THE ROYALS EVERLASTING WEAKNESS, BEING WEAK
GMDM's most recent move - HoRam for some light hitting speedster - chaps my rear-end. My ire is not directed towards the idea of moving HoRam when his stock has never been (and possibly never will be) higher, its directed at the return.
Throughout the entire existence of the Royals they/we have had a complete lack of power - see team single season homerun leader, Steve Balboni - 36 homers (Yuck).
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This team is going nowhere until a real power hitter or 2 . . . or 3 - god forbid, is entrenched in the middle of the lineup. One guy with power is not enough, which is something we haven't had since we briefly featured a lineup of Sweeney/Beltran/Dye.
As a matter of fact - not 1 American Leage playoff team has hit less than 140 team homeruns and had only one 20 + homerun hitter other than the 2007 Angels (123 and Vlad - 27 hrs) - but they had a 4.23 team ERA - and they were swept in the 1st round, since the 1995 New York Yankees (122 and Paul O'Neill - 22 hrs). Those Yanks were defeated in the 1st round by the Mariners. Marinate on that for a moment.
Not one American League team has reached the ALCS with less than 140 team homers since the 1991 Toronto Blue Jays (133). That was before the Wild Card!!!!
The last time the Royals had more than one player reach or breach the 20 homer plateau - 2002 - they had 140 team homeruns. Ibanez hit 24 homers, Sweeney hit 24 homers and Beltran hit 29 homers. The team ERA that year was 5.21!!
This team is going nowhere until, in addition to the quality of pitching being increased, the aggregate power is increased. Not one GMDM trade has brought any power to this team (Ryan Shealy doesn't count). Signing Olivo and Guillen was a nice stop-gap, but it is slightly disturbing that nothing else that GMDM has done has shown any organizational emphasis or care about adding power.
The moving of HoRam for yet another light hitting outfielder (the organization must now have 15 guys that fit this mold) leaves me scratching my head. If this new guy is the best HoRam could return, why make the move? There is no upside to this type of player for the Royals. Maybe teams like the Red Sox or Yankees could value a speed guy because the added spice of speed to their already powerful lineups could create a dynamic mix. The Royals are woefully lacking power. We have Gathright, Teahen, DeJesus, Maier, Costa, etc. Why add another outfielder with no power?
Besides - they don't make speedsters like they used to.
2 recs |
101 comments
Comments
wow
I am sure that Dayton turned down a power hitter just so he could get “another speed guy.” There is no downside to moves like this. We flipped a average (at best) reliever for a younger player with upside. I really would have liked to get a player that would hit 30 HR but you aren’t going to get someone like that for Horam.
by gordonrules on Aug 10, 2008 11:19 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
Ho-Ram sucks. If anything, getting a living, breathing player for Ho-Ram is one of DMGM’s more impressive moves.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Aug 10, 2008 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The big rumor going around is that Dayton Moore turned down an offer of H.Ramirez for Wladimir Balentien again
Correction:
the rumor going around is that Dayton Moore turned down an offer for Wladimir Balentien again
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Aug 10, 2008 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ho-Ram and other issues
I am not sure what purpose the move made myself, but I don’t think this move longterm is going to hurt the team. The younger player has value, and it’s not like Ho-Ram is winning the Cy Young next year, is it? I do think GMDM has tried to address the power issue, and I’m sorry Shealy does count (he was a blocked power-hitting prospect if you recall) and I think the Guillen signing tried to address this as well. When GMDM came, he had to make a complete overhaul of the roster. He started with the pitching staff and has improved that greatly, and the past two drafts have been encouraging. In reality, we will have to draft wisely, so that we can develop power hitters, because we will have a hard time paying market value for them. GMDM has made this team more competitive, and will continue to upgrade the offense. It just won’t happen overnight, especially with younger players still developing. We just need a little patience, but as a fan that’s waited a longtime for the next Royals playoff team, I realize it can be frustrating.
by lordbyronk on Aug 10, 2008 11:29 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
Moore has made some attempts at improving the power both in the majors and the minors. Those efforts have been insufficient and of limited success. But he can’t completely rebuild the organization’s starting pitching, relief pitching, contact hitting and power hitting in 2 years and 2 months. He prioritized pitching. I think he’s been moving more in the direction of hitting with the signing of Guillen. There is much more work to be done. If he doesn’t take a significant step forward this offseason with regard to improving the MLB team’s hitting, that will be a major knock against him.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Aug 10, 2008 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think so. The priority of the Royals is to build their minor league system back up to where it needs to be. The team needs a base. Just like a pitcher or hitter needs to learn the base before they move up to fine tunning such as hand placement. If you don’t have a base underneath you, you’ll always be off balance. Look at the Royals team of the past regime. No base. And what where those teams? Off balance just throw together what we can type of teams. Yeah we had a few good players, but nothing that we could keep together.
Don't forget to send your broken maples to the US Forest Service.
by 306008 on Aug 10, 2008 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure teams were lining up to offer a power hitting prospect in return for H. Ramirez
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Aug 10, 2008 11:35 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
A-Rod Maybe
oh yeah, that was if we threw in Jimmy Gobble too…I forgot.
by lordbyronk on Aug 10, 2008 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
missing the point
there is no doubt that no power hitter of value would have been offered for HoRam.
my point is what is the need for a no bat outfielder????? horam has been very effective out of the pen for us. if not parlaying horam into more pitching or an infielder/catcher (if a power hitting OF is not possible – which it likely isn’t) why make any move? we don’t need another outfielder with no power.
by royalstern05 on Aug 10, 2008 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"No bat"
He’s got some decent isolated power and hits some HR’s in a pitcher’s league. He’s got some upside and projectability which is as much as one can get for a mediocre rental like H. Ramirez. You don’t know anything about Orlando except for his stats and you are reading them very selectively. I’m not saying he’s a good prospect. But I’d rather flip H.Ramirez for a mediocre prospect than keep him around for no good reason so he can help the Royals play out the string.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Aug 10, 2008 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and i'd rather try and have a respectable season . . .
and build a winning culture than have a no impact “C” prospect.
by royalstern05 on Aug 10, 2008 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you realize that a middle reliever isn't going to affect wins and losses much over 1 2/3 months?
The difference between H.Ramirez and a replacement player over that period of time is considerably less than 10 runs, and therefore less than one win. So we shouldn’t trade H.Ramirez because maybe it means one less win for the team? That one win (maybe) is the difference between building a winning culture or not building one? Please.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Aug 10, 2008 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's the problem with that.
Trying to have a respectable season when it’s already down to having to play .600 ball just to finish .500 is why bad teams continue to stay bad teams.
You’d rather compete over the next month and a half than make moves for the future. Thanks. You’re part of the reason my team has sucked for over a decade.
Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.
by jonfmorse on Aug 10, 2008 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
That’s what Allard Baird tried to do… have a decent MLB team with nothing behind it. And what did it do? Check the records of the managers the past ten years… If we went for a respectable season we’d get lucky and make the playoffs once out of every fifteen years. If we redevelop our organization, we can become a perennial CONTENDER.
Don't forget to send your broken maples to the US Forest Service.
by 306008 on Aug 10, 2008 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Plus
there is no guarantee that Ho-Ram would continue to perform at the level he’s played at now. I think it was a sell high move to get what we can get. I mean how many times have we seen a reliever be great one year and then suck the next?
by lordbyronk on Aug 10, 2008 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i have no problem with making "a" move . .
i have a problem with getting back a piece we have no need/use for – we have a glut of light hitting OF’s that we’re hoping will develop power – why add another?
by royalstern05 on Aug 10, 2008 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He has some potential
He’s not a scrappy slap hitter. Look at his stats. He has some talent and some upside potential. I’d rather have another one of those guys than have H.Ramirez play out the string for no good reason.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Aug 10, 2008 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
that there are other positional needs to be addressed particularly catcher and middle infielders, but Ho-Ram was freely available talent that performed above expectations and it was a sell high trade. I am not a huge fan of the trade, but at the same time it’s not going to hurt us longterm. Orlando could be something or he could be in A ball five years from now. He has more upside than Ramirez and ultimately I think that is what was the motivation for the trade. That and Ramirez value will never be higher.
by lordbyronk on Aug 10, 2008 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where is this "glut"?
Please, do name all the light-hitting speedy outfielders in our system we’re hoping will develop power.
Here’s a clue: You can’t name Gathright or Maier; nobody expects their power to develop.
Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.
by jonfmorse on Aug 10, 2008 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Glut
Lubanski, Dickerson, Dyson, Robinson, Ortiz, Suare, Duarte, Strait all are speedy and lack power. You can draft guys all you want and hope they develop power but it is still a crap shoot.
Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin
by kcscoliny on Aug 10, 2008 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Half those names don't belong with the others
Rowdy Hardy Fan Club member.
by doublestix on Aug 10, 2008 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you're showing that you don't know much about some of those guys
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Aug 10, 2008 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What are you talking about the majority are all speedy light hitters
don’t you hope all players develop some power. Or are all of our scouts saying to themselves this guy will become Joey Gathright jr. Lube definitely fits that profile he just lost his speed on the way, Dickerson is the best cadidate of the group, Dyson/Robinson are pure speed merchants who with their athleticism you would hope develop some pop. Ortiz was the fastest player in his draft Suero and Duarte are the spanish version of Dyson/Robinson in AA and Strait doesn’t belong on this list. The point is that this organization isn’t challenged with speed on any level. I would hope a scout saw potential for some sort of power out all these players I’m sure they did with Lube, Dickerson, Robinson and Dyson as they all were all great overall athletes when they were drafted and you hope a great athletes fill out and develop pop in their bat.
Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin
by kcscoliny on Aug 11, 2008 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There you go
Lube definitely fits that profile he just lost his speed on the way
The profile that you are talking about is “speedy but lacks power.” So, since Lubanski isn’t speedy anymore then he doesn’t “definitely fit that profile.”
Dickerson is the best cadidate of the group
Dickerson is a good hitter with some decent power for a young prospect. He definitely doesn’t fit in that group. And some other guys on that list have legitimate hitting skills and projectable bats.
Your overall point that there are too many speedy athlete types in the minors and not enough good hitters and power hitters is true. The problem is that your list was an overshoot and you included guys on that list which do not support your argument.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Aug 11, 2008 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Supportive Arguments
Please, do name all the light-hitting speedy outfielders in our system we’re hoping will develop power.
Dyson-Draft report stated 80 speed with some pop in his bat.
Lubanski- Was also a “Athlete” with a blue jean selling body as reported by many. Say what you will the goal was to have a power hitting speedy outfielder unfortunately he’ll probably never reach either.
Ortiz/Robinson-Both the fastest players in their draft. I would be surprised if they didn’t think Robinson would develop some pop in his bat being a great overall athlete.
Duarte/Suero-Both fast defensive outfielders, Duarte is named best defensive outfielder and best arm in the system.
Orlando closest companion is probably that of Lubanski but Paulo has less power than Chris at that level and is also older.
Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin
by kcscoliny on Aug 11, 2008 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're argument that this is Dayton's philosophy
doesn’t hold up very well when you name players he didn’t draft and recently exposed to the Rule 5 Draft (Lubanski)
by I need more Esteban on Aug 11, 2008 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I realize these aren't all GMDM players but
a few are D.Robinson,Dyson and Ortiz are all GMDM draft picks. I was just listing the glut of speedy no power guys that we have in the system.
Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin
by kcscoliny on Aug 11, 2008 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Moore had nothing to do with the '06 draft
Maybe Hochevar, but that’s it.
Rowdy Hardy Fan Club member.
by doublestix on Aug 11, 2008 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Correct
The “glut” list gets smaller and smaller.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Aug 11, 2008 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In the end
it doesn’t matter who drafted who he asked who the glut of speedy lighting hitting players who we or the organization hopes will develop power and all listed qualify.
Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin
by kcscoliny on Aug 11, 2008 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't we and the organization hope that every minor leaguer will develop power?
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Aug 11, 2008 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes that was my point too
he asked for speedy light hitting players we hope will develop power and I gave him the list “glut”.
Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin
by kcscoliny on Aug 11, 2008 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd be very curious to know
how different our amount of “spedy light hitting players” are to other teams around the league. I don’t have the time to research it but my guess would be that it isn’t that much different than any other organization.
The Reason: There are A LOT more players like this, than patient, power filled guys. Organizations will draft a good number of them just hoping that 1 or even 2 could develop into something more. The patient, OBP, power hitting guys you speak of…....They are all drafted in the first round! Luckily, the Royals have gotten two of them in the last two drafts. Let’s be happy about that.
I think your’e argument is way off, you probably knew that by now, though.
by I need more Esteban on Aug 12, 2008 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
add another
because most prospects fail and if we can finally get a guy with some real speed and the ability to hit/ get on base to be our leadoff guy then we will be much better off
by I need more Esteban on Aug 10, 2008 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does anyone else find that picture of DMGM a bit worrisome?
I mean, I realize that GMing is a hard job, but didn’t he come to KC with nary a grey hair? It’s only been a bit over two years?

Is he secretly Dominican? Where’s his birth certificate?
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Aug 10, 2008 11:40 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
by the way - doesn't this trade give you de ja vu . . .
jp howell for gathright????
by royalstern05 on Aug 10, 2008 11:44 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Only in a totally superficial sense
Howell was 23, with upside, and on this rookie contract
Ho-Ram is 28 year-old with a well-established record of mediocre-to-absolutely-terrible performance who will be a FA at the end of the season (I believe)
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Aug 10, 2008 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're kidding, right?
Howell was still a prospect. H.Ramirez is a failed major leaguer scrap heap pick up who has been pretty good as a low leverage middle reliever. Getting anything for H. Ramirez is a good deal. And it makes sense to flip for any minor leaguer with any amount of talent and upside potential.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Aug 10, 2008 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you need to be less abrasive in how you respond on this website
by royalstern05 on Aug 10, 2008 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps
I certainly could be. I don’t know that I’d say that I “need” to be. I can say that I probably won’t be.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Aug 10, 2008 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
haha
I actually laughed out loud there
by I need more Esteban on Aug 10, 2008 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you want less abrasive, go back to kindergarten. This is real life. People disagree.
Don't forget to send your broken maples to the US Forest Service.
by 306008 on Aug 10, 2008 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I Was Abrasive
In kindergarten.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Aug 11, 2008 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I heard they called you "Mr. Sandpaper"
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by marbotty on Aug 11, 2008 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One Scouts take on Orlando from BA
CAROLINA IN MY MIND
• One look at Winston-Salem outfielder Paulo Orlando’s speed from first to third made scouts in attendance do a double-take during a recent Warthogs series at Kinston.
“I’m getting 4.25 (seconds) down the line,” one scout from a National League club said, “but it seems like he’s 4.25 from first to third. When he gets going, he’s one of the fastest guys I’ve seen this year.”
The 21-year-old doesn’t have that initial quick burst of speed out of the box, but the former Brazilian track champion in both the 100- and 200-meter relays is an 80 runner on the 20-80 scouting scale. And it’s a different kind of speed. It’s not short, sparkplug Joey Gathright-like wheels. Orlando’s speed is long and angular based on his 6-foot-3, 170-pound wiry-strong frame.
Signed out of Brazil in 2005 along with 2006 Futures Gamer Anderson Gomez by assistant general manager Dave Wilder, Orlando is the more advanced hitter of the two.
“It’s impressive how polished his at-bats are, based on his experience level,” the scout said. “He’s got good pitch recognition, plate discipline—he’s got a good idea of the strike zone with some barrel awareness and above-average bat speed. This is a guy.”
Through 97 at-bats, Orlando was holding his own on the field, hitting .278/.317/.392.
“He’s a quiet, reserved kid that’s still feeling his way through, still trying to find some self-esteem in some ways, I think,” White Sox farm director Alan Regier said. “There’s not a lot of baseball experience with him.”
Orlando started playing baseball when he was 14 on weekends in Brazil with Japanese players who introduced the game to the South American country.
“He’s legitimately one of the fastest, if not the fastest player in the minor leagues,” Regier said. “And that speed is one thing, but we’re absolutely thrilled with how he’s handled himself, how he’s been patient in the box, his route-running in center field. Even when he doesn’t take the best route in the world, he’s got closing speed to make up for it.”
I’m still not excited by the profile as it is still similar to what KC has at that level already. We’ll see about him next year as he will probably open the season at AA.
Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin
by kcscoliny on Aug 10, 2008 12:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm still mad at Dayton
He trades for Paulo Orlando, and doesn’t even bother getting Kenny to through in Dawn? Orlando is nothing without Dawn.
(shaking head)
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Aug 10, 2008 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dawn has some power
So Dayton is not interested.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Aug 10, 2008 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like this optomistic scout. Hopefully the kid develops as he becomes more confidenct in his english and game.
Don't forget to send your broken maples to the US Forest Service.
by 306008 on Aug 10, 2008 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Trade
I certainly hope Orlando works out for us, but speed only works if you get on base.
by BlueBloodRoyal on Aug 10, 2008 12:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
KC might not win many games but a 4X100 relay team of
Derrick Robinson, Paulo Orlando, Joey Gathright and Jarred Dyson might net us a silver or bronze at the 2012 olympics.
Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin
by kcscoliny on Aug 10, 2008 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
forget 2012.
The time is now. 2008.
Don't forget to send your broken maples to the US Forest Service.
by 306008 on Aug 10, 2008 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Too late Glass would never pay for a plane ticket to Beijing
too close couldn’t get a good rate.
Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin
by kcscoliny on Aug 10, 2008 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Ryan Shealy doesn't count"
Now wait just one cottonpicking minute! Shealy doesn’t count but somehow this Orlando kid counts against him? Obviously I understand your point, but the Shealy acquisition was clearly an attempt to infuse some power into the lineup. It didn’t work, but that was the idea.
by raefzilla on Aug 10, 2008 12:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
fine - he's made 1 trade for a power bat . . .
and the bat turned out to have no big league future.
by royalstern05 on Aug 10, 2008 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm going to give a anti-rec to all fanposts with all-cap titles
We’re better than that.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Aug 10, 2008 1:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i'm anti-rec'ing you as a human
you must be a supporter of china hosting the olympics!
by royalstern05 on Aug 10, 2008 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This post calls for a rec (so I gave it one)
Not only am I a supporter of China hosting the olympics, I’m also rooting for China in every event (including badminton, which I’m watching right now).
[But for real, all caps isn’t a good idea.]
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Aug 10, 2008 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
perhaps
I’LL TAKE IT under advisement.
by royalstern05 on Aug 10, 2008 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just my 2 cents
Good move, something for nothing, sell high, etc. Bullpen arms are largely fungible, which DM seems to get.
My question is, is that Mark Quinn in the upper right-hand corner of the poster? One of the legendary “4 horsemen”? Let’s see, which one of these is not like the other? Just for the record, I absolutely LOVED Mark Quinn. I thought he was going to be awesome. What a letdown. But, oh what a kung fu master!
I hereby resign from this post.
by Home Run Tony Cogan on Aug 10, 2008 2:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You don't acquire great power
by trading 28 year old scrap heap relievers. You acquire power through the draft and free agent signings. The best way being, the draft.
2007 – The Royals use the number 2 pick to draft Mike Moustakas, a HS SS/3B. He is hitting for great power at 19.
2008 – The Royals use the number 3 pick to draft Eric Hosmer, some say the best HS hitter in the draft. Most are confident we will sign him.
What is the problem? What do you want? We are not in fantasy land here. It all can’t come at once, DM concentrated on pitching when he first got here, now he seems to have shifted to getting some power in the organization, this is not a quick fix thing, and let’s hope that in 2010 we can really start to compete for the division.
If even one of those “light hitting, speed guys” turn into a good leadoff man then they will be a nice piece in a lineup of Moustakas, Hosmer, Butler, whoever else, think of the possibilities.
by I need more Esteban on Aug 10, 2008 2:51 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I completely agree with that assessment.
Let's go out and sell the farm for some power.
Our teams can’t be built on power. Pitching first. Defense second. In our park, speed third. Power fourth.
Don't forget to send your broken maples to the US Forest Service.
by 306008 on Aug 10, 2008 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we played in a crackerjack box we’d be after more power.
Don't forget to send your broken maples to the US Forest Service.
by 306008 on Aug 10, 2008 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ugh that'll lead to more
long losing seasons.
Pitching, plate discipline, power, speed, defense.
defense is the most important aspect to the game
Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin
by kcscoliny on Aug 10, 2008 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"What is the problem? What do you want?"
A lottery ticket. People look at this team which has sucked for years and whose minor-league system has been barren and unproductive, and they want it to be fixed tomorrow morning. They’d rather be average now than build something that can last.
Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.
by jonfmorse on Aug 10, 2008 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Huh
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
by NHZ on Aug 10, 2008 6:27 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
wha?
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by marbotty on Aug 11, 2008 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really didn't have much to say
beyond that I don’t think there’s much behind the idea that flipping a totally replaceable relief pitcher for a C prospect means anything about the organization’s philosophy beyond that Moore is pretty good at selling high.
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
by NHZ on Aug 11, 2008 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
nah, i was going with it
i wholeheartedly expected someone to respond to my comment with a “who?”
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by marbotty on Aug 12, 2008 5:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For as big a overreaction it is to be
mad about the trading of HoRam it is equally unrealistic to think this kid is gonna be a ML player. Fans just wanted something better not a retread of the same ole thing.
Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin
by kcscoliny on Aug 10, 2008 8:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What exactly did you expect?
We weren’t going to get a good prospect for Ramirez, and he wasn’t worth ponying up seven figures for IMO. So…I don’t get what you wanted to happen here. That’s not an overreaction.
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
by NHZ on Aug 10, 2008 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He wanted a power hitting prospect for H.Ramirez
And I wanted Matt Laporta. Amazingly neither of us got what we wanted.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Aug 10, 2008 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know we couldn't get a REAL prospect for HoRam
and maybe this is the best the White Sox had to offer. I would just like a change in GMDM scouting approach. Obviously he values athleticism over plate discipline, I would rather have a guy who takes a better approach at the plate. GMDM hasn’t made a move for a high OBP guy yet this summer will be a test to see if he can aquire one.
Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin
by kcscoliny on Aug 10, 2008 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
High OBP guys are valuable
He’d have to give up something of real value to get a guy like that. We’ll see if he adds some OBP and SLG this offseason. But I’m not aware of opportunities Moore had to get high OBP guys this summer.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Aug 10, 2008 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You didn't hear?
The Marlins offered us Hanley Ramirez for HoRam but Dayton Moore rejected it, saying that, “he had too much plate-discipline, and his speed is declining.”
by I need more Esteban on Aug 11, 2008 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
These type of comparisons have grown so old on here
I see it about every game thread and about anytime someone starts talking about trades on this site.
The Royals were offered Babe Ruth for Bum number one.
It is boring, old and no longer humerous please change the act or list your next knock knock joke.
Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin
by kcscoliny on Aug 11, 2008 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know what else gets old?
Complaining about every single trade that doesn’t get us a proven superstar. In other words, every trade. The hyperbole goes both ways around here.
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
by NHZ on Aug 11, 2008 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Good to see you are back and the authorities haven't uncovered the girl
tied up in your closet.
I think many people have a valid concern with GMDM lack of plate discipline players he is trading/aquiring. We have a long way to go before he has a full track record but what he has aquired so far lacks that part of the game.
Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin
by kcscoliny on Aug 11, 2008 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Expressing that genuine concern makes sense and would invite no ridicule or hyperbole
But when that “concern” is expressed by saying that Moore made a horrible move by trading the remains of H.Ramirez for a toolsy prospect and that he should have traded him for Nelson Cruz, you should expect many sarcastic jokes. They are well deserved.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Aug 11, 2008 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uh...
Good to see you are back and the authorities haven’t uncovered the girl tied up in your closet.
I know you’re joking, but that’s laying it on a bit thick, kcscoliny. I’ve been busy with work lately, both my summer job and for a class that I had an incomplete in, as well as studying for the GREs so it’s true I haven’t had as much time for blogging as usual.
I think many people have a valid concern with GMDM lack of plate discipline players he is trading/aquiring. We have a long way to go before he has a full track record but what he has aquired so far lacks that part of the game.
And I understand that concern, I just think that complaining over the return for a guy like HoRam isn’t really warranted here. Just like Davies-for-Dotel wasn’t really worth complaining over either. When you give up a player of negligible value, you’re not going to get a good OBP guy/potential top of the rotation guy in return unless you fleece the other team. I think you know this already, but I’m not sure other people do.
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
by NHZ on Aug 11, 2008 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please don't tell me that these the THE GRE's you're studying for, NHZ
You’re a good kid, and smart. You’re a lifeguard. I’m sure you’ll rock ‘em, but graduate school will consume your soul.
Unless 
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Aug 11, 2008 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only law school and business school will consume one's soul
Those kind of people drink children’s tears to quench their thirst.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Aug 11, 2008 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
Psychology Ph. D, here I come.
“And how do you feel about that?”
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
by NHZ on Aug 11, 2008 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Two Words
Tom Cruise.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Aug 12, 2008 2:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
I’m speechless.
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
by NHZ on Aug 11, 2008 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good For You
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Aug 12, 2008 2:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well,
to be fair to Moore, I think that a toolsy guy is pretty much what you’re going to get for a non-entity like HoRam. If the prospect was actualyl a good OBP guy…I doubt he’d be available for this trade.
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
by NHZ on Aug 10, 2008 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the guy had plate discipline NOW
And good stats, he’d be a top 50 prospect and we couldn’t dream of getting him.
Rowdy Hardy Fan Club member.
by doublestix on Aug 10, 2008 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can always dream, doublestix
Never give up hope, Kiddo.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Aug 10, 2008 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here is Rany's take from his blog.
“Even as I’m writing this, Moore has proven again that he gets it, because he just sent Horacio Ramirez to the White Sox in exchange for a toolsy outfield prospect named Paulo Orlando. Orlando’s a Grade C prospect because he’s still learning how to hit (.264/.310/.412 in A-ball) and he’s 22, but as Grade C prospects go he’s got a lot of upside. He’s fast as hell, plays great defense in center field, and he’s from Brazil, and as you would expect from a Brazilian baseball player, he has a lot less experience than most guys his age.
Given that the Royals picked up Horacio for nothing just three months ago, they just got an intriguing outfield prospect for free. Josh Newman, another lefty recently acquired on waivers, takes Horacio’s place. Given the nature of relief work and Moore’s track record, there’s no reason why Newman can’t be equally successful.” -Rany from Rany on the Royals
His whole article is about relief pitching and he closes with this. I think he is right on.
by I need more Esteban on Aug 11, 2008 9:52 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
In defense of this post:
First of all, let it be known that I have no problem with this trade. Getting something of even potential talent for a replaceable 28 yr old bullpen arm is fine with me.
I think royalstern has a valid concern, but it is more about how Dayton views a winning team in KC will need to look rather than this trade specifically. I think this trade just served to exacerbate royalstern’s concern.
It is an interesting debate. I think Moore has demonstrated a few times already that he considers outfield defense and speed of paramount importance when putting together a team playing in the K, with it’s humongous size. Personally, even though the K plays more or less as a neutral park overall, I believe it does depress HRs, and probably increases BABIP due to the OF size. My personal belief is it may be more difficult to assemble the correct type of team here, because one needs to try to win at home and on the road, but one’s home park is sorta an abberation as compared to all the other AL parks.
As an interesting point, I would direct everyone to look up the HR differential for the Royals this year, both home and on the road. It may surprise you. The Royals are not getting outhomered all that much on the road, but are getting slaughtered in that category at home. Does that mean I advocate moving the fences in at the K? Well, I don’t know, but I do know GMDM needs to have that long-term answer in his head prior to deciding which types of players to acquire via trades and the draft long term.
by loyal2sdad on Aug 11, 2008 4:24 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I still wonder what Moore's overall "building a winner" philosophy is
I think Moore has demonstrated a few times already that he considers outfield defense and speed of paramount importance when putting together a team playing in the K, with it’s humongous size.
While this may be true, but how then do we explain his strong interest in Jose Guillen? Both the scouts and the fielding metrics agreed going into the season that Guillen’s range was tiny, and yet Moore wanted him. He also attempted to acquire other players, but he was clearly happy to have Guillen. This is the kind of thing that tells me he isn’t wedded to just pitching and defense. I think he recognizes that you need a good mix (although he probably doesn’t agree with me on what a good mix is). He recognized going into this season that the team needed improved hitting and especially power, so he went out and got it, even though it meant a downgrade to a poor defender.
Another piece of evidence which gives me hope that Moore recognizes the importance of hitting and power is his first round draft choices of Moustakas and Hosmer. Both of them were big hitters whose defensive skills were essentially afterthought. They were drafted because they could hit. He could have gone with more athletic, speedy, guys who were plus defenders, but he went with the bashers instead.
Do these things mean that he has a great offensive philosophy? Definitely not. But they are at least some positive signs that should go into the mix with everything else. I think what he does this offseason is going to be very telling.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Aug 11, 2008 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Guillen choice is troubling for other reasons, of course
the rumors (and I emphasize rumors, since they’re filtered through) that the Royals were bidding against themselves, his mediocre (at best) plate discipline, basically a guy with a good arm and good power and an OBP that depends heavily on his BA (which, like most how the singles are falling for him any given year).
Whether or not Dayton could have got him for less is one question. It is true that the Guillen signing does show that DMGM is willing to look at a power-hitting, defensively-challenged OF. On the other hand, if also doesn’t show that Moore propery values OBP. It doesn’t show that he doesn’t value it properly, on its own, but I think (and NYRoyal, I think we’re in agreement here) overall it can be said that Dayton Moore still has a lot to prove as far as knowing how to build an offense, at best. That isn’t to say he has no clue—there isn’t enough evidence yet.
But (speaking subjectively now) I can personally understand why people have their doubts. The Ho-Ram deal doesn’t make a difference either way, for me. I think it’s a good way of getting a spec prospect for next to nothing.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Aug 11, 2008 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
in defense of jose
his walk rate has crashed to career lows this year, he used to be just below average
by ZeppelinDZ on Aug 12, 2008 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Aug 12, 2008 2:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think
Moore wanted Torii Hunter first, last, and foremost.
When that didn’t happen, I think he “settled” for Guillen.
This is just my opinion, but I think if there was another Hunter – type available, he wouldn’t have signed Guillen. I think he concluded, as you allude, that acquiring some power was worth the downgrade in defense.
As for Moustakas and Hosmer, so far they appear destined to be infielders, not outfielders. I still think, for his ideal team in the K, he would prefer outfield defense – especially if he was getting legit power from 3B, 1B, and DH. (We are not getting it from ANY of those positions right now).
by loyal2sdad on Aug 12, 2008 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Temporary insanity is the only explanation for signing guillen
by Kansas City Oracle on Aug 13, 2008 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Give me a break
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
by NHZ on Aug 13, 2008 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
On the other hand, if also doesn’t show that Moore propery values OBP
I think it is evidence that he doesn’t value plate discipline very highly, but not necessarily OBP. Other than his injury-shortened and injury-hampered season of 2006, Guillen’s recent OBP’s were .359. .352, .338, and .353. I don’t have a problem with those OBP’s. I fully expected his OBP to be up at the 335+ level based on prior performance.
overall it can be said that Dayton Moore still has a lot to prove as far as knowing how to build an offense, at best
We definitely agree on that. There are some negative pieces of evidence, but not enough evidence yet. I definitely have my doubts about Moore’s offensive philosophy and his ability to put together a good offensive team or organization.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Aug 11, 2008 5:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Pauly's the Nuggets
1-1 with a double and a BB. Callem up
Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin
by kcscoliny on Aug 11, 2008 8:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
triple in his 3rd AB
Pauly is gonna lead Wilmington to the High A title. Burlington/Wilmington/NW Ark titles in ‘08 World Series in 2010 (25 YEAR ANNIVERSARY OF THE GLORY DAYS)
Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin
by kcscoliny on Aug 11, 2008 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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