Scott Boras and Ethics
An interesting potential discussion piece at The Hardball Times by Jack Marshall, a professional ethicist. Worth reading for anyone who has strong opinions about Boras and his critics, on either side. As I understand it, he argues that Boras' negotiating tactics, as we know them (and which so many loathe), are not unethical.
However, he does make an interesting case that I have not seen made elsewhere by defenders of our national innocence (probably because they don't really think about it very carefully) -- that Boras, by representing so many high profile clients who effect each other's value on the free agent market, may be engaging in unethical conflicts of interest.
I'm not sure what I think, but it's an interesting and informed approach.
9 months ago
devil_fingers
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Meh.
I don’t think it’s a good argument. When Boras gets a big contract for one of his clients, it increases his other clients’ values. To have a true ethical conflict of interest, actions benefiting one client would have to potentially injure another… and barring incompetence, that just doesn’t happen with agents.
Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.
by jonfmorse on Jan 29, 2009 2:14 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
didn't this happen just this year
with Hosmer and Alvarez?
Don't Stop Believing!
by KC Chris on Jan 29, 2009 9:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
I think it did. Even if it is just missing out on a handful of at-bats in Rookie League, Hos was missing out on coaching and instruction after he had signed a perfectly valid contract. I think missing out on being coached by your team’s staff counts as injurious.
by DarthYoshi on Jan 29, 2009 10:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
likewise
how often does the ‘08 offseason scenario happen? it just doesn’t seem like its that frequent
sports fans hate agents because they are a proxy for the players they also deeply hate, deeply as in subconsciously
if boras was so loathesome, it seems like eventually he would stop being effective simply because a critical mass of people in the game would hate dealing with him and a challenger would emerge and overtake him
what do i know, really i know nothing
by royalsreview on Jan 29, 2009 2:55 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
sports fans hate agents because they are a proxy for the players they also deeply hate, deeply as in subconsciously
I actually think that fans hate agents (particularly successful ones) because they don’t want to hate the players and the agents make an easy target for resentment about the greed of the game. I think that’s why fans (and even sometimes commentators and broadcasters) refer to Boras “forcing” a client to do something (or some similar verb). They like to think that the player wasn’t playing hardball to get the most money; it was just the evil agent, when of course this isn’t true. The agent was just doing his best to get what the client wanted: the most money possible.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Jan 29, 2009 6:09 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes and no.
Agents do occasionally “force” their clients into situations they don’t approve of; hell, just look at the A-Rod fiasco. And even if one believes that A-Rod told Boras to play hardball and then did his own deal as a PR move, there have been plenty of other instances of agent malfeasance in the past.
In fact, I’d argue that any time you see someone(‘s agent) asking for X, and then the agent gets fired and the player settles for less than X, it was the agent who was pushing the player into a corner. He certainly didn’t get fired for being unable to GET the player X if that happens, so it’s fairly self-evident.
Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.
by jonfmorse on Jan 29, 2009 6:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
True
In fact, I’d argue that any time you see someone(‘s agent) asking for X, and then the agent gets fired and the player settles for less than X, it was the agent who was pushing the player into a corner.
Certainly in those cases it appears that the agent was not doing what the client wanted. But those situations are pretty rare.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Jan 29, 2009 6:56 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think it's as simple...
as saying that agents “force” clients to do certain things. Clearly, each player is an individual who is capable of making up his own mind about where he wants to be, how much he’s willing to play for, whether he’s open to trades, etc.
However, I do think that many agents (especially Boras) are incredibly persuasive people who obviously have their own agendas, as well. And many players are oftentimes young, uneducated, maybe even unintelligent, not very wise in the ways of the world, and perhaps less concerned about certain issues than their agents. Even though their parents may be heavily involved in a decision, there are many 18 year old kids (or perhaps younger if we’re talking non-U.S.) that are truly capable of understanding all the issues and making informed, mature judgments. And a lot of times their parents aren’t exactly a help, either (they can also have their own agendas—just go watch any little league game this summer…you’ll see at least a few).
All those factors can combine to make situations where the agent’s client is easily manipulable, and the agent is usually more than capable of manipulating the player if it fits the agent’s broader goal. That’s really when ethics and conflicts of interest come into play—when your agenda as an agent takes precedence over your client’s wishes and best interests. The player may be willing to settle for less to play for a team where he’s comfortable, but the agent ignore or gloss over those wishes to push for the most money or most advantageous situation that the agent can leverage again with the same player or different players.
With regard to Boras, I think the Manny/Red Sox/Dodgers situation was a prime example last year.
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it."
I'm puffing away, Hal.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Jan 29, 2009 10:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
One other thing to keep in mind
A lot of times, the agent’s job is far, far more integral to a player’s finances than just negotiating contracts and endorsements. Anyone remember what happened to Tony Dorsett?
Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.
by jonfmorse on Jan 29, 2009 11:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I should remember, but I actually don't
did his agent rip him off? Another Fred Taylor situation?
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by devil_fingers on Jan 29, 2009 1:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Cleaned him out
left him bankrupt.
Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.
by jonfmorse on Jan 30, 2009 12:42 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Players pick Boras as their agent for a reason
They know what he does and how he does it. Players choose Boras as an agent because they want the most money. For the most part, they don’t need to be manipulated. Boras clients want money uber alles.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Jan 29, 2009 2:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not all of them
I think some clients are above suspicion, and are obviously
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by devil_fingers on Jan 29, 2009 3:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I like how everyone in here thinks he is just this guy who does whatever the players want.
You want to know why people hate Boras?
1) He is a lawyer, one of the most hated jobs in the world
2) He is cocky and pompous. Just watch ESPN when he is on there he comes off as an ass.
3) His players almost always leave. And to think that he doesn’t have a play in that game is kind of ridiculous.
4) Boras craves attention and people don’t care for that. Casey Close has almost as many clients and has landed numerous highly paid contracts but how often do you hear his name in the media.
He profits from players leaving and filing for free agency. Yes the players have at least a 50/50 responsibility but come on do you think he sits down with them and gives them scenario A and B with no bias what so ever and it just happens that all the players leave. He leans to players leaving and he is a top notch negotiator anyone who negotiates for a living knows the difference between outright lying and omitting the full truth. When he discusses a players future with them he is negotiating with them trying to convince them to file for free agency because he believes that is what is best for them and him.
He has been fired by numerous players. There are reasons for that maybe they thought he was misleading them or they just didn’t like him or didn’t agree with him. Boras is good at his job but he also lies. He lied about Pedro Alvarez working out and staying in great shape and I’m sure that isn’t the first or last time he will lie about something. I would argue that Casey Close is just as good as Boras without the negative stigma. You can’t argue with Boras success but over the last few years he has almost hurt as many clients as he has helped.
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.
by kcscoliny on Jan 29, 2009 10:45 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Maybe Michael and Holly
need to serenade him with their “Let’s Get Ethical” song.
by DarthYoshi on Jan 29, 2009 11:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Nitpick:
His players don’t always leave in the sense you’re making it out to be.
Boras’s goal isn’t for players to change teams; it’s for his clients to hit the open market and be bid on. Yes, a lot of his players “leave.” Thing is, when a player “leaves” because his team trades him in July to get prospects back rather than risk losing him in free agency, that’s not on the agent.
Quick, name the last time a big-market team lost a Boras client they had an interest in keeping. His thing only works when the team’s afraid to get nothing for something because they can’t afford the FA payday.
Sarcasm™. It's the new gravy.
by jonfmorse on Jan 29, 2009 11:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good point
Quick, name the last time a big-market team lost a Boras client they had an interest in keeping.
There in lies the problem with baseball. Your statement should be name the last time any team lost a Boras client that they wanted to keep. That’s not Boras fault but that is the problem that he is taking advantage of. Baseball is split into too many markets, MAJOR, Large, Middle, Small and the Marlins.
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.
by kcscoliny on Jan 29, 2009 11:16 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It IS on the agent...
to the extent that he persuades his client to go to the open market no matter what. If he repeatedly shuns any legitimate attempts from team to sign young players to a Greinke-like extension (one that buys out FA years), and tells his clients that he doesn’t think it’s in their best interests, then the agent is definitely a big part of the problem. And I think that that is a common criticism of Boras. It’s why most of us were very concerned about Zack’s extension when it was rumored that he was going to switch agents and hire Boras. Granted, in a situation where a player has another agent and decides to hire Boras, it’s very likely that the player has made the decision to hit the open market himself. But when a guy like Boras gets his claws into a young player at the beginning of his career, it’s nearly a foregone conclusion that he’ll go to FA. In fact, I think there have been some cases where younger players fired Boras because, at least in part, they wanted to sign an extension and stay with the team that drafted them, and Boras likely kept browbeating them into hitting the market.
I agree, though, that a big part of the problem (probably the larger part) is the system that results in such a disparity in payrolls that forces smaller-market teams to not be competitive in trying to re-sign their own players.
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it."
I'm puffing away, Hal.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Jan 29, 2009 11:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Most of his clients know what they are getting into. Scott has been around for a long time and has a reputation. I don’t think Boras would browbeat a player into hitting the market. He paints a picture, it just happens that when he paints the free agent picture he is Picasso and when he paints the signing with the same team picture he is using stick figures. He is a highly skilled negotiator so don’t think he is browbeating anyone he is too good for that.
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.
by kcscoliny on Jan 29, 2009 11:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I am one of the few that thinks KC could sign Moose or Hoz
longterm if they showed up in KC though. I think Boras would be open to it if the weight of the risk is largely on the teams part. If Moose or Hoz showed up and GMDM wanted to toss a deal at them like the Rays did Longoria I think even that would be too good for Boras to pass up. That type of deal is hugely risk weighted in the players favor.
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.
by kcscoliny on Jan 29, 2009 11:27 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Boras would be open to it…
That’s the essence of the problem with Boras and certain other agents: It becomes more about what Boras thinks is a good idea and less about what the player really wants.
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it."
I'm puffing away, Hal.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Jan 29, 2009 11:56 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's half of an agents job to be a buffer between management and the player.
You first have to convince the player then convince the agent. I would say of the two Hoz is the least likely to sign longterm. From what I read Moose didn’t take Boras’s advice about signing with the Royals.
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.
by kcscoliny on Jan 29, 2009 12:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He gets his clients what they want:
the most money possible.
You want to know why people hate Boras? Because he’s really, really good at his job. And fans don’t like their team getting squeezed for money by some agent.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Jan 29, 2009 2:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Because he’s really, really good at his job. And fans don’t like their team getting squeezed for money by some agent.
Doubtful…He comes off as a slick slime lawyer. He is an older version of Rosenthal that’s why most people hate him. Steinberg did very well for pro QB’s and is well known and David Falk was well known as MJ’s agent and neither have the rep that Rosenthal or Boras have. They are viewed as arrogant and creeps that along with the team stuff is why people can’t stand them.
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.
by kcscoliny on Jan 29, 2009 3:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm just wondering, but...
what is it with you and lawyers? I mean, I make fun of lawyers all the time, but I was raised by two lawyers.
My dad is fond of saying, “People often think lawyers are slimeballs, until they need one.” Point being, Boras may be a pompous ass, but lots of non-lawyer people are like that too. So I don’t get why him coming off as a lawyer pushes your buttons like that.
by DarthYoshi on Jan 29, 2009 3:15 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Ya it's just me isn't it
Google it…You’ll see it pops up quite often as one of the most hated professions along with politicians and police. I’m talking from a normal persons view of him not a biased lawyer view. Most people don’t really know what he does they know some of what he does and how he comes off in the media.
I could careless about what he does.
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.
by kcscoliny on Jan 29, 2009 3:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I know lawyers come up as one of the most hated professions
But I’m asking about you personally, why does Scott Boras coming off as a lawyer push your buttons? I get that he’s an attention-grabbing egomaniac, but why is coming off as a lawyer inherently bad?
I’m not trying to pick a fight. I just don’t get why Scott Boras = lawyer is a reason for me to dislike him.
by DarthYoshi on Jan 29, 2009 3:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
As far as me personally I don't care
I have friends that are lawyers, Sarpy County attorney(yes I’m getting the inside scoop on the status of the ORoyals), etc. It’s not a personal thing at all and if you take it that way I’m sorry. It’s more of how my friends view these guys is what I’m speaking from. I’m a Finance manger at a couple dealerships so if anyone knows about peoples bias against an industry I do.
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.
by kcscoliny on Jan 29, 2009 3:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I bet most people don't even know that Boras is a lawyer
Him being a lawyer is irrelevant to the public opinion of him.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Jan 29, 2009 3:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You guys are leaving out the obvious.
It doesn’t matter if he IS a lawyer or not. His persona is that of a lawyer and his arrogance is what people don’t like. The results don’t matter either it is the method that he uses that bother people. He revels in being in front of the negotiations and being the face of them as does Rosenhaus. People don’t mind the results of the agent all that much, they generally blame the players in the end when they are making so much money. Most people don’t like how Rosenhaus and Boras make themselves the story. Genske, Legacy Sports (Sabathia) got the best deal of the summer and I don’t see people attacking them.
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.
by kcscoliny on Jan 29, 2009 3:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you had me at "esquire"
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by devil_fingers on Jan 29, 2009 3:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What do fans SEE of his "persona"?
That he demands a lot of money for his clients (and usually gets it)? That he threatens to have his draftees not sign, and is more than willing to follow through with it? It’s not like they see his face on TV a lot. Most people can’t even tell you what he looks like. His demands, and the results he gets, are what people “see” of him. And THAT is why they don’t like him.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Jan 29, 2009 3:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Whether you want to admit it or not the fans get to see the persona
he portrays and what the media portrays on him. That is why he is disliked not his results. If it was just his results then XM would be talking about what Casey Close does too or Insert Agent here, etc. I know he has great results on but his results the past few years aren’t that out of line with many other agents. CC’s agent got him the ‘11 opt-out clause which is as valuable as anything that Teix got plus a bigger signing bonus. Yet people aren’t bashing Genske. Both are great contracts but which agent was taking a backlash for his client. It’s more than the results.
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.
by kcscoliny on Jan 29, 2009 4:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If it was just his results then XM would be talking about what Casey Close does too or Insert Agent here, etc.
How many first round draftees has Casey Close led to not sign, thus robbing teams (and their fans) of a top prospect? Did Casey Close get ARod his massive Rangers contract? All agents try to get the best deal for their clients, but most agents work with teams to get this done. Boras pushes and fights harder. He sets the money bar high makes teams come much closer to his number than theirs. Close is an effective agent, but he’s no Boras.
It’s more than the results.
I’m sure his combative nature, fighting against teams harder than most agents helps. But it is a combative method of pushing for more money which robs fans of top prospects and star players. THAT is why fans don’t like him.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Jan 29, 2009 4:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
David Falk
is the perfect comparison. You don’t know it probably but Falk has far better results as an agent than Boras does. SFX was purchased from Falk. Falk was Jordan’s agent both sport and marketing. He has landed more #1 NBA picks than any agent in pretty much any sport. He is the uber agent and do you think the average fan of most sports has any idea of who he is? No, why because he doesn’t want to be the face in front of the players ala Boras. Boras is hated because of his persona not his results.
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.
by kcscoliny on Jan 29, 2009 4:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
NBA agents can't compare
Falk doesn’t even have the opportunity to rob franchises of their first round draft picks or as much of an opportunity to move star players. The rookie scale salaries for draft picks and less unrestricted free agency of the NBA creates fewer opportunities for an agent of NBA players to piss off fans.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Jan 29, 2009 4:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They haven't always had the rookie scale.
Falk after the ‘95 NBA lockout pretty much set the market for teams contracts. During the ’98 lockout he could’ve started his own league damn near with 16 All stars under his control.
He owned that league during those days. A sport at the time that was more popular than MLB and no one ever or currently knew his control over the sport and its players. If they did they would’ve viewed him with tons of hate if it was only about results.
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.
by kcscoliny on Jan 29, 2009 4:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
how difficult is it really to negotiate NBA contracts?
Lebron signed up his 4 hs buddies to do his next contract…‘hey, i want the maximum’
‘ok’
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Jan 29, 2009 5:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes now it is that way after all the labor agreements
but it wasn’t that way prior to the restructuring.
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.
by kcscoliny on Jan 29, 2009 5:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Doubtful…He comes off as a slick slime lawyer.
That’s not it. Fans hate him because of him screwing teams out of top draft picks (like J.D. Drew, Hochevar and others). They hate him because he helps to get players out of lower paying teams onto higher paying teams. They hate him because he squeezes teams for money and then squeezes harder and gets even more money. His tactics screw teams, and hence their fans, and doing this gets the most money for his clients.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Jan 29, 2009 3:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There are many agents that do those things and don't have the rep he does.
I guess Rosenthal is hated by football fans for all those same reasons. It couldn’t be that they come off as arogant.
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.
by kcscoliny on Jan 29, 2009 3:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I hate Ken Rosenthal as much as the next guy
but you know who’s even worse? Drew Rosenhaus
Man, agents are about as popular as my latest boring Driveline Article.
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by devil_fingers on Jan 29, 2009 3:24 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
oh yeah
(winky face)
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by devil_fingers on Jan 29, 2009 3:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I read some of your article I'll get back to it.
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.
by kcscoliny on Jan 29, 2009 3:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I can't believe I thought of David Falk but couldn't remember Drew Rosenhaus
The mind is a wonderful maze.
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.
by kcscoliny on Jan 29, 2009 3:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Nobody does it as much or as well as Boras
Boras has been innovative in getting the most money for his clients. This isn’t just a PR job. He’s really, really good. People don’t hate him because of his style. They hate him because of his substance. When people bitch and moan about how Boras is bad for the game, it isn’t because they think his “slimy lawyer” style is bad for the game. It’s how he gets so much money for his clients that he’s killing the game economically. It’s all about the money.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Jan 29, 2009 3:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I would do what he does
in a heartbeat.
by wildthang on Jan 29, 2009 4:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
With regards to the Royals,
I think common perception around baseball is important. We may offer more money, but as with Hunter, our offer was never legitimately considered, only used to jack the offers from bigger teams higher. If the Royals are never seen as a legitimate destination, then all we’ll ever be is salary-inflators.
Is inflator a word? Firefox thinks not.
And I think someone like Boras keeps that perception up because it’s good for his clients. Therefore, I have a distaste for the man.
by Bornin85 on Jan 29, 2009 1:03 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
but on the other hand
If no one signs with KC, you can’t get much leverage out of an offer from KC right? Anyway I think Kansas City Dollars are as good as any to most people as long as you offer enough of them; it’s only an inflator if someone tops it.
by PopeSoria on Jan 29, 2009 2:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs















