Here's something odd: Billy Butler's Mystery Pitching Performance

by loyal2sdad on Oct 9, 2009 3:42 PM EDT Comment 40 comments

I recently was browsing thru Billy Butler's minor league stats on baseball-reference.com and noticed that Butler has 4.1 innings of pitching (1 game) on his resume from 2004 in rookie league ball. I thought that was very odd, for many reasons, not the least of which was it obviously not a "mop up" in a blowout, since he allegedly faced 25 batters. I then did some research, and found that Billy Buckner was on the same team that year, and thought to myself - well, that's an easy explanation: the boxscore simply was misrecorded or something. In addition, I really doubt the Royals would have approved of using a #1 draft pick in an emergency "mop up in a blowout" role in the first place - surely that job would fall to a lesser talent, right? Also have never heard anyone mention this before - and as much as we all followed Billy's progress, surely somebody would have asked if it were true, right?

Anyway, I emailed baseball-reference and asked about it; got a response today in which they said they think it is true, because they cross referenced with several other sources, including Baseball Cube, Baseball Almanac, etc.), and claim that all of these sources they cross referenced do not "work from the same dataset", in their words.

Doesn't sound like very stellar research on their part at all, IMHO. I assume they all get their info from some official boxscore or something, and most likely said boxscore is the source of this error in the first place.

Anyway, I'd thought I'd ask the people who know the Royals the best (RR community): Has anybody ever heard of Butler pitching a game in the minors? Does it seem as unlikely to you as it does to me?

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I'm with you

I could MAYBE see pitching to a batter or 2 – but 25?!? I find that very unlikely for any position player. Even if he was very economical with his pitches, that would have to be over 60 (probably more than 80) pitches from a guy that never pitched before (at least not professionally).

Maybe Billy will do one of those chats on the official site, and someone can submit a question about this.

Tension is the enemy. - Charlie Lau

by aHorseWithNoName on Oct 9, 2009 4:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=butler001bil#standard_pitching

by royalsreview on Oct 9, 2009 4:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

according to this butler was a pitcher in HS

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4179/is_20040608/ai_n11814864/

Butler also posted a 9-1 record with a 1.80 ERA as Wolfson’s No. 2 pitcher behind Hurley, who was drafted with the No. 30 pick in the first round by the Texas Rangers. Butler was the losing pitcher in the Florida state championship game after Hurley pitched in the semifinals.

But the Royals weren’t interested in Butler’s arm. They dealt with that issue with their next four picks, all pitchers.

by royalsreview on Oct 9, 2009 4:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Well

I LEARNED something new today. Thanks for taking the time to educate me!

Take that Trey!

Tension is the enemy. - Charlie Lau

by aHorseWithNoName on Oct 9, 2009 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

nothing in this DK article from 2004 about BB pitching

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20040930&content_id=876979&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=null

by royalsreview on Oct 9, 2009 4:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

In other Billy Butler news...

…a little boy at the bookstore today told me he was going to be Billy Butler for Halloween. That was pretty awesome.

by Gross(est) on Oct 9, 2009 5:02 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs

Rec'd

That is so awesome.

WTF, self?

by minda33 on Oct 9, 2009 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Did you buy him a Baconator?

You know, for costume accuracy’s sake…

This space for rent.

by jonfmorse on Oct 9, 2009 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Update

Searched the Idaho Falls Chukars website; their stat database online only goes back to 2005, so I emailed them to see if they could lend any insight to this topic.

Will post response from them (if they send one)

Mr Glass, this is a pro sports team, not a retail store - run it like one!

by loyal2sdad on Oct 9, 2009 5:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

i have a feeling that if this doesn't get corrected relatively soon...

that it will eventually enter into history

by royalsreview on Oct 9, 2009 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That touches on my (bigger) point:

retrosheet.org came along to correct errors in the major league record – but how much effort really goes into assuring minor league records are accurate? (Still not sure why I care this much – I guess it’s the accountant in me – I just can’t help it)

Mr Glass, this is a pro sports team, not a retail store - run it like one!

by loyal2sdad on Oct 9, 2009 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Butler in Sports Illustrated today (Letters section)

Headline: The Butler’s Doing It

“For your team of under-the-radar All-Stars, your first baseman should have been the Royals’ Billy Butler. the 23-year-old hit .301, with 21 homers and 93 RBIs. Plus, he fields his position like a Gold Glover.” — Max R. Moore, Bellevue, Nebraska

by andrewmiller on Oct 9, 2009 8:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I would just like to take this opportunity

to state that I party like a millionare celebutante. I also cook like a world-famous chef and write like a Nobel Laureate.

This space for rent.

by jonfmorse on Oct 9, 2009 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

Fields like a gold glover...

if that gold glover is Derek Jeter 4 years ago, Michael Young, or Nate McClouth.

Desperately hoping for Desperate Measures

by averagegatsby on Oct 9, 2009 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

well, if all the other teams have to play Jacobs at first...

Go Royals!

by BabyBlues on Oct 9, 2009 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe a copper glover?

by Olentangy on Oct 9, 2009 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Steel

by BrRoyal on Oct 10, 2009 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Crazy

isnt it weird how some guys wish they made their HS team and other guys can hit and pitch at a very high level…seems unfair.

by ZachMartin2 on Oct 9, 2009 11:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

see joe mauer #1 pick in baseball...

number 1 hs fb recruit…qb committed to FSU…dating Miss America…

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Oct 9, 2009 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Carl Crawford...

Was offered a basketball scholarship to UCLA, was offered Football Scholarships to Nebraska, Tulsa, Florida (and someone else Im forgetting). And turned them all down to play baseball out of high school.

Desperately hoping for Desperate Measures

by averagegatsby on Oct 10, 2009 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

also USC and Oklahoma for football

Desperately hoping for Desperate Measures

by averagegatsby on Oct 10, 2009 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Kenny Lofton

never played baseball until his junior year of college. He was a point guard and played in the Final Four. Unbelieveable and impressive. Hall of Famer baseball player never played ball until he was about 20 years old.

Countless other guys like Brett Favre and Grady Sizemore

by Royal from Queens on Oct 10, 2009 1:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

is lofton a HOFer?

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Oct 10, 2009 1:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

first hunch is to say no

by royalsreview on Oct 10, 2009 2:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=3524

An excellent leadoff hitter with a career .372 OBP and 545 steals, itinerant outfielder Kenny Lofton’s motto these days seems to be “Have pennant race, will travel.” That doesn’t take away from his six All-Star appearances, four Gold Gloves, and knack for finding playing time in October. He’s headed to his ninth postseason this fall with his fifth team, his fourth in four years. As for his Cooperstown case, he’s well below the average Hall of Fame center fielder, though he would rate higher than a handful of them, including Max Carey (66.4), Earl Averill (62.1), Larry Doby (60.4 in a career abbreviated by the color line), Hack Wilson (52.5), Lloyd Waner (46.0) and Earle Combs (45.2).

by royalsreview on Oct 10, 2009 2:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's not the point

My point wasn’t to argue whether or not Kenny Lofton, it was to demonstrate how awesome he is in that he never played up until junior year in college and still made an impact in the sport.

by Royal from Queens on Oct 10, 2009 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Reminds me of this article from the onion

Kenny Lofton Thinks He’s Putting Finishing Touches On Hall Of Fame Career

by swing and a miss on Oct 10, 2009 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah..he was supposed to be an option qb..

that wouldvebeen nuts

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Oct 10, 2009 1:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

my favorite Onion baseball article is this one

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/49108

Desperately hoping for Desperate Measures

by averagegatsby on Oct 10, 2009 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think it's that weird.

World class athletes are world class athletes.

I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.

by Warden11 on Oct 10, 2009 12:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Like John Kruk and Matt Stairs

by BrRoyal on Oct 10, 2009 9:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

world class swimmers?

figure skaters?

"Things could always be worse." - Buddy Bell

by buddyball on Oct 10, 2009 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

This may clear things up

http://web.archive.org/web/20040820062336/http://ifchukars.com/index.cfm?ID=532
this says Buckner pitched that game

by Bauman before Bonds on Oct 10, 2009 12:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

wow...

thank you

by royalsreview on Oct 10, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

howesportsdata.com has minor league day-by-day info

showing that buckner pitched august 6 and august 19, while butler supposedly pitched august 12, so that would fall right in line

by Bauman before Bonds on Oct 10, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I guess baseball-reference didn't use THAT dataset

Kansas City Royals: your 2006 and 2007 NL Central champions!

by mazoboom on Oct 10, 2009 8:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Farnsworth has had some mysterious pitching performances too

I might add.

StonewallPDS

by StonewallPDS on Oct 10, 2009 12:44 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs

Good thing its not his stat line from that game,

cuz if it was, he sure is no TPJ.

by play4'ships on Oct 11, 2009 2:30 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Received email back from Chukars officials;

they acknowledge that the 8/12 pitching appearance was mistakenly credited to Billy Butler instead of Billy Buckner.

Forwarded email on to baseball-reference. Will be interested to see if they actually correct this error or not.

Anyway, we have done all we can.

Mr Glass, this is a pro sports team, not a retail store - run it like one!

by loyal2sdad on Oct 13, 2009 10:48 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs

Another update (email received from SABR)

Without boring you with unnecessary detail, the problem is that in
2004, no reliable minor league statistics exist. Howe (now part of
STATS) was the official statistician through 2003, but — for reasons
I don’t fully understand myself — a different vendor was selected for
2004. To say the least, they made a botch of the statistics. However,
nobody has been forthcoming as far as making public a correct set of
statistics. I found the reference to “looking on BAM” interesting,
since, publicly at least, the claim is no such records exist for 2004,
all having been destroyed. (A claim I have never believed.) The
problem, at its root, is political. Howe always did a good job in
compiling the stats, and when the vendor was changed and the results
were disastrous, well, that was an embarrassment to some people.

With regards to 2004 statistics, at one point we considered simply
refusing to publish 2004 statistics, replacing them with a disclaimer
that “nobody compiled reliable statistics for this season.” We decided
that would be unduly petulant, so we published the best “official” set
we could find, even though we know that most of them are inaccurate,
wildly in some cases. We do collect notes like the one you’ve sent
along, but, given our limited resources as a volunteer organization,
it is extremely unlikely we will revisit the 2004 mess unless and
until someone is willing to be forthcoming with complete raw data.

Ted

Mr Glass, this is a pro sports team, not a retail store - run it like one!

by loyal2sdad on Oct 13, 2009 5:21 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs