Thinking About OBP: Another Perspective

In thinking about OBP and current or prospective Royals players, perhaps we should think more about the virtues of near-HOFer Andre Dawson. Perhaps having a few Dawsons is what Dayton Moore sees when he pursues a line-up of mixed OBP guys? Here's an interesting quote from Rosenthal:

Among more recently elected Hall of Famers, Eddie Murray was at .359, Reggie Jackson .356 and Dave Winfield .353 — OBPs that would not rank them among the top 50 active players.

Meanwhile, Ryne Sandberg was at .344, Robin Yount .342, Cal Ripken .340 and Gary Carter .335 — not that much better than Dawson.

- TL

10 months ago timlacy 11 comments 0 recs |

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Comments

The dying ideologies of mainstream baseball writers

its only a matter of time before they lose their voice…

by ZeppelinDZ on Jan 13, 2009 11:38 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

+1

by royalsreview on Jan 13, 2009 1:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Wow, Rosenthal misses something as basic as taking position into account

The idiocy of comparing a guy who played the majority of his career as a corner outfielder with a second baseman, two shortstops, and a catcher should be readily apparent.

The comparisons with Murray, Jackson, and Winfield are not much better. Thirty points of OBP is a huge difference — for the anti-OBP crowd, this is akin to Rosenthal saying a .270 hitter is essentially the same as a .300 hitter (or in Dawson’s case, a .279 hitter is the same as a .309 hitter). And despite playing roughly at the same time and the same amount of time, Dawson generated considerably less runs with his bat than the other three — Dawson was 266 runs above average (wRAA) for his career, Jackson was almost twice that (505 runs above average), Murray was 436 runs above average, and Winfield was 422 runs above average.

Rosenthal should stick to rumor mongering.

by Gopherballs on Jan 13, 2009 12:07 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

+1

by royalsreview on Jan 13, 2009 1:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Except that Rosenthal is arguing...

…that Dawson intentionally drove down his OBP in favor of driving in runs. Sure, others didn’t do that. But Dawson was essentially asked to do this by some of his coaches. He played for some weak Cubs teams and overcompensated. That’s likely what Dale Murphy did too (except Murphy got on base more). – TL

by timlacy on Jan 13, 2009 1:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

The only reason Joey Gathright doesn't have more HRs

is because he was intentionally trying to up his batting average by outrunning more infield groundballs.

by Top Ramen on Jan 13, 2009 1:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

The problem with this comment is...

…that Joey does nothing intentionally, only fast. :) – TL

by timlacy on Jan 13, 2009 1:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

them's the breaks

JoePo, among others, has shown that walks rates were essentially jsut as high in that era

I wonder how many other “bordeline HOFers” could make a similar claim

and, in any case, it doesn’t help DMGM, since whether or not it was “his fault,” Dawson’s style of hitting was less effective than getting on-base more.

Seems like part of the Cubs real curse might be moronic coaching

Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary since sometime in 2008.

by devil_fingers on Jan 13, 2009 1:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

But Dawson also posted many bad OBP seasons

during his 10 years with the Expos, mostly on winning teams and surrounded by other good hitters like Raines and Carter. The other players Rosenthal cited had the ability to put up good power numbers, drive in runs, and still get on-base at a decent clip.

I really liked Dawson a lot when he played and went to a lot of games he played during his Cub days, but he comes up short as Hall of Famer candidate.

by Gopherballs on Jan 13, 2009 8:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

My point with this post was...

…simply to forward that one could put together a pretty good team w/out OBP as one’s top consideration. Dawson’s style of offense was not ineffective. He might not have owned the .350 OBP, but he could make a single into a double with his speed. He got 2800 hits. His career BA was not horrible. He was a much better than average fielder. – TL

by timlacy on Jan 13, 2009 2:32 PM EST reply actions 0 recs