Hillman: People don’t want to take the time to learn. It’s challenging because most of the time, ou...

Hillman: People don’t want to take the time to learn.

It’s challenging because most of the time, our local media and even our fan base, they don’t want to hear about the process. They don’t want to be educated on the process. But it is a process. ...People don’t want to take the time to learn, because we’re not bred that way, culturally. It was an easier sell in the other culture, in Japan, because they’re very used to processes. And they don’t care how long it takes, as long as you get it set to last.

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Process

Process. Process. Process. Process. Process. Process. Process. Process. Process. Process. Process. Process. Process. Process. Process. Process. Process. Process. Process. Process. Process. Process. Process. Process. Process. Process. Process. Process. Process. Process. Process. Process. Process. Process. Process. Process. Process. Process. Process. Process.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Oct 7, 2009 10:01 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I'm sorry

but my culturally bred disinclination to learn prevented me from following all that. Can you possibly summarize?

by 2X2L on Oct 7, 2009 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Did someone ever mention to Trey

that we won WW2 and Japan has been in an economic slump for 20 years? Maybe imitating their processes is not a good idea.

by hunter s. royal on Oct 7, 2009 11:02 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

unbelievable

Thanks for moving this to its own fanshot…it is so outrageous, I agree it deserves more attention.

This is the first thing I have seen from management that actually made me very angry, not just disappointed or sad. It’s so insulting and just plain wrong.

So the problem, Trey, is that we are too ignorant or stupid to care enough to take the time to find out how the organization operates and what the organization is trying to do in order to win…huh?

Actually, the problem is that many of us care enough to notice how successful organizations operate. We see them doing things that are almost the opposite of how the Royals operate. We make note (as you should) of what other teams do that works as opposed to blindly offering our unconditional support of “processes” that are fundamentally flawed. So, no, we’re not going to support a “process” that appears destined to be unsuccessful, if it continues to operate as it has for the last few years.

And somehow, I don’t think Japanese fans would, either.

by cookierojas73 on Oct 7, 2009 1:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

If this was Japan

The fans would have asked Trey to perform Seppuku by now.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Oct 7, 2009 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not gonna happen

That would be some form of accountability, which Moore and Hillman have shown no signs of recognizing.

If you look closely, it really says "CentralChamps2012."

by CentralChamps2009 on Oct 7, 2009 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I can believe

that Trey believes this. After all, he needs to tell himself something to counter the disapprobation that even he must have become aware of by now. (Davidoff: “I think Hillman will eventually prove himself to be a good big-league manager.” Says more about what Hillman has proved to date than it says about the future, doesn’t it?) And Moore provided this handy line of thought to his organization as an amulet to ward off criticism, going on record regarding fans’ interest in instant gratification and nothing else and no doubt expanding on those thoughts in private. Essentially: “They’re just not capable of appreciating us.” Whatever.

What I’m still coming to terms with is that Hillman is actually stupid enough to say this to a reporter.

Hey Trey, can you think of anything else to say that might alienate longsuffering Royals fans? Might as well get it all out now.

by 2X2L on Oct 7, 2009 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

"I think barbecue is disgusting"

That would just about do it.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Oct 7, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Won't happen

For all his faults, Trey IS a Texan, and is thus genetically incapable of disliking barbecue.

This space for rent.

by jonfmorse on Oct 8, 2009 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You are completely off base.

He is explaining to you why people don’t understand what the KC Royals are trying to do. You are looking to deep into this.

Trey said because people want everything now and don’t want to work for anything, that they need it handed to them rather then discovering it for themselves, they won’t do it. They’d rather complain and nag and have a bad attitude than look at the answer.

In Japan, they’ve been taught that if something is worth knowing and being a part of, it takes hard work.

My best example that I can think of is the freshman and their school board parent. Coach, why am I not getting any varsity playing time? Because there are better players in front of you, because you don’t work hard in practice, and you haven’t proved that you can do anything for the team at that level. Parents: I want a meeting with the AD and school board. We’re getting you fired.

Coffee. The NEW Performance Enhancing drug for Sport's Writers. Just ask Ken Rosenthal.

by 306008 on Oct 7, 2009 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

From where I'm standing

it looks like you just got doubled off base by Trey “Rag Arm” Hillman. You and Granderson, after practice, will run the bleachers up and down until I remember to tell you to stop.

by 2X2L on Oct 7, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It seems like Trey & Dayton

are the ones that don’t get it. They’ve been mediocre at best so far, and are reacting by insulting everyone possible. They seem like the spoiled children to me.

by hunter s. royal on Oct 7, 2009 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

WHAT THE FUCK!!!

Apparently Im just not smart enough but this “Process” does not seem to have any rhyme or reason.

Desperately hoping for Desperate Measures

by averagegatsby on Oct 7, 2009 3:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

nor does it seem to be working.

Don't Stop Believing!

by KC Chris on Oct 9, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Lol...

He’s talking about you guys. Come on. Don’t you get it? You’re cultural upbringing and need for instant gratification is blocking your vision of this. He is exactly right.

You might not like it and just make fun of it, but what Trey said up there is 100% correct.

Coffee. The NEW Performance Enhancing drug for Sport's Writers. Just ask Ken Rosenthal.

by 306008 on Oct 7, 2009 3:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Even though I agree with what Hillman said

That doesn’t mean I think he’s the greatest manager.

Look at his statement. Open your mind.

Coffee. The NEW Performance Enhancing drug for Sport's Writers. Just ask Ken Rosenthal.

by 306008 on Oct 7, 2009 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I've been waiting for 15 years

nothing instant about that.

Here’s a process for Trey to understand

Keeping/acquiring good players requires money
Money comes from the ownership
Ownership gets a lot of their money from loyal fans
Loyal fans refusing to support Trey leads to there being less money
Insulting your fanbase repeatedly leads to them not coming out to the stadium
Insulting your fanbase is a negative and not a positive.

Hoping that the Tigers fire Leyland and steal Trey Hillman from the Royals

by BHWick on Oct 7, 2009 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I've been waiting just as long.

Trey sucks as a manager. We know this. But I’m talking about the comments he made. His explanation of the “american way” is dead on.

Coffee. The NEW Performance Enhancing drug for Sport's Writers. Just ask Ken Rosenthal.

by 306008 on Oct 7, 2009 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If you can tell me what “this” is, I’ll listen. Go ahead.

by 2X2L on Oct 7, 2009 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

this refers to his comments...

Coffee. The NEW Performance Enhancing drug for Sport's Writers. Just ask Ken Rosenthal.

by 306008 on Oct 7, 2009 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes, and according to you my vision of them is "blocked"

so that won’t help. Let’s presume you’re right. Can you help me understand or will I ultimately be deterred by my unwillingness to learn? I promise to try, if you think it’s worthwhile to offer me a fuller explanation.

Note that Trey says nothing about what the process is, other than it’s a process. You have any insight into that?

by 2X2L on Oct 7, 2009 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I love your response and I appreciate your willingness to open your mind.

Trey is talking about nothing to do with baseball. He is talking about people. He is talking about our fundamental beliefs. He is talking about relationships.

Whether or not Trey is a good manager or the process is the right process is not at discussion here. What he is discussing is people. Trey stated that most people don’t want to take the time to look at this the whole way through. He’s describing 75% of the American public. I think this is clear so far.

What’s the American way? Have a great career, family, and everything in between. People refer to it as the American dream. You hear people in other countries talk about moving to America and living the American way. The whole religion of Islam (or the radical Islam component) is against this American way.

It’s kind of hard to explain if you don’t take Trey as a person, and not one of the worst managers in the game. If that was something one of our “great” Americans would have said, we’d treasure it. I’m talking about Lincoln or Washington or someone to that nature.

Trey is expressing frustration first. He is annoyed that our media and the people that talk to him always ask about this but immediately try to shoot everything down or twist it in some other way. And as we all understand and know, this is what the media does and is very good at it. He’s frustrated that the fan base doesn’t know what is going on behind the scenes and that when he tries to explain, instead of listening, they grip, yell, say it’s wrong, and flip out. For example, the multiple number of "process"es being copy and pasted at the top of this page.

In closing, I believe Trey is challenging us as Royals fans. He is challenging us as men leading our families and as women (the few who are here) raising our children right. Trey is not talking about baseball. He’s talking about the roots of our nation and our society as a whole. He’s talking about the values of our Nation going down hill and about the viewpoint of our children. He’s talking about the feeling of our youth as a whole. And the greatest point he makes is his comparison to Japan. He talks about how the Japanese children are raised and how they value authority and understand how to build on things. He’s talking about how they take pride in what they do and how they instill values into their children.

Now, I know that these things exist in the US. They have just slowly started disappearing with the apathy of our nation. Maybe you don’t understand this like I do, but I hope you can step back, release the tension, and think about his comments in an open frame of mind. Look at it as if If you can, you’ll look at the value of the words he spoke. You will realize that what he’s talking about is not baseball.

I hope that helps a little…

Coffee. The NEW Performance Enhancing drug for Sport's Writers. Just ask Ken Rosenthal.

by 306008 on Oct 7, 2009 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Trey's view of America is bunk

and here’s how I know (as well as something you as an American should be very proud of): our culture produces the very best creative problem-solvers on the planet. They excel where the work requires insight, intuition, broad knowledge, a willingness to define, a willingness to nitpick, a willingness to experiment, a willingness to play, a willingness to reject experience that fails to apply, a commitment to observe and measure results, the courage to throw something away and start over.

I know this is true, because this is all required for my job, and why the most highly valued and widely used software in the world is produced right here in the U.S.A.

In my view, what Trey says about Americans is just plain wrong. Not everyone has the abilities and tolerances I mentioned above, and that’s not the point. But the culture produces such people — and not just people who fit the description but the very best of them — cannot be the culture Trey described. What he said is bunk.

by 2X2L on Oct 7, 2009 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs

Also

what I perceive that Trey implicitly values about Japanese culture as he understands is is not at all a tendency toward learning or patience but a tendency toward deference to authority (however deep it runs), which, beyond some limit I’m not smart enough to pinpoint, can become as much a barrier to understanding as apathy is. “I don’t care” and “I don’t have to care because it’s up to you” are not so different in effect, are they?

Anyway, it’s not apathy that has Trey’s pants in a twist. He’s the wrong guy for the Show Me state, is all I can say.

by 2X2L on Oct 7, 2009 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

Got to point out that I work with great engineers from other parts of the world, too. Our culture certainly hasn’t got a monopoly on producing them.

Anyway, it might be clear already that you and I won’t see eye-to-eye on the veneration of authority in the development of active minds. My view, and it’s by no means an original one, is that an appropriate degree of independence of mind is crucial. But enough said of that — and the advantages it affords — already.

by 2X2L on Oct 7, 2009 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You're giving Trey way too much credit.

I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.

by Warden11 on Oct 7, 2009 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs

Yes

Three years into “the process” is “instant gratification.”

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Oct 7, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

yeah, but they haven't lost 100 since 2006!

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by devil_fingers on Oct 7, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think you're mistaken

Many fans here do understand that rebuilding a baseball team is a process and are willing to wait for it to happen. These fans are so invested in the process that they follow every move that the team is doing and, sadly, have evaluated that the moves the team is making have a backward trajectory. And that evaluation is not reliant on the record of the big-league team. Fans of the Kansas City Royals have tons of patience. It’s been 24 years since the team made the playoffs. Anyone who is still a fan is willing to wait for success, there has just been little indication that Moore (and certainly not Hillman) will provide it. The “Process” is a smokescreen to keep people from noticing that these guys are in over their heads.

by BrRoyal on Oct 7, 2009 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Another comparision I made earlier this year was Gary Pinkel

He used the term as well. When I took over we sucked… yadadada… now we’ve followed the process we believed in and we’re a top 25 team…

Every team follows a process. What the Royals is hasn’t been completely revealed. Or has it? Have we just missed it?

Coffee. The NEW Performance Enhancing drug for Sport's Writers. Just ask Ken Rosenthal.

by 306008 on Oct 7, 2009 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I would buy into the idea that Moore (not Hillman) could see this rebuild through with his process. . .

If he ever seemed the least bit aware that he’s made any mistakes. It is our inability to admit our mistakes that hampers our growth.

by BrRoyal on Oct 7, 2009 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And right here, you point out the flaw in the entire position.

…they don’t want to hear about the process. They don’t want to be educated on the process. But it is a process. …People don’t want to take the time to learn…

Well, if the process hasn’t been revealed, then… WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT, TREY?

And the process hasn’t been revealed, at least not in any sense which actually mirrors the moves the team has chosen to make. We hear about OBP, and then Moore signs OBP sinkholes. We hear about fundamentals, and then Trey trots guys out there who have none. The only part of this process that is clear to the fanbase and which the team seems to be following is rebuilding the minors; everything else is a pile of horseshit, and accusing US of being unwilling to LEARN…

Oh, yeah. Think about that one. The management team that has decreed that defensive statistics are too complicated to figure out is now chastising US for being unwilling to learn.

You’re defending this insulting, hypocritical pablum as being “true”? Really? Really?

This space for rent.

by jonfmorse on Oct 8, 2009 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs

If I understand him correctly

Trey’s comments about the culture hold water for him. The baseball stuff, not so much.

by 2X2L on Oct 9, 2009 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

But that's not a comment about baseball.

That’s a comment about our willingness to be educated.

This space for rent.

by jonfmorse on Oct 9, 2009 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes, it was. And I shouldn’t have attempted to represent his position . 306008’s postings appear to me to make a separation between the nominal subject (Royals and process and baseball and whatnot) and the underlying substance (the state of the culture), and that’s what I was trying to get at. But I guess I’m not clear enough on what the division is to describe it usefully — I casually named the one “baseball”, whereas 306008 called the other “fundamental beliefs”.

by 2X2L on Oct 9, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I guess what I'm trying to say

is that although you see your comment (as I and many others would) as dealing with the substance, 306008 apparently views the prevailing rejection of Hillman’s comments here as a validation of them. So, the common ground for debating them may be difficult to locate.

by 2X2L on Oct 9, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

"The management team that has decreed that defensive statistics are too complicated to figure out is now chastising US for being unwilling to learn."

Ha! Great point.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Oct 9, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

"And they don’t care how long it takes, as long as you get it set to last."

So what happens if they don’t get it “set to last”?

Unless I'm wrong...
My Twitter feed

by Top Ramen on Oct 7, 2009 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

seems like the Royals have been "set to last" almost every season for a long time

I guess not in 2008

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by devil_fingers on Oct 7, 2009 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

Hoping that the Tigers fire Leyland and steal Trey Hillman from the Royals

by BHWick on Oct 7, 2009 3:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

That is just all kinds of wrong

Of course we want to hear about the process.

First, Trey says that he doesn’t have time to educate. Now, it’s us (media and fans) that don’t want to be educated. If you want us to take the time to learn, you have to make the time to teach.

It would help if they (the Royals FO) would actually pick a plan and stick with it. After last year, Dayton spoke with JoPo about the importance of OBP, and how we (as a team) had to improve. He then goes out and acquires 2 players with very bad OBP skills (Jacobs and Bloomy). To be fair, he did also add Crisp (.331 career OBP isn’t out of this world but better than the other 2). So, what are we supposed to take out of this 1-step forward/2-steps back approach? Then, to cap things off, GMDM went and got the worst position player in the AL in terms of OBP in Betancourt. Seriously – among qualifying players (requires 3.1 plate appearances per team game), Betancourt is LAST (75th) in OBP, and he’s not close to 74th. Bloomy, with 30-40 more PAs, would rank in the 70’s. Jacobs, with about 25 more PAs, would rank just ahead of the current #74.

I’ve also read about “accountability” and the Royals. If you’ve read a couple of my comments in recent game threads you know where I’m going with this – I apologize if this is already getting old. I’m still a little ticked off at that Josh Anderson bunt play where he popped it up and didn’t run – easy double play. He remained in the game and started the next day. By way of contrast, I was watching an Angels game in late September. An Angels batter (I think it was either Howie Kendrick or Kendry Morales – I get them confused!) hit a ball that he thought was gone – Started his home run trot – Was only halfway to 1st when the ball hit the wall – Had to turn it on and barely made to second safely. Mike Scioscia immediately pulled him from the game (and I mean “immediately” – dude wasn’t even finished brushing the dirt off his uni). You can bet that a message was delivered and received, and everyone watching knew it. One of the above managers actually holds his players accountable; the other one doesn’t.

In conclusion, I don’t think that anybody really knows what the “process” is supposed to be, because words and actions don’t match up.

Tension is the enemy. - Charlie Lau

by aHorseWithNoName on Oct 7, 2009 5:02 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs

So you think this is like the youth movement we had? This is phase 2 of the youth movement.

(Cliff Lee.. .glad he isn’t in the AL Central anymore) I don’t think Trey is the guy. I think there is very little accountability. But I understand the comments made by Trey above. Look at it from his point of view.

Coffee. The NEW Performance Enhancing drug for Sport's Writers. Just ask Ken Rosenthal.

by 306008 on Oct 7, 2009 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm trying.

Look at it from his point of view

Only thing I can come up with is he’s tired of being questioned on his ass-backward managing and the organization’s poor performance. His comments sound like someone backed into a corner and rationalizing shitty performance.

I really don’t get how Royals fans can be painted as an “instant gratification” crowd.

I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.

by Warden11 on Oct 7, 2009 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He is tired of being questioned.

He does stink as a manager. I don’t think he’s rationalizing or he backed into a corner though. I think he’s having an epiphany. (maybe he’ll ask to be reassigned?)

Coffee. The NEW Performance Enhancing drug for Sport's Writers. Just ask Ken Rosenthal.

by 306008 on Oct 7, 2009 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs