Is Dayton Moore becoming Wayne Krivsky?
I’ve noticed something disturbing happening over the last year. I am afraid Dayton Moore is slowly becoming Wayne Krivsky.
As I am sure most of you know Wayne Krivsky was the GM of the Cincinnati Reds from February 2006 until he was fired in April 2008. Being a longtime Reds fan I was initially very excited by Krivsky. He worked as an assistant in the Twins organization and had over two decades of mostly positive experience scouting and developing young players. Krivsky opened his tenure with the Reds with a bang by clearly getting the better part of a trade with the Red Sox, Willy Mo Pena for Bronson Arroyo. Krivsky looked even more brilliant after two of his scrap heap acquisitions, David Ross and Brandon Phillips, both performed amazingly well once they arrived in Cincinnati. Then everything went bad.
Krivsky loves “scrappy” players. He looks for the “classy old veteran.” It soon became clear he had absolutely no idea that the best way for a lower revenue team to build a competitive roster was to help young talented players realize their potential before they hit their money years rather than paying over market rate for aging free agents. Krivsky, a guy who never actually played the game but who was so sure of his own brilliance that he refused to allow anyone around him other than “yes” men in suits, surrendered himself to childish romantic imagery. He attempted to build a roster of clichés rather than actual players. He ridiculously overpaid for the aging light-hitting but slick fielding Latin shortstop. His bullpen overflowed with “crafty old lefties.” He assured the fans the Reds would win by "doing the little things better," something they would learn by bathing in the clubhouse chatter flowing from luminaries like Royce Clayton and Juan Castro. He cut Ryan Franklin and Luke Hudson because he did not like their attitudes, and then paid millions to bring in Tony Womack, Rheal Cormier and Mike Stanton.
For two years Krivsky consistently made blatantly stupid personnel decisions and provided the press with gibberish quotes containing phrases like “good clubhouse guy,” “he knows how to win,” or, my favorite, “he knows how to play the game the right way.” After TRADING two prospects for a 41-year old Jeff Conine in December of 2006 Krivsky assured Reds fans that this was a great acquisition because “He is very talented, he can do a lot of things with the bat.” (Watch out ladies!) Conine would go on to earn $2M that year for a .729 OPS as a semi-mobile first baseman. Krivsky so loved scrappy ol’ vets that he left Brendan Harris and Cody Ross off the 40-man roster so he could carry Chad Moeller and Bubba Crosby as insurance bench players with major league contracts. After all, Moeller and Crosby had already “paid their dues” by hanging around the game for years - nevermind that it would be hard to find two better examples of replacement level players.
Lately I am seeing too many similarities between Krivsky and Moore to ignore. Moore opened his KC tenure with a flurry of generally helpful trades in June/July of 2006, dumping Gotay, MacDougal, Dessens, Graffanino, Affeldt, Bautista and Stairs for younger cheaper players who seemed to have a reserve of unrealized potential. He followed this burst of activity by bringing in what at the time was a shocking free agent catch, Gil Meche. His cup of good will overflowed on March 23, 2007 when he acquired TPJ and DFAed Angel Berroa. Unfortunately, after those initial 10 month, Moore seems to have embraced the same form of jackassery that rots Krivsky’s mind.
Increasingly we see evidence of Dayton Moore’s inexplicable attraction to old scrappy players who don’t mind getting their uniform dirty, hanging around for extra infield practice; guys who like to sit around the clubhouse creating that gameday chatter which is magically supposed to enable marginal players to elevate their game and prove “hard earned wisdom” and “110% effort” can overcome AAA talent and declining bodies. This nonsense might work as plot material for feel-good movies and young adult novels but anyone old enough to manage a professional baseball team should have long outgrown it. It just doesn’t matter how old and wise he gets and how hard he tries, Willie Bloomquist is not going to be as good as Alberto Callaspo. And every game in which Hillman writes Bloomquist’s name on the starting roster and entertains fuzzy thoughts about how Willie’s "game smarts" and heart are helping the team more than would starting guys who are still “learning to play the right way” will be one more game in which the Royals’ chances of breaking 85 wins in the foreseeable future will be further squandered.
Overall I still have a positive view of Hillman and Moore, but this recent spell of counter productive roster moves has me worried they are giving in too much to their sentimental prejudices. Money has been poorly spent this off season, but perhaps more importantly, roster spots have been allocated poorly. Farnsworth, Ramirez, Waechter, Bloomquist, Gload and Jacobs are all pretty well assured of making the 25 man roster and I just do not see any of them helping this club actually become better than respectable.
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Yeah, I still give Moore a thumbs up,
although less enthusiastically than I did last year. I think he has only made one truly terrible move since arriving, although there are four more decisions which might end up proving to be pretty hurtful in the long run. His mistakes are still evened out by his positive moves. Soria and Meche outweigh Guillen and Bloomquist easily.
I think Moustakas might end up being a substantial black mark on Moore’s record. I know most here do not agree with me on this one. We’ll know more about this one after this season. I think Nunez was on the verge of a breakout and I do not care for Jacobs at all so I think this trade might prove to be a VERY poor one in hindsight.
But overall, I still give Moore a B-. Hell, compare where the Royals are today vs. where they were in May 2006. Can you really give Moore a below average grade overall? I don’t think so.
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I agree with much in your post
but in an analysis I dia a few months ago comparing the Guillen contract to the Meche contract re: marginal wins and $ value of Wins Above Replacement, I found (and I haven’t gone back and redone the analysis in light of things I’ve learned since then, so there’s my qualifier) that one year of suckitude from Guillen with his contract has already soaked up the “surplus value” from the excellent Meche deal.
Soria is great, of course, but Gload, Farns, etc. make that problematic.
The Krivsky analysis is good. One thing I’m pondering is that perhaps DMGM, whom I still think has excellent skills for evaluating very young players for the draft and in the low minors, doesn’t realize that once a player as an established and significant major league statistical record, that “scouting” and “upside” don’t matter as much. It’s one thing to use those skills when evaluating high school players where stats aren’t really “convertable.” It’s another thing when giving contracts to free agents in their 30s…
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 11, 2009 3:28 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Excellent if disturbing post.
Moore seemed to be a great coup for the Royals when first hired. His early moves seemed clever and well-reasoned. This offseason has been concerning, to say the least. Perhaps you could defend last year’s signing of Guillen as someone to bat in the 4 spot and take pressure off Gordon and Butler. This year’s signings have reeked with grit and good old boy gimmickry. A great positive for the Royals has been Glass’s willingness to expand payroll, which coincided with the stadium deal. Once Glass had a better idea about future revenue streams, he has seemed quite willing to spend. Let’s hope Dayton doesn’t equate spending with results. Baltimore is a great example of a team that pissed off money with little results.
by hunter s. royal on Jan 11, 2009 1:07 PM EST reply actions
Over the last three years I think the two worst run clubs have been Baltimore and Cincinnati.
Krivsky’s jackassery drove me away from even following the Reds. It was just no fun. And Baltimore’s transaction sheet from 2006 and 2007 looks more like a dark comedy than a real effort to overcome the Red Sox’ and Yankees.
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I hope you are writing with a pen name. If the cheerleaders over at RC get wind of this pessimistic heresy there could be a contract out on you.
Considering their devotion to “all things Moore” I’m sure they would vastly overpay for that service. Good post from an objective, disinterested source.
Kyle Farns***** is my hero. Not many men can turn zero talent into 9.5 mil during a recession.
by Steve Hovley on Jan 11, 2009 1:56 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Cheerleaders don't scare me.
And if pessimism was gonna kill me I wouldn’t have never made it through the 2005 and 2006 seasons.
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I really, really like where the farm system is going
but I haven’t been a fan at all of most of moves from the last two off-seasons.
I like that Moore has convinced Glass to spend more on the farm system
and on international signings, but I am pretty low on Moore’s only two first round draft picks. We’ll see. It is too soon to tell.
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Is "In Dayton We Trust" still in love with Dayton Moore?
I think after this season we should all at least be re-thinking our feelings about the great Dayton.
The immoderate moderator
So we're supposed to stop talking about Dayton Moore now?
Or just stop saying anything negative. You know, we’ve talked a lot this offseason about how good/bad the offense is. Should we stop talking about that too?
Maybe we should just spend our time writing new cheers for the Royals.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Jan 11, 2009 4:20 PM EST up reply actions
somehow I don't think you'd find it so
if this was another post about how Gil Meche had pitched well and stuck it to Neyer, or about how Ozzie Guillen is an asshole, or about how Kenny Williams was stupid for move x., or about what a great draft the Royals had in 2008, or about resigning Greinke
what’s really dead is DMGM’s free pass
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 11, 2009 5:46 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
if it was the 23452345th post in the last 2 days...
I think I would.
There’s a difference between discussing something and beating a dead horse. If you can’t figure out that difference, well then…
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by doublestix on Jan 11, 2009 8:48 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
....I obviously need to spend more time at Royals Corner
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 11, 2009 9:04 PM EST up reply actions
I apologize for posting that
just the first thing that came to mind, I really don’t want to get into a “thing” about this. Should have held my tongue.
while there have been a number of posts on this topic, this is the first time J. Q. has posted on it.
I also realize that you are just tried of posts on this topic — not arguing that DMGM is beyond reproach. I shouldn’t be lumping you in with the “too much negativity” crowd. I get their point, too, although it’s a much weaker one. A dumbass move is a dumbass move. Beating the horse about it and telling the trutn about it are two different things.
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 11, 2009 9:10 PM EST up reply actions
yes...i agree there is a difference
And were past the point of discussing and telling the truth about it. Bloomquist and Farnsworthless aren’t going to disappear the more we bitch about the moves, as much as some of us would like to think.
move on, it happened. it’s not the end of the world (despite what you’d think reading this place). i know your stance and you know mine (i think, didn’t really make it clear), and we both know just about everyone elses as well.
keep harping if you and others want. i don’t see the point though. it’s just the same thing over and over and over and over (etc). as you were.
Founder of the Johnny Giavotella fan club.
actually, I don't know what your position is
I remember you saying that DMGM should get the benefit of doubt with relievers, but if i remember it rightly, that was in the pre-signing phase when we were arguing about whether Farns was worth $1M or $1.5M.
Meh, whatever. Of course it isn’t the end of the world, there are much more serious things.
just like it wasn’t the end of the world when Allard Baird brought in Elarton, Dougie, etc.
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 11, 2009 11:11 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
i saw another post that kinda summed up my feelings
I’ll paraphrase.
Signing Ross Gload to a 2 year deal worries me.
Not calling up Ryan Shealy in June worries me.
Signing Farnsworthless to a 2 year deal worries me.
Counting on HoRam to be a starter worries me.
Signing Willie Bloomquist to be a bench guy? Doesn’t worry me.
So long he’s not a starter, gets on base a decent amount (league average), and plays decent defense wherever he’s put, he’s a fine 25th man. Doesn’t really giddy me up for the season, but hardly pisses me off.
I’d also say Dougie and Elarton weren’t really that bad of signings at the time, but the fact that they were counted on too much was the problem.
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by doublestix on Jan 11, 2009 11:41 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I actually feel bad about i ncluding Dougie
He’s actually been a pretty good player. I mean, he’s not awesome, but legitimately above average. A “glove man” at first who is actually good with the glove, and not just compared with Giambi, Ortiz, Hafner, Butler, etc. And he’s good with the OBP and actually does/did hit a lot of doubles (e.g., differently from Shea “doubles power” Hillebrand, et. al. who are called “doubles hitters” because they have no power).
Dougie’s no Mark Teixeira, but he’s no Rossie, either.
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 11, 2009 11:46 PM EST up reply actions
This is exactly right
The problem with this particular wave of negativity is that it’s in response to what was actually perfectly good signing. We needed a player who could back up Aviles and challenge Callaspo at 2B, and with Gathright off the roster, a little extra speed on the bench is very welcome. And Bloomquist came at a reasonable value. There have been half a dozen intensely negative posts and hundreds of ridiculously critical comments in response to adding a decent bench player that fits the team’s needs with a decent contract. I feel like we’re really just reliving the Farnsworth backlash, which I guess is fine if that’s what everyone wants to do. It was a bad signing. But I think it’s getting a little stale.
I think Bloomquist was...
the cherry on the top of the sundae of suck that has been the Royals’ offseason FA performance this year. I think some of the negativity towards him isn’t just the signing itself, it’s the way the German re-signing was handled, and then the fact that Gload was given a similar (two-year) contract the year before and now looks redundant. As of right now, the bench is kind of a mess, and the Royals will likely be forced to make a move with at least one of the three that they shouldn’t have had to make.
"You think I’m a goddamned fool? I’m tired of all these stupidass questions every night. Just stay out if you’re going to ask all these dumbass questions. It’s stupid. Asking me that stupidass [BLEEP] every [BLEEP]ing [BLEEP] [BLEEP] night. [BLEEP] [BLEEP] [BLEEP] [unintelligible] I am sick and tired of [unintelligible] up with every [BLEEP]ing thing. No [BLEEP] from you guys, no [BLEEP] from you [BLEEP]ing players. And they can do any [BLEEP]ing thing they want to do. I’m sick and tired of all this bull[BLEEP]. Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it."
by Sweep_the_Leg on Jan 12, 2009 12:56 PM EST up reply actions
And if this were the only stupid move where Moore overpaid for crap, it wouldn't be a huge deal
Instead this is the most recent of several such moves. The cumulative effect is like getting kicked in the nuts for the fourth time.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Jan 12, 2009 2:41 PM EST up reply actions
"And Bloomquist came at a reasonable value" "decent bench player"
It’s statements like this that just baffle me. He isn’t decent and it wasn’t a reasonable price. Any team can acquire his level of overall production (offense and defense) for league minimum, and yet a 2-year commitment of $3.1M is a “reasonable value.” That’s a reasonable value in the same way that it is a reasonable value to buy a nickel for ten cents.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Jan 12, 2009 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
He's a guy that can play
any defensive position including SS and thought his career OBP is much lower, did post a .370 OBP last year, so there is reason to think he could be in the .340-.350 range next year. If you can get on base at an average rate, play good defense at any position, and act as a decent pinch runner of the bench, you’re a good MLB bench player, and your skill set is actually pretty difficult to find elsewhere. Who could the R’s have acquired at league minimum to play a decent defensive SS with a .340 OBP?
Does Bloomquist really play average defense at SS?
Most of his playing time comes in CF. He has only started 32 games at SS over the last three years. When he played everyday in the minors they had him at 2B most of the time. Looking at his playing time in the majors he is more of a 5th outfielder than a utility infielder.
Is Bloomquist really a better SS than German? I don’t know. Maybe.
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Probably a bit better
other may agree, but my take is that Callaspo can shift over to SS in an emergency, and his bat more than makes up for any defense inferiority to Bloomquist.
German is more useful on this team, but whatever.
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 12, 2009 8:54 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, at SS, I think he’s better defensively than German, and worse offensively. Callaspo could handle SS as needed. And German is better overall.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Jan 12, 2009 9:03 PM EST up reply actions
Does Bloomquist have a bat flip?
Case closed

Look out Brooks Robison/Frank White/other infielder!!111
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 12, 2009 9:25 PM EST up reply actions
there are other skills to being a GM, other than scouting
and i think we’re seeing that
not to get into another scouts v stats argument, but a huge component of statistical analysis was factoring in cost, markets, etc. and i think that managing the roster/payroll is something that dayton is struggling with
exactly
I think another issue might be a structural/leadship style thing. Personally, I don’t think it matters whether or not a GM is a scout or a stats type. But is he willing to incorporate the various kinds of knowledge out there? Where is the information coming from? Who does he listen to.
There’s probably a longer blog post at driveline that will come out of this, but it’s worth noting that I’ve read comments by “established” sabermetricians that imply that even in the supposedly more “saber-friendly” FOs, the saber-dept doesn’t have nearly adequate resources.
But that’s not even the biggest issue, if you ask me. how can Gms best utilize the different resources out there? What kind of people are they listening to. Now, while I’m enamored with the new Mariners FO just like so many others, the truth is we don’t know what will happen. But what is most interseting to me is that the new GM is a total scouts guy from a similar player development background as Dayton Moore. Yet he goes out and established what seems to be one of the more ambitious stats departments in the majors… will he listen to them? Will they actually help? We’ll see.
But the cool part is the idea of getting different sorts of voices out there on strategy, players, etc. I’m think DMGM is a good player development guy. Mike Arbuckle got great results in Philly. If those guys like J. J. Piccollo, then he’s probably good, too.
The thing is, they all have the same background and approach. Who’s really bringing the “different perspective’ at the highest levels of the organziation? Dan Glass? If we accept that every approach has advantages and disadvantages… is there any reason to think that Moore, Arbuckle, and Piccollo differ? I don’t mean differ on opinions: "that kid’s got a great ass,” “No, it’s too droopy.” That’s unfair, and meant to be a bit funny, but the issue is whether there’s someone who truly has DMGM’s ear who’s first priority isn’t a player’s buttocks, or tools, or whatever (it doesn’t have to be physical attributes, just an example), but something else.
And, yes, the same would apply if there was some organization that did things completely by the numbers (literally). Which, of course, is total fantasy relative to the supposed “unfair stereotype” of a team that doesn’t really understand what sabermetrics is about.
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 11, 2009 6:42 PM EST up reply actions
What I wrote at Baseball Think Factory at the Bloomquist signing
I’m officially counting this off-season as a huge ball of suck. The Coco trade was forgiveable and I actually kinda liked it the more I thought about it. The Jacobs deal was stupid, but I can’t fault a GM too much for wanting to add a 30 HR bat to the lineup, terrible OBA and defense notwithstanding. The Farnsworth deal was stupid. No justification for that. Giving Horacio Ramirez $1.9 mill in guaranteed money was dumb. And this just puts me over the edge. $3 million guaranteed to Wee Willie Bloomquist? Are you friggin kidding me? That makes as much sense as giving Ross Gload a two year guaranteed deal. Oh wait, Dayton did that too!
I think DM ultimately has this organization headed in the right direction with the draft and player development, but I’m not at all convinced once he gets us back to respectability he can get us anywhere near contention. His trades are underwhelming, his free agent acquisitions are plain baffling and his roster management is pretty lousy.
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The Royals Middle Infield 2003 - Present as explained by the Simpsons:
Skinner: Well, I was wrong.The lizards areBerroa is a godsend.
Lisa: But isn’t that a bit short-sighted? What happens when we’re overrun bylizardsBerroa?
Skinner: No problem. We simplyrelease wave after wave of Chinese needle snakestrade a prospect to pick up Tony Pena Jr. They’ll wipe outthe lizardsBerroa.
Lisa: Butaren’t the snakesisn’t TPJ even worse?
Skinner: Yes, but we’re prepared for that. We’ve lined up a fabuloustype of gorilla that thrives on snake meatreplacement in Willie Bloomquist.
Lisa: But then we’re stuck withgorillasBloomquist!
Skinner: No, that’s the beautiful part. When wintertime rolls around,the gorillasBloomquist simplyfreeze to deathgets cut.
by Top Ramen on Jan 12, 2009 2:07 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
bloom
“And Bloomquist came at a reasonable value” “decent bench player” It’s statements like this that just baffle me
that is because nyroyal sport speciality is golf
Speaking as a Reds fan, your review of Krivsky is on point
I would add that the acquisition of Hatteberg really fueled his veteran fetish. Subsequent oldies signed on the cheap (like Conine as you point out) didn’t play nearly as well.
Most of the Reds blogosphere started turning on Wayne after the Kearns/Lopez trade in the summer of 2006. Obviously, it doesn’t look as bad in retrospect because Kearns and Lopez have cratered, but at the time I was stupefied that two above-average, cost-controlled position players were flipped for two relievers (and the MLB-ready one was damaged goods). I think Krivsky became even more reticent afterwards, and that along with the end of his luck dumpster diving sealed his fate.
by ken on Jan 12, 2009 8:32 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
And about Moore,
he’s at least not making mistakes with older players as much as Krivsky. Jacobs might be a flawed player but he’s still young, and Crisp should help the OF defense. The Krivsky equivalent pick ups would have been Jose Vidro and Jason Michaels.
Well, there was Jose Guillen
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Jan 12, 2009 9:06 PM EST up reply actions
and the circle is complete
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 12, 2009 9:25 PM EST up reply actions
I see where you're coming from
But at least Farnsworth has some upside given his power. I wouldn’t sign him but I can see how a scouty GM could be enticed to do so. There was something so hopeless about signing Stanton and extending Cormier – you just knew that there was no way it could work out and that’s exactly what happened.
WRT Guillen, I got nothing.
It was the July 13th massacre that drove me away from Krivsky, and eventually the Reds.
At the time this deal looked so obviously stupid I simply went insane with rage. And in truth, I never really recovered.
Along with Kerans and Lopez Sweaterpants also gave up a recent #1 pick , Ryan Wagner. Beyond Majewski and Bray Krivsky also was excited about bringing Royce Clayton onto the roster. Clayton is the exact type of player Krivsky always fell for. Couldn’t hit, couldn’t feild, expensive, but his advanced age offset all this. Anyone that old and crappy must be full of veteran magic!
Yeah, Krivsky loved Hatteberg, but at least Hatteberg did his job well and for a low salary.
A few other examples of Krivsky’s veteran fetish, Chris Hammond, Todd Hollingsworth, Quinton McCracken, Joe Mays, ….
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by James Quinn on Jan 12, 2009 11:59 PM EST up reply actions
...his advanced age offset all this. Anyone that old and (s)crappy must be full of veteran magic!
I swear that’s what she said! I swear it!
meat
by kabrink on Jan 13, 2009 12:22 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I've always liked Quinton McCracken's
name. Awesome.
by Royal from Queens on Jan 14, 2009 9:45 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, that's what she said
: (
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by James Quinn on Jan 13, 2009 11:27 AM EST up reply actions

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