Competitive Balance Is A Joke!
[Note by royalsreview, 01/08/09 3:17 PM EST ] From the Fanposts.
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I am so tired of the popularity contest that MLB has become. If I have to see any more Yankee ass kissing, I'm going to throw up. The national media's blantant bias towards the Northeast and California is disgusting. I know it's nothing new, but baseball writers and analyst continuealy defend the Yankees outrageous payroll by saying that there is still "competitve balance" in baseball regardless of how much money the large market teams spend. Well that is just hogwash. Do they honestly think that the other 25 teams and their fans are THIS stupid. How many times have you heard this lately?
"Over the past 4 years there have been 8 different teams in the world series. That proves that there is competitive balance in baseball"
Thats a load of crap! That stat means nothing.
First off, 4 years is a small sample size. Second, when small market times like the Rays make it to the world series, it's clearly the exception not the rule. And third, it's called "COMPETITIVE Balance", not "world series balance". You can't just make the leap that the entire league is competitve because different teams are making it to the WS.
Perhaps a more meaningful stat would be (someone has probably already done this) to rank all of the MLB teams by their average annual payroll over the last ten years. Then, over the same ten year period, how many times did each team finish the season at .500 or better (defining "competitive" as being .500 or better). Then compare the number "competitive" seasons that the top 8 payroll teams produced, to the number of competitive seasons that the bottom 8 payroll teams produced. I'd bet that the top 8 payroll teams have had far far more competitve seasons.
There is no such thing as competitive balance in the current system. It's insulting when the "experts" say that there is. Everyone in baseball will talk about it, and throw the term around as if it's something good, and something that they strive for. But the truth is that competitive balance is NOT good for baseball, and they know it. As long the big market teams (Yankees, Mets, Red Sox, Dodgers, Angels, Phillys) stay on top, sign all the big names, compete for the WS titles, and the small market teams stay out of the way, then ratings will be up and merchandise will be sold and everyone will be happy. Without a salary cap, they are simply insuring that there will be competitive balance among the large market cash cow teams.
Is there any hope for the Royals? Beyond a fluke season here and there?
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Except the experts you are referring to aren't actually 'experts.'
This was a thoughtful, meaningful post. The lack of competitive balance in the sport is destroying the game. It’s also a reason postseason ratings are almost always piss poor.
by Royals Nation on
Jan 7, 2009 11:55 PM EST
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you HAVE to build a strong farm system
with the way it is, there is basically no other way for small market teams to compete. while i have not been a fan of some of the short term moves, I have no doubt the three-headed monster of DM, Picollo, and Arbuckle can build a monster farm system.
Founder of the Johnny Giavotella fan club.
by doublestix on
Jan 8, 2009 12:03 AM EST
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Is Picollo good?
I really don’t know much about him other than the jobs he’s held with the Royals. Do you know more about him? Should he be better than Ladnier? (I assume he’s taking over the draft from him) Does he have a history of being a good scout? Do we know the names of any of the good players he’s responsible for the Royals acquiring? Picollo’s performance is going to be one of the keys to the Royals success for years to come, and I really don’t know if he’s good at his job.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on
Jan 8, 2009 12:07 AM EST
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i don't know for sure
the baseball cube has a database of scouts who signed certain players, but it doesn’t seem to be working right now. i know he scouted and signed Dan Meyer, who was a big time prospect before injuries.
Founder of the Johnny Giavotella fan club.
by doublestix on
Jan 8, 2009 12:24 AM EST
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+1
While I’m almost certainly less of a fan of the FA signings than doublestix, from what little I know, I think the farm system has made tremendous strides… it just will take a while for it to bear fruit.
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by devil_fingers on
Jan 8, 2009 12:07 AM EST
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I'm all for people saying whatever they want
but I would suggest reading, say, Neil DeMause’s brief and helpful article on competive balance and salary cap ideas in Baseball Between the Numbers. DeMause is hardly an MLB or large-market suckup, but at least throws a lot of cold water on the notion that a salary cap would be good for baseball. Not that I wouldn’t believe a refutation of his arguments, but they need to be considered.
In any case, KC isn’t in a Division with teams that are have the sort of revenue advantage over them that NYA and BOS do. Minnesota, Chicago, Cleveland, and Detroits’s main advantage over KC has been that they’ve had competent management and thus better farm systems for longer. KC is catching up (and Kenny’s emptying the well, the new MIN GM’s incompetence, and DET’s financial problems will help), but it’s not going to happen overnight
Neither Toronto nor Tampa Bay are in “huge markets,” and neither would be the biggest in the AL Central. But Toronto probably could have won the AL Central last year, and TBA was way better than everyone there.
Baseball’s financial situation is flawed, don’t get me wrong. But Allard Baird and (mostly) the Glass family screwed the Royals way more than that structure ever did.
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by devil_fingers on
Jan 8, 2009 12:06 AM EST
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The White Sox are a top 10 market team. And this is based on Nate Silver’s work a few years ago on the real market size of baseball franchises, including shared markets like Chicago. This isn’t based merely on Chicago’s population or the generic “size of market” of Chicago. So, with the White Sox in the top 10 and Cleveland and Detroit in the middle 10 and the Royals at the very bottom, in the smallest market, I think we can say that three of the teams in the division have a significant resource advantage over the Royals. Yes it would be worse if the Royals were in the AL East.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on
Jan 8, 2009 12:12 AM EST
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I can't sleep
can you point me to the Silver article(s) when you have a chance? I just re-read DeMause’s article, and if Silver’s article is later, I assume some of the data or the approachj probably supercedes DeMause’s
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by devil_fingers on
Jan 8, 2009 2:20 AM EST
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Silver did a three-part article on market size
It wasn’t about competitive balance or anything like that. It was just using a multi-variant analysis to determine true market size and, by extension relative market size.
For some reason I can’t find the link to part 2, but it was in May of 2007 (more recent than I remembered), sometime between May 3 and May 14.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on
Jan 8, 2009 2:28 AM EST
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And yet
The White Sox do not dominate this division.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on
Jan 8, 2009 12:34 PM EST
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And yet
that doesn’t show there’s not competitive imbalance.
by djk royal on
Jan 8, 2009 1:28 PM EST
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what would show it?
at least within the Al Central? And not just for the Royals?
In DeMause’s study in BBTN, he found a .11 coefficient of correlation between tv market sizes and playoff appearances — that means that in the years he looked at (1995-2005), only TV market size is only about 11 percent of the reason teams get into the playoffs (and revenue is elminated because it doesn’t necessarily relate straight up to market size — and revenues go up when teams make the playoffs — the the Indians, in a below-average TV market, made tons of revenue during the years in question because of their appearances)
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by devil_fingers on
Jan 8, 2009 1:39 PM EST
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How about what NYRoyal showed?
Over the last 10 years, the total number of playoff appearances by teams in each group:
Largest 10 MLB market teams: 44
Smallest 10 MLB market teams: 22
Do you think that is just coincidence? Of course a small market team can still go to the playoffs if they’re better ran but with more front offices becoming smarter every year I fear the competitive imbalance will only grow. And it is already 2 to 1.
by djk royal on
Jan 8, 2009 1:51 PM EST
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That's true
I don’t think it’s slam dunk case, though — like i said, I’ll have to read Silver’s articles and see what actually correlates to what.
I am interested, and I do acknowledge that it’s a problem.
Of more immediate concern to me is, after the Meche signing, that DMGM has had one season of relative stupidity (Guillen, Mahaay), followed by one of utter dumbfuckery (so far)
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by devil_fingers on
Jan 8, 2009 1:54 PM EST
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I think in some respects it is that simple.
If the Royals hired a random fan from the stands this offseason to be GM and told him he could have $80 million of extra payroll, the random fan would be smart enough to sign Texiera, Sabaitha, Burnett and Furcal.
If this happened would the Royals be more or less likely to make the playoffs?
Now imagine having the smartest front office in the game like Boston and give them that advantage and the situation only worsens because the money would be spent efficiently.
by djk royal on
Jan 8, 2009 2:00 PM EST
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What about the White Sox, Tigers, Twins, and Indians?
I agree that your point makes common sense, but a lot of things look like that. Again, I don’t know how to do it myself, but I’d like to see an updated version of DeMause’s study — the numbers all made sense there, until he broke them down and showed it to be bullshit
evolution isn’t something we “saw” until Darwin pointed it out; non-Euclidean geometries don’t make sense to me, either, but they do when they are argued for
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by devil_fingers on
Jan 8, 2009 2:12 PM EST
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part of this is the complexity of the argument
understand how many variables go into winning and losing. Its hard for statisticians and economists to sift through it with data and spreadsheets, much less someone who is making a series of thought experiments. You are almost best to look at things case by case.
Yes, the red sox won two world series with their top players on their team because they had the financial means to pay them. But that certainly wasn’t the only reason they won.
Money always helps, but it doesn’t trump smarts.
by ZeppelinDZ on
Jan 8, 2009 2:35 PM EST
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I'm taking a simplistic approach, granted, but:
Money always helps
If money always helps then it is a competitive advantage to have more of it.
by djk royal on
Jan 8, 2009 2:41 PM EST
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yes
And I think that fact really bothers people when they talk about sports. Sports are suppose to be that escape from the real world which those greedy bastard rich guys can’t take from us. Baseball is suppose to give a fair chance to everyone.
The problem is that profit motive among the owners is one of the main reasons why sports have become what they are. That top athletes play baseball and the huge stadium which provide amazing gameday experiences exist. Its expected for people to think like they do.
Don’t get me wrong, I believe competitive balance is still important, but for the reason as not to disenfranchise your fanbase.
by ZeppelinDZ on
Jan 8, 2009 2:48 PM EST
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i.e.
its in MLB’s best (financial) interest to make sure the royals win enough/profit enough to continue to exist so that the Yankees have someone to play.
Dynasty’s are very counterproductive to that
by ZeppelinDZ on
Jan 8, 2009 2:58 PM EST
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"Money always helps but it doesn't trump smarts"
Then why do the richer teams make it to the playoffs twice as often as the poorer teams? The richer teams just happen to be smarter? I think the richer and poor teams have some good and bad front offices, but the richer teams have more success. But having a lot of money can make up for mistakes. The Dodgers don’t have a particularly good front office, but their money keeps them in contention. Over the last 10 years, the’ve had 85+ wins six times.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on
Jan 8, 2009 2:47 PM EST
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Then why do the richer teams make it to the playoffs twice as often as the poorer teams?
because they are richer, thats my whole point
by ZeppelinDZ on
Jan 8, 2009 2:49 PM EST
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Hey, that was my whole point too
So if there are smart teams and stupid teams in both the richer and poor groups of teams and the rich teams are having more success, then it looks like money is trumping smarts. Or at least money is having more success.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on
Jan 8, 2009 2:51 PM EST
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A. there are way more than 2 variables in the system
B. There is likely a correlation between the two (they are interlinked)
C. Poor teams winning (rays, marlins come to mind) would suggest that money isn’t THE factor
not disagreeing with your point, but its a complex system that is probably getting way too oversimplified in these posts imo.
by ZeppelinDZ on
Jan 8, 2009 2:53 PM EST
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I don't think that anyone has suggested that money is the only important factor to winning
But there is only one constant, structural advantage in the system, and that is money. With regard to one very important factor, large market teams have a significant advantage because of the nature of the economic system within major league baseball.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on
Jan 8, 2009 2:58 PM EST
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Then we are in agreement (on the first phase of the argument)
And you think this unlevel playing field, with its resultant competitive imbalance is good for Major League Baseball. I dissent.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on
Jan 8, 2009 3:00 PM EST
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too a degree
leveraging more from larger markets has its benefits
If you are commish, would you rather have 2 happy new yorkers and one unhappy guy from KC, or 2 unhappy new yorkers, etc..
I understand where you are coming from, but to me, in the long run, the sport is in better shape with at least some imbalance based on fanbase, even if that means the royals get screwed in the process, but whatever, I not giving the royals too much money til they win, so if they value my consumerism, they will make the royals good.
by ZeppelinDZ on
Jan 8, 2009 3:04 PM EST
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but like I have said
significant revenue sharing in MLB is an absolute must, I think MLB is killing there fanbase with its current system
by ZeppelinDZ on
Jan 8, 2009 3:10 PM EST
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So you are in favor of significant increases in revenue sharing?
Then we are in almost complete agreement.
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by NYRoyal on
Jan 8, 2009 3:14 PM EST
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hehe
yes, i think we agree a lot, we both just perfer to say it in our own terms
by ZeppelinDZ on
Jan 8, 2009 3:15 PM EST
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I think that is the main problem
MLB and NBA think like that and their ratings and overall viewership continue to drop.
The people on the coast shouldn’t be counted on to push the needle they have too many more options. These sports are trying to get ratings which in turn creates revenue they need to push to the middle class and middle to the south of the country. As NECKCar has shown you can build a empire advertising to that group of people. The NBA and MLB will get left behind because they believe in this coast war.
When I lived in LA I would watch a Florida game at about 9am and then head to the beach. Why wouldn’t you?
It takes 46 muscles to frown but only 4 to flip 'em the bird.
by kcscoliny on
Jan 8, 2009 3:17 PM EST
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good point
I think their management does go too far in favor of large markets. Part of it is media driven. Put the monopoly power sports media provider ESPN in Connecticut and try and guess what rivalry they will play up…
by ZeppelinDZ on
Jan 8, 2009 3:24 PM EST
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I just think it is a simple math issue
more people live on the coasts
by royalsreview on
Jan 8, 2009 3:26 PM EST
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Yeah, ESPN and other media outlets are going to try to maximize viewership for any game(s) they broadcast
So of course they are going to want to broadcast the games of the largest market teams. Their shortsightedness is forgivable. But MLB needs to look out for the health of the entire league and maximizing a nationwide fanbase.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on
Jan 8, 2009 3:37 PM EST
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+1
now we are on the same wavelength
by ZeppelinDZ on
Jan 8, 2009 3:40 PM EST
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Yeah, I don’t expect or require ESPN, FOX or anyone else to take the long view and look out for the long-term interests of a national sport. But MLB needs to.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on
Jan 8, 2009 3:44 PM EST
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the sport is obviously dying
thats why no one shows up to the K when the Yankees come to town
by royalsreview on
Jan 8, 2009 5:07 PM EST
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thats just it tho
They justify themselves by pointing to increasing revenues etc.
never mind how much they could be making if they ran their league better
by ZeppelinDZ on
Jan 8, 2009 5:24 PM EST
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i just don't think there is any evidence that parity
= more revenues
by royalsreview on
Jan 8, 2009 5:44 PM EST
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i agree, the evidence is weak
its a theoretical argument that a kid in KC is less likely to follow baseball if his hometown team is losing, as opposed to just picking some other team that is winning right now. I can’t prove it, but it seems plausible to me.
by ZeppelinDZ on
Jan 8, 2009 5:52 PM EST
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So if the Yankees are popular then everything is fine?
Come on.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on
Jan 8, 2009 5:45 PM EST
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Help
can we get some sort of setting to “remargin” discussions when they get this far right? I can’t tell who is responding to whom.
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by devil_fingers on
Jan 8, 2009 5:49 PM EST
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Well, there's some chicken and egg here
I am fully on board with a revenue sharing system. I think the NFL is far healthier due to its broader competitive balance.
But, teams like the Royals need to understand that to field a winning team builds revenue through attendance, increased tv broadcasting, and advertising. But, cheap owners like Glass illogically want all those things to increase BEFORE spending the money to field a good team. This is the most boneheaded thinking imaginable.
Rich, ego driven people that feel the need to own a major league team in any sport need to be prepared to spend money first (make an investment, a concept which they should be familiar with) in order to make more money in the future.
meat
by kabrink on
Jan 8, 2009 10:22 PM EST
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I understand that is their thinking
I just don’t think it is working for them. The NBA and MLB were in their hayday when they had dominant midwest teams. The midwest has an inferiority complex and when the leagues openly play to it they would rather just now watch.
I’ve never lived in NY so I don’t know how many transplants they have but it seems like California is all transplants (I know that is a generalization). Those people lack loyalty to their west coast teams. Other than the Lakers I didn’t interact with anyone who was 100% loyal to too many west coast teams. USC is the hot thing now but it wasn’t too long ago that they were an afterthought.
If I ran the leagues I would push the East coast obviously but also push Chicago Hard. The teams in Chicago (Cubs, Bears, Bulls) have a natural love affair with alot of the rest of the country. Yes I hate the Cubs. I wouldn’t say the same thing about the west coast teams other than the Lakers. (Dodgers, Raiders, 49ers,etc.)
It takes 46 muscles to frown but only 4 to flip 'em the bird.
by kcscoliny on
Jan 8, 2009 3:51 PM EST
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But, it trumps mistakes
the big money teams can take “risks” and sign players almost willy-nilly. And, if later it proves a mistake, they don’t have a huge problem to solve. The same “risk” for a small revenue team is huge. If the move doesn’t pan out, they have shut down all other options for the length of the contract or longer.
meat
by kabrink on
Jan 8, 2009 10:15 PM EST
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The AL Central:
The White Sox have the highest average payroll in the central the last 4 years at $101.9 million and have the highest annual average win total at 87.5 wins per season and a world series title.
The Royals have the lowest payroll in the central the last 4 years at $52.3 million and have the lowest win total at 65.5 wins per season and surprisingly no world series title.
The 3 middle teams are more of a mixed bag with the lower revenue Twins and Indians averaging more wins than their higher revenue brethren the Tigers (although they did make a WS in that time span).
by djk royal on
Jan 8, 2009 2:47 PM EST
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Now compare the Royals to the Marlins and Rays payrolls to wins
Then compare the markets of the teams the Marlins and Rays compete with
I still don’t think that will prove much,
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by devil_fingers on
Jan 8, 2009 2:51 PM EST
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Does significantly higher winning percentages and many more playoff appearances by the richest teams prove anything?
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on
Jan 8, 2009 2:52 PM EST
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I'm responding to djk's post
all I’m asking for is someone to show exactly what hte correlation is based on Silver’s market size analysis, updating Demause’s
It means something, but, as DZ keeps pointing ouit, not everything. And we don’t know how much it means. I’m not saying it doesn’t mean anything, but I simply don’t think that you or djk have come close to proving it’s the biggest factor.
It might turn out to be the case that it is the biggest factor. But there isn’t enough evidence posted in this thread to make that case. At least not yet.
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by devil_fingers on
Jan 8, 2009 2:57 PM EST
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I would read silver
but part 2 and 3 are behind a wall
by ZeppelinDZ on
Jan 8, 2009 3:00 PM EST
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but his coverage on Kit Bond is most excellent
by ZeppelinDZ on
Jan 8, 2009 3:00 PM EST
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???
Missed it
I can only get part one of Silver’s study, too
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by devil_fingers on
Jan 8, 2009 3:01 PM EST
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MO-R Kit Bond is retiring from the senate in 2010
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/01/missouris-bond-will-retire-creating.html
as for BP article:
East coast = good
Midwest = Bad
by ZeppelinDZ on
Jan 8, 2009 3:06 PM EST
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The Rays have been...
an awful franchise for every year of their existence save one.
by djk royal on
Jan 8, 2009 2:53 PM EST
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Hey, as long as they get to the playoffs ever, that shows the playing field is level enough
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on
Jan 8, 2009 3:00 PM EST
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he was talking about winning
I’m just responding to his point
the Marlins win a lot more than the Royals do, and spent very little money
Not an ideal system, but again… not the point
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by devil_fingers on
Jan 8, 2009 3:03 PM EST
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The Rays...
were the only playoff team with a payroll of under $98 million last year. That is also just a coincidence I’m sure.
by djk royal on
Jan 8, 2009 3:05 PM EST
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Hey, I'm open to the possibility
and I’m in agreement that there needs to be better revenue sharing
and you’re switchign topics again, from wins to playoffs.
All you have to do is 1) show that the numbers that Demause used in his study have changed since 2008; 2) that he went about it wrong; 3) that Silver’s numbers supercede his in a way that prove your point
and I’ll stop arguing this small different. Death by a thousand cuts won’t cut it. Prove or disprove the correlation in that way, and I’m fine.
Whatever, we aren’ t that far apart. Unless you think DMGM’s just being held back by budget, and not by his incompetence for the last two years on the FA market.
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by devil_fingers on
Jan 8, 2009 4:41 PM EST
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a note on demause
never read the study, but going from your other posts…
.11 correlation of tv markets to playoffs
A. that’s tiny… in the statistics world, with only 30 teams and 10 years of data, that probably leans much more as no correlation than anything else.
B. That old adage “correlation does not imply causation.” Winning could produce a larger TV market, or any number of other iterations of unknown variables correlating to these.
if thats the extent of his conclusions, i would say his study leads us nowhere in this discussion. Is there more to his argument?
by ZeppelinDZ on
Jan 8, 2009 4:57 PM EST
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I'm not getting it across right -- but I think he agrees with you (and I find him persuasive, at least given his premises)
The section I’m thinking of has two parts. First, he tries to get a relationship between playoff appearances and revenue 1995-2005, and the coefficient is .55 — so “half” of getting to the playoffs would seem to be revenue (I think).
But, as he notes by referring to another study in the book, this isn’t conclusive, since there is a significant bump in revenue for teams that do get to the playoffs, so the causation might go the other way.
Thus, he the turns to the size of the TV market in relation to playoff appearances (which is a pretty different list from the revenue one), and get the .11 coefficient, and thus concludes that from 1995-2005, there is basically no significant correlation between market size and playoff appearances for the period under discussion.
I thought I was using the study simply to disprove the notion that larger market size and more frequent playoff appearances correlate. That’s why I kept asking for people arguing otherwise to show otherwise.
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by devil_fingers on
Jan 8, 2009 5:03 PM EST
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i follow
but i think its really important to understand what correlation means. One of the most common issues i see with the blogosphere sabrmetrics is how heavily people lean on Pearson correlation (CORREL. In a dynamic system such as baseball, it is a very, very, very limited statistical tool.
I think his study is very inconclusive, i.e. I don’t think he proved or disproved anything. His number of .11 is probably as meaningless as they come, correlation just doesn’t control other variables.
by ZeppelinDZ on
Jan 8, 2009 5:18 PM EST
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OK, I guess
you probably right, but you really should read it — I know I’m not explaining it clearly.
he’s also written a big book about the “new stadium” scam, but I haven’t read it.
I know that I don’t understand statistics and stuff, but I would think that such a low correlation does at least disprove the simplistic notion that larger tv market = more likely to get into the playoffs, given the history, if that’s all the variables you take into account. I guess I think that’s what people start from, and that if DeMause muddies the waters, that’s a good thing, since people simplistically just say mo’ money = less problems for teams.
But I cede to your greater wisdom in these matters.
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by devil_fingers on
Jan 8, 2009 5:36 PM EST
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hehe
BBTN is probably the one book i haven’t read on the subject that I really should. I have heard all sorts of good things about it.
As with whether is proves/disproves anything, my point is correlations looks at a 2 variable world. If you think baseball parity is a function of a mere 2 variables, then .11 says something. Otherwise, its very inconclusive, other things could be at work that we might not even be aware of.
by ZeppelinDZ on
Jan 8, 2009 5:48 PM EST
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its the terrorists
or the bears
even when it was the terrorists I knew it was the bears
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by devil_fingers on
Jan 8, 2009 5:49 PM EST
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yup
and the Marlins are even bigger cheap skates, taking advantage of the slave-labor wages of the pre-arb years, then dumping sub-optimal players on dumb GMs to pick up more cheap pre-arb players, go up against the Mets, Braves, and Phillies every year, and fuck over their fan base way worse than Glass, and yet they still win — if not everythihg
Let’s see what the results of Revenue/Market size about TBA after a few more years… and their revenues will go up, despite their market size, because, believe it or not, winning matters, and smaller market teams (and the DRs by some measure’s re as small as the Royals, but their inter-division, like the Marlins, are much “richer,” relatively speaking) can make money by winning.
The Rays, like the Royals pre-Baird, had a terrible GM — Chuck Lamar. Hmmmm… what what his pedigree?
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by devil_fingers on
Jan 8, 2009 3:01 PM EST
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Let’s see what the results of Revenue/Market size about TBA after a few more years… and their revenues will go up, despite their market size, because, believe it or not, winning matters, and smaller market teams (and the DRs by some measure’s re as small as the Royals, but their inter-division, like the Marlins, are much "richer," relatively speaking) can make money by winning.
Yes indeed, let’s see where the Rays are five years from now. How many of their young talented players are they going to be able to keep once they hit free agency? There’s going to be a massive sell off. And do you think the Rays will be able to compete with the Sox and Yanks after that sell off? They’ll have to rebuild in the basement for a while before getting back into contention. Small market teams can have some windows of success, that is if they build a great minor league system. And even that success is of limited duration before having to tear it down and rebuild again.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on
Jan 8, 2009 3:09 PM EST
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we'll see
I’m sure you read Keri’s piece about the myth of the “success cycle” in BBTN (guess what I got for Christmas?)
What’s their window? I don’t know, either. Pretty interesting numbers from Cots:
Kazmir: signed through 2011 with a 2012 club option
C. Pena (not that young): through 2010
Crawford: club options through 2010
Iwamura: super cheap deal with options through 2010
Shields signed through 2011, with club options through 2014
David Price 6/$8.5 through 2012
Longoria: signed through 2013, with club options 2014-2016
As far as I can tell, Navarro, Bartlett (sigh), Garza, Aybar, Howell, Hammel, Sonnanstine, and Joyce are all pre-arg or going into their first year of arb.
I hope that gives them enough time to replenish their minor league system!
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by devil_fingers on
Jan 8, 2009 4:48 PM EST
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A little off topic, but
I would hardly state that anyone earning hundreds of thousands of dollars to play a game is making “slave wages.” First of all, slaves don’t get paid. Second, the players have negotiated their way to this price (slaves don’t get to negotiate). Any bristle at any reference to professional athletes as “slaves” or even to being treated unfairly. So much money gets poured into sports that it disgusts me at times, and none of these athletes is unaware of what the benefits are. Don’t expect me to feel sorry for some pre-arbitration player for making more than both of my parents put together.
by BrRoyal on
Jan 8, 2009 5:26 PM EST
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Viva La Revolución, Let the proletariat unite.
The point being wage controls like salary caps and team control before free agency penalizes players for being good. Obviously the slave comment by d_f is hyperbole, but the point remains.
Would you like to work at a job where you weren’t allowed to make any more money because people who did less work than you complained?
Its a cornerstone of capitalism and the free market. You are certainly allowed to disagree with it, but understand the position you are taking there.
You do make a really interesting point about
the players have negotiated their way to this price
Technically, the players who you are referencing, the pre-arb guys, didn’t negotiate at all, their seniors did for them. Their result: Screw the new guys so we can have free agency.
by ZeppelinDZ on
Jan 8, 2009 5:37 PM EST
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What I mean by negotiation is
The Players Union has negotiated their way to the current league minimum. Also, if they don’t want to play for that meager sum, no one is forcing them. They can go get a real job. If the Players Union wants to be rid of arbitration, they could do it.
by BrRoyal on
Jan 9, 2009 11:51 AM EST
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OK, granted
I feel much the same way when other people use the term, and I’ve probably gotten too used to it.
On the other hand, other than the initial signing bonus when they are rookies, players _don’t get to negotiate their way to the league minimum above or below, for the most part, and during that period, almost all but the scrubbiest of MLB scrubs are worth significantly more than what they are making.
Mike Aviles was worth $19M this year, and he got a $1,000 signing bonus, and made $30K in the minors, until this year, with he got a prorated portion of $400,000… he had no leverage at all. Yeah, it isn’t slavery technically, of course, but it’s not exaclty great for the players, either.
Its nothing compared to what even the crappiest owner makes, either.
Ironically, “they know what they’re getting into, it isn’t really slavery” is one of those nice phrases I usually here from people when talking about migrant workers and similar people when they are explaining why they aren’t feeling sorry for “those types.”
I don’t mind the disagreement, but it doesn’t help to respond to hyperbole with sanctimony.
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by devil_fingers on
Jan 8, 2009 5:42 PM EST
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No the pre-arb players have no negotiating power
But the Players Union has negotiated their way to a six-figure minimum salary. I don’t care how tough the economy is, that salary is nothing to sneeze at.
Ironically, "they know what they’re getting into, it isn’t really slavery" is one of those nice phrases I usually here from people when talking about migrant workers and similar people when they are explaining why they aren’t feeling sorry for "those types."
I’ll grant you the rhetoric, but no one is forcing these guys to make hundreds of thousands of dollars (and then some) to play a game.
by BrRoyal on
Jan 9, 2009 11:55 AM EST
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I'm all for doing something to help level this extremely uneven playing field
Primarily greater revenue sharing. People pretending that the playing field isn’t really very uneven and that small market teams “have a shot” based on some very infrequent occurrences aren’t helping the situation any. If you don’t want to do anything that would deal with the problem, that’s fine. Just say that. Don’t pretend that there is no problem. The facts simply do not support that.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on
Jan 8, 2009 12:09 AM EST
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Agree on more revenue sharing
I just really dislike a salary cap. But I do think all local TV contracts should be split 50/50. YES viewers aren’t watching the Yanks play an intrasquad game after all.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on
Jan 8, 2009 12:35 PM EST
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+1
at least half the reason their tuning in is to see JoGui
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by devil_fingers on
Jan 8, 2009 1:40 PM EST
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Yes they are
They’re watching current Yankees play future Yankees.
Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!
by cmkeller on
Jan 9, 2009 8:04 AM EST
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Total agree on more revenue sharing.
Let it be a dollar to dollar match over 100 million or so. If the Yankees spend 300 million, they donate 200 million to the rest of the league.
by hunter s. royal on
Jan 8, 2009 12:51 AM EST
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i'll say it again
the mere creation of two central divisions did more to level the field than a salary cap would
by royalsreview on
Jan 8, 2009 1:21 AM EST
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That's a very odd statement
A salary cap (depending on what it was set at) would do a great job of leveling the playing field. Now it would have other consequences which make it potentially a bad idea. And I think greater revenue sharing would be a better idea. But this notion that the central divisions group together a bunch of small market teams, creating it’s own kind of baseball affirmative action is a fallacy. The Chicago White Sox are the 9th largest MLB market (below the Cubs, but well above every other AL Central team. The Detroit Tigers are right in the middle at about 15. The Indians are at about 20. The Twins are about 25, IIRC. And the Royals are down at 30. A division of 9, 15, 20, 25 and 30 levels the playing field more than a salary cap? That defies logic.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on
Jan 8, 2009 1:40 AM EST
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that isn't the whole story
Central + WC doubled the number of playoff teams, which, again, if we’re using playoffs or WS as the measuring stick, instantly increased everyone’s odds. the key is access to the playoffs, after that have fun and invent your chemistry-based post-facto storyline later. baseball just isn’t like football or basketball in that regard
each division is also smaller, which means less direct competition for everyone. i wouldn’t be surprised, also, if this actually has depressed spending. look at the entire NL, where random circumstaces created no great teams, which in turn led every GM to try to build an 85 win team because that was all they needed to do
yea, the CWS are sorta the 9th largest market team and they have an advatage over cleveland, but i doubt the indians wouldn’t rather compete against them instead of also adding in NY & BOS to the mix
by royalsreview on
Jan 8, 2009 1:49 AM EST
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How well has that helped the access to the playoffs?
Over the last 10 years, the total number of playoff appearances by teams in each group:
Largest 10 MLB market teams: 44
Smallest 10 MLB market teams: 22
Sure the three division format plus wildcard made the situation better than it would have been with just two divisions. But it didn’t level the playing field very much. An NFL-like salary cap would have leveled the playing field much more than that. I’ll settle for NFL-like revenue sharing.
yea, the CWS are sorta the 9th largest market team and they have an advatage over cleveland, but i doubt the indians wouldn’t rather compete against them instead of also adding in NY & BOS to the mix
The fact that it could be worse doesn’t mean that the current situation is good enough. Sure the playing field could be tilted at a 45 degree pitch instead of a 30 degree pitch, but that doesn’t mean that it’s fine for it to be tilted at 30 degrees.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on
Jan 8, 2009 2:06 AM EST
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2.2 per season does not seem like a problem to me
not enough to demand a new system
by royalsreview on
Jan 8, 2009 3:11 AM EST
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So the imbalance means nothing to you?
The large market teams get into the playoffs twice as often, with more of a diversity as to who gets in. The smaller market teams get into the playoffs half as often and it has mostly been just the Twins and A’s. So no matter how imbalanced the results are, as long as small market teams get a sniff of the playoffs, then everything is fine? As long as there have been some teams who have done everything right and gotten themselves into the playoffs, then let’s just stay status quo. And, at the same time, most large market teams are in contention more often than not and get into the playoffs even though they certainly don’t do everything right (Phillies, anyone?). All that money allows teams to paper over mistakes. Small market teams don’t have that luxury and we can see that in the results.
It amazes me how so many small market fans don’t really mind that their team is playing on an inherently uneven playing field. They just smile and swallow it. And why would revenue sharing be a bad idea? What would be the downside to this new system?
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on
Jan 8, 2009 3:17 AM EST
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There's an odd marriage between statheads and anti-salary cappers
I’m not sure if it’s because statheads try to be so non-emotional about the game or they just hate Selig, what, but for some reason statheads seem to be against most all efforts to “level the playing field.” Back when I paid for Baseball Prospectus, I remember that those guys were all vehemently anti-owner during the last labor dispute (2002 or something).
It seemed like the typical BP notion was to claim that competitive imbalance didn’t really exist, and if if did, the solution would be to put 7 teams in New York instead of institute salary controls. Maybe that’s technically correct, but come on.
I remember an e-mail exchange I had with Doug Pappas in the early days of Baseball Prospectus (this was around the “Share the Wealth” protest against the Yankees at the K), and I asked him why, as a Royals fan, I should care about Curt Schilling being able to 100% maximize his earing potential. He responded that the owners lie about everything and can’t be trusted, and something about it being morally wrong to construct artificial restraints on players’ abilities to make money.
I responded that he was missing the point, but he wouldn’t admit, even in theory, that a salary cap would help the Royals compete. But I dunno. Maybe we shouldn’t punish the Yankees for the Royals’ incompetence.
Really I’m an NFL guy anyway, so I’m biased towards the salary cap.
by hippdoghipp on
Jan 8, 2009 9:51 AM EST
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I don't know about the rest of it, but
the owners lie about everything and can’t be trusted
as true today as when it was written. R.I.P., Doug Pappas
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by devil_fingers on
Jan 8, 2009 11:52 AM EST
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True dat.
Not sure what I really think about competitive imbalance. It’s pretty complicated. I’m sure Bud Selig will choose the wisest path.
by hippdoghipp on
Jan 8, 2009 12:19 PM EST
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Part of the fixation with market size is really overstating one aspect of the issue
and its a beard for owners to hide behind
TV revenue is only one source of income for an owner, and there isn’t much of a correlation between the size of a city and how rich your owner happens to be
moreover, no one can agree on precisely what the problem is: is it only the yankees? is it just the top 5 teams? is it the bottom five? the bottom two? relatedly, some of teh supposed market evaluations are really really inaccurate (and if you don’t think MLB would let politics dictate some innacurate evaluations you’re crazy). for example, back in the heady days of jacobs field, people talked about the indians like they were a big market team, and spending wise, they certainly were. ditto for the orioles. one of the earliest rev sharing models had the indians giving and the phillies receiving…
when you start breaking it down, i think statheads get annoyed with the standard arguments because there’s a real absence of fact behind them
by royalsreview on
Jan 8, 2009 1:45 PM EST
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excellent point
something to think about:
royals one of the smallest MLB markets, yet…
chiefs (until this season possibly) actually in the top half of revenue producers. They actually net paid into the system under most of the carl peterson era (which is why he had the job for 20 years)
the market isn’t that different between the chiefs and the royals
by ZeppelinDZ on
Jan 8, 2009 1:49 PM EST
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+1, which is part of the reason
Demause (and I grant that the study may h ave been superceded) fond that TV market was a better judge than revenue, since all teams (in baseball) get a big revenue jump when they contend/go to the playoffs. The Chiefs were (raltively) good for a long time before the recent crash, so they generated more revenue in a small market.
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by devil_fingers on
Jan 8, 2009 1:56 PM EST
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yikes
sorry about the horrible typing there
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by devil_fingers on
Jan 8, 2009 1:58 PM EST
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Increased or "progressive" revenue taxes might work
salary caps help in the same way that taxpayer-funded stadiums do — giving the illusion on increasing a team’s ability to compete while lining the pockets of the owners.
Cf. The “Progressive” Era vis-vis Gabriel Kolko, The Triumph of Conservatism
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by devil_fingers on
Jan 8, 2009 2:21 AM EST
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salary caps help in the same way that taxpayer-funded stadiums do — giving the illusion on increasing a team’s ability to compete while lining the pockets of the owners.
If all or at least the vast majority of revenues are fully shared (as they do in the NFL), and the cap amount is tied to an appropriate percentage of those revenues, then you don’t have the illusion of equality and competitiveness. You have the real thing. And you also don’t have owners being unjustly enriched to the detriment of the players. Now, this is true to the extent that revenues are fully shared.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on
Jan 8, 2009 2:30 AM EST
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that makes sense, I think, I'll have to look again in the morning
note to self: avoid eating a full bar of dark chocolate within 30 minutes of trying to go to sleep. Yes, it’s tempting…
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by devil_fingers on
Jan 8, 2009 2:33 AM EST
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I had this debate with Dan at BTF
Economists (like Dan) usually don’t like anything that regulates the free flow of resources. I just don’t think that baseball is merely another widget factory.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on
Jan 8, 2009 2:38 AM EST
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you better take that back about widgets
you completely blew up my world
by ZeppelinDZ on
Jan 8, 2009 10:32 AM EST
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At least he didn't take away our guns and butter
That would be too much to bear.
by jsolo on
Jan 8, 2009 1:06 PM EST
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I don't totally agree with a salary cap but the revenue sharing agreement is a joke.
The Yanks pay 30M, Detroit pays 1M and no one else pays anything?
My fear as these salaries and the Yankees revenue rises is that there is going to be such a huge gap between them that it will effect other forms of the system.
KC spent nearly 12M on the draft last year the most in the league that I know of. What if the Yankees started spending 50M on it? We already know of youth players sending out letters that they won’t sign for under certain amounts. If the Yankees were giving 5-10M to multiple players then the draft system could easily be corrupted not allowing small market teams to compete.
Also similar to this is the overseas market. More and more Japanese players are coming over and producing good results. The posting fees for the elite level talent in Japan is going to make it impossible for small market teams to compete for these players. How many teams were realistically given a shot to compete for Dice-K? Maybe this won’t happen but it is possible.
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by kcscoliny on
Jan 8, 2009 1:30 PM EST
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the joke was the teams that pocketed revenue sharing
and spent nothing back on payroll
by royalsreview on
Jan 8, 2009 1:46 PM EST
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That's right
That’s why Jeffrey Loria = slumlord
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by devil_fingers on
Jan 8, 2009 1:56 PM EST
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thats just the luxury tax
centrally collected revenue is pooled as well, revenue which is collected at a higher rate from larger market teams. The problem is that very little of the overall revenue is actually part of that
by ZeppelinDZ on
Jan 8, 2009 1:46 PM EST
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I guess another way of looking at it would be
the players would have to make a massive concession to accept a salary cap, barring some post-apocalpytpic scenario in which there’s a multi-year strike/lockout, etc
so, what would the owners give up in turn to make it happen?
all I can think of is that we’d go to a free agency from day 1 setup, which at least initially would also give the rich/large market/owners who care teams an advatage, at least for 5 years or so
the other thing that i think would have to be factored in is how you would measure minor league spending… i think it would also be totally possible to have the big market clubs create massive depth advantages just turning their farm teams into a second major league team, which would also give them an annual advantage on the trade market, etc
by royalsreview on
Jan 8, 2009 2:54 AM EST
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But I really don't think we should look at a salary cap as the only option, or even the primary option
If one sees structural inequities and competitive imbalance as a problem that should be addressed, then let’s address it from the revenue side. MLBPA would have no problem with that. Of course some owners would.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on
Jan 8, 2009 3:07 AM EST
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All owners would be against revenue sharing?
What in the world are you talking about? For instance, why would the ten smallest market teams be against revenue sharing? Because they have a philosophical aversion to getting more money?
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on
Jan 8, 2009 3:19 AM EST
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general rule of thumb
salary cap = owners for, players against
rev sharing = poor owners for, rich owners against, players probably indifferent
salary floor/min salary = owners against, players for
free agency = players for, owners against
by ZeppelinDZ on
Jan 8, 2009 10:35 AM EST
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without a discussion of the middle market teams
I don’t really know how to make sense of this. The Braves, Phillies, Cardinals and ChiSox seem to have done well.
"So whattya say, should we clean this place up?" - Tom Cruise
by DyeFan187 on
Jan 8, 2009 3:09 AM EST
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The Braves, Phillies and Chisox are all top 10 market teams
They are fairly large market teams who have done well for many reasons, one significant one being their ability to spend.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on
Jan 8, 2009 3:12 AM EST
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the league only has 30 teams
so top 10 isn’t that exclusive
as i said above, part of what needs to be worked out is what is exactly the problem: just the yankees, just the top 3, just the top 5, just the top 10, just the bottom 5, etc
by royalsreview on
Jan 8, 2009 1:48 PM EST
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I think RR members should invade Pinstripe Alley and begin a similar discussion. I’m being completely serious as well. If we could rile up enough support, it could become a worthwhile (maybe even recurring?) topic over there.
I’m convinced that blog posting holds some, albeit very minimal, relevance in actual MLB. Albeit it tends to move slowly.
Who is with me?
by Royals Nation on
Jan 8, 2009 4:09 AM EST
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Why would we talk to Yankees fans about this?
The imbalance benefits them. And if we can’t persuade the fans of the smallest market team in baseball, how would we convince the fans of the largest market team?
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on
Jan 8, 2009 4:23 AM EST
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We could attempt?
I agree that it’s unfortunate that not all Royals fans (or small market fans) can be persuaded. The key is to attempt. Organize enough RR members to log onto Pinstripe Alley and press the issue vigorously. Make a couple fanposts, and begin a thorough discussion, updating often and factchecking everyone’s opinion.
I think it’s a great idea.
by Royals Nation on
Jan 8, 2009 5:50 AM EST
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Cue the International
Everyone read their copy of What Is To Be Done?
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by devil_fingers on
Jan 8, 2009 11:54 AM EST
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"Is there any hope for the Royals? Beyond a fluke season here and there?"
With a well-run organization, what reason is there to believe a $60-$70 mil payroll cannot be competitive in the AL Central or any other division for that matter? It’s hard to cry about “competitive balance” as measured by payroll expenditure while the Royals toss what money they already have in the toilet, namely $16 mil. on Guillen and Farnsworth in 2009 alone (throw in Crisp and you just passed the 84-win 2008 Marlins payroll).
by RATW on
Jan 8, 2009 12:01 PM EST
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Exactly. I understand that we need to spend money wisely when we do go after FAs, and we need to draft wisely, and develop players from within, and establish a strong farm system. Small market teams like the Royals are expected to grind it out like that, if they want to win, knowing that they cannot afford to make a mistake anywhere along the way! Because if/when they do miss on a draft, or overpay for a FA that doesn’t work out, they will be under the microscope and critized for making bad decisions. Where as you never notice the mistakes that the large market teams make. Because they are still competitive! Regardless of what mistakes are made. Because having a $150 million dollar payroll gives you a huuuuge margin for error.
no outs to go!
by kcdoc85 on
Jan 8, 2009 2:59 PM EST
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you never notice the mistakes that the large market teams make
Brian Sabean likes your thinking.
Of course it gives an added margin of error, but doesn’t preclude a team from fielding a competitive club as the Twins and Indians have done on reasonable budgets in the AL Central.
by RATW on
Jan 8, 2009 3:08 PM EST
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of course, everyone always bows to the NFL
because everything the NFL does is always the best
but what about the NBA? or college football or basketball?
by royalsreview on
Jan 8, 2009 1:36 PM EST
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why not
they’re so superior
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by devil_fingers on
Jan 8, 2009 1:43 PM EST
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Well College Football and basketball doesn't really count because players are slaves.
The NFL rules because of the teams that are allowed to compete. A storied franchise like Green Bay would’ve been run out by the NBA and the MLB.
The NBA system is a good one. If you make a mistake you are punished for it and you can change your fortune with a good draft. If they only had a commissioner who didn’t cater to the big markets. The Pau Gasol trade last year was a joke and never should’ve been allowed. I almost think it is a conspiracy within that league that it was done. How could a GM be that stupid? That should go down as the single most lopsided trade in all of sports at least the Viking thought they were getting a supreme talent. What did the Griz think they were getting?
It takes 46 muscles to frown but only 4 to flip 'em the bird.
by kcscoliny on
Jan 8, 2009 1:47 PM EST
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the NFL rules because there's one game a week
by royalsreview on
Jan 8, 2009 1:48 PM EST
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When the NFL draft gets s 3.3 ratings as opposed to 5.4 for the WS then its more than just one game a week. I would bet that the NFL combine coverage on the NFL Network gets a decent number as opposed to the Sunday night ml game. Obviously the number won’t be the same because ESPN is in so many more households but I bet it is alot closer than you think.
The NFL pretty much pisses on MLB in pretty much every avenue. Production, Future players, marketing, revenue sharing, TV contracts. They really shouldn’t be compared anymore because I think we all know what the real american pasttime is now.
It takes 46 muscles to frown but only 4 to flip 'em the bird.
by kcscoliny on
Jan 8, 2009 2:05 PM EST
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there is certainly a lot going on as to why...
but yes, NFL is simply the more popular sport now
by ZeppelinDZ on
Jan 8, 2009 2:06 PM EST
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I think you meant 8.4 rating (record low last year, in part due to multiple rain delays)
On the national level, the NFL has been more popular than MLB for a long time for, like you said, a variety of reasons. One game a week certainly doesn’t hurt when you are trying to hold national attention as opposed to the regional appeal of MLB.
by RATW on
Jan 8, 2009 3:02 PM EST
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I think footbaaawl is a more popular sport
and it is also a much easier sport to be a casual fan of…
if the salary cap was the real reason the NFL was popular, then we’d see more than 2% of white guys liking the NBA too
by royalsreview on
Jan 8, 2009 3:24 PM EST
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The fact that the NBA...
is a little too close to the WWE is the reason I don’t watch it. It’s a bastardized version of basketball.
by djk royal on
Jan 8, 2009 3:28 PM EST
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The salary cap in the NBA and the NFL are very different
I think the NFL’s financial structure (an extremely high degree of revenue sharing and a hard salary cap) is one of the reasons the NFL is so popular. More accurately, the competitive balance that results from that system is one of the key reasons that the NFL is so popular.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on
Jan 8, 2009 3:39 PM EST
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+100000000
The thing I like about the NFL that probably isn’t fair is the dumping of contracts. It’s not fair to the players but as a fan of the Patriots the last thing I want to see is Tom Brady bleeding them for years if he comes back and stinks. This wouldn’t work in baseball because the Yanks would just clean house and reload but in a balanced system it works. It sucks for players and it totally benefits the owners but who cares Kraft is a Patriots God.
It takes 46 muscles to frown but only 4 to flip 'em the bird.
by kcscoliny on
Jan 8, 2009 3:56 PM EST
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What did the Griz think they were getting?
A proven closer with great stuff who just had some bad luck?
Oh, wait
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by devil_fingers on
Jan 8, 2009 1:57 PM EST
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On what the Grizzlies were getting back, I'd say...
They were getting the guy they were trading aways younger brother who projects to be just as good as his elder brother but fits their contention window as a team better as he’s younger?
Jeff's guide to not looking stupid:
+/- is an absolutely terrible stat, so don't use it, and don't give up on young players before they turn 24.
54!
by joof on
Jan 11, 2009 3:07 AM EST
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I'm late to the party here...
but I figured I’d throw in the two basic rules that I have developed about this sort of discussion:
1. A salary cap is useless without a salary minimum. The Jeffrey Loria’s of the world have firmly established why both would be necessary.
2. Do not point to X number of different teams being in the playoffs or World Series over Y number of years, and then declare that proof of the fact that competitive balance isn’t an issue. You’re using final results to prove the existence of a fair start. I will use my 100 meter race example. There are 30 competitors. My friend Theo and I will start the race on Segways with a 20-meter head start. The next eight guys will get the best track shoes, Olympic-quality rubberized lanes, starting blocks, and a 10-meter head start. Runners 11-20 will run barefoot in dirt lanes that will be hosed down with water right before the start. Runners 21-30 will have one arm tied behind their backs and will run the race wearing flippers. We will race 162 times and see who wins the most races. Regardless of the eventual results, do you think the start is fair?
"Quit trying to strike everybody out. Strikeouts are boring...besides that they're fascist. Throw some groundballs. It's more democratic."
by Sweep_the_Leg on
Jan 8, 2009 3:57 PM EST
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2 Is hilarious I can picture it reminds me of something Monty Python would do
It takes 46 muscles to frown but only 4 to flip 'em the bird.
by kcscoliny on
Jan 8, 2009 4:00 PM EST
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technically, baseball has a salary floor
25 x $390,000 (or there abouts)
by ZeppelinDZ on
Jan 8, 2009 4:24 PM EST
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Along with 2
if that’s a good point, then we should probably stop using that measure to prove that the system isn’t working, either
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by devil_fingers on
Jan 8, 2009 4:50 PM EST
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Absolutely
My point is that measuring the fairness of any system by simply going to the end results, especially when everyone agrees that there are a LOT more variables than available payroll dollars, is an illogical and flawed means of looking at it. What everyone should be focused on (regardless of where you fall in the debate) is where each team starts. You don’t have to look to results to argue (convincingly) that a system is unfair from the start. The initial unfairness speaks for itself.
"Quit trying to strike everybody out. Strikeouts are boring...besides that they're fascist. Throw some groundballs. It's more democratic."
by Sweep_the_Leg on
Jan 8, 2009 5:09 PM EST
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The solution to all of this
Well, not a solution, but something that needs to be changed:
Set a slotting structure for draft picks, and allow draft picks to be traded (both the slots themselves, and the players immediately after being picked).
by Top Ramen on
Jan 8, 2009 5:24 PM EST
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slotting probably would increase parity
but again, at the cost of reducing a player’s financial rights
by ZeppelinDZ on
Jan 8, 2009 5:38 PM EST
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Just out of interest
what is the salary of a minor leaguer? I guess it varies by level, anyone know?
by kcbottom9th on
Jan 8, 2009 5:53 PM EST
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I thought others would be on this
I think that, other than signing bonuses, it’s $30,000/yr + a per diem when they are on the road, but I’m sure doublestix, Retro, NYRoyal or someone knows better than I.
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by devil_fingers on
Jan 8, 2009 5:59 PM EST
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or me
or someone with a 5th grade education who can keep subjective and objective cases straight
now I’m just confused
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by devil_fingers on
Jan 8, 2009 6:00 PM EST
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Something like that
I’ve read a couple people at BP getting asked that question and they really weren’t sure. Something like $35K in AAA.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on
Jan 8, 2009 6:59 PM EST
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i've seen it somewhere
i’ll try and find it again. don’t know for sure.
Founder of the Johnny Giavotella fan club.
by doublestix on
Jan 8, 2009 6:13 PM EST
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Doug Pappas
OK, a 30 second series of searches hasn’t revealed to me his full proposal, and heck, you know me, if I can’t do it in 30 seconds in Google, Excel, or MySql, it isn’t worth doing.
Anyway, the late Doug Pappas had an idea that DeMause mentions at the end of his article, but unlike other ideas, he doesn’t say why it wouldn’t work. So I’ll just quote how DeMause describes it. Fro p233 of his article, “Does Baseball Need a Salary Cap?” in Baseball Between the Numbers:
In 2002, Baseball Prospectus’s Doug Pappas suggested s simple progressive revenue-sharing rate, where teams would keep all their revenue up to 80 percent of league average, then pay a graduated rate scaling up to 75 percent for revenue over double the league average."
Thoughts? I thought this might be more productive than me getting into silly silly slapfests with others users (all of whom I really like) and stuff. There are other ideas, like Woolner’s “market size” tax combined with win improvement, but they have problems (tanking in order to improve the next years improvement numbers).
DeMause doesn’t get into the problems with Pappas’s idea, and I’m too dumb to know what they might me, but it sounds good, at least initially, to me…
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by devil_fingers on
Jan 8, 2009 5:59 PM EST
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Nice idea
I’d have to crunch some numbers to see what that would really mean in terms of leveling the playing field to see if I thought it was sufficient. At this point I’d support anything that increases revenue sharing.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on
Jan 8, 2009 7:02 PM EST
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There are other ways to help small market teams compete while leaving the money the same.
1. Give the small market teams more draft picks (allow type A and B free agents to be declined arbitration by small market clubs, yet they still get a sandwich pick for example)
2. Allow small market teams to have a larger roster.
3. Allow small market team to field 10 players.
4. Allow small market teams to use metal bats (should help with free agents!!)
5. Only allow small market teams to go over slot.
6. Have a world wide draft.
7. List is more or less endless, but revenue sharing and taxes and salary caps don’t have to be the only answers, just let the smaller market clubs cheat more, just like the draft now that allows lower performing teams to draft higher.
Go Royals!
by BabyBlues on
Jan 9, 2009 1:04 AM EST
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I would suggest
1. Movable fences. When a small market team comes to bat, the fences move in 15 feet. When the large market team comes up to bat, the fences move back 15 feet.
2. Adjustable pitcher’s mound. When a small market team is in the field, the mound goes up to 25 inches. When a large market team is in the field, the pitcher must pitch out of a hole.
3. Different baseballs. When a small market team is is batting, they get to hit a juiced ball. When a large market team is batting, they hit a soft, mushy ball.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on
Jan 9, 2009 2:01 AM EST
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