Good News, Everyone! You Can Help the Royals Somehow By Giving Them a Mo(o)re Accurate Community Projection!
As I'm sure you all remember my award-winning CHONE-based projections combined with a spreadsheet from Beyond the Box Score for the 2009 Royals that came out long ago (and by long ago, I mean earlier this week). Since then, Sky Kalkman has "perfected" his spreadsheet and started Beyond the Box Score's Community Projection Project. Your's truly offered to "coordinate" the Royals projections over here. I hope that's cool, 'cause it's too late. The idea is that the nerdy portion of each team's internet fanbase (us) would fill out its respective team's tab of this massive EditGrid spreadsheet (click the tabs at the bottom to get to KCA -- you'll have to "arrow over" pretty far to the right). As before, I've filled in the basic vaules, but this time, I didn't get too crazy and specific. I just went with some very lightly "contoured" playing time predictions and stuff.
Why? Because this isn't my personal projection, but a community projection that I hope we can all come together and participate in to some extent, despite some recent disagreements and what-not.
So what do we do?
To repeat what I said in my earlier post, I simply entered in CHONE's projected rate offensive and pitching stats available both from CHONE's own site and also from Fangraphs. I used CHONE as my starting point because it's free and easily accesible to everyone with a level of detail not yet available from any other free projection systems, and it's completely out now. That doesn't mean we can't incorporate stuff from other projection systems as they come out (PECOTA and ZiPS are excellent, but neither is fully out yet, and PECOTA is only properly accessible to Baseball Prospectus subscribers). I hope that we also get input from those systems when they come out with their Royals projections... but more on that in a minute.
Anything is open to question and stuff, but here are a few things I've already done that I think is pretty good so far, so you don't have to look at it (although I'm always open to suggestions) and we don't waste too much energy nitpicking:
- Baserunning: I basically used Baseball Prospectus's Baserunning Stat (EQBRR) to generate a projection for the baserunning numbers. I substracted the steals portion, since that is already included in wOBA. In general, I tried to be very conservative with this part in particular, since BP only has two years of data, and it isn't clear how to project this stuff. So the range is generally no greater than +1 or -1 run (+0.1 or -0.1 win) per player (Crisp has outstanding baserunning numbers).
- Defense: As before, I went through first an input CHONE's projections, which not everyone likes. Defense is very difficult to project, especially for players with less than 3 full years of data. So after I put in all of CHONE's projections, I went through and checked each player's recent years of bUZR stats. If there was a major discrepancy, I would change things, sometimes with reference to the Fans Scouting Reports. When in doubt, I moved closer to league average (0). Thus, as I described in my other post, despite Alex Gordon's dreadful (-9/150) projection from CHONE, I elected to have him as "average" because all the good PBP I've seen have him as substantially above average in 2007, and below average this season. His "career" bUZR/150 is +2.5. The Fans Scouting Report also has him well above average in 2007 and average in 2007. When in doubt, go to the average.
- Positions: I might need more help here than I think, but in general, I wanted to keep it simple, so I didn't list utility guys like Willie Bloomquist or Esteban German at all their possible positions, just both at 2B. Yeah, the defense will be different for each, but I think it evens out int he end. Mark Teahen is another issue, but I'll address that down below. Suggestions here are appreciated.
So What Do We Do Now?
The place where the "human element" is most needed is what some might call the "subjective" element (pictured left) of a team's projection, or more accurately, the areas were statistics can't help us (I reject the "not stats" = "not objective" on dorky philosophical grounds). What I've entered in so far are the players first that I think will start, and then an assortment of bench players that seem to be on the roster at the moment. Part of a good projection is that it hits a "midpoint" between the best and worst -- it's not a personal prediction. In this case, getting more "wins" for the projected Royals isn't really the goal. Indeed we're going to be "wrong," more likely than not. The goal is to be as close to right as possible. So at this point, we have to prepare for all possibilities, good and bad, and choose a midpoint. That's why CHONE's "main"projections are his 50th percentile projections, and why I started with them. But we'll get into what to do about projections we think would be better in just a minute...
- Who is going to be on the team, and how much will they play? As for playing time and positions, it's tough to tell, especially for bench players. After discussing with NYRoyal here and Sky over at BtBS, my thought is to balance realistic usage with optimal usage. Both NY and (to a lesser extenet) Sky favor "realism," and I agree with that, but I also think that reality has a tendency to pound its way through the thickest skulls. But let's move on to some examples...
- Who is going to do what in the bullpen? Yes, due to his contract, reputation, and (ahem) pedigree, pr0f3550r Kyle Farnsworth will probably start the year as setup man. As you can see on the spreadsheet (all the pitcher projections use FIP-ERA, by the way, as per Sky's advice), he doesn't project anywhere close to the #1 reliever behind Joakim Soria, but we all know that he's going to set up for the first part of the year, at least. I think that if the projections hold, eventually Trey will look to some of the other options. While I've contoured the IPs a bit so that it reflects reality and skills a bit, they're relatively flat. Here's where we need to do some work. Leverage makes a difference, but I also flattenedd that a bit, to represent the fluctuating roles behind Soria. The other question is about the back end of the bullpen. Are Jimmy Gobboel and/or Joel Peralta really going to make the team? Should we just project them for minimal innings? I couldn't fit all the possibilities on there... Remember that leverage needs to average out to 1, and total bullpen innings to 505.
- What about guys who might start and relieve? As has been noted, we don't know if Carlos Rosa or (shudder) Horacio Ramirez will start or relieve, or how much of each. I've put Rosa as a #6/#7 starter, and Ho-Ram as a garbage time reliever. It would be easier just to think this balances out, but if you guys want to split their time into both, that's OK.... but I don't want to have to alter the formatting of the spreadsheet too much, if at all, to add more spaces.
- How many innings will guys pitch? I suspect there will be some disagreement here. I was, again, pretty conservative, but I still think we'll end up being "high" for some guys. Yes, Gil Meche pitched 200+ innings the last two years, and Zack Greinke pitched 200+ in 2008. But those were some fairly surprising developments, from a projection standpoint, given previous performance. And remember that a midpoint has to take in the possibility of injuries, and even a minor one can cost a starter 3 starts, and 15 innings... So I've come up with a a very basic curve starting with Meche at 175 on down. That actually might be high for a starting point, but whatever. this is a community projection, not my personal one, so let's see what we can do. Remember to stay on target (940 starter innnings, 505 reliever innings, as listed), and that scrubs will have to pitch at some point.
- How many PAs per batter? Yes, the projection would be more exciting if we gave Alex Gordon and David DeJesus 680 ABs, relegated Guillen to bench duty, and so on... but, well, that's a (hopeful) prediction, not a projection. Things get tricky here, again. In general, for each position, we want to "project" at just under 700 ABs (I have less for the catchers because they'll generally be hitting eighth or ninth). This gets a bit complicated with bench guys who might play multiple positions. I put German and Bloomquist both as 2Bs (if we think German should be "cut," that's another issue) because those are closer to their primary positions, and the worse/better defensive ratings they'd get by moving to other positions are already sort of reflected in their respective positional adjustments. Teahen's in a similar situation (which is why he seems to get so many PAs -- time at first and 3rd, as well as backing up both Guillen and Dejesus). Keep in mind that while we want t he basic projections done in the next week or two, we'll keep tweaking it for roster moves until Opening Day.
- What if we don't agree with the wOBA/ERA/team projections? I'm guessing this is likely to be a sore spot with some people. But keep in mind what I said above -- this isn't a prediction, but a projection that is sort of a "baseline" for predictions of different possibilties. Player performance which deviates from a midpoint projection is almost by definition unprojectable. We don't "win" anything more in this case by projecting the Royals for a higher win total -- the goal here is relative accuracy. If you look at my probability chart from my "beta" post, you'll see that just because a team is projected for about 79 wins, that means we don't think they have a chance of winning 84. In fact, on that earlier version, the 79-win projection still had a 36.5% chance of finishing .500. But I digress from player performance... I came up with an idea of how we can alter things while still staying relatively "objective" in our overall team projection (which is the real goal here).
- How I suggest we "change" individual projections we think are too high/low: Look, I know we all have at least couple of players we think are going to do better than CHONE, ZiPS, etc. project. And for individual predictions, fine, use that. I won't repeat the "midpoint" point I've made a couple of times. I think it goes without saying that we're more likely have a more accurate community projection if we stick close to the midpoints and just try to get playing time/leverage distributions right. Having said, that, maybe we think the CHONE midpoints I posted for wOBA (FIP for pitchers, remember -- on CHONE's site he just does ERA, but FIP for the 50th percentile is carried at Fangraphs) are simply too high/low for some players. My suggestion is twofold:
- if you think that a player is projected too low, you can argue it, but it has to have firm statistical evidence from another top-flight projection system (ZiPS and, of course, PECOTA are what I'm thinking here). Indeed, I hope that people will take a look at those projections whenver possible (they aren't out yet for the Royals, at least). If you can make a case for it on those grounds (and no using the 80th percentile PECOTA projection to refute the 50th percentile CHONE projection), and most people agree, I'll calculate the wOBA/FIP if necessary and substitute that projection in.
- But what if none of the projection systems' 50th percentile is what we "know: a player's most likely performance will be. How can we balance our homer-ific wisdom with a reasonable projection? I came up wiht this: I'll give us one "mulligan," that is, one player can be "bumped up" to something like his 60th percentile CHONE projection (I would suggest young Mr. Greinke, but it's up to the group). From there, I suggest that for every player we "bump up," to his 60th (or maybe 70th) percentile we have to "bump down" another player with similar playing time to the 40th percentile (or however many "notches" correspond to the guy who is bumped up). Does that make sense? So no "hey, let's bump DDJ up to his 70th percentile, oh, okay, I guess we have to bump Brayan Pena down to his 30th..." That way, we can put character, or a little garlic, as Vinnie Colaiuta might say, into our a vanilla projections and process without skewing it too badly. Sound good? Maybe I can even post polls for promotions/demotions if that would work...
Sound good? I hope I'm not making this more complicated than it is, and that it can be fun and bring people who may have been arguing about too many things together. The link to the EditGrid is here, just browse to the KCA tab. It is also down below. Let me know if you have any questions, and let the Great Royals Review/BtBS/KCA Projection Debate of 2009 Begin (and hopefully can rationally get the vanilla projection beyond 77.3 wins)!
Note: The spreadsheet is set so that only the "coordinators" for each team (I'm the one for the Royals) can edit it. It's just simpler that way -- once we come to a consensus on each change, I'll make it.
Another Note: People should jump in with whatever comments they want to make, but I think I might start some "sub-threads" below, say, each day, so that people can contribute to a specific discussion...
Update, January 20, 5:11 PM EST: While we now have a "reasonable" and "objective" projection of 77.5 wins, this process hasn’t been quite as, um, "fun" as I’d hoped. I thought there’d be more angry criticisms of CHONE’s projections, or something. So, with a generous "thank you" to Colin Wyers, I’ve done something else… I’ve used a prototype Colin’s form for so that you can submit your own projections to me! Click here to see and use the form. Right now, I only have one for offense. Although you’re "’required" to fill most of the important counting stats, if you’re more comfortable with "projecting" rate stats for each player, fill in those, too, and I’ll make those the "priority" for your player. This is mostly meant as a way to liven up this projection process. The more entries I get, the more weight I’ll give them. Basically, then, I’ll so some crude "averaging" of this, meaning, after a few days, if we get a number of entries for a certain player, I’ll look and see what CHONE percentile to which the overall results are closest, and then sort of average the 50th percentile with that. Or something. It’s all very nebulous, but I hope you guys will get into it, and also that not too many jokes will come through… If I’m missing anyone, or there’s a simple way to make it easier, let me know.
Again, CLICK HERE to enter your own projections, whether based on Marcel/CHONE/PECOTA/Dempsey/Other system/your heart/your gut
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sorry, I get that a lot
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary since sometime in 2008.
by Matt Klaassen on Jan 16, 2009 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, but I retired from being the "twss" guy
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary since sometime in 2008.
by Matt Klaassen on Jan 17, 2009 12:28 AM EST up reply actions
(line)
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary since sometime in 2008.
by Matt Klaassen on Jan 17, 2009 12:28 AM EST up reply actions
3 questions:
Being new to this I’m wondering where I can get all of the various projections(Chone/PECOTA/Bill James)?
Would it be possible (any this would likely take a while) to average all the diffrent projections together to get some sort of super projection? Because it really seems to me, just from what I’ve seen, that certain projections (Chone stands out) are more pessimistic and others(Bill James for sure) seem optimistic.
Finally, why does the spreadsheet for this project have us winning fewer games than your old spreadsheet?
I refuse to set up a signature....DAMMIT
You can find the projections for Bill James, CHONE and Marcel at Fangraphs.com (you have to look player-by-player. You can see projections for the whole team at baseballprojection.com (CHONE). That also has more detailed projections in the “expanded” link. PECOTA isn’t out yet. ZiPS is coming out team by team and the Royals isn’t out yet.
Would it be possible (any this would likely take a while) to average all the diffrent projections together to get some sort of super projection?
I did that last year for the PECOTA, ZiPS, Marcel and Bill James. Either I or d_f or someone else will be doing something like that once all the projections are out, I’m sure.
it really seems to me, just from what I’ve seen, that certain projections (Chone stands out) are more pessimistic and others(Bill James for sure) seem optimistic.
Unfortunately by track record, CHONE, ZiPS and PECOTA have been the most accurate, while Bill James is arguably the least accurate.
Finally, why does the spreadsheet for this project have us winning fewer games than your old spreadsheet?
I haven’t dug into it, but from what he said above, I think the playing time estimates are different and are there for us to tinker with and give our input.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Jan 16, 2009 2:15 PM EST up reply actions
right right and right
the other one had more individual tweaking by me, including some possibly misapplied park factors to the hitter. It also had a lower league average wOBA and used ERA rather than FIP-ERA. Finally, Sky tweaked a number of things in this version.
I left it as conservative as possible, really, since I know that fans (if you guys are anything like me) tend to be overly optimistic.
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 16, 2009 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
overly optimistic?
on this site? that goes against the recent conventional thinking of pessimisim herein.
meat
Just to add
The ZIPS projections are released through the Baseball Think Factory website (baseballthinkfactory.org) on a team-by-team. Last year, Fangraphs.com added the ZIPS projections once they were released for all teams.
PECOTA is released exclusively through Baseball Prospectus (baseballprospectus.com), but as mentioned above, it is a pay site.
And as mentioned above, PECOTA, ZIPS, and Chone are the big three with the best track record in recent years. Frankly, I would ignore the Bill James projections (which really are not done by the man himself) if you have access to the others.
good to see you on this thread, GB
I hope you hang around and help us
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 16, 2009 2:33 PM EST up reply actions
Finally, why does the spreadsheet for this project have us winning fewer games than your old spreadsheet?
“Willie Bloomquist”.
Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.
by jonfmorse on Jan 16, 2009 10:27 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
honestly, i would just kinda hold where your at
I have a feeling a lot of people are gonna end up doing that (and fans are gonna be optimistic to a fault). I predict right now that the total wins predicted by this project is more than the 2430 that will occur
yeah, but that's the fun of the thing
BtBS (and I agree) wanted to make this a “community” project for blogs of teams, and I also think that the “wisdom of the crowd,” particularly the informed fans, can help sort out stuff like playing time and whatnot.
I don’t think BtBS is too concerned with the overall win total, than with having individual projections for the teams that are reasonable and community generated.
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary since sometime in 2008.
by Matt Klaassen on Jan 16, 2009 2:20 PM EST up reply actions
Why can't I find the KCA tab when I click that link?
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Jan 16, 2009 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
Wait, I found it.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Jan 16, 2009 2:22 PM EST up reply actions
So am I supposed to just freely edit fields?
How does this work. Are my edits submitted like a vote?
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Jan 16, 2009 2:22 PM EST up reply actions
no, sorry... I thought I put that up above
we just talk about stuff here, I’ll make the edits when there seems to be a general consensus
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary since sometime in 2008.
by Matt Klaassen on Jan 16, 2009 2:24 PM EST up reply actions
Ok, so we just list our various opinions on what we think should be edited with commentary, if we like
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Jan 16, 2009 2:25 PM EST up reply actions
yeah
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary since sometime in 2008.
by Matt Klaassen on Jan 16, 2009 2:27 PM EST up reply actions
First, I think Greinke should get the bump
I don’t like just bumping players projections merely because I think they are really good or “due for a breakout.” But sometimes a players performance record doesn’t match his true talent due to something odd like a freak injury or a mental breakdown. And sometimes players change something or really figure something out and suddenly take their game to a new level. I think Greinke has had both of those things happen. So, his stats over the last 3 years really don’t represent him very well. I think his 2008 stats are more like the “real” Greinke. So bumping him to his 60th percentile projection makes a lot of sense.
The immoderate moderator
I agree
everyone jump in with a “yea” or “nay!”
I’ll give it a bit, of course. And we can always change it if a bunch of people decide that “Zack sux” or something
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary since sometime in 2008.
by Matt Klaassen on Jan 16, 2009 2:41 PM EST up reply actions
nay -- I have little faith in Zack improving.
trade talks could easily distract him. Hey is that a Chipolte over there, bye.
by Jeff Zimmerman on Jan 16, 2009 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
Actually, by using his 60th percentile projection, we're saying that he'll be worse in 2009 than 2008
2008 (actual) 3.47 ERA, 3.56 FIP
2009 (CH-50) 4.20 ERA, 3.67 FIP
2009 (CH-60) 3.92 ERA, ??? FIP (probably something near his 2008 FIP)
So going by his better 60th percentile projection isn’t projecting any improvement. It’s predicting he’ll be worse, just not a lot worse.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Jan 16, 2009 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
he's terrible
Allard screwed us again
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 16, 2009 3:14 PM EST up reply actions
I want you to start the "Re-hire Allard Baird" thread
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Jan 16, 2009 3:31 PM EST up reply actions
heh
I’ll wait until he builds his resume some more
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary since sometime in 2008.
by Matt Klaassen on Jan 16, 2009 3:58 PM EST up reply actions
So CHONE's giving Greinke an ERA hit due to park, league, Royal fielding or some combination, right?
The ERA field should be netralized as much as possible. Defensive issues will be accounted for with the position players.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
I think CHONE is giving him a hit for 2006 and, to some extent 2007
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Jan 16, 2009 5:33 PM EST up reply actions
My guess
without know how much the system works, is that there isn’t enough data for 2006 and 2007, and thus more regression
I’m using the Fangraphs-listed FIP. When you take his innings up to 185 and move his FIP to the 60th percentile, his WAR goes from 3.1 to 3.8
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 16, 2009 7:28 PM EST up reply actions
1B,2B, and SS aren't what I would say,..
but the 25 man is far from being set. They could stay as they are until the roster is more set.
I would say much less time with Kila, Pena, more Bloom
German or Gload will be cut.
I agree about German, Gload, and/or Pena
being gone by the time the season starts, but maybe we should keep them on, even with a minimal number of PAs until that actually happens.
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 16, 2009 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
i would say thats probably a good idea
don’t remove PAs from people until they are DFA or released outright
that being said, pena, gload, and german are unlikely to be on this team in 09
C at bats
df – found what I was looking for earlier – Sky said "620 to 760 depending on lineup position (18 fewer PAs for each spot lower in the order). "
The catchers are not going to bat any higher than 7th, so probably 656 at bats total.
OK
they’re at 680 now, so that isn’t far off.
If I change it now, though, we’ll be short.
Maybe the best way to deal with this is to keep all this information, just get the “porportions” for each player at each position right, then decrease each player in each porportionally relative to lineup order after the other stuff is set?
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 16, 2009 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
and thanks
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 16, 2009 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
I am just digging in where I can
The other thing, which will be much tougher, is to guess/estimate time of batters vs RHP and vs LHP, Again, I agree to wait until roster is more set.
by Jeff Zimmerman on Jan 16, 2009 2:58 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not sure I agree with adjusting up for platooning for the spreadsheet
for various reasons, although I do agree that it matters strategically — I think it might be too much optimistic speculation, particularly given Hillman’ss …less than optimal… response to platoon situations in 2008.
but down the road
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 16, 2009 3:15 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I need to think about this more
but some consideration of platoons seem important, even if it is simply adjusting playing time to reflect prior usage. Olivo at 300 PA (presumptively with a large percentage against LHP) is going to look a whole lot different than Olivo at 500+ PA because most of the additional PA would be against RHP. Same thing for Jacobs, Teahen, etc.
I agree in principle
but how that interacts with the projections (and past usage) as you note, seems difficult
If Olivo had seem more ABs vs. RHP last year, what would be his projection this year? Mike Jacobs also shows signs of being platooned a bit he last three years.
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 16, 2009 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, that's what I need to think about
Per B-R, 70% of the team’s plate appearances are against RHP. So when breaking down the PAs for each position, the 70/30 RHP/LHP should be taken into account.
The risk with guys like Jacobs is that their projections are based on the numbers they have put up in essentially a platoon role — Jacobs has never had more than 520 PA in a season, and he has faced 80% RHP. If the projection for Jacobs is 260/320/500 based on his previous seasons (in which he never batted more than 520 times and faced 80% RHP), you cannot now say that he would have the same projection if his projected PAs are increased to 650. Those extra PAs are coming in large part against LHP.
Let me think about it over the weekend.
No, I want the answer RIGHT THE HELL NOW!!!111
thanks… looks forward to you (and TucsonRoyal) figuring this one out for us
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 16, 2009 4:59 PM EST up reply actions
I agree it needs to be discussed, just not now
Need to see who make team and what kind of lineups Hell-man uses in ST. We are trying to guess what will happen, which is somewhat scary.
by Jeff Zimmerman on Jan 16, 2009 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
The problem is that we get considerably further out on a limb
While the differences could be important, we’d be getting into second order speculation here. It’s hard to speculate how much playing time various players will get. I’m not comfortable with us further speculating about the percentage of playing time various players will get vs. LHP and RHP. Unfortunately, I don’t think prior usage patterns tell us much, because we have reason to believe they’ll be different in 2009. They have said Olivo is the starting catcher, not the backup catcher/DH he was last year. Teahen will likely be a super-utility guy and not the starter corner OFer he was last year. Jacobs is going to be…well, who knows.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Jan 16, 2009 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
Jacobs is going to be…well, who knows.
A first base version of Jose Guillen, right down to the Grudz-like offensive production?
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 16, 2009 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
Well yes, but...
…when will he be a 1B and when a DH and how often vs. LHP and how often vs. RHP. Lots of potentially important questions there.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Jan 16, 2009 4:10 PM EST up reply actions
yup
you know, screwing the future and trade possibilties, the best thing to maximize winning this season would be
Butler plays everyday
Jacobs/Shealy 1B/Dh platoon as suggested (Jacobs DH, Shealy 1B)
Teahen/Guillen platoon in RF
Or, perhaps even better:
Butler everyday
Teahen everyday in RF
Jacobs/Guillen platoon at DH
what a happy locker room that would be!
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 16, 2009 4:13 PM EST up reply actions
D_f for manager
As long as you do your batting order according to the Baseball Musings optimizer, I’ll support your candidacy.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Jan 16, 2009 4:18 PM EST up reply actions
Looking at vs LHP and vs RHP
Teahen should never see the light of day unless he is a pinch runner.
vs LHP (league ave splits and marcels projections)
OBP SLG 2OPS
Aviles 0.363 0.479 1.114
Butler 0.358 0.452 1.079
Esty G 0.359 0.404 1.032
Shealy 0.339 0.438 1.031
Guillen 0.326 0.445 1.016
Crisp 0.333 0.392 0.975
Buck 0.320 0.410 0.970
DeJesus 0.337 0.375 0.965
Gordon 0.325 0.395 0.964
Callaspo 0.333 0.375 0.958
Jacobs 0.298 0.434 0.956
Olivo 0.297 0.435 0.955
Teahen 0.321 0.384 0.946
by Jeff Zimmerman on Jan 16, 2009 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
You should figure it in
over a full season, Teahen is at least 1 win better than Guillen on defense
I see your point
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 16, 2009 4:32 PM EST up reply actions
I am all over lineups right now
Give me a week and it will be SB and IBB
by Jeff Zimmerman on Jan 16, 2009 4:41 PM EST up reply actions
My thoughts on the pitchers
Meche 185 ip – Over the last 3 years, he’s averaged 204 ip per season and the range has been from 186 to 216. So I think the likely midpoint for him is about 205 innings. But, there is injury risk. While he could spend anywhere from 0 days on the DL to many more than that, I think estimating one 15-day DL stint is fair and reasonable. So I’d conservatively go with 185.
Greinke 185 ip – In some ways, Greinke is a tougher call because his ip over the past 3 seasons have been all over the place. But, he’s young and he’s been entirely injury-free. And I think the risk of losing time to mental issues is small. He pitched 202 innings last year and I think the risk of injury is fairly small. So I think going with 185 ip makes sense and is fairly conservative.
Hochevar – 160
Bannister – 160
Davies – 150
I’m not married to the above three estimations, but I think Hochevar has to be as high or higher in ip than the other two. I think he’ll be in the rotation all year long, barring injury. Given that, I think he’s actually a good bet to have considerably more than 160 ip, and certainly as much or more than Bannister and Davies.
That would leave about 100 ip for other starters. I think the #6, 7 and 8 starters will be HoRam, Duckworth and Rosa, in that order. So, I would do this:
HoRam – 40 ip as a starter and 25 ip as a reliever for a total of 65 ip.
Duckworth – 35 ip as a starter and 0 ip as a reliever for a total of 35 ip.
Rosa – 25 ip as a starter and 35 ip as a reliever for a total of 60 ip.
As far as how you handle projecting them as starter vs. reliever, I’ll leave that up to you. I’d probably just go with the total ip for the player and use their 50th percentile projection and not worry about the starter/reliever differences.
Things I’d change for the relievers:
Mahay – 70 ip (he had about 65 last year and with a worse bullpen this year, I think Hillman will use him more)
Bale – 35 ip (given Bale’s injury history, I don’t think we should expect a full season from him. Chone projects 34 ip)
I think my various estimates mean some guys are going to have to lose ip to make this all work out right, which is a good thing because I think Waechter, Yabuta and Peralta are all too high. Any IP subtractions which need to be made should be made equally between the three.
One other tiny thing. I think Peralta and Waechter’s leverage should be transposed. If Waechter makes the team, it will be in one of the last spots in the bullpen and then he likely won’t perform too well, so he’ll get very low leverage, even lower than Peralta.
The immoderate moderator
good suggestions all -- thanks
just so you know, I’ll start implementing stuff when more people chime in. Maybe at the end of each day (hopefully there will be significant “action.”
And remember, everyone, none of this stuff is set in stone. Just because I change it once, doesn’t mean we can’t chagne it again
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 16, 2009 3:17 PM EST up reply actions
My heart, gut and most of my head...
…say that Meche and Greinke will both likely pitch more than 200 innings and that 190 ip is a fair, reasonable, conservative estimation which includes one 15-day DL stint to account for injury risk. Similarly those various organs tell me that Hochevar will be a starter all year and is likely to pitch 170+ innings.
But all of those projections left very few IP for the 6, 7 and 8 starters which didn’t seem quite likely. It didn’t look right or feel right. since starters outside of the top 5 often make a full season’s worth of starts or more (30+, 120+ ip). But maybe Greinke and Meche should be more like 190 ip and Bannister and Davies should be lower as it is likely guys like that who would lose starts to the 6, 7 and 8 starters. I don’t know.
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 16, 2009 3:36 PM EST up reply actions
yup
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 16, 2009 4:08 PM EST up reply actions
no prob
it’s better than doing real work
I just hope more fun and informed people like yourself get involved. I also hope that less sabemetrically-oriented readers get involved — good learning can happen on both sides
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 16, 2009 4:08 PM EST up reply actions
I also hope that less sabemetrically-oriented readers get involved
While right down my alley (and the alley of many of us), the length of your post, along with the use of a spreadsheet and the reliance on projections and the (very wise) limitations on changes all probably seem a little off putting for many people. Hopefully they’ll be willing to share at least some general suggestions, like “more PA’s for Butler” and things like that.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Jan 16, 2009 4:12 PM EST up reply actions
1B/DH question
It’s easier for me to think of this in terms of how much PT each player will get at each position (1B and DH) than to just pick a position for Jacobs, Butler, Shealy, etc. Would it be possible for us to split them up a bit? I know you don’t want to do this for everyone. Bloomquist’s 7 positions would be a real pain the ass. But could we do it for the 1B/DH clusterfuck?
The immoderate moderator
what I did
was basically just assume there would be 1400 PAs between 1B and DH. Of course, Butler and Jacobs will probably (hopefully, in Butler’s case) get some time at 1B, so I gave 800 ABs to the DH slot.. Given Jacobs (and, to a lesser extent, Butler’s) massive problems playing defense, I figure their defensive penalty is fairly accurately reflected by the DH penalty.
Also, the problem is that I’m not sure how the sheet would be thrown off by adding more rows to the !b slot. I could experiment… I’ll get back. Given Jacobs -8/150 CHONE projection, it might be less than a run’s difference, though.
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 16, 2009 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
Hmmmm
So I just need to come up with 1400 PA’s for the group. I can do that, but if I put Jacobs and Butler and DH, then my estimate is going to take that position over 800 PA’s. Because I think those two players are going to have the most PT out of the group. They will be the “regulars” in my opinion. As long as we recognize that the 1B and DH groups include multiple players who will play both, I don’t think we need to be too married to “no more than X PA’s” for either of those positions. If so, then:
DH
Butler 500 PA
Jacobs 500 PA
1B
Shealy 250
Ka’aihue 100
Gload 50 PA
I think Moore and Hillman are committed to playing Butler regularly. Unfortunately, I think they feel the same way about Jacobs. I don’t think he’ll be platooned much. I think they are just going to throw him out there most of the time because they value his power. I think Shealy will be around as the best defensive 1B and a guy who starts vs. some tough lefties (of which there are more than a few in the AL Central). I actually think 250 might be a little high for him. And I think Ka’aihue stays in Omaha until September barring someone’s unforeseen injury. And I guess I think it is more likely than not that Gload will be gone. Keep him on the list until he’s DFA’d.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Jan 16, 2009 4:27 PM EST up reply actions
Good thoughts, I like the way you think
I hope more people chime in. We’re all friends here, but I’m not sure you, me, and TusconJeffRoyalQandA qualify as a “community.”
I guess it’s really early, though.
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 16, 2009 4:33 PM EST up reply actions
Community
21st century America has new definitions of “community,” “family,” and all of those important things. Be progressive. Besides, George Will told me it was better when fewer people vote.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Jan 16, 2009 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
You forgot lazy SOB, but the wife and boss are the ones that call me that
by Jeff Zimmerman on Jan 16, 2009 4:37 PM EST up reply actions
heh
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 16, 2009 4:39 PM EST up reply actions
I'm doing a "practice run" on my computer with your suggestions, NY
The Royals are already up to 77.9 wins!
here’s something I just messed with that is sobering:
Granted, we don’t know how good/bad Kila’s defense will be, but assuming the gap between him and Mike Jacobs is the same as the DH/1B gap… well, even with CHONE’s more muted (relative to James) projection for Kila, over 500 PAs for both he’s .3 wins better than Jacobs.
GRRAAAAAAALKAHFKAJGWE%%%T!
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 16, 2009 4:42 PM EST up reply actions
wow, how the hell did I do that?
Did I rediscover the old sarcasm font somehow?
#that would be great#
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 16, 2009 4:43 PM EST up reply actions
I think you summoned the forces of darkness
Don’t mess with that again.
I really wonder what Kila would hit in the majors over a few hundred AB’s. I know that I couldn’t make any estimation that I’d feel comfortable with. Given his odd track record, I wouldn’t be surprised with anything from .225/.300/.375 to .275/.375/.490 in his rookie season. I wish we’d had a chance to find out. I don’t think we do now, unless someone breaks a leg. I don’t want to have to root for that.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Jan 16, 2009 4:51 PM EST up reply actions
this year with Kila is just like with Shealy last year
they should have called up Shealy at least a month earlier and given him all of Ross Gload’s PAs. Yeah, maybe he would have sucked horriblly, but really, worse than Gload? So now the Royals have to spend PAs that might be better given to Butler (or Kila~!) figuring out what they have with him, if anything.
Now, they added Jacobs. So even if Gload is gone, we’ve got Jacobs, who can’t do anything but hit homers off RHP, Butler, who needs every AB, and then Shealy, who is pretty necessary (particularly if Butler really ends up being a Jacobs-type defender) in a way, but may just end up being a Gload. We don’t have much of an idea with Shealy, becuase Ross Freakin Gload got so many second half PAs. Note that we also have no idea whether Butler can play 1B or not. No, there isn’t a good statistical sample size, but they can hardly say “if you watched him play every day, you’ll see he’s a DH.”
So now it’s 2009. If they’d played Shealy last year and he was just terrible, they’d know he was nothing, and either just bench him, trade him, or cut him with Gload. Then assuming you trade or Jacobs, you’ve got Butler/Jacobs as your 1B/Dh combo, no problem. Whatever. If Jacobs tanks and Kila is still hitting, you can call Kila up and give him a shot. Even if Shealy had been good, maybe they don’t feel they need to trade for Jacobs, and Shealy/Butler can be the combo. Shealy’s still no great shakes, so even if he’s good, if Kila’s hitting you can call him up.
But no, now you’ve got three guys for two slots. One whom can’t play defense, one who may not be able to hit at all, and one whom we don’t know about, but needs to play every day. So come August, we’ll probably have the same stupid situation again, with Kila at least doing OK in Omaha, but no playing time being available for him in KC.
Sorry, I know this has been gone over many times, and yes, I agree that we have no idea what Kila would do. But the overall situation is just so silly and overly -complicated that I just needed to rant.
Sorry.
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 16, 2009 4:59 PM EST up reply actions
and that's why so many of us
were lost last year when they kept Shealy locked up in Omaha and kept trotting out Gload.
absolutely
Note that we also have no idea whether Butler can play 1B or not.
This is the frickin’ inexplicable problem with last season. WTF? Why do we not already now know what Butler and Shealy can do? This should have been the whole purpose of LAST season not this coming season. How is this possible that they played Gload all that time for NO purpose whatsoever. I mean, seriously, is there a real possibility that DM/TH saw Gload as some kind of long term fix at 1B?? I really never understood this at all – still don’t.
meat
^^%$#@!
secret knowledge…
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 19, 2009 10:47 AM EST up reply actions
Butler
he’s going to have to show up to camp in shape. he was clearly out of shape last year, especially toward the end. if he’s still as big as he was last year, i bet they’ll send him to omaha.
i could easily be wrong. but I’m hardly the only one that thinks this.
that said, i think he’ll show up in better shape and he’ll get 500+ PA’s.
Founder of the Johnny Giavotella fan club.
yeah, I kinda agree
as long as he can avoid eating three sides of ribs by himself at Trey’s ranch, I think he’s starting to get the picture.
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 17, 2009 11:57 AM EST up reply actions
I'm just glad that he's at Trey's ranch with the IFers at all
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Jan 17, 2009 4:35 PM EST up reply actions
yar
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 17, 2009 4:53 PM EST up reply actions
shouldn't eaten those brownie Hoagy left sitting around...
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 17, 2009 11:29 PM EST up reply actions
Stalking players to determine the fluctuations in their weight is not cool
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Jan 17, 2009 11:42 PM EST up reply actions
It's ok for pretty girls to stalk players
That’s one of those unwritten rules.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Jan 18, 2009 12:26 AM EST up reply actions
d_f, I'm not sure how to link directly to the KCA sheet...
… but I know you can imbed a view of the data in a post. So maybe have a view of the sheet in your post, so that people can easily look at the Royals numbers and see when you’ve updated them…
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
OK, First topic, an easy one:
Who should get the “free bump” to the 60th percentile NYRoyal suggested Zack, and I tend to agree, but I was wondering if anyone else wanted to jump in here. This isn’t the last time we can talk about it, but it would be easy enough to get out of the way first — post any agreement/disagreement under this comment.
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I don't see many for sures to the 60th
I am sure there will be some, but there is as good as chance they will be in the 40th also (maybe besides Dejesus and Gordon)
by Jeff Zimmerman on Jan 17, 2009 8:49 AM EST up reply actions
I'd agree with Greinke
I’d vote for DDJ as well, his 60% looks very doable for him. That is, if I’m reading it correctly.
okay
but right now we’re just doing our one “free” mulligan — a bump that won’t “cost” us another bump down to 40th or whatever
But yeah, i would move Gordon up a bit for my own (homer-inflected) projection
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 17, 2009 11:56 AM EST up reply actions
well, that's for my own projection
we’ll decide on our own, here who does what, so don’t take my word for it.
I do think that Alex will out-hit DDJ next year. CHONE projects it, even the (lame) James projections do, and Marcel has them equal. We haven’t seen DDJ’s ZiPS or any Royals PECTOA yet. But Alex has power on his side, as well as age. DDJ’s still going to be a good player, but he just turned 29 — not ancient, but on the wrong side of the curve, particularly for a guy who isn’t exactly a burned or a power hitter. He has average to above average skills across the board, but once those start to slip a bit…
Again, not putting DDJ down, just relaying some thoughts.
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 17, 2009 12:43 PM EST up reply actions
With DDJ's age and comps, I'm comfortable with his 50th percentile projection
I actually think he’ll do a bit better than that, but I don’t think bumping his projection is quite warranted in my opinion.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Jan 17, 2009 4:37 PM EST up reply actions
yup, 50th
I thikn he can do better, too, but I think the 50th is good give his age and stuff. And 2007 did happen…
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 17, 2009 4:53 PM EST up reply actions
(although it wasn't as bad as some might think)
true mark of an underrated player — in a down year, everyone gets worried, and he still put up at 2.9 WAR
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 17, 2009 4:54 PM EST up reply actions
Second Topic: Catchers playing time
People should bring up what they want, but I’ll just start systematically going through these things, starting with the easy ones.
At the moment, I have the catcher’s PAs distributed like this, as you can see above:
Olivo 330
Buck 300
B. Pena 50
What do you think? Yes, I think there’s a decent chance that Buck or Olivo will be traded before or during the season, but this way we account for the rhetoric of Olivo being the starter, as well as the reality of how catchers work our and the chance that one gets traded.
A little Brayan Pena action is also in there since even if they both stay around, odds are the third catcher is gong to get some action. We can also talk about whether his 50th percentile projection is something we feel comfortable going with, given that it would make him easily the best player of the three
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My thought on catchers
I think the PT makes sense. They’ve said Olivo is the starter, but Buck should get a lot of PT as well. And Pena will likely get a Sept. call up and would get some PT if either of them goes on the DL. I’d definitely go with Pena’s 40th percentile projection. It was made on little data and somewhat unreliable minor league data at that. That isn’t a knock on the projection’s methodology. It used what it has to work with. But I think the projection it came up with is unrealistic. It should be bumped down.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Jan 17, 2009 2:13 AM EST up reply actions
I tend to agree, even that might be high
but anyone else want to chime in on Brayan’s projection? Here’s his expanded page. Check the percentiles — which looks most like the line you’d want? Any input from out minors/Omaha buffs? doublestix? kscoliny? minda33? Did he play at South Florida?
Even 40th is a good projection… If this guys D is any good, could be a very nice pickup by DMGM (there’s a lesson in all this).
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 17, 2009 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
I'd go with his 30th percentile projection, but that is probably more tinkering than we should be doing
Maybe ZiPS and/or PECOTA will be less sanguine about Brayan.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Jan 17, 2009 4:38 PM EST up reply actions
yeah
we’ll see what other people say, maybe move him down to the 40th if no one objects (that means we can move Alex up to 70th, right!?!?!), and then “salt to taste” when ZiPS and PECOTA come out.
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 17, 2009 4:53 PM EST up reply actions
We should run a "heart and gut" projection too
I’m actually thinking of eventually doing what many fansites do and posting a heart-gut-head community projection for each player. In a month or two, separate from the more realistic, intellectual exercise you and we are currently doing, I’d do a separate post for each player, asking for a community projection for each player’s stats. I would encourage everyone to predict based on whatever they wanted. If your gut says Player X is going to breakout or crater, then go for it. This will be mostly just for fun and will give rise to a pretty optimistic community projection.
Then, again just for fun, we could plug these stat projections into your spreadsheet and probably see what the Royals in contention would look like.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Jan 17, 2009 5:07 PM EST up reply actions
agreed
if you want to gather the data from people, that would be a lot of fun
you could do the spreadsheet if you wanted, of course, but I wouldn’t mind if others did the data acculmulation and organization. I could “wOBA-fy/FIP-ify” projections.
You should do the players relatively separately, so that people don’t see how overall optimistic in terms of how well the team would do if their projection came through — in other words, just do the individual player projections without showing anyone what it would look like on the teams level. Then bring out the sheet and see the Royals projected for 97 wins in 2009.
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 17, 2009 5:22 PM EST up reply actions
I could "wOBA-fy/FIP-ify" projections.
I would appreciate that. I’d collect the data, average them and send it to you in the format of your choice. Then, if you could wOBA and FIP it and WAR-crunch it, that would be great.
You should do the players relatively separately
Yeah, that was my thought. One every few days. I’d do one a week, but we’re running out of weeks for 25-30 players.
Then bring out the sheet and see the Royals projected for 97 wins in 2009.
Playoffs here we come, baby!
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Jan 17, 2009 5:33 PM EST up reply actions
b. pena
40th looks about right. pena has never really had problems hitting, it’s that his defense isn’t quite up to snuff. then again, if he could get 200 or so AB’s hitting against RHP (or in other words, NOT Olivo hitting against RHP), then he could be a nice addition. Plus he can play a mediocre 3B and OF in a pinch.
Founder of the Johnny Giavotella fan club.
30th works reviewing his career minor league splits that is definitely fair.
It takes 46 muscles to frown but only 4 to flip 'em the bird.
can I get a 20th?
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 17, 2009 11:50 PM EST up reply actions
That is actually the way I was leaning prior to just agreeing with you guys.
It takes 46 muscles to frown but only 4 to flip 'em the bird.
But that is just my natural propensity to look at BA first
if you could combine his 20th BA with his 30 OBP SLG that would be what I would expect
It takes 46 muscles to frown but only 4 to flip 'em the bird.
Third topic: the 1B/DH situation (already in progress)
The 1B/DH morass, already discussed above:
1. We should probably keep Gload on the list until he is actually cut/traded/buried under the floorboards of Trey’s barn. How many ABs for him?
2. How striclty will Jacobs be platooned, and how will/should this affect his projection (see the comments by Gopherballs and TusconRoyal above)..
3. How much playing time should we project for Shealy? If not much, which of Jacobs and Butler should get more time and 1B, and should we bother doing a separate line of projection for them (especially Jacobs, who CHONE projects at -8/150, while bUZR had him at -17/150 in 2008, and whom Dewan’s has as the worst first baseman in baseball over the last three years at -49 plays [about -40 runs]).
4. Should we even consider the horrifying possibiity that the organization wants to give Teahen substantial time at 1B?
5. What about Kila?
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My take
1. If me makes it as:
a. Legit player, Shealy or Teahen traded, I see him getting 200 ABs
b. If he makes the team do to injury (Guillen on DL) <50
Really a wait and see here. His at bats could be in OF or IB
2. I look at the numbers and 73% of all at bats is against RH pitching. He should only DH and of the 1400 AB from 1st and DH get 511, so with trey there, 550 is good
3. IF Shealy is healthy, he should always be in the field against LHP pitching or 200 at bats, for that. Also if we have a lead late, he should be at 1B ~25. Also, at this goes for all the IB, they should PH for weak hitters, so I give him another 25. 300 total. Leaving 550 for Butler.
Jacobs should never be in the field, maybe Trey will be nice and let him have 200 AB at 1B and let Butler DH those games.
4. Hope not, would rather see Teahen at 3B and Gordon at 1B, but who knows. Hopefully no.
5. Maybe 50, late season call up and when Shealy gets hurt. Shealy and his numbers could be similar, so not much drop off.
by Jeff Zimmerman on Jan 17, 2009 9:10 AM EST up reply actions
Random catch up
About 25 PAs for the DH slot need to be subtracted due to pitchers batting during interleague play, and replaced with 25 PA of awfulness (the rough equivalent of .425 OPS hitter).
As for the platoon issue above, the current playing estimates for most of the platoon issue players are not a big departure from historical use (e.g., no 600 PA for Jacobs, Olivo, etc.), so further adjustment may not be necessary. Teahen is the one hitter whose overall line might change due to an adjustment in projected playing time (most of his lost PA should be against LHP), so he might merit some consideration for a 10% upward bump.
As mentioned above by kcscolinny and on previous threads, B. Pena has historically struggled against RHP in the minors. But as a switch hitter on a team with the two catchers ahead of him with serious platoon issues against RHP, Pena is a good bet to receive a disproportionate number of PA against RHP. Using his 40% would be a good idea.
Made some changes
I haven’t put up the screenshots yet, but you can click here and tab waaaay over to KCA along the bottom
— consensus seems to be that Greinke got the 60th bump, so I did it
— not much debate over NYRoyals suggestion re: pitching IP distributions, so I did those, and did FIP+1 for Ho-Ram’s starting, and FIP-1 for Rosa’s relief
— Bumped down B. Pena to 40th%ile, and also knocked his defense down a run as per doublestix
— Changed the first base playing time as per NYRoyal. I didn’t change anything for platoons, since Jacobs has been pretty “platooned” already, and 500 PAs is about what he got each year. The changes we’re talking about making are only a few runs worth anyway, and at this point, with much of the roster uncertain, aren’t quite “there” yet. That’s partly why, at least for now, I also left Butler and Jacobs both in the DH spots - as I said before, Jacobs is so bad that he’s worse at 1B than at DH, and who knows with Butler. That’s something we can tackle again. The Teahen platoon situation is a good point, Gopherballs, and I hope we can come back to it. I’m not blowing it off, it’s just at this point, with all the other stuff going on, we don’t know how he’ll be used. But let’s mark it down as something to which we should come back.
-
Any suggestions on where to go next? I’d like to keep this going… anyone else we should bump down/up a bit? Gordon? Or is a .350 wOBA (.265/.349/.440) a good midpoint?
Does the bullpen look like the right set of guys?
Even more fun will start once ZiPS and PECOTA come out, but the more we get done now, the fast that will go. I figured there would be more arguments back-and-forth here, particularly since we currently have the Royals projected for 77.5 wins (I do want to discuss the CHONE lgAVG with the BtBS crew some more, but that’s another topic entirely…)
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I hope to hell we get better news from ZiPS and PECOTA
77.5 wins is sad.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Jan 19, 2009 9:51 PM EST up reply actions
It should go up as TPJ, Gload and/or German go off the list
by Jeff Zimmerman on Jan 19, 2009 10:27 PM EST up reply actions
also when Jose Guillen is traded for Nick Markakis
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 19, 2009 10:37 PM EST up reply actions
I'm helping a certain other Royals writer with projections
More information on that endeavor to come.
Here are a few. I hope to expand the stats to include everything from PA to EqA to VORP to statistics like OWP. Loving it. (I’m practicing with a fictional player named Johnny Superman – I can forward you this OOTP player’s awesome statistics if you so wish).
Here are a few sneak peaks (the stats are basic….I wanted to get the basics like win total, team runs allowed vs. runs scored, BA/OBP/SLG etc.)
RP – Jimmy Gobble
9 G, 1-0, 4.85 ERA, 19.2 IP, 8 BB, 12 K (this would verify NYRoyal in the other thread, although 4.85
LF – David DeJesus
.290/.367/.408, 553 AB, 8 HR, 71 RBI, 7/3 SB/CS (more RBI from the 3-slot, but not enough power, obviously, to warrant extended time in that role [the organization won’t realize this, though])
1B – Ross Gload
.291/.318/.377, 85 AB, 1 HR, 9 RBI, 0/0 SB/CS (I’m hoping 85 AB [and 89 PA’s, thanks to 4 HBP and an IBB with TPJ in the on-deck circle] is all he sees!)
RP – Robinson Tejeda
50 G, 3-4, 3.85 ERA, 61.0 IP, 29 BB, 50 K (terrible, terrible find by Dayton Moore!!! Gawdddd!!11111)
The Nation at large. I'll be playing the role of RR Resident Optimist this offseason. What role will you assume?
Heh
Thanks. If you want me to convert the hitter number to something usable wth regard to linear weights,cn you give me numbers of PAs, hits, 2bs, 3bs, BBs and HRs, at least? the PAs dont’ need to be a precisenumbr, it’s more a matter of getting proportional rates of hits, walks, 2bs, etc. to calculate wOBA.
For pitchers, just need IP, HR, K, BBs to calculate FIP
The Tejada numbers, if you’ll check, aren’t that far off of CHONE’s projections for him. I liked that pickup. I wish Moore would follow that example more often — getting potentially good players for the minimum, rather than paying millions for guys that we know suck. Tejada projects as by far the best guy in the bullpen other than Soria, and he’ll make less than almost everyone else.
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary since sometime in 2008.
by Matt Klaassen on Jan 20, 2009 12:45 PM EST up reply actions
well, Bale's FIP is better
but he’ll probably get hurt
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary since sometime in 2008.
by Matt Klaassen on Jan 20, 2009 12:45 PM EST up reply actions
Sure
I’ll work on the above.
It’s extremely difficult to chock a team full of Tejeda’s on league minimum and have them actually perform. Many more of Moore’s league-minimum acqusitions have failed. Just acquiring ‘x’, ‘y’, and ‘z’ players on league minimum, and having them fulfill themselves, is incredibly rare. It’s why Moore – like no G.M. in the history of the game – has ever been completely successful in that regard. Sometimes, you have to pay more than the league minimum. Sometimes millions more. It’s what you need to do in order to collect depth.
The Nation at large. I'll be playing the role of RR Resident Optimist this offseason. What role will you assume?
by Royals Nation on Jan 20, 2009 9:42 PM EST up reply actions
Rather:
I’ll work on the #s for your offer! :) (To clarify the above)
The Nation at large. I'll be playing the role of RR Resident Optimist this offseason. What role will you assume?
by Royals Nation on Jan 20, 2009 9:43 PM EST up reply actions
Sometimes, you have to pay more than the league minimum. Sometimes millions more. It’s what you need to do in order to collect depth.
Sometimes you have to pay millions more to collect below average and replacement level depth? [sighs and shakes my head] Of course you don’t. You can argue that sometimes you have to pay more for a good pitcher like Mahay. And I think that’s ok. Not great, not a shrewd signing but ok. Pay some real money to a couple guys so that you have some solid, reliable pitchers and not a bullpen full of risk. But don’t waste millions up and down the bullpen for below average and replacement level pitchers, which is what Moore has done this offseason.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Jan 20, 2009 10:27 PM EST up reply actions
Using at Sky's recet article at BTB...
… I was able to determine the average ML player (not replacement player) is paid on average 6 million for each win they bring. The is definitely more paid to Free agents than home grown talent and AAAA players. The is more and more being paid to average players, not alone super stars.
by Jeff Zimmerman on Jan 20, 2009 11:20 PM EST up reply actions
New Idea Everyone!
While we now have a “reasonable” and “objective” projection of 77.5 wins, this process hasn’t been quite as, um, “fun” as I’d hoped. I thought there’d be more angry criticisms of CHONE’s projections, or something. So, with a generous “thank you” to Colin Wyers, I’ve done something else…
I’ve used a prototype Colin’s form for so that you can submit your own projections to me! Click here to see the form. Right now, I only have one for offense. Although you’re “’required” to fill most of the important counting stats, if you’re more comfortable with “projecting” rate stats for each player, fill in those, too, and I’ll make those the “priority” for your player.
This is mostly meant as a way to liven up this projection process. The more entries I get, the more weight I’ll give them. Basically, then, I’ll so some crude “averaging” of this, meaning, after a few days, if we get a number of entries for a certain player, I’ll look and see what CHONE percentile to which the overall results are closest, and then sort of average teh 50th percentile with that. Or something. It’s all very nebulous, but I hope you guys will get into it, and also that not too many jokes will come through…
If I’m missing anyone, or there’s a simple way to make it easier, let me know.
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary since sometime in 2008.
I am fine with Chone right now ....
… and my major complaints will be with playing time once the roster is more set.
As a whole, you did a pretty good initial job so less complaining to go on.
This is the first season in a while where there is an actual chance, though small to make the playoffs. If we play 500 or better ball, someone(s) will need to break pass their projection, but I just can’t pick who. Any of the following could be that player: Callaspo, Butler, Shealy, Gordon, Hooch, Davies, Rosa, Kila and possible career years from Guillen, Teahen, Jacobs, Bannister and Greinke.
I would have no problem sitting on the numbers.
by Jeff Zimmerman on Jan 20, 2009 7:13 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, if we want a realistic estimation of how well the Royals will do...
…I think we need to stick pretty close to the best projections. Projection systems don’t do a good job of projecting playing time, so those adjustments make sense. Other than that, I think adding a lot more fan opinion to the performance projections just makes the numbers less accurate.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Jan 20, 2009 8:30 PM EST up reply actions
maybe I'll just use that template for a separate "fan-based" projection thing, and then we can compare the two
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary since sometime in 2008.
by Matt Klaassen on Jan 21, 2009 11:40 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, that's what I was thinking with my "heart-gut" community projections.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Jan 21, 2009 5:02 PM EST up reply actions
D_f, a question for you
I’m thinking about starting my heart-and-gut posts. Considering how long this takes, I don’t think I’m going to go one at a time. I want to get the done before spring training (because a couple good or bad ST games can, unfortunately, affect the opinions of some) so I’ll probably do something like three at a time.
Anyway, I want to make sure I ask for enough stats for you to crunch the team win numbers. Do I need to include everything on the above fill in the blanks form? I guess I’d prefer going with:
BA
OBP
SLG
HR
RBI
SB
CS
And not ask for PA or AB. I would prefer we get the above numbers, plug them in as appropriate and use the playing time estimates we all came up with above.
Then for pitchers I guess I’d go with
W
L
ERA
K
BB
I guess we need HR for pitchers too?
The immoderate moderator
here's one way
the thing is, in order to scale the rate stats (wOBA and whatever ERA version), I need PAs and IPs…
There are two ways of doing it — a first, more precise way (still heart and guy), and a second, more general way
1) Precise
For pitchers, we need HR, BB, Ks, and IP (to get the FIP)
For hitters We need hits, 2b, 3b, HR, BB, SB, CS, maybe HBP (but I can come up with numbers for that ourselves). Then I need PAs so that I can get a wOBA (a per PA rate stat).
So, you see that the idea isn’t to get playing time estimate, as to get something we can get a FIP and wOBA from to put with the other playing time stuff.
Now, that’s a bit hard for people to work through, so my second, less idea as I put the form together was this
2) Less precise:
Pitchers: Have people simply give an ERA (FIP is supposed to regress to that anyway), that’s easy enough, for each pitcher, and we’ll average those for the rate stat
Hitters: More complicated, but not really. Just have people give the “three slash” line, and then take the average, and see what CHONE percentile the overall average is the closest . Then I can generate a wOBA from that. Or I could do 1.75*OBP+SLG, then add in steals later (they’ll have to do steals separately… but that gets complicated…. we could leave it off or not).
Now, what i was thinking was that we could give people the option of doing either — leave entries for ERA for the pitchers, as well as IP/BB/K/HR/IP. If they just fill in the ERA, then that’s all I’ll use. If they want to do the more precise method, that’s fine, too.
For hitters, same thing — if they want to do the “long” way, they need PAs, Hits, 2b, 3b, HR, SB, CS. OR, if that’s too long, just do BA/OBP/SLG, and maybe SB/CS, and I’ll average those and get the closest line I can to that to get wOBA (linear weights) for the player.
Make sense? I have the form set up close to that for the hitters, and I can do one for the pitchers if you give me a few days.
I don’t know how you want to do it… Which method sounds like the one that would do the best? Perhaps leaving less choices, and just doing the “easy” method would be the best. The forms are set up at the moment so that (I think) I can crunch numbers easily). If you want to do that, that’s fine, but it might take a bit of getting used to. I can set things up how you want, test the forms, then you can tell me when you want to start. Once things are ready, you can try things out and do a big post getting people to do it — that’s harder at this point than the forms.
Sorry for the disjointed thoughts. Should probably have put this into an email, but whatever… it’s here now. This is your thing, so I’m sorry if it sounds like I"m trying to hijack it. Let me know watcha want. I’m happy to help.
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary since sometime in 2008.
by Matt Klaassen on Jan 22, 2009 10:35 PM EST up reply actions
A few thoughts
With regard to PA’s and IP, I really think we should stick with the community estimate. Playing time estimates are a bit complicated because it all has to work out to an appropriate total. So I think we should ask for other stats and then just use the existing community projection of playing time.
I want to include stats that make the exercise fun for people to predict, but also fairly useful. Do you think we can effectively approximate wOBA from BA, OBP, SLG, HR, RBI, SB? I know how wOBA is calculated and it would take some educated assumptions in order to spin those stats into a wOBA, but I think it is doable. You think? And perhaps the same for pitchers using W-L, ERA, K, BB, Save. I know many of these stats are extraneous to wOBA and FIP, but things like RBI and W-L are something people are interested in just for fun if nothing else.
I think I would prefer to avoid using the form. While the form is very useful, I think there would be more responses by having people just put their predictions in the comments, and also people get to share predictions that way. Everyone gets to see what everyone else thinks. I can just take everyone’s “votes” average them and then we can try to figure out how to shoehorn them into wOBA and FIP. And I do appreciate the help both with concept and execution.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Jan 22, 2009 11:33 PM EST up reply actions
Okay,
do what you want. I don’t mind wOBA-fying and FIP-iying stuff somehow, but if you dont want to use the form, it’syour thing. If you want to do the averaging and stuff, go for it, and then we can brainstorm how to fit it into the spreadsheet.
Again, I was saying we can just use the esimate for playing time — only have people give their PAs in order to establish how well they think the player will do over the year. We stick with the previous estimates for playing time…
anyway, yeah, I think your plan is the one you should go with, and I can help with the getting into WAR-shape and on the spreadsheet if you want.
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary since sometime in 2008.
by Matt Klaassen on Jan 22, 2009 11:43 PM EST up reply actions
Thanks
This is going to be a crazy process, but it’s more about fun than accuracy.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Jan 22, 2009 11:50 PM EST up reply actions
















