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"David DeJesus had our best zone rating," Bannister said, referring to the Royals’ left fielder. "So a lot of times, Zack would pitch for a fly ball at our park instead of a ground ball, just because the zone rating was better in our outfield and it was a big park."

To that end, Bannister introduced Greinke to FIP, or Fielding Independent Pitching, the statistic Greinke named Tuesday as his favorite. It is a formula that measures how well a pitcher performed, regardless of his fielders. According to fangraphs.com, Greinke had the best FIP in the majors.

"That’s pretty much how I pitch, to try to keep my FIP as low as possible," Greinke said.

about 2 years ago Tiny swing and a miss 71 comments 3 recs  | 

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Ahh . . . the added benefits of employing Brian Bannister

It is so great Greinke pitches for FIP and understands it. It is fantastic that Bannister is getting the Royals players to buy into more advanced stats.

But that creates an interesting dynamic: are our players getting to be smarter than our GM? Or more specifically, is Bannister? Intriguing idea.

by Eppenweb on Nov 17, 2009 9:54 PM EST reply actions  

first of all...

do we really believe that telling zack that strikeouts are good and walks and homers are bad really helped his pitching? Those are the elements that going into determining FIP…but that shits obvious. Even trey knows that stuff.

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Nov 17, 2009 10:21 PM EST up reply actions  

If it counters the "pitch to contact"

BS that Hochevar picked up from somewhere in the org post-draft, than yes.

by kcbottom9th on Nov 17, 2009 10:25 PM EST up reply actions  

No, it goes way beyond that

I mean, he pitched to get flyballs instead of groundballs, where a pitcher who didn’t know about zone rating might have gone for groundballs since they go for home runs less. But in KC’s case that actually would’ve allowed more runs, so he went with flyballs.

by Bornin85 on Nov 18, 2009 9:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Taking this a step further

July 22: Jose Guillen goes down with an essentially season ending injury—> Royals outfield improves nearly simultaneous to Yuniesky’s arrival dragging down the infield defense—> Zack’s 1st half GB/FB = 1.12, Zack’s second half GB/FB = 0.78.

by swing and a miss on Nov 20, 2009 2:38 AM EST up reply actions  

I think it's implied

Bannister said, “Zone rating outfield > zone rating infield”, but I read it as “We’re very scared of letting batted balls go to the infield, as a rotation.”

by Bornin85 on Nov 18, 2009 9:17 AM EST up reply actions  

Brian Bannister: Player/Manager

It’d be a huge improvement…

"I've seen the future and it's much like the present only longer." - Dan Quisenberry

by Safe@First on Nov 18, 2009 10:06 AM EST reply actions  

Could he handle Player/Manager/GM?

"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae

"I was doing this when BJ was in his father's nutsack." -Renzo Gracie

by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 18, 2009 10:24 AM EST up reply actions  

Interestingly

His home run rates plummeted this year, a big part of his success. So somehow he was getting flyballs, but keeping them in the park.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Nov 18, 2009 11:45 AM EST reply actions  

It'd be interesting

to see if the data correlates with what they’re saying. I’m too lazy to actually do it, just saying it would be interesting if I were to.

by Bornin85 on Nov 18, 2009 11:46 AM EST up reply actions  

Nevermind

I’m not nearly as lazy as I supposed…

Here’s the data:

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1943&position=P#battedball

His GB/FB was 0.99 for 2009, compared to 1.11 for 2008, which I suppose is really his only other comparable year? I guess he came close to 200 innings in 2005, and his GB/FB was 1.05

…so…

not being terribly experienced with these numbers, I’m not sure if that’s a dramatic difference or not?

by Bornin85 on Nov 18, 2009 12:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe

You can’t really use the idea of statistical significance that way, though. It’s meant for formal/controlled studies.

Twitter: awolfson0

by awolfson on Nov 19, 2009 5:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm sorry I'm not being scientific enough for you.

If you use a regression analysis I’m guessing the difference can’t be explained away by luck, therefore it is probably somewhat significant. Good enough for you now?

by AxDxMx on Nov 19, 2009 6:48 PM EST up reply actions  

It's well documented that Bannister loves xFIP

but Zack appears to prefer FIP, so I’m thinking that he believes he has some control over whether a fly ball goes over the wall or not—at least in big parks like the K. His HR rate dropped starting in the second half of 2008 so it’s a 1.5 year sample size. He was quoted in an article during the season as saying he found out in 2008 “where he got beat a lot,” and he obviously made the adjustment that led to the HR rate drop.

While HR/FB might be random for the general population of pitchers, for individuals with the right skill set, it’s possible that HR rate can be moderately controlled. Tom Glavine in his Braves days was famous for only pitching to the outside half for a long time so he wouldn’t miss over the plate as much as when pitching inside, and he sustained a low HR rate for quite a long time. Tim Lincecum, in a smaller sample size, over the last two years has maintained a 5.5% HR/FB rate. BABIP for pitchers can be statistically significant over long periods of time, so it’s possible that HR/FB could be too, although I’m personally too lazy to do the research.

by swing and a miss on Nov 18, 2009 1:02 PM EST up reply actions  

yes

It’s called “pitching well.”

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Nov 18, 2009 1:02 PM EST via mobile up reply actions   1 recs

if you're Zack Greinke you can

just decide to cut your walk rate, your home run rate, and increase your strikeout rate, and then actually do all of those things.

by swing and a miss on Nov 18, 2009 1:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes

It’s missing bats versus pitch to contact, and then within pitch to contact, it’s groundballs versus fly balls (which normally a pitcher would want more groundballs, but if your infield defense is the 2009 Royals infield defense, fly balls are not necessarily bad). Type of pitch and location highly affect whether a batted ball is a grounder or a fly. HR/9 is one of the components, and while the rate at which flyballs become HRs is generally the same (with ballpark as a major influence), the number of flyballs allowed is under the pitcher’s control — the fewer the flyballs, the fewer the HRs.

by Gopherballs on Nov 18, 2009 1:06 PM EST up reply actions  

if you are good enough to have the hitters

hit fly balls that are outs instead of homers. He is that good!

"Things could always be worse." - Buddy Bell

by buddyball on Nov 18, 2009 1:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I don't really get that

FIP is pretty much what all pitchers try to go for anyway. More strike outs, less walks, less homeruns – it’s not exactly the most sabermetric idea of all time.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 20, 2009 7:45 PM EST up reply actions  

This article really makes me want to have Disco on the staff as well

“Pitchers Who Stare at Statistics” – coming to a ball field near you

"Things could always be worse." - Buddy Bell

by buddyball on Nov 18, 2009 1:53 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

You really hate him

Anyway, he was offered an internship with the Royals a few years ago when it looked as if playing wouldn’t work out. It still may not, I hope the offer is still there.

by kcbottom9th on Nov 18, 2009 4:33 PM EST up reply actions  

no...he's just not a major league quality pitcher at this point...

and at his age, probably never will be. Nothing against him as a person, but its completely stupid when our fans clamor for less than mediocrity like Hayes, yet then go apeshit on our management when they bring in/play shitty players.

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Nov 18, 2009 5:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe management should bring in better players, then we couldn't clamor for weirdo submariners.

Who would you rather was pitching with the bases loaded, 1 out, 8th inning, up 2? Farnsworth or Disco? I think I’d take my chances with Disco.

by AxDxMx on Nov 18, 2009 8:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Part of Disco's appeal

is we’re not sure how he’d do. We’ve seen enough of Jamey Wright and Kyle Farnsworth to know what to expect.

I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.

by Warden11 on Nov 18, 2009 9:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly.

I’m not saying he’s gonna be good, but I’d rather give the unknown the shot because I know what will happen with the 2 knowns.

by AxDxMx on Nov 19, 2009 3:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Is there some alternate reality

where guys like Farnsworth and Wright earned their shot with us?

This space for rent.

by jonfmorse on Nov 19, 2009 10:20 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

farnsworth is a proven major leaguer

granted, not one that is worth $5 million/year, but a quality bullpen arm nonetheless. What happened to everyone on here wanting our minor leaguers to prove themselves in the minors, earn their shot? Why is Disco different?

These same people clamoring for Disco are the ones who blame Gordon’s not awesomeness on his lack of AAA time.

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Nov 19, 2009 11:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I am in the boat if you're going to suck, at least entertain me in a different way

Disco – entertaining

Farnsworth – for sure entertaining — I wonder if he ever got those dogs under control

Wright — Boring

Jeff Zimmerman - Protecting the world from RBI's and Wins from my mom's guest house.

by Jeff Zimmerman on Nov 20, 2009 1:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Farnsworth = Proven Suckage

Anthony Lerew came up from AA and threw a pretty good start, why couldn’t Disco have a September callup and be ok? I don’t think he’s going to be awesome, but the other guys proved they completely sucked, so why not try something different? It may not work, but trotting Farnsy and Wright back out there time after time didn’t work either.

I honestly don’t believe Disco can be a great MLB reliever, but who else in our system has shown they deserve a shot more than him and Carlos Rosa? I just don’t get the opposition when what we have is already terrible.

by AxDxMx on Nov 20, 2009 2:02 AM EST up reply actions  

So, you prefer

players who have proven that they suck at the big league level over those who have not yet proven such a thing.

GOT IT.

This space for rent.

by jonfmorse on Nov 21, 2009 3:19 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

look at farnsworth's numbers...

he wasnt spectacular and he wasnt good in high leverage situations, but he was more than worthy of a roster spot on our team or any other team

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Nov 21, 2009 2:45 PM EST up reply actions  

The Complete Farnsworth

Bases Empty: .560 OPS against

At least 1 runner: .917 OPS against

So he was great until he gave up a baserunner, or came in with anyone actually on the bases.

by AxDxMx on Nov 22, 2009 3:01 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I think that's what they're proposing.

Disco has pitched well enough in the minors to be considered for a major league job—not saying he should be given one, just given a shot. Farnsworth, Wright, Colon, Bale, etc. have pitched poorly enough to have any guarantees taken away from them.

by BrRoyal on Nov 20, 2009 11:11 AM EST up reply actions  

disco hasnt earned a shot....

he wasnt great in his limited time in AAA….if he goes down there and has a good april and may…im all for giving him a shot, but he should earn it….on the field and not at his keyboard which is where he’s earned it with most fans.

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Nov 20, 2009 12:21 PM EST up reply actions  

He gave up a few more hits in AAA

That’s it. On the back of a .367 BABIP. His FIP was a perfectly respectable 3.64 in Omaha.

by kcbottom9th on Nov 20, 2009 3:02 PM EST up reply actions  

it's perfectly reasonable....

but why dont we make him force his way onto the roster by excelling? If he didnt have a blog would there be a single person on here bitching about him not being here in KC? Hell, would more than 5 people on here even know his name?

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Nov 20, 2009 3:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe and maybe not.

The Jacobs disaster that blocked Kila burned a lot of people’s minds on how the Royals seemingly turn a blind eye to Omaha.

And I’m not saying Kila got totally screwed, but why not give that guy a chance when the majority of posters here knew Jacobs would be shitty when he was signed?

I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.

by Warden11 on Nov 20, 2009 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't read his blog, except for that toilet story, that was kind of funny.

What the hell does someone have to do to force their way on to the roster? Kila crushed in 2008 and his reward was that we traded for Mike Jacobs. Why couldn’t Disco pitch in mop up situations to start? It’s not like I’m asking for him to become closer over Soria. There was deadweight in the bullpen last year, and zero consequences for those involved in the suckage. Now maybe this year, we have a better bullpen, and I’ll stop calling for the backup QB. Because everybody loves the backup QB when the starter sucks.

by AxDxMx on Nov 20, 2009 6:11 PM EST up reply actions  

i understand wanting to give omaha guys a chance...

but this is like calling for a rookie 6th round qb in the 3rd game of the season to replace a shitty qb…i’m all for giving disco a chance….when he has earned it, which at this point he hasnt. Bringing him up this past year would likely not have helped the royals and not have helped Disco. Let him actually succeed at AAA rather than rushing him…which is exactly what Disco in August would have been.

Disco may have been better this past year than Wright or whoever, but theres also risk involved in harming him long term. Why do that in a lost season when theres no legitimate benefit? Why not wait til he’s actually ready?

As for Kila, I’m of the belief that he wasnt ready last year..and that had he excelled 2008 style in 2009, he’d have been up here in June or so, but he did not.

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Nov 20, 2009 7:02 PM EST up reply actions  

What about at least giving him a taste

so when he gets here for real, he’s not so nervous that he pees himself? Doesn’t hurt anyone to give him a September call up. I wonder if he’ll be invited to ST.

by AxDxMx on Nov 20, 2009 8:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Can we please please please make Banny the GM?

He could step in tomorrow and do a better job than Dayton. I really hope he pursues a career in the front office when he is done pitching. It would have to be more interesting than broadcasting or selling cars! And he could let himself get as fat as he wants!

by Soria's Unibrow on Nov 18, 2009 2:58 PM EST reply actions  

Kaegel has an article

in which Zack is quoted more extensively about how he pitches to FIP:

“So I try to get ahead of the count without leaving it run down the middle in a person’s power zone, get ahead in the count. That helps me not walk guys, and then, when I get two strikes, I try to strike guys out. And that’s how I try to pitch, to keep my FIP as low as possible.”

http://kansascity.royals.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20091118&content_id=7682348&vkey=news_kc&fext=.jsp&c_id=kc

by swing and a miss on Nov 18, 2009 3:55 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

The audio of Zack's print media press conference is at the KC Star

His FIP conversation with Kepner is around 9 minutes in:
http://videos.kansascity.com/vmix_hosted_apps/p/media?id=7371500
He says he wondered whether the writers would realize that Felix had good luck with his ERA because of Seattle’s great defense.

Also amusing is where he talks about learning from two pitchers on opposing teams of undisclosed identity because he doesn’t want to get those guys in trouble. I bet one of them is Mark Buerhle, since Zack described him as “amazing” but with “not great stuff,” and the two of them, along with Justin Verlander, were chatting quite a bit during the ASG workouts.

by swing and a miss on Nov 18, 2009 6:51 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Just another reason Banny is my favorite Royal

Yes, I said favorite. Obviously Zack and Billy are better, but I just love Banny for some reason. I mean, how can you not love a guy who can say “our infield defense sucks” so diplomatically.

by cbrett42 on Nov 18, 2009 4:36 PM EST reply actions  

Off-topic

I saw the following quote earlier today:

I didn’t know where I was going, but I trusted the process.

Yeah, I know it sounds like GMDM’s strategy at life, but it was actually Bill Simmons talking about writing his new book.

by cbrett42 on Nov 18, 2009 4:38 PM EST reply actions  

Yo.

I claim rights for first suggesting that Banny be the first pitcher-GM, at least a year ago. My reasoning (he’d just come off a bad 2008) was that he’d have sense enough to make himself the long man in the bullpen or part of a two- or three-man stack. I’m glad he did better than that last year.

What do you figure Banny and Zack’s IQs are? At least 125 apiece, I’d guess.

It's pronounced Poo-ZHOLS in Catalan.

by Juancho on Nov 18, 2009 6:52 PM EST reply actions  

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