Love me non-tender
We’ve had discussions about whether some arbitration eligible players should be tendered a contract offer or non-tendered. So I thought I’d put together a mega-thread of the players the Royals have to make tender/non-tender decisions on. As a reminder, for arbitration eligible players, the team must offer the player a contract by the non-tender deadline (mid-December), otherwise he becomes a free agent. That offer must be at least 80% of the player’s prior year salary. Arbitration awards are made by evaluating the player’s last two years and comparing him to players with similar performance and service time.
2007 stats 122 ip, 7-7, 1 save, 3.69 ERA
2008 stats 182.1 ip, 10-10, 3.70 ERA
2008 salary $1.4M
2009 arb. est. $4M
My take: Greinke’s relatively low innings pitched in 2007 and lack of wins and saves will keep his arbitration number down (arbitrators love counting stats and aren’t really into advanced metrics). But even at twice that amount, tendering him would be a no-brainer.
2007 stats 544 ab, 7 hr, 60 rbi, .285/.353/.410
2008 stats 505 ab, 12 hr, 48 rbi, .246/.309/.382
2008 salary $2.338M
2009 arb. est. $3-3.5M
My take: This has already been debated ad nauseam, but I think he’d make a good 4-corner utility man. He’s overexposed as a starter corner OFer, but he’d be a good bench guy who gets 300-350 AB’s per season. At roughly $3M, he’s affordable and a good value for the money. The next year’s non-tender call will be tougher and will probably call for a punt.
2007 stats 347 ab, 18 hr, 48 rbi, .222/.308/.429
2008 stats 336 ab, 8 hr, 43 rbi, .220/.298/.360
2008 salary $2.2M
2009 arb. est. $3-3.5M
My take: Buck has been a roughly average catcher as a Royal and still has some upside. $3M is still pretty cheap and affordable given the perpetual shortage of good catchers in professional baseball. As with Teahen, give him one more year and re-evaluate before the next non-tender deadline.
2007 stats 53.2 ip, 4-1, 1 save, 3.02 ERA
2008 stats 27.1 ip, 0-2, 1 save, 10.21 ERA
2008 salary $1.313M
2009 arb. est. $1.75-2.25M
My take: Gooble is a good LOOGY. Hillman refuses to use him as a LOOGY. Hillman will be the Royals manager in 2009. Therefore, Gobble shouldn’t return. Save the $2M and don’t bring in any LOOGY’s or ROOGY’s while Hillman is manager.
2007 stats 165 ip, 12-9, 3.87 ERA
2008 stats 165.2 ip, 7-15, 5.81 ERA
2008 salary $421K
2009 arb. est. $1.75M
My take: He had a good year, then he had a bad year. It’s worth $1.75M to see if Bannister can make adjustments in 2009 and be an effective starting pitcher.
2007 stats 40 ip, 1-1, 4.05 ERA
2008 stats 20.2 ip, 0-3, 5.66 ERA
2008 salary $2.2M
2009 arb. est. $1.76M
My take: The $1.76M figure is 80% of his 2008 salary, by rule the least the Royals could offer Bale. He certainly hasn’t earned it. Bale has good stuff and decent control for a reliever and his peripherals have been much better this year than his ERA, but I still wouldn’t offer him $1.76M. I’d non-tender him and consider attempting to sign him for considerably less (as long as his contract has an team out-clause if he gets any self-induced injuries).
2007 stats 228 ab, 0 hr, 19 rbi, 9 sb, 8 cs, .307/.371/.342
2008 stats 272 ab, 0 hr, 19 rbi, 21 sb, 4 cs, .246/.301/.265
2008 salary $427K
2009 arb. est. $750k-$1M
My take: Any hope that Joey’s 2007 season raised that maybe he’d figured out how to hit was dashed once and for all this season. He can’t hit for contact, he draw a walk and he has no power. He is, however, a good pinch runner and a good defensive replacement for all three OF positions. Mitch Maier is at least as good of a defensive replacement, an ok pinch runner and has more offensive upside than Gathright. What I would do is sign Gathright for about $850K and then trade him. More than a few GM’s would be interested in a very fast, OFer who can play CF, pinch run and steal bases. The Royals could definitely get a C prospect for Gathright, which would make more sense than non-tendering him.
2007 stats 136 ip, 7-15, 6.09 ERA
2008 stats 92 ip, 6-7, 4.70 ERA
2008 salary $325K (prorated league minimum)
2009 arb. est. $750K
My take: So far this season, Davies has pitched at a level which would be acceptable for a 4th starter (4.70 ERA, 4.62 FIP). Going forward, I see him as either a decent 5th starter, an effective long reliever/spot starter or perhaps a genuinely good middle reliever. Regardless, there’s every reason to believe he’d be an asset to major league pitching staff. At $750K, this isn’t a tough call.
2007 stats 509 ab, 2 hr, 47 rbi, .267/.284/.356
2008 stats 206 ab, 1 hr, 11 rbi, .165/.184/.209
2008 salary $405K
2009 est. $405K
My take: Pena is not arbitration eligible. The Royals could keep him for league minimum. They could even DFA him and outright him to the minors where he could be stashed in the hopes that he could iron out his defensive wrinkles. Quite frankly, as long as he gets taken off the 40-man roster, I don’t much care if he’s DFA’d or released. He at least has two tools, which can’t be said for every AAA player (Jason Smith, I’m looking at you). The only risk in keeping Pena in the organization at all is that if he decreases his defensive mistakes, he really is a great fielder. And if Moore and Hillman see his spectacular defense in Omaha at some point, they might be tempted to actually call him up. So, better safe than sorry. DFA, then release.
2007 stats 46.2 ip, 3-5, 1 save, 4.63 ERA
2008 stats 20 ip, 2-1, 5.85 ERA
2008 salary $600K
2009 arb. est. $850K
My take: Ducky will be 33 years old next year. Anything over $600K for a 9th starter in his 30’s to stash in AAA in case of emergency is too much. See ya, Ducky, it’s been fun. I don’t even want to re-sign him for a cheap minor league deal. If Moore and his people can find cheaper reclamation projects like H. Ramirez and Tejeda, then they don’t need older reclamation projects with less talent.
2007 stats 141 ab, 6 hr, 18 rbi, .199/.235/.376
2008 stats 22 ab, 0 hr, 1 rbi, .182/.182/.378
2008 salary $540K
2009 arb. est. $550K
My take: How much is a zero-tool player with horrible stats worth? If you answered “less than major league minimum,” you are correct. There was little reason to offer Little Poppy arbitration last year. There is none to do so this year. He’s not worth his arbitration value or even a minor league deal. He’ll be 31 and he’s below replacement level both with the bat and the glove. A suitable replacement for his limited role can either be found in someone like Angel Sanchez (at least he can field) or off the baseball scrap heap, and for pennies.
2007 stats 2 ip, 0-1, 18.00 ERA
2008 stats none
2008 salary $475K
2009 arb. est. $450k
My take: It is time for Hudson’s injury-filled tenure with the Royals to come to an end. He’ll be 31 and he can’t stay healthy. Non-tendering him is the obvious choice. If they think he’s mostly healthy and still like his stuff, they can sign him to a minor league deal. Meh.
2007 stats 24.2 ip, 0-1, 4.38 ERA
2008 stats none
2008 salary $600K
2009 arb. est. $600K
My take: Remember when someone came onto the site in January and made this post about the Tsao signing and how he was going to be one of the Royals best relievers this year (and that Mahay is a replacement level chump)? It’s kind of like someone breaking into your home naked, shouting that Lyndon LaRouche is America’s savior. Anyway, very predictably, that didn’t happen. What did happen is that Tsao lived up to his reputation as a guy who can’t stay healthy and pitched all of 11.1 minor league innings (5.56 ERA). So of course he won’t be offered arbitration. If in the offseason it looks like there is a 25% chance or greater that he could be healthy this season, then they can sign him to a significantly discounted minor league deal.
I have left Miguel Olivo out of this discussion. It appears that he is one day short of the service time necessary to become a free agent after this season. But, as many have speculated, it is likely that the contract he signed with the Royals – which contains a mutual option for 2009 – includes a clause requiring the Royals to waive their rights to him if the option is not picked up by both sides.
Since I can’t post multiple polls in one post, if you’re interested in voting, just cut and paste this list into your comment and just put a “Yes” beside the player’s name if you’d offer him arbitration or “No” if you’d non-tender him.
Zach Greinke
Mark Teahen
John Buck
Jimmy Gobble
Brian Bannister
John Bale
Joey Gathright
Kyle Davies
Tony Pena, Jr.
Brandon Duckworth
Jason Smith
Luke Hudson
Chin-hui Tsao
3 recs |
87 comments
Comments
Just in case my votes weren't clear enough
Zach Greinke Yes
Mark Teahen Yes
John Buck Yes
Jimmy Gobble No
Brian Bannister Yes
John Bale No
Joey Gathright Yes
Kyle Davies Yes
Tony Pena, Jr. No
Brandon Duckworth No
Jason Smith No
Luke Hudson No
Chin-hui Tsao No
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Sep 12, 2008 8:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Tsao was released a looooooooooooooooooong time ago.
FYI
Rowdy Hardy Fan Club member.
by doublestix on Sep 12, 2008 8:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Well that makes the decision a little easier
Not that it was hard.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Sep 12, 2008 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't read the thread
But the Tsao signing was a nifty no-risk, high-reward move that unfortunately did not work it. I hope it does not discourage Moore from trying those type of signings again.
by Gopherballs on Sep 12, 2008 8:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I had no problem with that kind of minor league deal
Some low-risk, low cost signings that could have a big return make sense. It’s a lot like investing over-slot money in the draft.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Sep 12, 2008 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Zach Greinke – Yes
Mark Teahen – No
John Buck – Depends on what happens before deadline
Jimmy Gobble – No
Brian Bannister – Yes
John Bale – No
Joey Gathright – Hell no
Kyle Davies – Yes
Tony Pena, Jr. – Hell to the no
Brandon Duckworth – NOPE
Jason Smith – NO
Luke Hudson – LOL
Chin-hui Tsao No
Rowdy Hardy Fan Club member.
by doublestix on Sep 12, 2008 8:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Not much to love
He is what he is. And what he is hasn’t improve and is getting a bit old.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Sep 12, 2008 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right back atcha, chief

Royals August 2008 MVP
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Sep 12, 2008 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Turns out he is getting a bit old and he really hasn’t improved.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Sep 12, 2008 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
my votes
Zach Greinke YES
Mark Teahen NO (unless Guillen gets flipped between now and then, in which case I would tender Teahen because he’d be a better option than anyone we’ve got hanging out in AAA)
John Buck YES
Jimmy Gobble NO
Brian Bannister YES
John Bale NO (Fucking dumbass)
Joey Gathright NO
Kyle Davies YES
Tony Pena, Jr. NO
Brandon Duckworth NO
Jason Smith NO
Luke Hudson NO
by DarthYoshi on Sep 12, 2008 8:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The Bale injury....
NY, I’m not trying to sidetrack your post, but since everyone is baggin on Bale, I thought I’d chime in…
Is there anything to the ‘rumors’ that apparently went around after he broke his had that is wasn’t a wall he was punching, it was Jose Guillen’s face? Soren Petro made a real quick allusion to that end a couple weeks ago, and I’ve kept forgetting to bring it up here to find out of there is anything to it…
by GoBabies!! on Sep 12, 2008 8:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I haven't heard this rumor
Unless there is some information which substantiates it, I don’t think there is much reason to believe it.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Sep 12, 2008 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No No No
You are reading way to far into it. I never said that.
by SorenPetro on Sep 25, 2008 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i too was listening when he alluded to that too....
and was going to come on here and ask about that and had forgotten
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Sep 14, 2008 4:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That would be
awesome
Alex Gordon in '08
by RoyalJHWKR on Sep 16, 2008 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bring Bale Back
Zach Greinke – Yes
Mark Teahen – Yes, but only if there is still room in the budget on Dec. 12
John Buck — Yes
Jimmy Gobble — No
Brian Bannister — Yes
John Bale — Yes. His one bad start when he was injured skews his stats. He makes a fine second lefty who can actually pitch to right-handed hitters. And he likely takes a pay cut.
Joey Gathright — Yes
Kyle Davies — Yes, but he is probably due a salary closer to $1.5m and he really should move to the bullpen. His batted ball data shows that he pitched worse than his FIP indicate.
Tony Pena, Jr. — No
Brandon Duckworth — No
Jason Smith — No
Luke Hudson — No
by Gopherballs on Sep 12, 2008 8:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Davies arbitration award
In the last two years, Davies has 148 innings with an ERA over 5.50. Is that really going to get him $1.5M in his first year of arbitration. Greinke got less than that in his first year. Do you have any first similar first arbitration year comps?
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Sep 12, 2008 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dan Cabrera, Matt Belisle, Claudio Vargas
The two years considered for Greinke were one in which he had a 5.80 ERA as a starter and another in which he was primarily a reliever (who get considerably less than starters).
by Gopherballs on Sep 13, 2008 2:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the comps
Yeah, I think my estimate was clearly too low. The number of games and innings will keep his number down somewhat, but I do think he’ll come in at $1.25-1.5. That makes me think that Bannister might be more like $2M.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Sep 13, 2008 2:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The late additions
No on Peralta, but Moore should try to re-sign him to a minor league deal.
No on German, assuming Moore cannot trade him before the deadline. Teahen is the better fit as the designated multi-position bench bat, and the Royals cannot afford both of them.
And to clarify my answer on Gathright, I would try to sign him before the deadline, but would not want to risk actually going to arbitration with him (where the steals might give him an undeserved raise in pay).
by Gopherballs on Sep 15, 2008 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Zach Greinke YES!!!
Mark Teahen yes
John Buck yes
Jimmy Gobble no
Brian Bannister yes
John Bale yes
Joey Gathright yes, then trade him for a low end high risk high reward prospect
Kyle Davies yes
Tony Pena, Jr. hahahaaaaa milb contract and make him a pitcher.
Brandon Duckworth no, milb contract and put him in O
Jason Smith no
Luke Hudson no
Chin-hui Tsao gone
Don't forget to send your broken maples to the US Forest Service.
by 306008 on Sep 12, 2008 9:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I mistakenly left Joel Peralta out
He’ll likely make at least $750K. He was pretty good until this season. I find it hard to believe that he suddenly fell off a cliff at his age and won’t be good again. I think I’d be willing to keep him for $1M.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Sep 12, 2008 9:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree
Several flyballs turned into HR’s. Not the end of the world. Worth keeping around at that price.
Alex Gordon in '08
by RoyalJHWKR on Sep 16, 2008 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Zach Greinke YES!!!
Mark Teahen No
John Buck No
Jimmy Gobble Yes (cheaper than Bale who sucks equally)
Brian Bannister yes
John Bale No
Joey Gathright No
Kyle Davies Yes
Tony Pena, Jr. NO
Brandon Duckworth NO
Jason Smith NO
Luke Hudson NO
Joel Peralta Yes
Oberation Roster Overload
It takes 46 muscles to frown but only 4 to flip 'em the bird.
by kcscoliny on Sep 12, 2008 9:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
my take
Zach Greinke yes
Mark Teahen yes
John Buck yes
Jimmy Gobble no
Brian Bannister yes
John Bale yes
Joey Gathright no
Kyle Davies yes
Tony Pena, Jr. um, no
Brandon Duckworth no
Jason Smith no
Luke Hudson no
Chin-hui Tsao not even if he was still with the club
Peralta no
The concept of progress acts as a protective mechanism to shield us from the terrors of the future. - Collected sayings of Muad'Dib
by buddyball on Sep 12, 2008 10:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
(Gathright)
He can’t hit for contact, he draw a walk and he has no power.
Since Teahen’s only remaining skill appears to be drawing walks, and since they have identical batting averages, and Teahen’s OBP is only .008 higher than Gathright’s, I presume the missing word in the above sentence is “can.” ;)
Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.
by jonfmorse on Sep 12, 2008 11:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You lost me
I know this was said with a wink, but are you criticizing Gathright, Teahen or saying that they are roughly the same sucky player?
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Sep 12, 2008 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm saying you left out a word.
And if you intended to say “can’t draw a walk,” well, that’s not really accurate.
Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.
by jonfmorse on Sep 13, 2008 5:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't Gathright's walk rate pretty poor?
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Sep 13, 2008 6:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If his is, then Teahen's is.
.246/.309 vs. .246/.301 — as far as getting on base, that’s almost exactly the same player.
Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.
by jonfmorse on Sep 13, 2008 9:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just got off the phone with Dayton
Zach Greinke — I guess give him one more chance
Mark Teahen — Yes. For one thing, this place would die if we didn’t have Mark Teahen to argue about. Besides, he just turned 27 last week. Check out this chart:

That’s right, Jose Guillen sucked even worse than Mark Teahen until he turned 27 in 2003. I’m not sure what he changed in his training regimen around that time. Probably nothing. Maybe he can help te Dr. Evil with some “trade secrets.”
John Buck — John Buck Rules. Yes.
Jimmy Gobble — I guess not. F%$# you, too, Trey.
Brian Bannister — Um, he has the same xFIP as Dice-K, as of this writing. I’m pretty sure he’s worth the $56 million contract (or whatever) + posting fee. So, YE-ES.
John Bale — No. Unless he punched Hoagy in the face. Then give him a three-year extension.
Joey Gathright — Not when MITCH is around. Unless he can be flipped for a reliever. I’m not sure the Royals could get someone as good as J. P. Howell for him, but who would be stupid enough to make that trade, anyway?
Kyle Davies — Yup. Good stuff/bad control guy means that if he comes back to earth and out of the rotation, he might still profile as a good reliever.
Tony Pena, Jr. — See Gathright.
Brandon Duckworth — No. Although the Royals August 2008 MVP would seem to have trade value.
Jason Smith — (insert joke here)
Luke Hudson — No.
Chin-hui Tsao — He gone. Great name, though.
Joel Peralta — Yes.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Sep 12, 2008 11:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Big difference between Teahen and Guillen
Is just pure power. Teahens long swing will never generate the power Guillen’s does.
It takes 46 muscles to frown but only 4 to flip 'em the bird.
by kcscoliny on Sep 13, 2008 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't believe I left out Esteban German too
He made $1M this year. He’d make closer to $2M in his second year of arbitration. I’d offer him arbitration and possibly look to trade him.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Sep 13, 2008 3:11 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
I assume the arbitrator won’t take the bat flip into account, otherwise he’ll balloon to $3 million.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Sep 13, 2008 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know this is irrational
but I really can’t imagine a Royals team without Bat Flip.
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
by NHZ on Sep 15, 2008 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How dare you have a non-rational attachment to something involved in a sporting event!
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Sep 15, 2008 9:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Surriously
but c’mon…no Estey?
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
by NHZ on Sep 17, 2008 2:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
It definitely wastes a millisecond out of the box but I love how he takes just a fleeting moment to admire his gapers and flip his bat before he scurries off.
Alex Gordon in '08
by RoyalJHWKR on Sep 16, 2008 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My Take
Zach Greinke – Yes, Duh
Mark Teahen – Yes (if his market value really is > 3M to NL teams, and/or still has a shot to make team as oufield or 3b starter depending on what happens)
John Buck – No (might let Olivo stay and I am sorry, but I have given up all hope for him, would rather have Pena, and don’t think he will be worth anything in a trade, because I have given up all hope for him) (yes, I am very right brained)
Jimmy Gobble – No (play hardball sign him to a long term incentive deal or let him go)
Peralta – No (play hardball sign him to a long term incentive deal or let him go)
German – Yes (trade value is there / may fit into short term plans)
Brian Bannister – Yes (But try to get him to sign a long term incentive deal first, the other pitchers being used as “examples” I know, I’m evil)
John Bale – Yes (left handed reliever / perhaps still a starting prospect, depending on how the Bannister thing goes)
Joey Gathright – Yes (trade value, and still royals best 4th outfielder option, sorry Mitch / Teahen fans,his ability to play cf and speed wins that spot.)
Kyle Davies – Yes (long reliever, and we need one)
Tony Pena, Jr. – Yes (so people who want him would have to pay him major leauge salary, DFA and send to A ball as a pitching/ss phenom and trade to naive NL team who wants the next feel good short stop and/or pitcher type thing)
Brandon Duckworth – Yes (Royals are 3-1 when he has started, use the velvet glove here and reward the sucess.)
Jason Smith – See Ya
Luke Hudson – NO (play hardball sign him to a long term incentive deal or let him go)
Go Royals!
by BabyBlues on Sep 13, 2008 6:23 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
why in the world
would we want all these scrubby types to sign long term deals?
by gordonrules on Sep 13, 2008 8:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can we DH for Gathright when Grienke pitches?
Don't forget to send your broken maples to the US Forest Service.
by 306008 on Sep 13, 2008 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because (for the 2423532545th time this season)
you can only DH for the pitcher.
Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.
by jonfmorse on Sep 13, 2008 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so gathright plays a very deep pitcher
and Grienke plays a very shallow centerfield?
by PopeSoria on Sep 13, 2008 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
are you sure?
Have you looked that up? It’s not like HS and college where you can DH for ANYONE?
Don't forget to send your broken maples to the US Forest Service.
by 306008 on Sep 13, 2008 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe the union can file a grievance for us?
Don't forget to send your broken maples to the US Forest Service.
by 306008 on Sep 13, 2008 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you should write a letter to the MLBPA
Because under the current rules, this can’t be done.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Sep 13, 2008 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes. I'm sure.
The MLB rules are clear enough. The wikipedia article on Designated Hitter goes into great detail on it, too.
Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.
by jonfmorse on Sep 14, 2008 7:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But Bud Selig might not read Wikipedia
and allow it to happen. ( I do know that only P’s can be DH’d for, I’m just all for never letting Gathright swing in a game again. I’m just looking for loopholes. )
I still think we can find away… Ah! I got one. Start ZG in CF and Gathright on the mound. Gathright throws ball one at the hitter, and we make a pitching change! Yes. It can be done!!! This way Zack hits and Gathright gets a DH!
Don't forget to send your broken maples to the US Forest Service.
by 306008 on Sep 14, 2008 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nope, then you forfeit the DH for the game
Keep trying, though!
Kansas City Royals: your 2006 and 2007 NL Central champions!
by mazoboom on Sep 14, 2008 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm really surprised there isn't any talk of making TPJ a pitcher
He has a great arm his throw tonight deep in the hole was nice even though he didn’t get the guy out. I think he could throw mid 90’s with a nice breaking ball. If I was him I would be very open to that cause it could prolong his career another 5 years.
It takes 46 muscles to frown but only 4 to flip 'em the bird.
by kcscoliny on Sep 13, 2008 9:55 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I was really unimpressed when I watched the inning he pitched
The strike zone was extremely forgiving and I thought the strike out of Rodriguez looked like a really bad hanging breaking ball. I watched it on YouTube after hearing the hype and I wasn’t very impressed, I think you could find plenty of guys who could pitch better than Pena, unless you really just like him and would do anything to keep him around somehow. I wonder if you put most position players with a strong arm on the mound if they could approximate what he did.
Of course if I’m wrong and the experts think he can pitch then what the hell, go for it.
by PopeSoria on Sep 13, 2008 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well if you were looking for a polished pitcher
then yes he didn’t look great but for a guy to throw 90-91 with no real windup and a 3/4 delivery it was pretty good. Plus his curve was at about 78 mph with decent break, it was up in the zone but again no form could be something nice to work with. I’m just saying he sucks as a position player due to his bad hitting so KC might be able to make it work another way ala Ron Mahay
It takes 46 muscles to frown but only 4 to flip 'em the bird.
by kcscoliny on Sep 13, 2008 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
About the post
This happens to me when the left side of by brain shuts down and my right side is unimpeded by logic and such and I am left with pure intuition. Sometimes I have good ideas in that state, but often its just silly. I watched way too much hurricane coverage with way too little sleep.
Go Royals!
by BabyBlues on Sep 13, 2008 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hey I agree
he was throwing like that with a weird arm angle, almost side-arm but not quite. He ovbiously has no use at SS so why not get him some coaching and see, it’s not like it really matters that much to have him in the minors trying to learn.
by I need more Esteban on Sep 14, 2008 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
we can't send him to the minors.
Don't Stop Believing!
by KC Chris on Sep 26, 2008 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps he’s suggesting that the Royals release him and sign him to a minor league contract.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Sep 26, 2008 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Zach Greinke Yes
Mark Teahen Yes
John Buck No
Jimmy Gobble Yes
Brian Bannister Yes
John Bale No
Joey Gathright No
Kyle Davies Yes
Tony Pena, Jr. No
Brandon Duckworth No
Jason Smith No
Luke Hudson No
Chin-hui Tsao No
We always did feel the same, We just saw it from a different point of view, Tangled up in blue.
-Bob Dylan
by Royal Kingdom on Sep 13, 2008 4:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
+1... This would get me to consider keeping a firearm at home.
It’s kind of like someone breaking into your home naked, shouting that Lyndon LaRouche is America’s savior.
Waiting for a 90+ win season
by RoyalsFanInMarinerTown on Sep 13, 2008 6:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
In the blogosphere, this happens much too often
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Sep 13, 2008 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This just seemed easier
Tender/keep Zack Greinke, Brian Bannister (this one’s not automatice to me), and Kyle Davies (for bullpen duty and a spot start like tonight’s) and only Teahen and Buck with an eye towards a later trade. Everyone one else ends their Royal days come October 1.
Sometimes you just gotta roll the potato.
by CentralChamps2009 on Sep 13, 2008 7:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I fully agree with NYRoyal's decision
Although I wouldn’t mind non-tendering Joey G. I don’t see him having much trade value.
I also very much want to bring Bale back, but not at that salary. I’d like to bring him back on an incentivized deal – he could be a useful longman, although it looks like he’ll have some stiff competition now with Tejada, and possibly Kipper.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Sep 15, 2008 1:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Greinke...
In my opinion, Greinke should be signed long term this off season, or traded. One of those options is the best going forward for this organization in my opinion.
If he dupicates his 2008 season in 2009 his price will skyrocket. His trade value will never be higher I don’t think because he is still under club control for 2 more years ‘09 & ’10 (I think that is correct, I apologize if it isn’t but I’m too busy to research it right now). Even if he goes 16-6 next year with a 3.00 ERA, I think his value will take a hit being that he’ll then become a year or year & a half rent-a-player.
Even if we sign him to a reasonable extension (w/o research, Lock him up through 2011 or 2012 at about a $7 million average?), and he comes out next season and regresses a little (shich I don’t see happening), he still has a low enough contract that his trade value will still be substantial…
by GoBabies!! on Sep 15, 2008 2:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That seems like a significant discount
$7 Mil? Gil Meche was older had less success and got 5/55. Even if that was above market it was also 2 years ago and Zacks market would be at least 11m per year as a 24yo with no injury history. I understand he would be giving a discount to the Royals for security but 7 mil IMO would be too little for him to take.
It takes 46 muscles to frown but only 4 to flip 'em the bird.
by kcscoliny on Sep 15, 2008 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But you have to take into account that the first two years if this proposed contract would be arbitration years
2009 and 2010 are his last two arbitration years, so in a long-term deal, he wouldn’t be getting anywhere near his FA market value in those years. Any long-term contract which includes arbitration years (or pre-arb years) includes appropriate discounts in those years. So $7M for the FA years is too low. But a $7M average is reasonable and reflects the market for this kind of contract. My proposed long-term deal is:
2009 $4.5M
2010 $6.5M
2011 $10M
2012 $11M
2013 $12M club option
2014 $14M club option
2015 $15M club option
The per year average for that contract through 2011 is $7M. Through 2012 it is $8M.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Sep 15, 2008 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That does seem realistic when you explain it like that
but if I was Zack I would probably just play out the contract he has currently.
It takes 46 muscles to frown but only 4 to flip 'em the bird.
by kcscoliny on Sep 15, 2008 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps
Going the FA route is a viable option which could payoff bigtime for him. But, as we’ve seen in the past few years, many young, talented, valuable players are willing to forego free agency and take the security of a long, guaranteed contract. Names like Reyes, Wright, Carmona, Braun, Longoria, Soria and many others come to mind.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Sep 15, 2008 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
IF he's willing to scrape by in the arduous years
of mere 4-6 million dollar salaries.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Sep 15, 2008 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, Greinke has significant incentive to sign an extension now
He would be looking at Kazmir money: 09:$6M, 10:$8M, 11:$12M, 12:$13.5M club option ($2.5M buyout).
by Gopherballs on Sep 15, 2008 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That seems like a better deal for him (8.67 thru '11)
but I would probably want that 4th year guaranteed too if I were him with two options at the end. He is so young still and with all his experience he has a little more leverage than the names listed above when they signed their deals. I know he has past baggage but if he put that behind him they would be alright.
It takes 46 muscles to frown but only 4 to flip 'em the bird.
by kcscoliny on Sep 15, 2008 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm probably being naive
but I don’t worry about the past mental stuff anyway. We don’t know the details, and I don’t need to know, but while it was something to overcome and to be treated, it doesn’t sound like anything worse than what every North American knows about from a friend or relative. He’s not bipolar or schizophrenic. He’s got the best medical care in the world. Frankly, I would bet there are players in the bigs right now who have equal or more severe conditions.
While epilepsy isn’t a psychiatric condition, I think that would be more of a problem that’s harder to control, and that didn’t stop Tony Lazzeri from being a great 2nd baseman and Hall-of-Famer (even if he’s a marginal HOFer). Is there a chance it could effect him down the road? Sure. But not big enough for it to mater too much on either side of the negotiations, from what little I’ve heard about it.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Sep 15, 2008 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not very concerned about his mental health
…but there is a risk there and that risk affects his market value. His “injury” history and somewhat spotty track record are negatives which go along with the tremendous positives. Even if he doesn’t know this, his agent surely does.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Sep 15, 2008 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
His agent will spin it as low mileage on his odometer
by Gopherballs on Sep 15, 2008 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
His agent can spin it however he wants
But his market value is his market value. And all of his pluses and minuses contribute to that value.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Sep 15, 2008 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Too bad it was so public
I would bet $100 right now that there are other players at least as good as Greinke who currently or in the past have had similar treatment for problem of equal or worse severity.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on Sep 15, 2008 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not just that he has had treatment for depression and SAD
His problem became so acute that he had to walk away from baseball for months during the baseball season. That is a level of dysfunctionality that very few players ever get to.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Sep 15, 2008 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think
His mental ‘issues’ are an issue with KC. My cause for concern, as far as his trade value goes, is that if KC all of a sudden is going to ‘listen’ to offers for him, will other GM’s view that as a red flag that something is arising again?
I’m on record as saying that I think ZG is going to become an ELITE pitcher, but I’d trade him. His one ‘mental’ issue that i DO have concern for, as it pertains to KC, is his desire to swing the stick. I’m also on record, as saying that I don’t think ZG has any intentions of staying in KC once he hits FA. I think he will bolt to the first NL team that shows interest.
If we have any interest in buying out a few years of FA, I think it must be done this off season.
Which is more valuable though? 3-5 more years of ZG, or what he’ll fetch in a trade? I’d like to think the incoming will be more valuable, but it HAS to be a homerun. GMDM can’t pull an Allard & key on a particular position(s). He has to take the best collection of talent, hopefully a mixture of low minor development prospects, and ML ready or close prospects…
by GoBabies!! on Sep 15, 2008 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think. His mental ‘issues’ are an issue with KC. My cause for concern, as far as his trade value goes, is that if KC all of a sudden is going to ‘listen’ to offers for him, will other GM’s view that as a red flag that something is arising again?
This is what I’m saying. His market value (both for a long-term deal and for a potential trade) are affected by his mental issues. Even if the Royals are 99.9% confident that it will never adversely affect his performance in the future, it still somewhat limits his value, which affects how much they should be willing to pay him in a long-term deal.
This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.
by NYRoyal on Sep 15, 2008 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reyes, Wright, Carmona, Braun, Longoria, Soria
God all these deals look awesome it’s too bad Moose and Hosmer are Boras clients. If they make it to KC and perform he’ll never let them sign a deal like these.
It takes 46 muscles to frown but only 4 to flip 'em the bird.
by kcscoliny on Sep 15, 2008 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
my thoughts
Zach Greinke-sign long term deal Kazmir range after offering arbitration
Mark Teahen-spot on analysis, arbitration
John Buck-too expensive for that production w/ no arm, non-tender
Jimmy Gobble-non-tender
Brian Bannister-arbitration, have to keep starting pitching and pray he reverts to 2007 form
John Bale-keep as long reliever, swing man, arbitration
Joey Gathright-deal to contender after offering arbitration
Kyle Davies-same as bannister, arbitration
Tony Pena, Jr.-non-tender and stash in AAA
Brandon Duckworth-non-tender, too old
Jason Smith-non-tender, attempt to sign and keep in AAA
Luke Hudson-non-tender, i keep forgetting he is getting a paycheck
Chin-hui Tsao-non-tender, minor league deal if possible
Never giving up on your team is what makes you a good fan.
by kcisbetterthanstlateverything on Sep 15, 2008 7:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Bannister's been nearly as good as last year
K rate up from 4.4 to 5.5 per nine innings
BB rate up slightly from 2.5 to 2.8 per nine innings
GB% down from 41% to 37%
Two thins have killed his ERA:
-He’s giving up more homeruns per flyball (up from 8% to 12% — since 11% is about average and this is a very flukey stat, he was a bit lucky in 2007 and the 2008 rate is probably more indicative of future performance.
-His BABIP is way up, from .260 to .305 (remember the whole buzz about him actually being aware of his really low BABIP in 2007?) .305 really isn’t that bad, especially considering the awfulness of the Royals’ fielders this year.
Bannister’s xFIP (expected ERA based on K/9, BB/9, and GB%):
2007: 5.14
2008: 4.92
He is who he was last year — a guy with 4th/5th starter skills.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Sep 16, 2008 11:00 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Concerns me with Banni
is his LD%(22.2), like Rany pointed out. He needs to realize if teams are gonna continue to hit him like this he needs to take a Paul Byrd approach. His risk/reward by going for strikeouts is resulting in more bb’s and more longballs. Paul Byrd has succeeded with similar stats as Brian’s this year by limiting walks and pitching to contact.
Byrd career line 21% LD 37.1% GB 47.9% FB 10.2% HR/FB .292 BABIP the big difference is the BB/9 2.11 as opposed to Brian’s 2.88
It takes 46 muscles to frown but only 4 to flip 'em the bird.
by kcscoliny on Sep 16, 2008 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice use of LD%
Adding a few more groundballs (Banny dropped from 41% GB to 37% GB%) would also help. But he already knows this.
by Gopherballs on Sep 16, 2008 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
not only does he know this
he predicted this whole thread, up to and including this post
This space intentionally left blank.
by marbotty on Sep 16, 2008 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Zach Greinke — Yes
Mark Teahen — Yes (either make a supersub or trade though)
John Buck — Yes
Jimmy Gobble — No (only because LOOGYs and ROOGYs will continue to be misused)
Brian Bannister — Yes
John Bale — No (but try to get on a cheaper deal, or minor league contract)
Joey Gathright — Ugh, he probably has some value to someone……I guess, Yes, then try to trade
Kyle Davies — Yes
Tony Pena, Jr. — No, and he really better not be on the 25 man roster on opening day
Brandon Duckworth — No, but go ahead and resign him to a minor league deal (again)
Jason Smith — LOL, No. Players like Jason Smith are available every offseason for free — as evidence, Jason Smith had been available for free every offseason of his career until he joined the Royals.
Luke Hudson — No
Chin-hui Tsao — Already gone
Peralta — Yes
German — Yes then trade
by Top Ramen on Sep 17, 2008 11:09 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
For those who say no on Teahen....
just curious — how much do you read/post on RoyalsCorner (the scout.com Royals board)?
That board seems to fall into mob mentality more than most…
by Top Ramen on Sep 17, 2008 11:13 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs















