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Reshaping the Roster, A Retrospective: Part I The Position Players

With the trade deadline looming and the continued pursuit of the roster/organization on everyone's mind  it's worthwhile to take a look at the moves Dayton Moore has already made. Part I takes a look at how the position players with the big club. Stay tuned for Part II (big league pitchers) and Part III (minor leaguers).

It was 2006, Lebanon and Israel were doing their thing, FEMA did a "heckuva job" in New Orleans and the Royals were supposedly beginning an era of competence (as per Posnanski after Opening Day) thanks to a bizarre December spending spree that brought in Mark Grudzielanek, Doug Mientkiewicz, Joe Mays, Paul Bako and Reggie Sanders. (Vintage RR posts here and here.) Meanwhile, the franchise was a full season behind the Beltran trade and preparing for the Jackson County Stadium Tax Subsidy Vote. In a stunning coincidence, Bud Selig "promised" Kansas City an All-Star game pending a proper allocation of JC's limitless public monies.

To a surprising extent, the 2006 lineup, as Moore more or less inherited it, remains the 2008 edition. You can find good teams that have had more turnover than this:

2006 2008
C Buck Buck
1B Mientkiewicz Gload
2B Grudzielanek Grudzielanek
3B Teahen Gordon
SS Berroa Pena
RF Sanders Teahen
CF DeJesus DeJesus
LF Brown Guillen
DH Sweeney Butler
B-C Bako Olivo
Bench Graffanino Gathright
Bench German German
Bench Stairs Aviles
Bench Costa Callaspo

The 2006 Royals went 62-100.

You can quibble with some of these slots as they are crudely defined here -- for example, I'm considering Gathright a bench player in the table above, although he's actually played more innings in CF than anyone else -- but for quick and dirty purposes these are the positions according to the organizational masterplan for the two seasons. As in Gathright's case, for some of the players "bench" may not be quite the right label, but more or less it works, and I've included only the additional players who logged significant playing time.

What stands out is how much holdover there has been. Three of the positions are exactly the same, although perhaps not without some controversy. Buck is still the primary catcher, Grudzielanek is still at second base and DeJesus is still in center. Moreover, Mark Teahen remains an everyday fixture in the lineup, although he's shifted from third base to the outfield, and Esteban German is still a utility player. When you factor in that Alex Gordon and Billy Butler, lineup cornerstones if everything goes well, are also Baird-era draftees, the 2008 lineup remains a very Allard creation.

Subjectively and intuitively, the 2008 edition should be better than their 2006 progenitor: the holdovers (Buck, Teahen, DeJesus) should be hitting their peaks, Emil Brown has been upgraded to Jose Guillen and a decline-phase Mike Sweeney has been converted to supposed prospect and pure hitter Billy Butler. Miguel Olivo is a huge upgrade over Paul Bako. Unfortunately, the sum of their parts just hasn't quite added up to being much more better than the Minky era. The 2006 team ended up averaging 4.67 runs per game, better than the current squad's 4.06 average.

Huh?

To start, the holdovers, DeJesus somewhat excepted, have failed to truly break out. Grudz and German are still around and are, as the man sang, still the same. We wait still on Gordon and Butler to truly arrive. Seemingly really easy upgrades at SS and 1B have turned into, umm... Tony Pena Jr. and Ross Gload. This bears repeating. Just find someone better than the worst overall player in the game (Berroa) and one of the weakest first basemen (Minky). He couldn't do it. Where have you gone Doug Mientkiewicz? Jose Guillen has had one insanely awesome month and two bad ones. Finally, although Miguel Olivo has out-hit Paul Bako, Dayton Moore's first big league pickup, Joey Gathright, has eaten up a ton of playing time over the last three seasons and consistently failed to hit. In 237 plate appearances this year, Gator has three extra-base hits. Three. In 248 last year, he had eight. Gains like the Bako/Olivo and the Brown/Guillen exchanges have been mitigated by players like Gathright.

Over the last few months there's been a persistent meme that Moore is focused on rebuilding -- really, "building" should be used throughout this post, since it was so long ago that anything around here was actually built -- the organization's pitching coffers, and that the lineup will be more of a patchwork project. And while it isn't yet clear that the team's lineup core is actually enough of one to bother building around, it was certainly more than there was among the hurlers. Sure, in 2008, Butler and Gordon are disappointments, but they are near locks to improve, at least a little bit. There are problems however, and Moore is not immune criticism for his utter failure to upgrade the roster at two slots, SS and 1B, that looked to be no-brainer/any AAA lifer would have been better. He hasn't found better bench options than what Allard managed in Stairs/Costa/Graffy and it's possible he's done worse.

Lastly, there's the large but mysterious issue of defense. The quality of the team's defense is harder to definitively pin-down, but according to BP's defensive efficiency data, the 2008 squad is, relative to competition, an improvement. Then again, the 2006 team was terrible, posted a D-Eff of .682, good for 28th best in baseball and 13th in the AL. The current team stands at 19th overall and 9th in baseball. (Although the pure number, .698, is not much different.) So regarding defense, Moore has taken a terrible team and produced a below-average one.

The Royals hired Moore on May 31, 2006 and after over two years of his stewardship, the offense is worse than the bad one he inherited.  Considering that he also had nothing to do with Butler or Gordon, and with no notable position prospects in the system, we must conclude that Dayton's handling of the position players in blue and white has been akin to Argentina's performance in the Falklands War: at best, a disappointment, and at worst an abject failure.

 

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Time to lighten up, RR

George Brett isn’t walking through that door! Carlos Beltran isn’t walking through that door! Chipper Jones isn’t walking through that door (unless we’re in a Hooters)!

Jeff Francouer might be, though… (shudder)

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Jul 7, 2008 1:16 AM EDT   0 recs

Oh yeah

Costa Now!

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Jul 7, 2008 1:17 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Um, no offense, but I think it was pretty obvious I was joking. Maybe that's just me.

If the Hooters reference doesn’t clinch it, I don’t know what does. But, as a wise man once said, “u never know.”

Love the passion, though.

I wish Gathright was half as capable as a baseball player as he was a raw athelete. Alas, that will never be. (well, until his atheltic skills decline rapidly as age/injury takes its toll)

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Jul 8, 2008 1:53 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I keep pointing this out in odd places

As far as I’m concerned, Gathright’s only problem is that he can’t drive the ball… and the annals of major league history are littered with fast guys whose SLG took awhile to catch up to their OBP. I’m too lazy to dig for it right now, but it would not surprise me if Gathright is among the team leaders in P/PA. I know for a fact he leads the team in foul balls per PA. That his OBP is abysmal, then, must be a direct result of his inability to drive the ball.

I think it might be a solvable problem - weights, lots of BP - and as such, although I think he has no business eating up PA pretending to be a starting CF right now, we shouldn’t completely give up on him yet.

Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.

by jonfmorse on Jul 8, 2008 4:27 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Does he have options?

Could he be sent to the minors to work on that? (Along with TPJ?)

by stlfan on Jul 8, 2008 7:58 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

No

He has no options left.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Jul 8, 2008 10:22 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

the lineup does look like it has a better future than it did in 2006

but again, other than the Emil/Guillen swap, I’m not sure Dayton is to credit for any of that

by royalsreview on Jul 7, 2008 1:28 AM EDT   0 recs

1 for 300 may be charitable

I wanna know what love is, I want you to show me

by LeoBloom on Jul 7, 2008 2:08 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Puts it into perspective

as to why this team that always seems to be so close to that cusp of turning the corner to a .500 ball club (when looking at it in the pre-season) has yet to do so for several years.

by stlfan on Jul 7, 2008 1:35 AM EDT   0 recs

every year Teahen/DDJ etc

sound so good in ST…

and then…

by royalsreview on Jul 7, 2008 1:39 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

DDJ

Hasn’t done anything this year to merit negative reaction. He’s improved from last year’s down year and is an above-league average CF. Teahen, on the other hand, is starting to merit worrying about being a disappointment—part of that can be the handling of him, basically turning him into a supersub by leaving him without a true positional home.

I think the entire Teahen issue shows a problem—the Royals have been invested in “seeing what the younger guys can do” and thus missed out on signing the undervalued spare free agent, e.g., committing to Ryan Shealy at 1B when Carlos Pena was available for a song. Shealy, while often hyped by the mainstream of the Royals media machine (website, radio) as rediscovering his power, is probably a wash at this point. Teahen’s value was at his highest when he was still a 3B with power potential and now doesn’t its hard to justify his filling the position he has with below average production.

With that said, we used to complain about the various league-average-or-less stopgaps that the Baird regime (Knoblach, T-Long, the second coming of Michael Tucker, and most of the 2006 crop) kept giving us while talking about rebuilding. Moore is generally letting these younger guys prove whether they belong or not before making a decision on them. He’ll pursue higher value free agents (whatever else you think of him, Guillen was one of the top OF available this year, and Moore seriously went after Hunter and Jones, so it could have been far worse) instead of bringing in marginal guys-that means we’ll fill the slots more slowly, but they’ll get filled. Next year’s outfield of Guillen/DDJ/big free agent (I fully expect Teahen to be elsewhere next year) will be better than this year’s Guillen/DDJ/Teahen/Gathright combos of this season. But until the system shows that it can develop offense and then starts to stockpile those guys (for perspective, this is really the sixth year of Tampa Bay’s (re)building following five years of suck-we’re in year 2), the slow building with good free agents will be the plan for now. It’s not necessarily a bad one.

Sometimes you just gotta roll the potato.

by CentralChamps2009 on Jul 7, 2008 11:54 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Teahan

I think that Teahan would be a great back up LF, RF, 1B, 3B…but if some other team wants him in a deal that helps the Royals for now, and the long term, then you let him go in a heartbeat.

by stlfan on Jul 8, 2008 8:00 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I'd think someone who's a Royals fan 156 games a year

could spell “Teahen” correctly. (And don’t claim it’s a typo, since you misspelled it the same way twice within five words.)

Maybe it’s because 162 games a year, you listen to Mike Shannon mispronounce it.

Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.

by jonfmorse on Jul 8, 2008 8:58 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Well...

I have no good comeback for that…Shannon is one of the best in the biz…in the drinking/broadcasting biz…

by stlfan on Jul 8, 2008 5:36 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah, DDJ not good enough for you this year?

What on earth do you want from him? .316/.373/.482/.855 from a CFer. And you’re disappointed? Have you ever considered how spectacular the Royals would have to play for you to actually be impressed by them?

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Jul 7, 2008 11:58 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

i'm tired of these guys

i really wish there was more turnover and more legitimately different layers

out with minky, in with gload

but don’t worry, Shealy is the real deal

right

I wanna know what love is, I want you to show me

by LeoBloom on Jul 7, 2008 1:41 AM EDT   0 recs

want more turnover?

We St. Louisans will give you Kennedy AND Izturis for Grudzielanek…because 2 is better than one, right?

by stlfan on Jul 7, 2008 1:45 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

can we get Aaron Miles too?

I wanna know what love is, I want you to show me

by LeoBloom on Jul 7, 2008 1:48 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

no!

We need “scrappy” :)

by stlfan on Jul 7, 2008 5:09 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

For those who think that I always defend Dayton Moore
Considering that he also had nothing to do with Butler or Gordon, and with no notable position prospects in the system, we must conclude that Dayton’s handling of the position players in blue and white has been akin to Argentina’s performance in the Falklands War: at best, a disappointment, and at worst an abject failure.

I largely agree with this. But, for whatever its worth, I think his failure (so far) at improving the offense has been more about inaction than mistake. The vast majority of his moves (FA, trade and draft) have been about improving the pitching both in the majors and throughout the organization. Off the top of my head, the only significant moves he’s attempted with regard to improving the offense have been signing Guillen, trading for Shealy and trading for Callaspo. I still like the first and third move and the second hasn’t worked out. That’s about it.

The Royals are still (re)building. Hopefully Moore needs to understand that the pitching has by now been completely rebuilt. Except for a tweak or two here or there, the job is done. It should now be all about the offense. This offseason, he will either significantly improve the offense, or prove that he’s only half of a good GM. The reason I’m not bashing Moore for not having rebuilt the offense yet is that I think he plans to. In his rebuilding plan, I think he prioritized pitching. He wanted to add a big position player like Torii Hunter in the offseason, but that didn’t work out. I would imagine that he now sees that he has some significant holes in the lineup to fill and will work hard to do so between now and opening day 2009.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Jul 7, 2008 10:25 AM EDT   0 recs

I would bet

We see a flurry of trades this winter. He’s been patiently waiting, evaluating, building a system. Now that the team has shown significant improvement, its time for him to really make his stamp on the organization and make the trades necessarily to catapult us forward. I think this could be the off-season that makes or breaks his GM tenure.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Jul 7, 2008 11:30 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Agreed that this is a key offseason for him

But I don’t think I’d expect a flurry of trades. We don’t have enough tradable pieces for a flurry. I suppose he could trade pieces of the core, but I doubt he’d trade more than one of those.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Jul 7, 2008 12:26 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

i feel like a major, somewhat jarring trade could happen

possibly involving DDJ or some other major piece

by royalsreview on Jul 7, 2008 5:03 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

That's a definite possibility

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Jul 7, 2008 5:12 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

DDJ for Yuniesky Betancourt!

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Jul 7, 2008 7:32 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Anyone want to do a side-by-side VORP comparison of those lineups?

My sneaking suspicion, and I think someone brought up the point the other day, is that our crap this year, is worse than our crap in 2006. That is, the worst 3-4 players in our lineup are bigger offensive black holes than our worst 3-4 players in 2006.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Jul 7, 2008 11:28 AM EDT   0 recs

maybe MORP

isnt that one pro-rated?

"So whattya say, should we clean this place up?" - Tom Cruise

by DyeFan187 on Jul 7, 2008 12:39 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Too bad this club was so awful when he took over.

No pitching at any level (minors or majors). He’s addressing that. Hitting is just status quo until the pitching gets built up. Time to change his focus now. This definitely is a key year for GMDM and the Royals.

by djk royal on Jul 7, 2008 11:47 AM EDT   0 recs

Had to Rec that.

This organization was at rock bottom when Moore took over. There will be no quick fix.

by djk royal on Jul 7, 2008 12:32 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

2 above average pitchers in the rotation
I don’t necessarily agree with NY’s statement that the pitching has been rebuilt. Bannister has regressed, and I think that means we may have only 2 above avg pitchers in the rotation going forward.

Let’s say, for the sake of argument that this is true. How many above average SP’s does a rotation need. I would think that the average MLB rotation has two above average SP’s (#1 and #2, with #3 being roughly average and #4 and #5 being below average pitchers). A theoretical rotation with two above average pitchers (Greinke and Meche) two average pitchers (Hochevar and Bannister) and one below average pitcher (Rosa, Davies) is clearly above average. And I think that rotation projects well going forward, considering that all of those players are under 30 years of age and 3 of the 6 are 24 or younger. One should expect improvement from Greinke, Hochevar, and Rosa at the least (with Rosa projecting as at least an average pitcher eventually).

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Jul 7, 2008 12:37 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

The post to which you are replying wasn't about Moore; it was about the quality of the Royals rotation
But this one singular move isn’t enough to get me too excited about Moore’s chances of success as GM.

It would be hard for me to imagine any combination of moves wich would get you excited about Moore’s chances of success as a GM.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Jul 7, 2008 12:55 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

here's what would do it

1. Trade Cortes or Moustakas and a low pitching prospect for Josh Willingham.
2. Trade Meche and/or Teahen for Brandon Wood (or Brignac? Lowrie?)
3. Sign Dunn or Burrell in the offseason

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by marbotty on Jul 7, 2008 1:25 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Ok

Those sound like fine moves, but it’s not like we know those are all doable. It’s not like the only thing standing between us and those moves happening is Moore’s will to make it happen. Are the Marlins really willing to trade Willingham for a player that isn’t likely to help them until 2011 at the earliest? We don’t know if any of those deals are doable. With regard to the FA signings, I’d be happy to sign either of them. We’ll find out if Moore is interested.

But you have to admit that you are very critical of Moore. You don’t even want to give him credit for doing a good job rebuilding the pitching in the majors and minors. He’s done a spectacular job in that regard, and done very, very little with regard to hitting.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Jul 7, 2008 1:31 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

they probably aren't all doable

I think Willingham is expendable, especially with Maybin coming up. I think he could have a Quentin-esque breakout away from Florida.

2 is the move I’m not sure we could pull off, but I think it may be necessary if we want #3 to happen (hopefully I’m wrong there about our budget.)

Anyway, I’ll be the first to admit I’m critical of Moore. I did give him credit below for making some good trades and improving the overall quality of our major and minor league pitching – I just think sometimes he gets too much credit around here for building pitching, when he’s given up some pitching and gotten back pretty much nothing in return.

I think our main area of disagreement is the level of quality of pitching we’ve given up - I think it’s much higher than you’re giving credit, but there’s no real sense debating that now.

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by marbotty on Jul 7, 2008 2:09 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Budget
2 is the move I’m not sure we could pull off, but I think it may be necessary if we want #3 to happen (hopefully I’m wrong there about our budget.)

There’s no question that with the money coming off the books and the increased revenue the Royals are getting from MLB, the Royals will easily be able to afford a top tier FA this offseason, including either Dunn or Burrell.
I think our main area of disagreement is the level of quality of pitching we’ve given up – I think it’s much higher than you’re giving credit, but there’s no real sense debating that now.

The pitching we’ve given up in trade. Like Sisco, Burgos, Buckner and Howell? Hard to be too heartbroken about losing those four.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Jul 7, 2008 2:18 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

my criticism was leveled primarily at trades involving hitters

and yeah, i’m upset we gave up Howell for Gathright. His FIP is as good or better than Greinke’s this year. I know you like to dismiss his success as a result of being in the pen, but he’s young enough that he could make a legitimate transition back to the rotation and perform well.

Buckner was probably our best pitching prospect, but I liked that trade.

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by marbotty on Jul 7, 2008 2:34 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

and yeah, i’m upset we gave up Howell for Gathright.

I don’t like that trade either, but I don’t think we should expect greatness from Howell. He is what he is: a pretty good lefty reliever.
I know you like to dismiss his success as a result of being in the pen, but he’s young enough that he could make a legitimate transition back to the rotation and perform well.

As you know, it is easier to succeed in the pen than in the rotation. Many pitchers can succeed as relievers but not starters. He really doesn’t have the multiple quality pitches to be a decent SP.
Buckner was probably our best pitching prospect, but I liked that trade.

I don’t think any good prospect analyst thought Buckner was our best pitching prospect when that trade was made. IIRC, according to BA, BP and Sickels Buckner was a distant third behind Hochevar and Cortes (two pitching prospects with legitimately good upside). Buckner’s upside was and is decidedly limited. And he’s failing to impress this season. In AAA he has a 4.27 ERA but with really unimpressive peripherals (61 k and 38 bb in 105.1 ip).

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Jul 7, 2008 2:44 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Just a note

Wood’s stock has rightfully dropped a great deal—I don’t know about his defense, but I think the “his bat can play anywhere” ship has sailed…. way too many Ks. It’s starting to look like he’ll be lucky not to be the next Dallas McPherson.

Briganx maybe has a better chance of being decent, but 2006 is a long time ago.

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Jul 7, 2008 2:48 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

The only reason I'd be willing to trade Meche for Wood, Brignac or Lowrie

...is because if we free up that much money, I’m confident that Moore can use that money to help the team. In short, one of those young players + $10.5M is worth more to the Royals than Meche.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Jul 7, 2008 3:02 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

+1

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by marbotty on Jul 7, 2008 3:03 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

also, we have aviles or pena there in 2009

not sure if aviles is the real deal, but if he is, he can always move over to 2B and we’ll upgrade at two positions

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by marbotty on Jul 7, 2008 3:04 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I'd feel better about Brignac or (especially) Lowrie

It isn’t clear to me (and I mean I really don’t know) if Wood can play SS - the Angels are pretty good at jerking prospects around - maybe he was just blocked by the Angels usual mediocore “fast” guys with no pop (Izturis, Aybar) which would be stupid even for them, or maybe he really can’t cut it defensively at SS (and we know how well borderline defensive MIs fare under HillMoore).

That’s all I meant, just that I wasn’t sure about how Wood would fit on the team if he can’t cut it as SS, because 3B is taken, and his bat isn’t as appealing outside of the MI as it looked three years ago.

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Jul 7, 2008 7:37 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Not a Wood fan

In addition to the defense question, he currently profiles like Dallas McPherson or Joe Borchard as a guy who does not make enough contact for his power to matter or walk enough to keep him in the lineup in between occasional power blasts. Wood only has one more option year, and there is a good chance that he will not be major league ready by the end of next year. Like McPherson and Borchard, I think there is a not insignificant chance Wood eventually sees the waiver wire.

by Gopherballs on Jul 7, 2008 8:18 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Getting anything at all for Ambiorix Burgos

excites me about Moore’s chances as a GM. The fact that Banny looked great last year is icing on the cake; that he could sell that blown save machine to anyone is a major credit to him, IMHO.

Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!

by cmkeller on Jul 7, 2008 1:53 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

he had a very good 2007

so I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibilities.

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by marbotty on Jul 7, 2008 2:11 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

No, I don't think his 2007 was very good

If you only look at ERA (3.42), then yes it was pretty good. But his peripherals gave him a FIP of 4.68. He kept his ERA down with a freakishly lucky BABIP of .227. That’s 45 points lower than his expected BABIP of .272. And it’s not like he was keeping his BABIP with lots of groundballs, as his GB% was only 28.8%. On top of that, he did this in the weaker league with half of his games in a pitcher’s park. Taking all of that into account, I don’t know if that’s even a mediocre season. And I doubt he’s going to be better coming post-TJ surgery.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Jul 7, 2008 2:23 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

let's also not forget

Moore hasn’t traded away hitting to acquire those pitchers, he’s traded away pitchers to acquire them. So, while he’s generally upgraded the pen and rotation, he did give up some pitching in return.

In general, though, he’s acquitted himself quite well with those moves. The number of “promising” pitchers he’s acquired through trade is about 5 (Ramirez, Bannister, Cortes, Pimental, and B. Johnson.) That’s very good, considering he was trading away rent a players like Dessens and MacDougal, or guys with some control issues in DLR and Burgos. Burgos will probably be the only one of that group with a chance of being decent in the future, so that’s a big win for Moore.

The problem, then, is with Moore’s other type of trades. We’ve brought in Gload, Gathright, Pena, Shealy, and Callaspo—all of whom, at this juncture, look to be below average players. (There’s still hope for Callaspo, but the clocks running out.). However, to get these guys, we’ve given up three promising pitchers in the process: Howell, Buckner, and Cordier.

So, he hasn’t really built up our pitching as greatly as it would seem, at least through trades. Overall, we’re looking at a possible net gain of 2 useful pitchers.

So, that’s not really something to be upset about —but the worrisome part is that, if pitching is the currency of baseball, as Moore contends - when we’re trading pitching for pitching, we’re coming out slightly ahead, but when we’re trading pitching for hitting, we’re only getting back pennies on the dollar.

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by marbotty on Jul 7, 2008 12:42 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

The problem, then, is with Moore’s other type of trades. We’ve brought in Gload, Gathright, Pena, Shealy, and Callaspo—all of whom, at this juncture, look to be below average players. (There’s still hope for Callaspo, but the clocks running out.)

I completely reject the notion that Callaspo looks to be below average or that the “clock is running out.” He’s got a good OBP now in little playing time. If he’s allowed to play everyday, he’ll be at last a league average 2B.
However, to get these guys, we’ve given up three promising pitchers in the process: Howell, Buckner, and Cordier.

Howell looks to be a pretty good lefty reliever, and that’s all. Cordier hasn’t been promising for a long time. One major knee injury and two Tommy John surgeries. He’s only a little more promising as a MLB pitcher than I am. And Buckner projects as a back-of-the-rotation pitcher or reliever. His promise is very, very limited.
So, he hasn’t really built up our pitching as greatly as it would seem, at least through trades

Moore has done a great job of building up the pitching in the organization through trade, the draft and free agency. It isn’t just trades, but I don’t know why that is important.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Jul 7, 2008 12:53 PM EDT