Hillman managing scared?
by Trumanroyal on Jul 9, 2008 9:18 AM EDT
72 comments
When watching the game last night, I got the distinct feeling that Hillman was scared of confrontation. I have not been able to watch many games this year, but recently we started getting the games in the town I currently live in.
I have read that Hillman has not stood behind his coaches when tough guy Guillen was having problems. (Though I am not sure of the truth behind this one.) Then last night, when Gordon got hosed on two bad strike calls and struck out, Hillman came out. I was excited. He was showing emotion. He was supporting the team. I watched further, and realized that he wasn't arguing. He was talking it out. Then again in the 10th, I think (maybe 11th), when German drew contact, Hillman sure enough was back on the field. He didn't argue, although that play would have likely lost the game for the Royals. Instead, he talked it out and probably got a lunch date with the nice infield umpire with the large mustache.
We need a coach that will sack up and get tossed if need be. If the umpire blows a call like last night, and Hillman does not get more fired up, there is something wrong. Although i have never liked Pinella, he seems to be an upgrade over the sackless guy in the dugout whose main concern is that everyone likes him. Am I the only one who became angry at him, and not the team last night?
1 recs |
72 comments
|
Email
Print
Comments
disagree on last night
getting tossed fires up a team that is slumping. that wasn’t the royals problem last night. the umps made a couple of inconsistent calls.
by Hillman going out and essentially calling out the ump, but not arguing, I believe it tends to help even things out. the ump will open or close up the strike zone for an inning or so.
I was not a big fan of Hillman early in the season, but the manager choices (baserunning and bullpen use) that were costing us games aren’t happening much any more. I think Hillman’s even attitude is perfect for this team at this point.
I don't care one way or the other
But last night was one of the worst nights of umpiring I have ever seen and I’m usually the last one to complain about umpiring. Alex Gordon’s strikeout in the 11th was a complete joke.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
Does "sacking up and getting tossed" help the team win?
I don’t think so. I think it makes some fans feel better, but that’s about it.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
Earl Weaver sucked!!!111
No understanding of the importance of bunting/defending the bunt
(Yeah, I’ve read Baseball Dynasties, and know that earlier in his career he was traditional, but you get the point)
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Jul 9, 2008 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
DMGM should keep this by his phone
“Team speed, for crissakes, you get expletive fleas on the [expletive] bases, getting picked off trying to steal, getting thrown out, taking runs away from you. You get them big [expletive] who can hit the [expletive] ball out the ballpark and you can’t make any [expletive] mistakes.”
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Jul 9, 2008 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I love that quote
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
by NHZ on Jul 9, 2008 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions
All these years I thought it was a "sac" bunt -- "sack bunts" are a lot better
which one was Billy tryijng to do?
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Jul 9, 2008 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
His lack of getting ejected was not why I was pissed at Hillman
Although I would have been ejected relatively early (Probably 9th inning for arguing balls and strikes), Hillman kept his cool. In the 10th on the German obstruction, I would have been ejected and Hillman should have put up more of a fight. But you can’t blame him for keeping his cool. Instead, I’m mad at Trey for the worst managerial move of the year, something Buddy Bell would not have tried. You do not bunt with the organization’s best hitter, a fat guy who has bunted twice in five years. I don’t care if the situation calls for it, the guy is more likely to hit a game winning double or homer than to execute that properly given his past. Instead, bunt double play (second game in a row for us) and threat over. Trey ‘sacked’ up and took the blame and called it a ‘bad decision’ later, but that does not make it go away or excuse him for this foolish thinking. FIRE TREY HILLMAN for his strategical buffoonery, not for his lack of getting kicked out when most of us would have.
Never giving up on your team is what makes you a good fan.
by kcisbetterthanstlateverything on Jul 9, 2008 12:23 PM EDT reply actions
I also forgot that he refused to stick up for his player
when the same terrible home plate umpire had to be calmed down for screaming at Horacio Ramirez after he reacted negatively to a terrible check-swing call by the 1b umpire. The umpire WANTED to kick Ramirez out and it was obvious to the point that he took off his mask and took a couple steps towards the mound yelling. Classless. Unprofessional. That crew needs to be suspended for last night’s performance, but Hillman should have been kicked out for accusing the ump of being unprofessional and screaming at him for that. Bad umpiring is one thing, and it happens as we all know. But umps cannot be unprofessional like that, and Hillman should have told him so.
Never giving up on your team is what makes you a good fan.
by kcisbetterthanstlateverything on Jul 9, 2008 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
He did stick up for his player and he kept H.Ram from getting kicked out of the game
He did his job. What would have been gained if he argued more vociferously and got kicked out? And the ump taking off his mask to tell H.Ram to shut up is not unprofessional.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
H. Ram was calmed already when the ump was yelling at him
I remember seeing H. Ram mouth ‘I was reacting, sorry’ to the umpire, which had no effect on the ump’s continued yelling at Ramirez. Hillman went out to calm down the umpire more than to defend his player, which should never have to happen. Ramirez was fine.
Never giving up on your team is what makes you a good fan.
by kcisbetterthanstlateverything on Jul 9, 2008 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
He went out to protect his player
...and he did so effectively. Getting tossed wouldn’t have helped the situation any.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
Butler is the organization's best hitter?
And do you really want Hillman fired because of that?
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
not BECAUSE of that, but that is the last straw for me ever defending him
the love for TPJ and Gload, most of which probably comes from above, is the worst thing. The constant sacrificing and mental screw ups kill me too. But Butler should never have to do that. Managers’ first job is to put players in the position they need to be in to be successful. Managers fail when they ask players to do more or less than they’re capable of or more or less than the situation calls for. With most of our hitters, a sacrifice is a good idea there. But Butler is not a guy to ask to do that. Trey put his player in a position to fail, and he admitted as much after the game. The problem is this is just the most recent example.
Never giving up on your team is what makes you a good fan.
by kcisbetterthanstlateverything on Jul 9, 2008 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Ok
I’ve been critical of Hillman as well, but I’m not in favor of firing him. Yet again, he’s doing what the vast majority of managers would do. He’s doing some things wrong that some other managers wouldn’t do and he’s doing some things right that some other managers wouldn’t do. But overall, he’s a standard, fairly traditional, middle-of-the-road manager. There’s no reason to fire him. Anyone else the Royals bring in would be essentially the same.
You don’t fire a manager every year just because you don’t like some calls he makes. If you went by this method, the Royals (and just about every team) would have a new manager every few months.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
Hillman is weak
He is continually getting ran over by not only his own players (Jose Guillen) but the umpire crew as well. It is called sticking up for your team and managing to WIN. His decisions continue to grow tiresome.
Check Swing (Hello Hillman has the best angle in the stadium on that one)
Obstruction at second base
Whats the use of Yimmy if you can’t bring him in against Thome? Thome is 1-7 no XB’s hit 4 K’s
Bunting Butler (2 Sac bunts in ML something tells me both are under Hillman as coach, wonder if his H.S. coach ever had him sac bunt?)
Split mentioned the team had a college feel with the rally caps. That seems to fit since Hillman is a college manager.
Who cares about RBI's, how many HDB's you got?
Butler
Had two sacrifice bunts in his minor league career.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
He's not getting "run over" by anyone
I’m all for valid criticisms of a manager (and Hillman certainly deserves some critcism), but this is just silly. If you have a player like Guillen, you don’t go to war with him; you deal with him. And more arguing and getting kicked out of games won’t help the Royals win any more games. It will just placate some fans.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
Its called defending the 25 man roster. If they are out there busting there ass for you then you need to do something for them besides writing on a lineup card. NY you are a numbers guy I don’t know if you ever played the game but I know watching my coach get kicked out of a game trying to defend me and my teammates puts an extra pep in your step. It alligns everyone for a common goal for one game at least. He is line with the increased man-pussification of our society.
Who cares about RBI's, how many HDB's you got?
on the flip side of that
it can be argued that’s a very amateur take on the situation…that pro players have seen too much ball in their time to really get motivated by some fiery speeches.
I guess different mindsets get affected differently, but if you want to inject personal experience, I have played ball my whole life and watching my manager argue/get tossed never affected me, instead, when the opposing team’s guy got tossed, i thought that was a good thing cause they lost leadership.
by ZeppelinDZ on Jul 9, 2008 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Extra pep in their step
This is why he should get himself kicked out of a game? So he can put some “extra pep in their steps?” I don’t know what level you played at, but this is major league baseball. These guys aren’t going to get fired up and play at a higher level just because their manager goes out and gets tossed over something minor.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
That is exactly the response I would expect from you.
These guys do need to find motivation from other sources. They play 162 games a season and it could become as routine as any other every day job. A rah rah speach everyday does become monotonous but a manager actually taking your side and defending you does change things. The manager has very few opportunities in a season to actually show that he there defending his team/players. Hillman has yet to prove any of that.
Who cares about RBI's, how many HDB's you got?
he did take up for them.
he saved ramirez from getting thrown out of the game the one instance. the second time, if he goes out like a madman, theres no chance the umpires get together to talk about the play…which was the only way it was going to be corrected. trey sucked ass last night, but his lack of arguing wasnt even part of my issue
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Jul 9, 2008 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly
He needed to support his players and argue his team’s side, but getting kicked out of a game isn’t going to do a damn thing. Thinking that players get motivated their manager’s ejection is psychological guesswork at best. Criticizing a manager for not getting tossed is baseless.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
Baseless
His team has continually got the shortend of the stick all year. There were at least 3 instances where his team got hosed last night. By all the sabermetric methods of playing baseball managers are typically useless and KC would be as highly productive to assign a mathmetician to punch in the numbers and spit out the proper percentage plan on every hitter. They would win more games that way. Unfortunately these guys aren’t robots and any edge that you could give them is helpful. Any manager who calls out an umpiring crew is directly calling attention to their performance. They are graded like players are elvaluated during every game. After a manager directly calls out their performance he should in turn get the umpire on his so called A game as he now knows that the crew will be held under a high scrutiny. If he calls the umpiring crew out on the check swing call I think there is a higher chance the Royals get the Ramirez call at second base. Just a guess.
Who cares about RBI's, how many HDB's you got?
You're not seeing the other side
Yes, some umpires will “pay back” a manager who gets in their face with a “make-up” call later.
And some umpires will give the other team every call they possibly can for the rest of the game.
Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.
Base
His team has continually got the shortend of the stick all year.
I don’t think there is any reason to believe that the Royals have had more calls go against them than for them, or that the Royals have had more bad calls screw them than help them. None whatsoever. Fans of a team always feel like the umps are screwing their team because the bad calls that hurt your team always stick out in your mind more than the bad calls that help your team.
By all the sabermetric methods of playing baseball managers are typically useless and KC would be as highly productive to assign a mathmetician to punch in the numbers and spit out the proper percentage plan on every hitter.
That’s not at all true. I would prefer a robot.
They would win more games that way. Unfortunately these guys aren’t robots and any edge that you could give them is helpful.
Ok, but there is no reason to believe that a manager getting himself kicked out actually gives his team an edge.
Any manager who calls out an umpiring crew is directly calling attention to their performance. They are graded like players are elvaluated during every game. After a manager directly calls out their performance he should in turn get the umpire on his so called A game as he now knows that the crew will be held under a high scrutiny.
First, I think a manager should argue sometimes and Hillman certainly did last night. I don’t know how much it helps, but it should be done sometimes. Second, I don’t think we can say with any degree of certainty that arguing (or getting kicked out) improves umpire performance. It might (but I doubt it). It also might help get calls for your team in the future (makeup calls) or might hurt your chance to get calls in the future (because the ump is pissed at the manager and his team). All we can do is make half-assed guesses at the psychological effect of arguing on the players and umpires.
Third, as far as evaluations go, MLB evaluates the umpires on every game, not just on games in which managers argue with umpires or when managers get kicked out.
If he calls the umpiring crew out on the check swing call I think there is a higher chance the Royals get the Ramirez call at second base. Just a guess.
Just a guess. And one could also guess that it wouldn’t have any effect on a future play like the interference play or affect it negatively. All we can do is guess.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Jul 9, 2008 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Can we all just get along?
Why not build a robot who is really good at math and gets kicked out of games?
“Command link severed. Default setting: crush, kill, destroy.”
I think Wall-E might do a good job, too.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Jul 9, 2008 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I like this a lot
The great ting is that after Robomanager [(c) 2008] gets ejected and then banned from baseball, we can just create another one. We can have a whole army of Robomanagers who make perfect sabermetric decisions and who destroy the worst umpires. Everybody wins.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
I am not saying that he needs to get ejected.
Getting ejected does not help a team win. Showing emotion does. By Hillman not getting worked up on those key plays makes it appear to the fans, and more importantly the players, that he is accepting bad calls and that these calls do not bother him.
I think that a dedicated manager would have and should have been tossed after the downfall of bad calls in that game. Even if the manager isn’t furious of the bad calls, act like it. Show up for your players.
Showing emotion helps teams win?
What do you base that on? Very few managers show much emotion. Is there any evidence to support the contention that more emotion from a manager increases wins? I think that is something that fans feel, but there’s no evidence that players feel that way.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
But Bobby Cox
is the all-time leader in ejections, and look how many championships he’s won!!11one
Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.
Butler and the sac
Personally, I would have had Butler hit away there – but I don’t have the knowledge of Billy’s skills that Hillman should have. I would have done that because even if he sacs successfully, the CWS simply walk Gload to set up the DP.
We found out that Butler has only sacrificed successfully twice in his entire professional career. Yes, that is evidence - but not necessarily conclusive. Trey's job is to put his players in position to succeed; accordingly, he must have knowledge of Butler's ability/inability to bunt. Did he? Or was he just guessing? Well, judging by his post game comments alluding that it may have been a mistake, I would say he was simply guessing that Butler could bunt. THAT is what we should be concerned about - was Hillman adequately prepared to make a good decision in that situation?I should also point out that yes, Butler should be able to bunt – but considering he spent his entire minor league career batting 3rd or 4th, is it any real surprise he had little practical experience with it?
Also, I have to disagree with Splitt, who sorta was saying that players bunt everday in BP. Good Lord, that doesn’t prepare you for bunting in a real game! BP is meat fastballs thrown at below average speed.
by loyal2sdad on Jul 9, 2008 1:56 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
In general
It doesn’t really matter who it is, sac bunts in that situation are for pitchers and Tony Pena, Jr. (assuming he can get it down)
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Jul 9, 2008 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
bad assumption
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Jul 9, 2008 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
LOL
first time I read your response, I didn’t re-read my post, and thought you were disagreeing witht the notion that in general sac bunts with two on are dumb, then I re-read exactly what my “assumption” was. Heh.
Pretty good for a former Mets fan who follows the Royals because he loves Butler.
(winky face)
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Jul 9, 2008 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I actually
Kinda get bunting in late inning situations in a tie game. If you’re going to bunt, that’s the situation to do it.
But bunting with Billy Butler is still stoooopid.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
I think lost is all this talk about the bunt
Butler’s bunt wasn’t the problem. It wasn’t a good bunt, but it was serviceable. Teahen got a HORRIBLE jump from 1st for a sac bunt being called, the likelihood of a pop out/throw out DP is very low on those situations so he should have been able to at least make a close play at 2b. He wasn’t even close enough to challenge the SS. On top of that, butler stood there and admired his bunt before running, makeing the DP that much easier.
The choice to bunt was poor, but what made that play fail was 2 players (who still have a lot to prove!) who didn’t hustle at all.
If Teahen goes on to prove
anything other than he’s Mark Teahen, Likeable Player But Official Tweener, I’ll go streaking through cambridge. Butler’s the one with the upside.
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
by NHZ on Jul 9, 2008 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah...ideally teahen is a supersub....
a guy who can play all 3 OF positions and the Corner IF and get 250-300 ABs…mostly against righties
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Jul 9, 2008 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
teahen has smiled enough and given enough interviews to where he doesnt get called out for stuff
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Jul 9, 2008 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
ture story
its how bad players stick around…get really friendly with the media and fans, so your GM is in a catch-22 with getting rid of you. Damn you Mark Teahen! We will get you eventually!!!
actually i like teahen on the team, solid role-player, but whatever
i havent been listening to kietman today, but i'd bet anything that he doesnt..
bring up marks lack of hustle/getting a good jump…even though its very likely he will bring up billys
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Jul 9, 2008 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
If you're saying that some sports talk radio show guy takes it easy on Teahen, then I'll take your word for it
What sports talk radio hots say is about as meaningful as an average PCP induced crazed rant.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
yeah...but that is part of my point....
that teahen’s mistakes are completely glossed over by nearly everyone, while guys like jose say the wrong thing and all the sudden the ‘should be released’
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Jul 9, 2008 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought he'd be all over Billy
But he has been glowing about how much the Royals looked like they were trying hard, playing with the enthusiasm of Little Leaguers, etc. He thought that was a great game to watch.
Weird.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
Attempted bunts, whatever the outcome, make up for strategic stupidity, general incompetence, etc.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Jul 9, 2008 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm a little surprised at how much people are overreacting to last night's game
...as if it was full of obvious screw ups. I hated the attempted sac bunt, but that was the only big mistake. As a team the Royals did some things right, some things wrong and came up one run short.
But I am probably underestimating the Royals sack deficit.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
I know Royals fans hate the White Sox
But it might be OK to admit that they’re a pretty good team this year, and losing to them is no disgrace.
Not everyone can be the Baltimore Orioles, you know.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Jul 9, 2008 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
The reality is that Teahen doesn't make a lot of mistakes
I mean, he strikes out a lot, doesn’t get enough extra base hits and too often gets poor reads on flyballs, but he doesn’t make a lot of mental mistakes. He’s an excellent baserunner.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
Are people really turning on Teahen?
I realize everyone’s disappointed that he’s not the next Jason Giambi, or even a guy who can hit like a really corner OF (yet). I am, too. But I’m not sure he’s been even close enough to being overrated for the blogosphere to start turning on him as another “guy overrated by the evil corporate mainstream media.”
I guess I need to start hate likeable players. More Guillens and Bondses, please!
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Jul 9, 2008 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Teahen
But I’m not sure he’s been even close enough to being overrated for the blogosphere to start turning on him as another "guy overrated by the evil corporate mainstream media."
Yes, well, everyone was hoping he’d re-establish his power a bit this year. It’s more about our own expectations, in this case, than media hype.
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
by NHZ on Jul 9, 2008 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Take two: "I guess I need to start hating likeable players if I'm going to be a real blog commentator."
(“X” arms over chest a la Kodos as Bob Dole) “End Transmission”
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Jul 9, 2008 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Some have really turned on him
I think the breakdown on fan feeling on Teahen goes something like this:
5% – Think he’s a very good/great player who is going to turn it around and be the 2005 Teahen again sometime/eventually
10% – Think he’s a good player who will improve enough to become an average corner OFer
75% – He’s a pretty good player who probably isn’t good enough to be a starting corner OFer, but would make a very good superutility guy (RF, LF, 1B, 3B, PH) who you wouldn’t mind getting more than a few starts and 350 AB per season.
10% – Hate him because he sucks (“sucks” meaning that he’s not good enough to be a corner OFer and therefore they “hate” him)
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
At least some of that "Hates" 10%
Hate him directly because he was part of the poor Beltran trade.
No matter how irrational that may be.
Yes, that is part of the irrationality mix that goes into why some hate him
How dare he get traded for!!!!!!
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
DFA BUCK AND TEAHaN!!!
So I don’t have to be reminded of the Beltran trade on a daily basis!!!!
And find Mike Wood, wherever he is, sign him, then immediately DFA him!!!
count me in that 75%....i think he'd be superb in that role
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Jul 9, 2008 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions
If Mark Teahen is your supersub
You probably have a pretty good team offensively.
That should be the goal to work towards.
Geez, make him a supersub now!
A lot easier way to upgrade the offense than signing expensive free agents and making a bunch of trades.
8^)
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Jul 10, 2008 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Getting a huge jump on a sac bunt attempt on this team is dangerous
as far too many of the bunt attempts are popped right back up into the air.
It would be especially dangerous getting a can’t-go-back jump when you have a guy who never bunts at the plate—he’s more likely to TPJ it than most.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
Related FanPosts on Royals Review
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Certain photos copyright © 2010 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
