be FA eligible
And if it is not, the CBA says that he’s not FA eligible, regardless of the mutual option. This is my point. If he doesn’t have enough service time to be FA eligible, then he’s still arbitration eligible. There must be an explicit clause to waive the team’s rights to him under the CBA. And I think there probably is one.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on
Jul 28, 2008 1:36 PM EDT
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Here's the way I see it. One of two things is true:
Either I’m right in toto, and the Royals do in fact have the right to waive their rights regardless of a clause in the contract… or they somehow, inexplicably, do not, but the explicit clause is in fact in the contract.
Why do I deny the third option (no right to waive, no explicit clause)? Because any agent who’d allow the player option to be included (which they had to give something up to the team in order to gain) without being assured that the player could in fact choose not to exercise said option and become an unrestricted free agent should probably be taken out back and shot for stupidity, that’s why.
Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.
by jonfmorse on
Jul 28, 2008 4:53 PM EDT
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the purpose of a CBA is to place restrictions and obligations on the employer, not the employees
(Except, of course, to outline the employee’s job and behavioral responsibilities, but even then it’s more a case of outlining those conditions under which the employer may take action against the employee and even then there’s still gonna be a grievance filed. You ever seen what it often takes to fire a union member for not doing their job?)
Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.
by jonfmorse on
Jul 28, 2008 4:34 AM EDT
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How do we know Cabrera is better than Maier?
Does Maier even have 25 ML at-bats?
by jbrocato on
Jul 28, 2008 10:40 AM EDT
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Agree to disagree.
We may be worse catching wise… but catching is a defensive position and any offensive is a bonus. Plus that backup would only be catching day after night games. Which amounts to one or two a week max. Just like now. I like Olivo. He’s great for our club. But I think it’d help us to move him and Banni for Cabrera and pitching prospects.
by 306008 on
Jul 28, 2008 12:03 AM EDT
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Bannister is worth more than some 4th OFer
I have no idea why you are so eager to sell low on Bannister.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on
Jul 28, 2008 12:04 AM EDT
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Olivo is worth more than a 4th outfiedler in my mind!
Truth is, I am not sure at all I would trade Olivo for Melky straight up. I would rather the Royals gave the playing time to Maier or Costa than Cabrera. Both seem like better options to me than handing more playing time to a guy who looks pretty well established as a journeyman already.
Does anyone know where Olivo is in terms of coming back to KC next year? Is he leaning in this direction or does he want to test the FA market? Olivo is a good defensive catcher (better than Buck I believe) and a good pinch hitter with pop. Overall he is about as good as it gets when it comes to #2 backstops.
www.rockchalktalk.com for pretty good KU baseball coverage
by James Quinn on
Jul 28, 2008 10:34 AM EDT
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What Olivo wants
I strongly believe that what he wants more than anything is to be a starting catcher somewhere. He wanted a shot at the starting job in spring training and kind of complained about not getting a shot. He said pretty clearly that he wanted to be a starter. I think that is his priority. Since Buck appears to be cemented into that role in KC, I would imagine that he would want to get onto the FA market so that he can find a starting opportunity.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on
Jul 28, 2008 1:39 PM EDT
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Just my opinion, but I prefer Olivo to Buck.
They are about a wash at the plate, and Olivo is a better defensive catcher. Why the love for Buck? He is what he is. A leauge average catcher who is not getting better but who is getting more expensive.
www.rockchalktalk.com for pretty good KU baseball coverage
by James Quinn on
Jul 28, 2008 1:44 PM EDT
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He's really not very expensive
and his OBP is 45 points higher. That’s not a wash, in my opinion.
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
by NHZ on
Jul 28, 2008 1:55 PM EDT
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Why prefer Buck over Olivo
1. Younger (at a better place on the development/decline curve)
2. Less expensive
3. Better hitter
Buck’s career OPS+ is 84. Olivo’s is 78. Buck has improved his OPS+ throughout his career (79, 80, 90, 92). At Olivo’s age, he’s not likely to still be improving. He’s likely to take a big step backwards next year as compared to this year.
Those three things above are pretty big. A better hitter who is younger, and cheaper? I’ll take Buck.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on
Jul 28, 2008 2:14 PM EDT
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and regardless of what some may think....
the pitchers pitch quite a bit better to buck…theres probably a big enough sample size to conclude he makes a difference.
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on
Jul 28, 2008 3:16 PM EDT
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Why Prefer Buck...
Buck is completely dedicated to the Royals. He has been since he got here. Olivo was frustrated he didn’t start but then he got his shot. Buck said I’ll do whatever it takes to make my pitchers better even if I’m not starting. And he shaved his head for Meche. I also like the relationship Buck has with our starters. I don’t think Olivo is that dedicated to making the KC Royals a better team. I think Olivo is dedicated to making Olivo a starter somewhere and making himself more marketable…...
by 306008 on
Jul 28, 2008 6:08 PM EDT
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4. John Buck Rules

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on
Jul 29, 2008 5:41 PM EDT
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Not the right board but....
does anyone know if we signed any international kids yet? Much ado about Iona and I haven’t heard a thing about the Royals.
by 306008 on
Jul 28, 2008 12:28 AM EDT
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Usually those signings don't become public for months
So I don’t know of any yet. Some rumored signings, but that’s about it.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on
Jul 28, 2008 12:35 AM EDT
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We only know of one
OF Jerico Blanco from Venezuela, for (I think) $260k.
Rowdy Hardy Fan Club member.
by doublestix on
Jul 28, 2008 12:42 AM EDT
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other trade
On a side note, a 2nd round pick in 2009 for Brett Favre! We could package that deal. I bet he can throw 95 off the mound. He’s got to be better than Yabuta, Gobble, and a few others.
by 306008 on
Jul 28, 2008 12:59 AM EDT
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attitude problem
+celebrity status and we got…
a White Barry Bonds
as much as I’m a huge Favre fan(...let’s think, yep, I think he’s been my favorite player and the only reason I like the Packers). Through out the years he has shown that he’s somewhat of a loner and do it himself kinda guy. The guy can play, but I don’t think he’s the greatest person in the world. Same goes for Barry.
by playingwithfire on
Jul 28, 2008 1:17 AM EDT
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Melky Cabrera?

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on
Jul 28, 2008 9:27 AM EDT
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Freakish Royals Pessimist Rob Neyer disagrees -
“I like Bannister as much as anybody who’s name doesn’t rhyme with “Shmoznanski”—but if the Yankees really offer Melky Cabrera for Brian Bannister, the Royals must make that deal. Care to guess how many potential impact bats the Royals have in their farm system right now? Zero. They don’t have a single minor league hitter who projects as a major league star. I’m not sure if they’ve got anybody in the system who projects as a major league regular.”
My mother's basement is better than YOUR mother's basement!!
by Royal Kingdom on
Jul 28, 2008 9:37 AM EDT
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"Care to guess how many potential impact bats the Royals have in their farm system right now?"
Guess how many potential impact bats the Royals would have after making this trade?
Zero.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on
Jul 28, 2008 9:51 AM EDT
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yeah, if Melky fits your definition of "potential" then the Royal's system
is loaded with potential.
My mother's basement is better than YOUR mother's basement!!
by Royal Kingdom on
Jul 28, 2008 9:58 AM EDT
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One way to judge the value of Melky
If you were GMDM, would you trade any of these players straight up for Melky?
Mitch Maier
Ryan Shealy
Shane Costa
I would not for Maier. I am on the fence with the other two.
My point being that Caberra only looks sorta attractive because we are not sick of his ass disappointing us yet. He is not good enough to start for a decent MLB team. If he were picked up by the Royals in a year we would be ready to dump him like we were with Brown last year and we are with Gathright this year.
If Caberra played for the Pirates and had a less cool name I bet no one would be interested enough in his rumor to discuss it on a blog…. while sitting in their mother’s basement … in their underwear …. ....
www.rockchalktalk.com for pretty good KU baseball coverage
by James Quinn on
Jul 28, 2008 10:43 AM EDT
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I can't believe that the immediate reaction to this wasn't
“Oh, really, Rob, you fucking traitorious sellout? You don’t think Moustakas projects?”
You know what, I’m glad he moved to crunchy granola land.
Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.
by jonfmorse on
Jul 28, 2008 1:08 PM EDT
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Yeah Neyer's complete writing off of Moustakas as a potential impact bat is baseless
But he loves to make strong, unqualified statements. It has much more impact to say that the Royals have no impact bats in the farm system than to say they have only one. So instead of going for the truth, he goes for the greater impact. Thanks Robbie, keep up the good work.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on
Jul 28, 2008 1:41 PM EDT
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LOL
Neyers a fucking moron.
Guess Moustakas, Hosmer, and maybe Kaaihue don’t count?
Rowdy Hardy Fan Club member.
by doublestix on
Jul 28, 2008 3:35 PM EDT
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He is essentially under the Royal's control. Until the deadline passes without
him signing, I’d consider him a Royals prospect.
My mother's basement is better than YOUR mother's basement!!
by Royal Kingdom on
Jul 28, 2008 3:49 PM EDT
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Melky only looks good as a starter if you think Gathright is close
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on
Jul 29, 2008 5:43 PM EDT
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So Reggie Sanders for Melky Cabrera was almost a done deal?
That would’ve been a good trade from the Royals end.
Bannister for Cabrera, not so much…...
by Top Ramen on
Jul 28, 2008 1:14 PM EDT
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According to Bob Dutton
But I’m not really convinced. Back then, that would have been a Zambrano for Kazmir-like deal to be ridiculed by all.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on
Jul 28, 2008 1:39 PM EDT
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Yeah, I think Dutton often shoots from the hip on these rumors
I’m never convinced by his rumors and his “this almost happened” stuff.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on
Jul 28, 2008 1:42 PM EDT
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NY Royal
Any rumor of this in the NY papers or talk shows?
by 306008 on
Jul 28, 2008 6:10 PM EDT
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Nothing new
They are kind of chewing on the same rumors we are. There’s more buzz about a potential deal for J. Washburn at the moment.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on
Jul 28, 2008 6:14 PM EDT
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Fans thoughts
What are the fans thoughts on trading Cabrera?
by 306008 on
Jul 28, 2008 6:43 PM EDT
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haven't listened to a lot of fan calls into radio shows about this
Yankee fans generally like Melky, but they don’t think he’s great. I don’t think they’d mind dealing him.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on
Jul 28, 2008 6:45 PM EDT
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Buck over Olivo
I posted it farther up, but I think it bears repeating. I’d take Buck over Olivo because of his attitude and dedication to the Kansas City Royals. Buck’s attitude of whatever it takes to make his pitchers better is far better than I wish I was starting somewhere and I can’t do it here Olivo. Buck will do whatever it takes for his pitchers. As a former pitcher, that’s what you want and it makes you much more comfortable to be throwing to a catcher like that. He seems to have a better relationship with his pitchers. Did anyone see him lastnight sitting with Meche in the dugout? He was also with another pitcher but I can’t remember who it was. Not to mention the guy let a pitcher SHAVE his head…. that’s nuts.
PS. I played with Ziegler and he’s a great guy but let’s beat the tar out of his A’s. And I played with Dallas Braden and we all hated him so let’s beat the snot out of him. (he may have changed since then…) I hope we put up 12 by the 3rd inning.
by 306008 on
Jul 28, 2008 6:14 PM EDT
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306
Who are you? Did you play in college or did you met these guys in professional baseball?
www.rockchalktalk.com for pretty good KU baseball coverage
by James Quinn on
Jul 28, 2008 8:10 PM EDT
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Nameless
But I did play legion with Ziegler one year. I’m three years younger than him. I played with Dallas in the New York Collegiate Baseball League. I hope he’s cleaned up a bit… I never made it professionally…. to many 6’1” RHP who throw 88-92. I’ve kept in touch with Ziegler but not Braden.
by 306008 on
Jul 28, 2008 10:06 PM EDT
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I know about the NYCBL!
I write about the Kansas baseball team at Rock Chalk Talk. The Jayhawks send kids to play in the NYCBL most years. Not a bad league, probably comes right after Cape Cod and Northwoods.
Glad to meet you by the way. If you live around Lawrence let me know. Maybe we could catch a game or two at Hoglund next year.
Go Bears????
www.rockchalktalk.com for pretty good KU baseball coverage
by James Quinn on
Jul 29, 2008 11:19 AM EDT
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live down by Springfield MO. I’d love to catch a game though if I’m ever up that way.
Don't forget to send your broken maples to the US Forest Service.
by 306008 on
Jul 29, 2008 2:06 PM EDT
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Sounds great,
I pretty well go to all the KU homegames.
I’ll be away from August until December. If you get a chance send me an e-mail so I have contact information for you come February. My address is in my profile.
I have never been to a Bears game in Springfield. I understand it is a nice stadium. KU and Missouri State play a home and home each year. Maybe I’ll make the road game this year.
www.rockchalktalk.com for pretty good KU baseball coverage
by James Quinn on
Jul 29, 2008 2:13 PM EDT
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live down by Springfield MO. I’d love to catch a game though if I’m ever up that way.
Don't forget to send your broken maples to the US Forest Service.
by 306008 on
Jul 29, 2008 2:06 PM EDT
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