A growing (and moving?) Moose
Good to see more Moose love and love from scouts. Move to catcher, though? I don't know, I tend to like the idea of a corner spot or 1B. Catcher's just don't hold up as power hitters anymore (see Victor Martinez).
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I have been a proponent of moving him to catcher since they drafted him.
His body and arm projects there and his bat would become even more of a premium at catcher.
Its not like our minors are just overflowing with power hitting future corner OFs
not opposed to a move to catcher, but his bat will be ML ready before his glove will at catcher, rather have him sooner than later.
I think its worth discussing
It would definitely improve his value. I don’t think the transition to catcher is as difficult as a lot of people think it is. He already has a great arm, the tools are there.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
"I like the (bleep) out of him," he says. "His body has gotten a little soft, but this guy has a great swing."
hahahaha, I love this scout! He’s awsome.
How about we
Draft a guy that actually has a position once and leave him there? That is a novel concept I know!
he wasn't drafted for his defense KC already has a boatload of those guys
need some swing.
Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin
I understand that
But am I the only one that thinks just maybe the reason that our prospects don’t develop as others do is because we are shuttling them from position to position?
I don’t recall Longoria being switched from 3B to 1B to C to DH back to 3B for example…
I don't know if you are the only one thinking that, but I think you are definitely wrong
Prospects change position all the time, particularly HS draftees.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Aug 11, 2008 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
it did really hurt his development....
cost him two years of playing at the MLB level when it was fairly apparent to even me that he’d be a damn good CF and a pretty terrible shortstop
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Aug 11, 2008 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Did it hurt his development?
Would he have hit better if he had started at CF? One can only speculate. It’s certainly common for young players to not be great early in their careers and then improve.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Aug 11, 2008 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
sometimes you have to let a player play himself out of a position so that HE sees he can’t do it. Otherwise you have a whole bunch of unhappy prospects and they sit out for almost a whole season…. I thought we’d learned our lesson but appearently not judging from some of the comments….
Don't forget to send your broken maples to the US Forest Service.
Do you know how often HS draftees change position?
HS draftees were usually the best player and best athlete on their team by far, so they very often play a position which they are not prepared to excel at at higher level. There’s no reason to keep a guy at a position just because it was the position his HS coach thought he was best for given the other personnel on the team.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Aug 11, 2008 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
It's not just HS'ers w/ us
It seems to be a constant theme
Sweeney, Huber & Maier are other examples. Granted, they were more out of injury. Even at the ML level. We fuck around w/ Teahen until he is worthless at the plate. We shuttle pitchers from SP to RO til they are worthless (George, Gobble, Affeldt, et all).
I don't think the Royals do that anymore than any other organization
Sweeney and Huber were because they couldn’t handle the position. When a player shows that they can’t handle a position, you have to move them. Both were given a shot. With Huber, they kept looking for any position that he could handle defensively and never found one because he’s a horrible defensive player.
Even at the ML level. We fuck around w/ Teahen until he is worthless at the plate
When a team has two guys that need to play at the MLB level and they both play the same position, one has to move, right? Should they have gone with two third basemen? Of course one of them had to move. Teahen was the right choice. And he’s played the occasional first base, that’s all. Is there any evidence that changing position caused him to hit differently?
We shuttle pitchers from SP to RO til they are worthless (George, Gobble, Affeldt, et all).
Are you kidding? Yeah, we should have left George, Gobble and Affeldt in the starting rotation so they could all keep their ERA’s over 6. They gave these guys multiple shots at developing into good starting pitchers because each of them looked like they had the skills and potential. They never realized that potential, so they were moved to the bullpen. Do you think the moving back and forth from SP to RP made them worthless? Please.
This is what teams do. They try to find the best position for their players. They try to find the right position for their players. And they do what they have to do to find a position for their best 25 players. Often those things require players changing positions or playing multiple positions. And I don’t think this hurts their performance. A lack of talent hurts their performance.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Aug 11, 2008 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
umm...well...there is evidence that teahen's bat started sucking..
when he started changing positions…is that the reason?...no way to know for sure, but it couldnt have helped
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Aug 11, 2008 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
And there's on reason to believe it hurt
I mean, really.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Aug 11, 2008 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
his numbers have gone waaaaaaaaaaaay down...
more reason to believe it hurt then to believe it didnt
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Aug 11, 2008 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Correlation does not prove causation
So far it looks like he had one peak season which is much higher than the rest of the years. There’s no reason to believe that he failed to maintain that peak because he changed position. If he changed the brand of shoe he wore after that season, would there be more reason to believe that hurt his hitting than to believe it didn’t?
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Aug 11, 2008 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
yep.
something changed with teahen…really…who knows what it is?
my, you’ve changed your tone on teahen over the past 4 months…apparently you needed 400 more powerless at bats…2500 wasnt good enough i guess
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Aug 11, 2008 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I just don't give up on players as early and often as you do
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Aug 11, 2008 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
i've given up on two players and been right...
never have i wavered on them
i suppose i gave up on grudz as well, but thats just b/c its so fucking pointless for him to be on this team that it really pisses me off
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Aug 11, 2008 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Emotion is not the path to sound analysis and evaluation
When a good prospect has a poor rookie season, a great sophomore season and a mediocre third season, it’s too soon to give up on him. Sound analysis requires giving him at least another season. Your certitude is misplaced.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Aug 11, 2008 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
he wasnt THAT good of a prospect to begin with....
and my argument was that he wasnt going to have any power…which he hasnt…b/c outside of 300 ABs in 2006, he hasnt ever shown any…in like 2500 ABs…so we either need to be content with his below averageness or replace him….quit waiting for his power to come back…which is what you were advocating
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Aug 11, 2008 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions
What I was advocating
so we either need to be content with his below averageness or replace him….quit waiting for his power to come back…which is what you were advocating
What I was advocating was giving him this season to prove himself one way or another. As this was a rebuilding year, there was no downside to that. Giving up on him early would have helped us how? Think we could have found another good FA to take his spot? The only thing that made sense was giving him another year in the hope that his power came back to some significant degree. I know fans love to give up on players early, but it often isn’t wise. And yes, he was a good prospect. He wasn’t an elite prospect, but he was definitely a good prospect.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Aug 11, 2008 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions
it wasnt early
and he wasnt a good prospect if you look at the numbers…dude had 59 games where he put up good numbers…and i know you’re a fan of looking at the numbers in context of theleague and whatnot…he had a career OPS in the minors of less than 800 playing in the California league, texas league, and PCL…for a 3b that is pretty underwhelming…crazy as it is to say…he might actually be overachieving in the majors
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Aug 11, 2008 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Obviously Teahen progressed
as he moved up the chain. To say he’s overachieving right now makes very little sense.
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
he didnt really progress....
unless you just mean moving up levels…the numbers were fairly consistent…consistently mediocre
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Aug 11, 2008 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Well yes,
he did, because young players get better as they enter their prime. If he really stagnated, he would’ve stayed in AA.
Anyways, the point is moot. He’s here now, and a useful spare part. That’s probably it. He’s not a good starter.
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
yep...agreed on the last paragraph
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Aug 11, 2008 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Should've figured it out in A+
when the dude was 85th in the league in slugging in a hitters league. Why did any of us think he would develop power?
Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin
Because of the power
that he showed moving up through the system and the 18 home runs that he hit in 2006. Usually, power in a young player isn’t fluky. In Mark’s case, he might be an exception. What makes this tough is that his power seems to have gone AWOL right in line with him having shoulder surgery, so it might be that his potential got nerfed by that injury.
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
And then there was AA and AAA
AA .543 SLG
AAA .470 SLG
I’m not saying his minor league track record screamed guaranteed power hitter, but it’s not like he was a light bat slap hitter. He showed some power. If you are arguing that a poor power output in high-A ball when he was 21 determined that he would never be a good major league hitter (particularly when he hit much better than that at the two higher levels), then you are very wrong.
I hope you don’t “figure out” that other Royals prospects in A-ball won’t ever develop power because of how they hit at that level at a young age. But judging by comments you’ve made in another thread, you are doing just that.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Aug 12, 2008 2:17 AM EDT up reply actions
470 slugging in a hitters league is something to write home about?
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Aug 12, 2008 3:38 AM EDT up reply actions
No
But it also isn’t “no power.” That kind of SLG in the PCL translates to probably something in the lower .400’s. That hitting in the minors (at the ages he did it), coupled with what he’d done in the majors was why I thought he’d settle into something like a .425 SLG for the remainder of his MLB career.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Aug 12, 2008 3:43 AM EDT up reply actions
It just shows how everyone ignored the lack of pop
a .447 SLG wouldn’t put him in the Top 100 in ‘04. I think his overall athleticism was the intriguing part but really outside the 59 games in the Texas League he never showed much power until ‘06.
Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin
That is with him playing
in a lot of hitter leagues. California, Texas and PCL all are considered hitters leagues.
Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin
I don't think it was ignored
I think that Mark Teahen’s chance to be a decent power hitter died on the operating table in 2006.
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
Yeah, it wasn't ignored
I didn’t think he’d be a great power hitter, but I thought he’d have enough power for the OF, considering he usually has a high OBP. Power isn’t the only important hitting skill.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Aug 12, 2008 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Power isn't the only important stat
but it is tough to be a .800 OPS guy if your OBP is .335 with his kind of power.
Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin
Given that in 2006 and 2007, his OBP was basically .355
...I don’t think one should expect him to be a .335 OBP guy going forward. Or were both of those seasons of OBP a fluke too?
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Aug 12, 2008 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
no he's probably better than that
career line of .335 but either way he is far from a .450 SLG guy too if he gets his OBP back to the .350 range.
Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin
Maybe that is why I and pretty much everyone else
...is saying that he’s not good enough to be a starting corner OFer. But, of course, you don’t stop with a reasonable statement on Teahen. You have to go farther and say that he’s crap who everyone should have known would be worthless after his high-A season at age 21 and that a mediocre minor leaguer like Maier would be as good as him. The problem is, you let your emotions and disappointment taint your analysis, or at least your comments.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Aug 12, 2008 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Will you drop emotions
that is what you say to everyone who disagrees with you. I am using emotions instead of a reasonable view that he is below average. You are using your love of him as the emotional reason to keep him. You bang on Gload constantly but he has topped the 100 OPS mark twice. In fact the only thing dragging his career OPS below 100 is this down season and his 3 other seasons of under 30 games which you could make a valid argument that those small sample sizes drug him down. Now I can argue based on my past arguments that I wouldn’t want Gload on the roster but how can you justify it based on your past arguments about Teahen.
IMO Gload is a weight holding Butler back the same of Teahen on Costa or Maier not to mention the weight of the two salaries.
I am very consistent in the players I want on the roster. Performers and or players who have success in the minors and haven’t had a chance to prove their worth in the majors.
This team is moving towards a goal of ‘10 players like Teahen/Gload/Shealy have had their chance have served with little success get out of the way and give younger players with similar talent an opportunity that is my stance always has been. You can keep piping out emotion but you are holding onto your scouting reports/prospectus as emotion and not looking at the reality of the situation.
Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin
Also this team doesn't need to hold
backups on the roster. Backups are easy players to acquire in fact a team can go out and pick up multiple backups at any position by tossing a waiver claim and a low A ball player in return. Why clog up your ML roster with a guy like Teahen? Find a NL trading partner as he is a good player in that setting as I think Petro talked about today someone who needs a player who playes multiple positions for double switches. Get your A ball or higher pitcher back in return and move on.
Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin
Teahen is holding back Costa and Maier
The fact that you are championing crap like Maier and Costa tells me all that I need to know. I’m done with this particularly thread of inanity.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Aug 13, 2008 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm not championing them
they are probably just as crappy as Teahen. Even as a 4th OF Teahen isn’t that good of one. He can’t play CF and he proved he doesn’t play LF that well and he doesn’t hit in the ballpard of a RF’r. You just can’t see the forest thru the trees Teahen is slightly better than Costa and Maier but not 4m to league minimum better probably not even 1m to league minimum the gap is small.
Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin
It is almost comical
how you champion his ‘06 season when it is obviously a anomoly.
Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin
and emotion wasnt what led to my conclusions on teahen...
it was looking at like 6 years worth of data and making a pretty obvious conclusion
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Aug 11, 2008 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
“When a team has two guys that need to play at the MLB level and they both play the same position, one has to move, right? “
Well, no, it’s what the Royals do. From the Dye post…
When Justice returned, the Braves had a logjam in their outfield. They alleviated that by sending Justice and Grissom to the Indians for outfielder Kenny Lofton.
I realize I’m drawing heavily on hindsight with this comment, but seriously? Doesn’t it make more sense to trade Teahen and sign an OF’er, or use a natural OF’er like Costa who could SURELY have matched or bettered Teahens production over the last 2 years?
And, saying that every team shuttles pitchrers around like we did with those 3 and others is asinine. Look within our division! Tigers let Bonderman, Maroth et all get pelted around and take their lumps when the team was bad, not shuttle them back & forth. Twins had Santana in the Pen as a Rule 5 & immedietly inserted him in the rotation after, and did basically the same w/ Francisco. Cleveland had Cliff lee who was GOD AWFUL last year, and they left him in there and sent him down AS A STARTER when he couldn’t get anybody out, not shuffle him to the pen & back.
We are the ONLY organization that thinks starters can be fixed by switching them to mop-up relief guys and vice versa.
really?...rivera with the yanks was a starter
gagne was a starter
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Aug 11, 2008 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Again, totally different.
If we move Soria to a starter it will be totally different.
It is when Gobble/Affledt/whoever else was a reliever for 2 months, then a starter for 2 months is what I am talking about.
The ONLY example of it even coming close to working with us is w/ ZG, and he was in the pen out of, again, a totally different set of circumstances.
moving guys to the pen b/c they cant hack it as a starter...
is an intelligent move…sometimes guys ahead of your examples got hurt, necessitating that they move back for a few starts b/c they were better than other replacement options…your guys all became useful bullpen guys after being bad starters
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Aug 11, 2008 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
seems to have worked with greinke
though, don’t know if that’s comparable
This space intentionally left blank.
I realize I’m drawing heavily on hindsight with this comment, but seriously? Doesn’t it make more sense to trade Teahen and sign an OF’er, or use a natural OF’er like Costa who could SURELY have matched or bettered Teahens production over the last 2 years?
Trading Teahen was one way to go, but what could we have gotten for him? Who knows. But this team had multiple big holes that Teahen could fill. The Braves in your above scenario were not full of holes. A trade was necessary there so that a good player was not wasted on the bench. No one knew that Teahen’s numbers would drop to mediocre or worse. And no, based on what Costa has done in the majors, we can’t say that he would have matched Teahen’s performance.
And, saying that every team shuttles pitchrers around like we did with those 3 and others is asinine.
That’s pure bullshit. Let’s look at your examples.
Look within our division! Tigers let Bonderman, Maroth et all get pelted around and take their lumps when the team was bad, not shuttle them back & forth.
Bonder was a top, top prospect. He’s the kind of guy you keep in the rotation until he truly fails for like 3+ years. None of the Royals pitchers you mentioned were like that. And Maroth managed a roughly average ERA, so there was no need to consider moving him to the bullpen.
Twins had Santana in the Pen as a Rule 5 & immedietly inserted him in the rotation after,
They moved him right into the rotation as a full-time starter after his Rule 5 season? Wrong
2000 30 G, 5 GS (rule 5 season)
2001 15 G, 4 GS
2002 27 G, 14 GS
2003 45 G, 18 GS
They moved him back and forth from the rotation to the bullpen for a full three years after his Rule 5 season.
Cleveland had Cliff lee who was GOD AWFUL last year, and they left him in there and sent him down AS A STARTER when he couldn’t get anybody out, not shuffle him to the pen & back.
Lee has been at least pretty good for multiple years and then suddenly had a bad season. George, Affeldt and Gobble struggled as starters from the beginning with only occasional success. Their failure as starters is what necessitated moving them to the bullpen.
We are the ONLY organization that thinks starters can be fixed by switching them to mop-up relief guys and vice versa.
So the Royals are the only team that moves failed starters to the bullpen? That’s just plain nuts. How long have you been following baseball? Should I list for you a dozen pitchers from other teams that failed as starters and were moved to the bullpen?
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Aug 11, 2008 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Chris George and Affeldt were both A prospects. Gobble was at worst a B when we contributed to f’ing his career up by making him think he had to be perfect as a starter, or another demotion to the pen was coming.
I was mistaken on Santana, that is my mistake. Though, and I’m not sure on this, but given his low G totals, was he in the Minors working on starting and called up to fill holes weither in relief or as a starter as needed? I’m assuming that he wasn’t on the roster all season for example and only appeared in 15, & 27 G…
I was mistaken on Santana, that is my mistake. Though, and I’m not sure on this, but given his low G totals, was he in the Minors working on starting and called up to fill holes weither in relief or as a starter as needed? I’m assuming that he wasn’t on the roster all season for example and only appeared in 15, & 27 G…
No, he was in the majors all the time except for one rehab assignment in 2002. Any time he missed in the majors was due to injury.
Chris George and Affeldt were both A prospects. Gobble was at worst a B when we contributed to f’ing his career up by making him think he had to be perfect as a starter, or another demotion to the pen was coming.
Off the top of my head, here’s a short list good pitching propects who failed as relievers and then split time between starting and relieving and then often became full-time relievers.
Josh Towers
Todd Van Poppel
Kirk Saarloos
Brandon Duckworth
Octavio Dotel
I could go on and on with examples. There are many dozens in the last several years. It is very common. Every organization does this.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Aug 11, 2008 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
there goes your argument...
you’re getting really desperate nwo
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Aug 11, 2008 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Offf the top of my head
Relevance to your previous argument – 0.
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
My point was
how many have really contributed?
Todd van Freaking poppel? Seriously?
Dotel has been a good reliever obviously. Saarloos, Duckworth, Towers, there’s nothing special there.
So, you’re telling me the goal is to have Affeldt = Van Popple, Gobble = Saarloos & George = Duckworth? And you’re telling me my argument is weak?
its better than affeldt equaling jose lima....
affeldt and gobble turned into valuable MLB relievers
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Aug 11, 2008 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I'll argue against myself for a moment...
A large factor in the failure of the guys that we have shuttled back & forth is the fact that they shouldn’t have been in KC to begin with. All of them neededmore time in MiLB than they got, which goes to the heart of the problem.
That said, I STRONGLY disagree with shuttling pitchers back & forth between roles. – this should be obvious.
It is Allard bairds fault for not finding a pitcher to have in the rotation as opposed to Gobble or whoever.
Most pitching prospects fail because they just aren't good enough to succeed
THAT is why they fail, not because they don’t have consistent roles. I would have thought this was so obvious that I didn’t have to even say it.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Aug 11, 2008 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions
how many have really contributed?
What is your point? Mostly they are failed prospects. Most prospects fail. That’s what usually happens.
Todd van Freaking poppel? Seriously?
At one time, he was the best pitching prospect in baseball. And then he failed over and over again. Then he was tried in the bullpen, and failed yet again. Eventually he was out of baseball. Do you think they just should have kept him in the rotation to fail forever? Do you think he wouldn’t have failed if they had just stuck with him as a starter? Most.pitching.prospects.fail.period.
So, you’re telling me the goal is to have Affeldt = Van Popple, Gobble = Saarloos & George = Duckworth? And you’re telling me my argument is weak?
Your argument is weaker than Stephen Hawking. You’re under the impression that good pitching prospects always or even usually succeed. You seem to think that if a pitching prospect fails, it is because he was handled or used poorly. That’s a horrible, awful argument. Most pitching prospects fail, even the really good pitching prospects. Organizations will stick with a guy as a starter for a while, but eventually those failures move to the bullpen. That’s what happens.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Aug 11, 2008 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions
NO
I am not under the impression that all good prospects succeed.
TVP is another example of a guy that was in MLB just because the org though he “should” be ready. He came to Oakland at NINETEEN (which sounds more like allard Baird misuse that i laid out earlier). Who knows how good he could have been if given proper seasoning in MiLB
I am under the impression that they succeed more if given the opportunity to exceed at one assignment, as opposed to not knowing if they are a starter or a reliever for that month.
They are given the opportunity to succeed as starters, and they fail
Then they usually move to the bullpen and get some other chances as a starter here and there. That makes sense, and that’s why every team does it.
What would you have done with Chris George, for instance?
2001 13 G, 13 GS, 5.59 ERA
2002 6 G, 6 GS, 5.60
2003 18 G, 18 GS, 7.11
2004 10 G, 7 GS, 7.23
I guess those 3 relief relief appearances really ruined him as a pitcher.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Aug 11, 2008 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Post Affledt’s or Gobble’s G/GS splits, they are more condusive to the bullpen/starter connundrum. I would, but I am leaving the office, be back on in about an hour
The problem is that you can't prove (or even support, in my opinion) the contention that this caused their poor performances
They were both pretty good pitching prospects who just weren’t good enough to be starters. The Royals gave them a chance (actually several chances) to succeed as starters and they couldn’t do it. So they both eventually found the only role they were good at: LOOGY. Should the Royals have just kept them as starters to fail year after year just for the sake of consistency?
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Aug 11, 2008 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I know
That is is an unwinable argument, it basically comes down to a philosophy.
A guy like Robinson Tejada is a guy that fits in to how I would handle a pitcher. He has been tried as a starter as nauseum. As long as the R’s keep him in the pen, where he has been effective so far, I’m fine w/ that. The same w/ Ho Ram.
The way that Affeldt & Gobble specifically (I was a casual fan during Georges years, I really thought he was shuttled back & forth a lot more than he apparently was) would start for a while, then relieve for a while, then start for a while is unacceptable in my view.
If they wanted JA to be a starter, and he wasn’t succeeding, Omaha should have been his destination, not the ‘pen. And I don’t know what the viable options were, but you have to remember, they found SOMEBODY to start in his place, so you are just looking for a bullpen arm from AAA or AA at that point, not another starter. Even our weak farm system of the early 00’s could have found a ‘pen arm to pitch on a 100 loss team.
So if we messed him up so bad
why hasn’t another team made Affeldt a starter since he left here?
Maybe another factor you should look at when talking about Jeremy Affeldt is that he could never keep his damn blister problem under control, starting for him became very tough because of that.
by I need more Esteban on Aug 11, 2008 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions
+100
Affeldt went to the pen initially precisely due to the blister problem. He was able to handle an inning or two without it becoming a problem.
He returned to the rotation after a surgical procedure which, as I recall, removed part of the fingernail which appeared to be causing the problem. But then it started up again, and that was that for Jeremy Affeldt as a starter.
Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.
Brett Myers is a current one off the top of my headq
he’s been shuffled back and forth the last 2 years like crazy.
by I need more Esteban on Aug 11, 2008 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions
You're right.
Just think how much better all our lives would be if we’d just left Bret Saberhagen at shortstop!
Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.
Amos Otis was a third baseman.
Danny Tartabull was a shortstop. Mike Sweeney was a catcher. Ron Mahay was an outfielder.
Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.
Mahay was moved b/c he was not going to be an OF’er ever and he chose it.
Sweeney was already mentioned.
Completely different set of circumstances than moving a guy like Teahen from a natural position to something he hadn’t played since (if I remember correctly) little league.
His natural position?
By advanced fielding metrics, he was one of the worst defensive third basemen in baseball in his last season at that position.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Aug 11, 2008 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
So, we should give him 3 seasons of below mediocre results at the plate, to see if he ever turns out to be any good, but you drew the conclusion that he was one of the worst defensive 3B in the league based on 1 season, his RC season?
Thats consistent
Hitting goes up and down and can improve greatly in a player’s mid-20’s. Defense is much more consistent. A poor defensive player can improve, but usually not by a lot. And you give Teahen a few years to prove himself because 1) he showed greatness in one season, so we know it is possible, and 2) there are multiple big holes on the team, so it’s not like he’s blocking anyone. Giving up on him would have made no sense and would have been to no good purpose. There were more pressing holes on the team to fill. Now it is time to fill the hole that he occupies.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Aug 11, 2008 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
The problem with that argument
...is that you are providing two examples. There are many more examples that go in the other direction.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Aug 11, 2008 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Mauer hasn't held up
The past two years he missed a third of each season.
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
and his bat really hasnt developed all that much either...
his power has been pretty mediocre…he was projected to hit quite a few more home runs than he has
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Aug 11, 2008 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions
ya, i still wonder about mauer
he has the tools to be better
the thing with most of this thread is all this is circumstantial. Each player has a different development curve, and we never really know the alternative. what would these guys have done if handled differently, better worst, its all hearsay
not saying he's not a good bat
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Aug 11, 2008 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't move him to catcher
I think the idea of moving him to catcher comes from scouts who are following an old, conventional wisdom that a certain body type requires a certain position. If you have X height and Y weight and Z body shape, then you are supposed to be a catcher. I don’t buy that. I think a lot of IFers and OFers could handle the catcher position. That doesn’t mean they should switch position.
And I think there is some real developmental downside to moving him to catcher. Moving from SS to 3B or even from the IF to the OF involves learning new skills but is not a radical change. Moving to catcher is a major, radical change. I think that could definitely affect the development of his hitting. And his hitting is his real value. I really don’t want to mess with that.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
I think you're right.
I never reeally expected Moose to stick at short, but was hopeful that he could at least hack it at 2B. Is there reason to believe at this point that he can’t? I guess this move is an indictment of his fielding in a way. (Or it’s an indictment of our organizational depth at C.)
Still, if this was the plan all along, it sort of makes you wonder why they didn’t just draft Wieters.
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I doubt the organization is going
to move him to catcher or they would’ve done it already. He is going to A+ next year and with the young talented pitchers that will be there with him Duffy, Cegarra, Gutierrez, Mitchell etc would you really want a first timer calling pitches. That would not be a good idea not only could he hurt his hitting abilities but he would could also damage pitchers confidence by his game calling. I think they will take the Braun approach with Moose leave him at 3b if it takes him a little while (1 year at a time) to get to the pros he will stay there dependent on what Alex does, if he takes the fast track skipping multiple levels during seasons then they will move him to the OF.
Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin
I don't see evidence that the organization is actually considering this
Mellinger said he talked to “one scout” but didn’t even say if it was a Royals scout. And Mellinger said something like that Moustakas might be moving, but didn’t go beyond that. Where is he getting this from? Anyone in the front office? Are they even considering this?
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Aug 11, 2008 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
and thats what makes me happy...
i think it wouldve been a terrible idea if they had done it at the outset….but an even stupider idea had they waited this long to do it.
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Aug 11, 2008 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
good catch
and good news. looks like speculation more than anything at this point
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And who knows, maybe they are considering it
But I’d like to see some evidence of that, before I think there is a real chance that it might happen. It is a pretty radical change and an unconventional, uncommon move, so I think it is unlikely.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Aug 11, 2008 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions
And I think there is some real developmental downside to moving him to catcher.
Is there any evidence of this though? Aside from anecdotes?
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
well, there's conjecture and hearsay
which are kinds of evidence
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by marbotty on Aug 11, 2008 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
That's why they're the scouts
and we’re the computer-typing guys
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Aug 11, 2008 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't think moving to catcher in and of itself is a problem
However, the move itself, unlike most other positional moves, will delay his arrival in Kansas City by a full year, and that’s something to be avoided at all costs.
Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.
be nice to see him in powder blue whilst Butler and Gordon are roaming the field
not after they have been traded
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Ole Bam Bam now there is a guy that should've been moved to catcher
it would’ve delayed his time to the majors but he definitely has the hands and I’ve heard the arm for the position. Definitely has the body for the position couple more years of his workout program and he probably wouldn’t need to wear a chest protector either as he’ll have a built in one below his chest.
Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin
Body type wisdom
Kila isn’t the ideal size for a slugging first baseman! He’s almost exactly the same size as, well, for the sake of confidentiality, let’s call him A. Rodriguez….no, that’s too obvious, let’s call him Alex R. Disaster…
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Aug 11, 2008 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Just stick him in RF and watch him rake.
Rowdy Hardy Fan Club member.
by doublestix on Aug 11, 2008 2:30 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
here’s an idea. Let’s make him
a pitcher so he never swings it again.Don't forget to send your broken maples to the US Forest Service.
I’m annoyed by all the bickering today. Maybe that’s because school starts this week and I have to go to work but we’re sounding like jr high students.
Don't forget to send your broken maples to the US Forest Service.
Welcome to Royals Review!
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by Matt Klaassen on Aug 11, 2008 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions
That should be the banner title of the week
“Royals Review: bickering like junior high school students.”
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Aug 11, 2008 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions
But to explain most of my bickering in this thread
I’m all for valid criticisms of this organization. I’d just prefer that they are fair. One of the more annoying types of criticisms is where a fan points to something that the organization/FO/GM/manager does that every other organization/FO/GM/manager does and has done for years and acts like we are uniquely stupid because we do this. Often, as the cherry on top, they say that this thing (which every other organization/FO/GM/manager does) is the reason this team has been losing for years.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by Scott McKinney on Aug 11, 2008 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
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