Royals Payroll Plus v. 2.0

by NYRoyal on Aug 12, 2008 4:49 AM EDT Comment 109 comments

A month ago, I posted the first version of this. I have since made some corrections and additions. The most notable additions are the columns for service time (ST) and options remaining (Opt). Both service time and options remaining are as of the start of the 2008 season, and does not count any service time from this season. I used the same shorthand that is used at Cot's Baseball Contracts. It is not a true decimal. It refers to the seasons and days of service time a player has. For instance, 1.158 means one season and 158 days, with 172 constituting a full season.

I'm going to need help with the options remaining. I basically tried to figure it out off the top of my head. I know many of those players are out of options, but I'm sure some of those are wrong. Feel free to add any information, which I will include in the next updated version.

I also put together a projection of next year's salary commitments including all current guaranteed contracts and arbitration estimates.

I guess this is as good of a time as any to discuss re-signing, exercising options, offering arbitration and possible arbitration awards. The above projection includes the following guesses/estimates:

Grudzielanek - not re-signed

Olivo - option not exercised (this also assumes that is contract contains a clause that the Royals will not offer him arbitration, thus making him a FA if he is deemed not yet eligible)

Teahen - $4M arb. est.

Buck - $4M arb. est.

Greinke - $4M arb. est.

Bale - non-tendered

Gobble - $2.5M arb. est. (also a non-tender candidate)

Hochevar - $1.2M (he is still getting paid under the original MLB contract he signed when drafted. It was not disclosed how much he gets each year, but it was reported he got this much in 2008)

Gathright - $1M arb. est.

Bannister - $1.75M arb. est.

Davies - $.75M arb. est.

Pena - released (perhaps DFA'd and then signed to a minor league deal)

Duckworth - non-tendered

Tsao - non-tendered

Smith - non-tendered

Hudson - non-tendered

If all of the above were to happen, that would put the 2009 commitments at about $61M.

3 recs | Comment 109 comments

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Comments

looks about right

i guess the big question is what Glass will allow as a total payroll for 2009

by ZeppelinDZ on Aug 12, 2008 10:02 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

oh, and we do cover berroa's 500k buyout i believe

by ZeppelinDZ on Aug 12, 2008 10:03 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

It's in there

$4.75M salary + $500K buyout = $5.25M

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Aug 12, 2008 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Great Post.

I would definitely non-tender Gobble if it would cost $2.5 million. He could easily be replace by a Neal Musser type pitcher for league minimum.

Joey Gathright for $1 million should also be traded or non-tendered. Mitch Maier could replace him and outperform him for league minimum.

Mark Teahen at $4 million is also getting a bit expensive for the type of 4th OF production he provides but they will probably give him one last shot next year.

I think Greinke will make around $6 million. Erik Bedard is making $7 million this year in his 5th season. He has been slightly more productive than Greinke but not by a whole lot.

by djk royal on Aug 12, 2008 10:03 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Mark Teahen

needs to probably go. We all have said that he is probably no more than a 4th OF’r at that point this team is operating on a tight budget. $3.5M extra they are paying him over a minimum paid Costa/Maier or any number of the KC of’r could be used elsewhere.

Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin

by kcscoliny on Aug 12, 2008 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The only problem is...

to replace him with anyone but a Shane Costa type player you’re going to have to shell out a lot more than $4 million for one year. So if they can’t work out a trade to bring in a young OF they’re going to have to pay a lot of money in free agency to replace him.

by djk royal on Aug 12, 2008 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I dunno about that

He has a OPS+ of 86. I think you can find someone to do that at the league minimum. Now, you may think Teahen is capable of more than that and he’s just having a down year. That’s really the only case you can make for keeping him around. Based on just this year, he should be non-tendered.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Aug 12, 2008 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I am not familiar with what KC's options are with players like

Teahen but I could think that Costa(who I am not a big fan of) or Maier could probably produce similar results with a significant decreae in pay.

Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin

by kcscoliny on Aug 12, 2008 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Their options with Teahen are

They can either (a) agree on a contract with him; (b) go to arbitration with him; or© non-tender him, making him a free agent.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Aug 12, 2008 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think he's having a down year.

He can OPS+ around 95-100. Which makes him a little below average for his position. If they are confident they can replace that for a league minimum player then by all means non-tender him.

by djk royal on Aug 12, 2008 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Greinke

I think Greinke will make around $6 million. Erik Bedard is making $7 million this year in his 5th season. He has been slightly more productive than Greinke but not by a whole lot.

Arbitrators look at the player’s last two years and go by traditional/antiquated notions of production. Before Bedard got his $7M (a settlement reached, the two sides were at $6M and $8M), his prior two seasons were:

378.1 ip
28-16
3.50 ERA

Going with the numbers Greinke is currently projected to have for 2008 plus last year:

326 ip
19-18
1 Save
3.85 ERA

I think an arbitrator would think that Greinke’s production is a notch below Bedard’s. The fact that Greinke spent most of the 2007 season in the bullpen as a setup man while Bedard was a starter the whole time, racking up more IP and Wins significantly affects his arbitration value.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Aug 12, 2008 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Great work

I think Gathright and Gobble will certainly be non-tendered. I definitely would. They are not worth spending much more than the league minimum on.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Aug 12, 2008 10:20 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

It is possible that they could both be non-tendered

But Gathright is still cheap. $600K over league minimum isn’t much. And I think they value his speed and defense. Theoretically, if the Royals signed Dunn or Burrell to go along with Guillen and DeJesus, one could argue that such an OF would desperately need a good defensive replacement.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Aug 12, 2008 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Mitch Maier is better defensively than Gathright IMO.

by djk royal on Aug 12, 2008 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't know

I’m not a Gathright fan at all, but it really looks to me like he’s improved significantly this year in the field. Better reads, and of course he covers a lot of ground with his speed. But I’d like to see what his UZR is at the end of the season.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Aug 12, 2008 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Really?

I think the one good thing I can say about Gator this year is that his defense improved.

A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.

by NHZ on Aug 12, 2008 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Gator's highlight reel plays

outnumber his mistakes this year, and he suddenly came up with an actual arm to boot.

Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.

by jonfmorse on Aug 12, 2008 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Maier may very well be the defensive equivalent of Gathright

Just my observation, but what I’ve seen so far, he looks pretty damn good defensively.

Good jumps, good routes, and while his arm is not strong, he, so far, has shown he has baseball instinct; i.e., he always makes the right throw to the right base.

Joey looked improved to me this year as well – but I still saw the occasional bad read and his baseball instincts are simply not as good as Maier’s. Granted, he can mask most of that with his speed, so I’m comfortable calling them equal.

by loyal2sdad on Aug 12, 2008 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

equal now

I’m not saying Maier’s great, but he might develop into something more. Gathright’s at his ceiling right now, I’d bet.

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Aug 13, 2008 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

What, no complaints yet...

...about Gload being overpaid?! ...Man does that Yabuta deal look horrible right now. I think he’ll come around, but in the meantime he’s an expensive project. Finally, I hate to say this, but Bannister sure looks expensive for a 5th starter (at best, as of right now). – TL

by timlacy on Aug 12, 2008 11:28 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Another non-tender candidate

Esteban German. No way he’s worth paying $2 million for.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Aug 12, 2008 11:32 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

As well as Joel Peralta

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Aug 12, 2008 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That depends on what you expect from Joel going forward

This season looks a lot different from his other Royals seasons. And $1.2M isn’t a lot of money.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Aug 12, 2008 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wouldn't be very surprised

if they non-tendered him. Then again, he’s been better lately.

A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.

by NHZ on Aug 12, 2008 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He's definitely a non-tender candidate

But he’s cheap. And even if they don’t like him, they should offer him arbitration and trade him. Even after a down year, he has some value.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Aug 12, 2008 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I can't see him having much value

I wouldn’t be surprised if they non-tendered him and tried to bring him back on a minor league deal.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Aug 12, 2008 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Does he really have that kind of value?

I mean, does a reliever who can give you 70-90 ip per season with a 4.16 ERA and 7 k/9 really have minimal value?

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Aug 12, 2008 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I retract my statement

I forgot how good he’s been. He will likely be tendered.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Aug 12, 2008 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think German is worth a $2 million dollar one year deal.

If he played more he would be productive offensively IMO.

by djk royal on Aug 12, 2008 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm thinking

He’s probably going to start declining at his age, and we can probably find a similar skill set on the open market for less.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Aug 12, 2008 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

he already has to quite an extent

very replaceable, especially with all the 2b options we have

by ZeppelinDZ on Aug 12, 2008 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

German depends on how much confidence they have in Callaspo

and if they don’t sign a SS. Callaspo should be the starting 2b if they keep Aviles at SS at that point KC needs to decide what they keep. IMO I would get a backup SS in case Aviles is a one year wonder. KC doesn’t need another year of extras at the most easily replaceable position on the field 2b.

Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin

by kcscoliny on Aug 12, 2008 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Jason Smith

Has “backup infielder” written all over him.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Aug 12, 2008 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Is that written in small print

in between all the “waste of space”s written all over him in big letters?

Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.

by jonfmorse on Aug 12, 2008 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Don't waste money on a backup SS for next year

If they mysteriously start contending halfway through the season, they can always get a TPJ type for nothing to sit on the bench. Use Aviles as your starter, and have someone like German on the bench who can play 2B (sort of). If Aviles goes down in a game or for a short period, move Callaspo over and put German/other utility guy (if the “other” guy can’t play SS) at 2B. Short-term bad defense isn’t the end of the world.

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Aug 13, 2008 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

How do you feel about acquiring Furcal or Hudson?

Then you’d have a middle IF combo of Aviles-Hudson or Furcal-Aviles. Those two guys probably wouldn’t be my first choice, but of the top tier free agents, they’d probably be my third and fourth choices.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Aug 13, 2008 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why not keep Olivo?

I thought he’s done well for us. He’s better than any other available backup catcher, he can DH, he’s good in a fight. And maybe we can flip him at deadline if someone else’s catcher goes down.

Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!

by cmkeller on Aug 12, 2008 12:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

He has a player option and will likely decline to pursue a starting job.

by djk royal on Aug 12, 2008 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ah, my mistake

I thought the “MO” by his line in the chart was a “CO”.

Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!

by cmkeller on Aug 12, 2008 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The good news though.

He may very well qualify as a type B free agent and if he declines arbitration, which he likely would, we would receive a sandwich pick.

by djk royal on Aug 12, 2008 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not enough service time.

Rowdy Hardy Fan Club member.

by doublestix on Aug 12, 2008 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Really? I was just going off what Rany wrote awhile back

Olivo can opt out at the end of the season, and If he does, there’s a good chance he’ll be a Type B free agent – you have to rank in the top 40% at your position to do so, and the rankings take into account performance over the last two seasons. The exact formula was created by the Elias Sports Bureau, which means it’s both Byzantine and not particularly reflective of reality, but playing time factors heavily into the equation. Olivo was a full-time starter last year and at least a half-time player this year, so the odds are in favor that he’ll get a new contract, the Royals will make use of their shrewd acquisition of Brayan Pena, and get another draft pick for their troubles.

by djk royal on Aug 12, 2008 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If Cots is correct about his service time, he is one day short

But there are no public official service time numbers, so Cots could be wrong. But the existence of a mutual option for 2009 in his contract probably means that there is a clause requiring the Royals to not offer him arbitration (IMO). If so, there would be no compensation.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Aug 12, 2008 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

What will Glass authorize for payroll?

That is the big question. Considering the guy is about to turn a profit (AGAIN) this season, and the fact that GMDM has stated he envisions a payroll of around $80m as sustainable in this market (and that was presumably in today’s dollars), and the fact that he has received some corporate welfare from Jackson County to go along with his corporate welfare from MLB, and the fact that revenue could skyrocket due to the ballpark renovations…

I will be supremely PISSED if they don’t make a serious commitment to a free agent or two this off season. I’m not talking about a 12m commitment like this last off season – I mean a commitment to a GENUINE #3 or #4 hitter. A guy like that will probably run 15-20 million per, but that would be fine with me.

I think the payroll should be $80-$90 million next year, because the plan should be nearing fruition, as our young core starts to mature.

by loyal2sdad on Aug 12, 2008 1:15 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs

Luckily for Royals fans...

I believe Avilanche was called up late enough in the year that you can push his free agency back a year on the chart!

by djk royal on Aug 12, 2008 2:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Does anyone have any insight on the options?

I have a strong feeling that at last 15% of them are wrong.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Aug 12, 2008 2:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

sometimes the teams themselves don't even know

I remember a few weeks ago when the White Sox wanted to make a move, thought a reliever was out of options, then found out a day later he had one left

by royalsreview on Aug 12, 2008 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

RamRam is out of options

That’s why Colorado had to trade him.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Aug 12, 2008 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's right

Good catch.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Aug 12, 2008 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Aviles should have three options shouldn't he?

I don’t believe he has ever had an option used.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Aug 12, 2008 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I guessed that he was on the 40-man roster to start the season

If true, then he would have had to have been optioned to Omaha before the season started to assign him there. If he was not on the 40-man roster until he was called up this year, then no options have been used.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Aug 12, 2008 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He was exposed to the Rule V draft so I don't think he was on the 40 man roster.

by djk royal on Aug 12, 2008 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He wasn't on the 40 man til he got called up.

Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin

by kcscoliny on Aug 12, 2008 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I thought you were wrong with Luke

but then I remembered he signed a major league deal.

You are, however, wrong on Aviles; he still had 3 options coming into the season, having never been on the 40 and all. ;)

Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.

by jonfmorse on Aug 12, 2008 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Can someone explain, or at least link to a simple explanation of the significance

of a guy getting a “major league deal” as his rookie contract? Make it so a dumbass like me can understand.

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Aug 13, 2008 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ok

You’re talking about a draftee getting a major league contract as opposed to merely a signing bonus, right? Most draftees just get a bonus for signing, then they go to the minors and get basically the same salary as the other players at their level (which is peanuts). If a draftee gets a major league contract, they get a guaranteed salary over a period of time. This is often about the same amount of money they could get as a signing bonus, so the difference isn’t really in the money; it is in the personnel rules. If you have a MLB contract, you’re immediately on the 40-man roster. Other draftees (even top ones like Moustakas, who did not get a MLB contract) are not on the 40-man roster until they need to be or have to be. Being on the 40-man roster means that when the organization wants to send that player to the minors (which of course they are going to do from the start), they have to use up an option. And of course, a player only gets 3 option years. In short, the MLB contract means that it makes it more likely that the player will get to the majors sooner (or get cut loose so he can get to the majors with some other team).

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Aug 13, 2008 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks

that’s what I wanted to know. The salary thing is the big difference, or what I really didn’t understand.

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Aug 13, 2008 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes

For example, a college draftee who signs a regular contract can be left off the 40-man roster for four years and then sent to the minors for another three years using options - that is seven years in the minors. If the same college draftee signs a major league deal, he is immediately on the 40-man roster and can only be optioned to the minors for three or four (see below) years - that is three or four years in the minors.

Draftees who get major league contracts usually will get an extra, fourth option if they spend almost all of their first three years in the minors—a player is eligible for a fourth option season if he has been optioned in three seasons and has not yet amassed five full seasons of professional baseball experience.

by Gopherballs on Aug 13, 2008 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

RE-SIGN DUCKY NOW!

by royalsreview on Aug 12, 2008 2:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Here is a list I don't know how accurate it is

Baseball options

Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin

by kcscoliny on Aug 12, 2008 3:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Ugh

I non-tender Gathright and Gobble. It’s small dollars, but I think we will get the same production out of Maier and Musser. Barring that Costa/Lubanski and some Ho-Ram type. I choose Maier over Gathright even though I would rate Gathright ever so slightly above Maier on defense, but I give a huge nod to Maier offensively. While he hasn’t shown it in the majors, he does possess the ability to get an extra base hit.

I can’t believe I’m saying this, but I’d think about tendering J. Smith IF he has an option left. He’s not a terrible guy to stash in Omaha in case you need an emergency back-up infielder. He’ll also be cheap.

I think we have to tender Teahen although I’m sick of watching the kid play everyday. If we sign a corner OF, I trade him for the best possible offer in spring training.

I also tender Peralta. Effective enough and can be a long reliever.

Here’s my question..who do we need to add to the 40 man roster in order to protect them for the Rule 5? How many spaces to we need to clear and how many do we expect to fill with FA? From what I’m seeing we should have plenty of roster space to work with.

Guys I add to the 40 man (either this year or over the off-season):

Kila – Unless he falls of a cliff I see a September call up in his future.
Dan Cortes-this might be a little early, but I have a feeling we will be seeing him sometime next year.
Lubanski – I think we’ll have room..might as well
Bryan Pena – Depends on what we do with Olivio

by Stook on Aug 12, 2008 4:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

On the 40 but not on the 25 or the DL:

Gobble, Fulchino, Tupman, Lumsden, Musser, Pimentel, Rosa, Lisson, Sanchez, Shealy, Costa.

Draw your own conclusions.

Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.

by jonfmorse on Aug 12, 2008 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cortes

There’s no reason to use a 40-man roster spot on him or any player until the numbers game forces you to (to protect him from the Rule 5 draft or to keep him from becoming a minor league FA). And I don’t think Cortes will be eligible for either of them.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Aug 12, 2008 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Guys that need to be protected, or will become eligible for the Rule 5

I believe:

RHP Blake Johnson
RHP Chris Nicoll
RHP Devon Lowery
LHP Dusty Hughes
RHP Jarod Plummer

1B Kila Kaaihue
IF Josh Johnson
OF Chris Lubanski
CF Jose Duarte???? Not sure.
RF Brian McFall

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Aug 12, 2008 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wasn't...

Lubanski Rule 5 eligible last year? Obviously he’s got another year under his belt, but I don’t think he’d have any takers

by GoBabies!! on Aug 12, 2008 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Play the Elimination Game Current 40 Man

Put a strikethrough who you think should/could be eliminated.
Pitchers
Zack Greinke
Gil Meche
Luke Hochever
Kyle Davies
Brian Bannister
~~John Bale~~
Ryan Braun
Jeff Fulchino
Jimmy Gobble
Luke Hudson
~~Tyler Lumsden~~
Ron Mahay
Neil Musser
Josh Newman
Leo Nunez
Joel Peralta
Julio Cesar Pimentel
Ramon Ramirez
Carlos Rosa
Joakim Soria
Robinson Tejeda
Catchers
John Buck
~~Miguel Olivo~~
Matt Tupman
Infield
Mike Aviles
Billy Butler
Alberto Callaspo
~~Esteban German~~
~~Mark Grudzielanek~~
Ross Gload
Alex Gordon
Mario Lisson
~~Tony Pena~~
Angel Sanchez
~~Ryan Shealy~~
Jason Smith
Outfield
Shane Costa
~~Mark Teahen~~
Mitch Maier
Jose Guillen
Joey Gathright
David DeJesus

Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin

by kcscoliny on Aug 12, 2008 4:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Why dump Shealy?

There’s no shortage of spots on the 40-man roster. I’d definitely dump genuinely crappy and easily replaceable guys like Fulchino, Tupman, Jason Smith and Lumsden before Shealy.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Aug 12, 2008 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

gotta carry 3 catchers on the 40 man and I'm assuming Pena takes Olivo's spot

I think Shealy will play his way off the 40 man come September. I would rather DFA Gload just don’t see that coming down the pipe. Maybe Donachie takes Tupmans spot this year. Forgot to DFA Gobble

Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin

by kcscoliny on Aug 12, 2008 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

With guys coming off the 40-man, plus worse players than Shealy currently on it, there's no reason to dump him

Coming off the 40-man

Grudzielanek
Olivo (probably)

Worse than Shealy

Fulchino
Smith
Lumsden
Pena

No need to protect on the 40-man

Lisson

With all of that room on the 40-man, there’s no reason to dump Shealy. The fact that he isn’t as good as we would want him to be is insufficient reason to just let him go.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Aug 12, 2008 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He just doesn't have much to offer

considering all the other 1b options KC has. I am assuming they are going to pick up a FA that isn’t the most mobile OF’r Dunn/Burrell/Hinske that could possibly play 1b. To go with Stodolka/Kila/Butler/Gload sign Shealy to a minor league deal if they wanna keep him around.

Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin

by kcscoliny on Aug 12, 2008 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

All the other 1B options KC has?

Gload and Kila are lefties. We need a righty who is major league ready. Stodolka is worse than Shealy and by more than a little. Have you seen his AAA stats? Remember, we’re talking about leaving him on the 40-man roster when there are other players clearly much more expendable and of lower value than Shealy. So tell me what the downside is to leaving Shealy on the 40-man roster.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Aug 12, 2008 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Butler is your RH option

I hope management/FO is smart enough to realize he should get the majority of starts at 1b. There isn’t a huge downside to having him on the 40 man but what is the upside as well? KC needs to carry a RH 30 year old to face the 50 LH starters they go against when they already have Butler? Shealy is better than Stodolka but he probably isn’t better than Butler, Gload, Kila. FA to be.

Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin

by kcscoliny on Aug 12, 2008 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

RH 1b aren't really that important of a asset to have.

Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin

by kcscoliny on Aug 12, 2008 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

We're talking about the 40-man roster, not the 25-man roster

The organization can use a righty 1B/DH who is MLB ready to go along with Butler. It provides an option in case Moore doesn’t acquire a good 1B upgrade, or if Butler gets injured, or if Gload is DFA’d or traded. That’s the upside to keeping him. He’s a viable option or contingency plan. That’s what most of the last 15 guys on the 40-man roster are for. Getting rid of him serves no good purpose. If there were no room for him on the 40-man roster, then fine. But there is more than enough room.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Aug 12, 2008 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He is a easily replaced commodity

IF Butler would get hurt I think there are any number of RH 1b out on the market that could be picked up in a pinch. Shealy’s defense isn’t particularly good and with Brayan Pena’s versatility on defense and his switch hit ability he at worse could play 1b and call up a catcher. Shealy just doesn’t provide much in terms of relief.

Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin

by kcscoliny on Aug 12, 2008 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

There are worse, more easily replaceable players on the 40-man than Shealy

The fact that he isn’t very good or that he is replaceable is not sufficient reason to just dump him. You don’t release every player who isn’t as good as you’d like for them to be. There are so many open spots on the 40-man roster that there is no reason to get rid of him. None at all. I asked what the downside was to keeping him on the 40-man roster and the only response I got was that there wasn’t a huge downside. Is there any downside? If so, what is it? And is there any upside to getting him off the 40-man? If so, what is it? There is more than enough room on the 40-man for every player we need to protect, plus multiple FA’s.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Aug 12, 2008 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Holes on the 40 man

If you replace the pitchers with other pitchers there really isn’t that many holes
German/Grudz should be replaced with 3b/2b options (Shealy can’t fill that hole)
Teahen replaced with FA
Olivo replaced with B. Pena
Tupan with other Catcher
Shealy with Kila

That leaves T. Pena Jr. that would be running thin at SS if you didn’t replace him with a SS. Lisson-I don’t understand why he is on the current 40 unless they want to save him from the Rule V. Not too many spots for Shealy.

Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin

by kcscoliny on Aug 12, 2008 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You don't need to make one-for-one position replacements on the 40-man roster

Shealy could easily take the place of Pena, Lisson or one of the crappy pitchers. Again, no downside to keeping him and there is some benefit from having him.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Aug 12, 2008 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

4 1b seems like a lot to carry on the 40 man roster especially when you have others that could possibly play that position

Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin

by kcscoliny on Aug 12, 2008 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's only too many if they are keeping someone else off of the 40-man who needs to be on there for some reason

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Aug 12, 2008 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

wow

how many times must you be told, it’s not the 25 man, it’s the 40

by I need more Esteban on Aug 12, 2008 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I guess as many times as it takes you guys to realize that Shealy is

a slug who doesn’t really deserve a spot. The guy is garbage and it is laughable how everyone in here holds out hope he will turn into something. He is Joe Vitiello reincarnated.

Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin

by kcscoliny on Aug 12, 2008 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Middle Infield/Catcher/Pitchers are all more deserving

than multiples of First baseman

Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin

by kcscoliny on Aug 12, 2008 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

More deserving

Fulchino
Smith
Lumsden
Pena

These guys are “more deserving” than Shealy? If by “more deserving,” you mean “worse, less useful and more easily replaceable,” then I agree.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Aug 12, 2008 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Fulchino/Lumsden

should be replaced by pitching options and Pena should be replaced by another SS as KC lacks true depth at that position. Smith well yes Smith is better than Shealy. He plays multiple position and has more power than Shealy

Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin

by kcscoliny on Aug 12, 2008 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You just don't get it

You keep the 40 best, most useful players who need to be there on the 40-man roster. You basically keep saying that you don’t like him and that he’s replaceable. Those aren’t reasons to dump him from the 40-man roster if there is more than enough room for him. He has some utility. You don’t just get rid of players with some usefulness when you don’t need to. If a player with limited utility costs too much, or is preventing someone else from getting playing time or being protected, then it can make sense to get rid of him. But none of those things are the case with Shealy. So, yet again, I ask why dump him?

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Aug 12, 2008 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He isn't useful.

Middle Infield/3b depth is much more important than carrying 4 1b. There is only one other AL team that carry’s two RH 1b on the 40 man roster and that is the Oakland A’s. Carrying more pitchers and a couple SS options would be of more value to the ‘09 team than carrying Shealy. He lacks multiple position options and is the 4th and probably soon to be the 5th best player at that position and that is before you tack in the possibilities of the FA playing there or Alex playing there in a pinch.

Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin

by kcscoliny on Aug 12, 2008 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm done

You are beyond reasoning with on this.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Aug 12, 2008 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You have no reasoning

you are just as stubborn on this issue. I choose not to carry 4-1b as pretty much every team in the league would agree. Yet I am beyond the reasonable thinker? Roster flexibility does come into play even on the 40 man roster.

Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin

by kcscoliny on Aug 12, 2008 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

uhh...shealy's 734 career OPS IS easily replaceable....

by ross freaking gload

not a real argument for gload, but we can go out and get someone for the minimum who sucks less than shealy

TPJ...you're dead to me

by billybeingbilly on Aug 12, 2008 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

For reasons unknown to everyone here they like Gload

and he actually serves as a defensive replacement at 1b which many teams carry. Should he be a more reasonable salary figure yes.

Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin

by kcscoliny on Aug 12, 2008 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

My List

Pitchers
Zack Greinke
Gil Meche
Luke Hochever
Kyle Davies
Brian Bannister
~~John Bale~~
Ryan Braun
~~Jeff Fulchino~~
~~Jimmy Gobble~~
~~Luke Hudson~~
Tyler Lumsden
Ron Mahay
Neil Musser
~~Josh Newman~~
Leo Nunez
Joel Peralta
Julio Cesar Pimentel
Ramon Ramirez
Carlos Rosa
Joakim Soria
Robinson Tejeda
Catchers
John Buck
~~Miguel Olivo~~
Matt Tupman
Infield
Mike Aviles
Billy Butler
Alberto Callaspo
Esteban German
~~Mark Grudzielanek~~
Ross Gload
Alex Gordon
~~Mario Lisson~~
~~Tony Pena~~
Angel Sanchez
Ryan Shealy
~~Jason Smith~~
Outfield
Shane Costa
Mark Teahen
Mitch Maier
Jose Guillen
~~Joey Gathright~~
David DeJesus

by Stook on Aug 12, 2008 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Replace with...

Blake Johnson
Chris Nicoll
Devon Lowery
Jarod Plummer
Kila Kaaihue
Chris Lubanski
Bryan Pena

Maybe add Jason Smith back if he has an option and we tender him. Again..ok stopgap to stuff away in Omaha.

That leaves 4 roster spots (or 3 if you count Jason Smith). FA outfielder, FA infielder and one remaining spot. Lubanski and Nicoll would be the next to be dropped off my list if we need more room.

by Stook on Aug 12, 2008 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I would probably choose Newman over Lumsden

and also add Chris Hayes as a specialty pitching option.

Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin

by kcscoliny on Aug 12, 2008 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Do you realize that players don't have to be on the 40-man roster in order act as effective potential reserves for the major league team?

I think I’ve discovered your problem. It seems like with the 40-man roster, you’re trying to put together the 25-man roster plus 15 primary reserves for the major league team. That isn’t what the 40-man roster is about. You don’t put Chris Hayes on the 40-man roster just because you might want him on the major league team at some point in the season. He doesn’t need to be on the 40-man roster for any reason. If injuries and/or poor performances necessitate that he be called up to the majors, then you put him on the 40-man roster at that time by moving someone else off of it. But you don’t cross that bridge until you get to it. There’s no reason to dump anyone else to make room for Chris Hayes in the offseason. It’s the same for Shealy. You don’t just dump him because he’s replaceable. You keep him until you need to replace him.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Aug 12, 2008 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Taking Chris Hayes over a guy like Fulchino/Lumsden/Bale/Gobble

isn’t any different than using someone like Blake Johnson who has no business on the 40 man cause he hasn’t even proved he can pitch to AA hitters well. You wanna bite someone else off bite Stook. You are constantly talking about my facination with AAA players well you have a facination with unrealized potential. Shealy, Teahen and any other bums you have a facination with are just that shlumps, bums who serve no purpose to this team other than to give ownership cause to say “Just Wait they’re nice guys you can root for”. Shealy is a joke he’s slow mediocre and wouldn’t be on any other roster other than this one. He facinates you with his ballooned stats hitting in Colorado and the California league. The guy is totally average. Name me a reason this team should carry two RH below average fielding 1b. You can’t you won’t and that is why you haven’t yet. This team needs 4 firstbaseman like it needs the 3 second baseman and 1 shortstop that hits as well as my grandma. Give Shealy the minor league contract he deserves and “IF” Billy Butler gets hurt maybe you call him up and play him over Ross “I’ve outhit Ryan Shealy on every level of my career” Gload. Shealy is 39th in the heavy hitting PCL a player with his experience his knowledge on his 4th tour should absolutely be McPhersoning or Cruzing it. You dogged on all the over emotional fans for a month talking about Aviles 3rd tour of duty. He’s on his 4th and is smashing his way to .850 OPS he should be at worst in the .900-950 range. He is a Joe Vitiello big body. I will personally bet you $100 that Stodolka strokes past Shealy next year.

Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin

by kcscoliny on Aug 13, 2008 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

There are only 4 circumstances when a team adds a minor leaguer to the 40-man roster

1. The minor leaguer is called up to the majors.

2. The minor leaguer is eligible for the Rule 5 draft, and the team (a) wants to protect him and (b) thinks another team might actually take him. To be eligible for the Rule 5 draft, the minor leaguer needs at least 4 years of service time in full season ball (5 years if he signed at age 19 or younger).

3. The minor leaguer has accrued the 6 years of service time to become a minor league free agent, but the team wants to keep him.

4. The minor leaguer is a top draft pick or international free agent who signed a major league contract.

Chris Hayes does not fit any of the categories, as he is in only his third professional year, so a team would never add him (or anyone else who does not fit one of the categories) to the 40-man roster now.

by Gopherballs on Aug 13, 2008 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If these are the rules then why are Lumsden, Lisson and Pimentel on the roster

Lisson might be a save from the Rule 5 draft but Lumsden and Pimentel wouldn’t qualify until this season in which you wouldn’t need to put them on the 40 until after the season is completed.

Hayes regardless serves as quite possibly a better option than a few of the other pitchers.

I understand what you guys are trying to say it just doesn’t hold water to me. KC carries 12 infielders on the 40 man roster only two other teams in the AL carry double digits. The Angels who have REAL SOLID PROSPECTS in Brandon Wood, Sean Rodriguez and Matt Brown and that probably explains their 10 man infield roster and the the Twins who carry 11 and that is due to injuries of Alexai Casilla and Matt Tolbert who are on the 15 day DL. I understand KC has Callaspo and Grudz on the DL but they have carried a 12 man ever since the call up of Aviles. It seems to me they continue to carry useless players that serve little purpose.

Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin

by kcscoliny on Aug 13, 2008 2:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

So you want to take up 40-man roster spots with guys who don't need to be on the 40-man roster

Fine. That makes no sense, but fine. Gopherballs explained it to you as well, but you’re just not interested. There’s no reason to put Hayes on the 40-man or to take Shealy off of it yet, but you have your own unique 40-man roster theory.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Aug 13, 2008 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I guess I don't get it

I think KC can find quality fill ins on the open market to take the place of players like Shealy. I think Hayes if given a shot might be a nice match to the 25 man is what I am saying about him. I’ve scanned the other teams in the league and no one is carrying 4 First baseman and on top of that no one carries 2 RH ones. I guess you should ask yourself why that is? Maybe because like I said before they are a totally replaceable commodity that could be found in the span of a week if really needed. But I’m the one who doesn’t get it.

Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin

by kcscoliny on Aug 13, 2008 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

My last word on this nonsense

Yeah, Chris Hayes is fine, but there is no reason to put him on the 40-man roster yet. None. Shealy is a decent player. If the choices are between releasing him and keeping him on the 40-man roster, then you keep him on the 40-man roster. If somehow a numbers crunch develops and you need to make room for someone else, then release him. But while there is still ample room on the 40-man roster, there’s no reason to get rid of him. You don’t get rid of him just because it doesn’t feel right to have 2 RH first basemen on the 40-man roster. Just because someone is replaceable doesn’t mean you necessarily get rid of that player. You get rid of him when you need to. You get rid of him when he becomes too expensive. You get rid of him when there isn’t a 40-man roster spot for him. You don’t just get rid of him for the sake of doing it.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Aug 13, 2008 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I thought that would be pretty obvious to anyone

of course you don’t just get rid of him so you have a hole on the roster. I guess I assumed everyone would know that and I didn’t need to explain it. Shealy should be replaced by any number of FA’s on the open market. Is he a huge weight drowning the system, NO does he serve little purpose and therefore adds little value, YES. You don’t just roster dump I understand that but there are plenty of useful players every year that get released and KC could add to their roster.

Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin

by kcscoliny on Aug 13, 2008 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

So you keep him until a replacement is acquired, right?

That’s what I’ve been saying all along. That’s why I’ve been talking about not just getting rid of him, and yet you’ve been arguing with me about that very point. The Royals have to set a 40-man roster fairly early in the offseason. That should include Shealy. If/when they find a replacement for him who needs a 40-man roster spot, they can get rid of him. There’s no reason to dump him off of the 40-man roster while there is still ample room for him.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Aug 13, 2008 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I assumed you knew I wouldn't just dump people

without replacements.

Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin

by kcscoliny on Aug 13, 2008 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Lisson would have been a minor league free agent

and Lumsden and Pimentel would have been eligible in the Rule 5 draft.

by Gopherballs on Aug 13, 2008 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I guess I don't understand the Rule 5

both Lum and Pim I thought this was their 4th minor league season why would they be eligible last year when they added him?

Every fight is a food fight when you’re a cannibal.
-- Demetri Martin

by kcscoliny on Aug 13, 2008 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Lumsden's year on the DL counts

Pimentel played in the Sally League in 2004.

by Gopherballs on Aug 13, 2008 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Just quibbling

But I really don’t see why Brayan Pena needs to be added to the 40 man roster until he makes the Opening Day club in 2009. If he’s taken in the Rule 5, oh well, its just a backup catcher.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Aug 12, 2008 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs