Guillen and the (not so) almighty RBI
The following is an analysis of why Guillen's 97 RBIs in 2008 were overrated. I myself used to side with the RBI crowd, but have come around to a different vision of thinking, as have most on this site. But for the few holdouts, I present you this.
This is slightly modified from a comment I made in another thread.
This equation is a rough estimate of the RBI potential of a player:
RBIs = Runners On x BA + HR.
Guillen last year had a .242 average, 40 RBIs, and 9 homers. Plug those numbers in and solving for Runners On he had roughly 128 last year, and delivered 31 of them. Turns out he actually had 124 runners on when he came to the plate.
<sarcasm>What an excellent RBI man!!</sarcasm>
2008 Guillen – 20 HR, 97 RBI, .264 BA. solving for Runners On = 292, actual = 303. So taking out his RBIs for driving himself in (homers), that means he delivered 77 of those 303!
<sarcasm>Again, what an excellent RBI man!!</sarcasm>
So here’s the big question:
How do you increase RBI production?
Well, let’s look at the equation. RBIz = Runners On x BA + HR, so there are 3 factors.
- Increase homers.
- Increase batting average
- Increase runners on
Considering Guillen is below his career average for batting average lately, that probably won’t happen. His homers are trending downward over the last 5 years, so probably can’t increase RBIs through that. How about getting more runners on in front of him? DING DING DING! The one thing out of his control is pretty much what will determine his RBI total. Stick Mark Teahen/DDJ/Callaspo/Olivo/Buck/Gordon in Guillen’s spot in the lineup and all of them would do the same or outproduce him given the same circumstances, let’s take a look at 2008 (Guillen’s “good” season):
Teahen: .255, 15 homers, with Guillen’s 303 runners on = 92 RBIz
DDJ: .307, 12 HR, Guillen’s 303 runners on = 105 RBIz
Callaspo: .305, 0 HR, Guillen’s 303 runners on = 92 RBIz
Olivo: .255, 12 HR, with 303 runners on = 89 RBIz
Buck: .224, 9 HR, with 303 runners on = 77 RBIz
Gordon: .260, 16 HR, with 303 runners on = 95 RBIz
So very similar totals to Guillen from everyone but Buck, whose BA was terrible. Let's look at what changing a few of Gullen's 2008 variables will do to his RBI total.
1 If we increase his BA to .300 (a 13.6% increase) his RBI total becomes 111, so a 14 RBI increase. For every percent the BA went up, he gained an RBI.
2 If we increase his home runs, the formula only projects an increase of 1 RBI per homer, but assuming the extra homers came from flyball outs, his BA would raise as well which would knock in a few more RBIs. So let's say homers increase by 13.6%, that gives him 23 homers (and 3 more hits added to his BA to make it .269), which gives him a new formula total of 105. So that's definitely less bang for the buck than #1.
3. Let's up Guillen's baserunners by 13.6%. Now he has 344. Plug that into the formula and the RBI total is 111, so again a 14 RBI increase (not a coincidence as this essentially boils down to doing #1 again, 1.136 x BA x Runners On gives you the same number no matter the order you multiply in). So what's more likely? That Guillen can raise his BA to .300 from .265, or that he gets 41 more runners on base in front of him in a given year? You can't change Guillen, but you could put guys with higher OBP on in front of Guillen to get him more runners.
Clearly, the overriding factor here is how many baserunners you have on. Second place looks like it should go to BA, but a given MLB player isn't likely to raise his average significantly. As a career .270 hitter probably doesn't have too many .300 seasons in him, and if he did, it's probably due to BABIP which is out of his control. So is it more likely a player raises his average 36 points in a year (assuming no really low outlier years) or that a player hits an extra 6-10 homers in a given year (which would roughly equal the RBIs gained from the BA increase)? Increasing home run power is possible for younger players, though in Guillen's case, he's clearly declining (I'd put Guillen's odds of having a 20+ homer season in 2010 at 5%, and that might be high). So I would say that at first glance BA appears to have the greater effect, but HRs are more prone to have outlier years than BA. So the formula says BA is more valuable for RBIs, but in reality, I think increasing home run power may have the greater realistic chance of happening, and thus account for a greater effect.
But the main argument here is about the high importance of baserunners. Remember that DDJ had only 210 baserunners on for him in 2008 and drove in 73 (my formula estimates 76 RBIs), but with Guillen’s baserunners, DDJ is an RBI All-Star!
Clearly the Royals do not “need” Guillen. What they need are people that can get on base. The RBIz will follow.
2 recs |
19 comments
Comments
RBIs are about opportunity
if we could get more guys on base, we could have more RBIs
someone forward this to dayton
by royalsreview on Nov 24, 2009 1:14 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
you are talking crazy talk
"Things could always be worse." - Buddy Bell
by buddyball on Nov 24, 2009 12:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't you know!
He forgot " – Theta " at the end, which is the “clogging the basepaths quotient”
by sterlingice on Nov 25, 2009 4:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Funny you should mention that
The Royals were the worst at baserunning this year. As a team, they were -97.
by AxDxMx on Nov 25, 2009 5:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Luckily
We didn’t hit many rally killing HR’s. Can you imagine how bad we would be if we did?!
by kcbottom9th on Nov 25, 2009 5:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Unfortunately
Callaspo, Butler, and DDJ are the only players we have who can get on base, now that Avilés has turned back into a pumpkin and Gordon is shaping up to be a disappointment.
This is a problem.
It's pronounced Poo-ZHOLS in Catalan.
by Juancho on Nov 24, 2009 3:37 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Aviles and Gordon
now that Avilés has turned back into a pumpkin
I don’t see how a season lost to injury makes Aviles a failure going forward.
and Gordon is shaping up to be a disappointment.
The first half of the above sentence was about OBP, and while Gordon has disappointed, not with regard to OBP. And, FWIW, there are two 2010 projections out for Gordon, and they certainly like his OBP:
CHONE .352 OBP
Bill James .359 OBP
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Nov 24, 2009 8:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't want to give up on Aviles either
but I don’t have great faith in our FO giving him much of a shot
he’s a 1-11 stretch from AAA
by royalsreview on Nov 24, 2009 2:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good post
More self-promotion: I did a serise on “RBI guys” earlier this season and the “skill” it involves, and it stars some of our favorites:
And here is the 2009 Carter-Batista award
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.
Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.
by devil_fingers on Nov 24, 2009 9:32 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I remember reading those. Good stuff.
Any idea why the formula above would seriously underestimate extremes like Joe Mauer and Albert Pujols?
Pujols had 475 baserunners on last year, but if you take his stats it estimates 269. That’s a big problem. It really modeled Guillen and the Royals well, but really good hitters not so much. If you go the other way with it and try to predict his RBIs, then you come up with 202, so apparently he should’ve broken Hack Wilson’s record. Mauer suffers from the same issue. Is it something obvious I’m overlooking that can’t be accounted for in the formula? I’ve accounted for walks by only counting runners from ABs and not PAs. Maybe it has something to do with Pujols hitting 30 bases empty homers (76 RBIs on 47 homers)? Maybe home runs shouldn’t have a factor of 1, maybe it should be like .5 or something. BA should probably have some kind of factor attached to it as well. I was kind of surprised the formula worked at all. I came up with it in about 2 seconds.
by AxDxMx on Nov 24, 2009 11:24 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think it's just situational luck
I don’t have any statistical sophistication at all, hence the crude stats.
I mean “luck” in a broad sense — things out of the hitters control. Bases-empty XBH have a lot to do with it, and for Mauer, Posnanski’s favorite Gardy constantly putting OBP sinkholes like Orlando Cabrera and Nick Punto ahead of him really kills his opps (frankly, I think Mauer should probably be leading off or hitting #2 for the Twins, but that’s another issue).
I’m too lazy to find the links now, I may have linked them in my earlier posts, but I think it’s been shown that th biggest factor in accumulating RBI is where one hits in the order. Cf. Molina, Bengie.
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.
Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.
by devil_fingers on Nov 24, 2009 11:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and Guillen, Jose
A short of saying this:
if anyone thinks JoGui is really good because of his RBI, they should also be begging Dayton to sign Bengie Molina. And maybe trading Soria for Ryan Ludwick, too.
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.
Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.
by devil_fingers on Nov 24, 2009 11:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
thats what im thinking
because thats why i was asking i was going to run Pujols numbers under that model and see what we got on it, as well as some others
Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat
by DESTROYER on Nov 24, 2009 11:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
it would be interesting
but I think AxDxMx’s points is well-made. If someone really thinks that Pujols needs to be measured against his RBI, well, I’m not sure what I’d talk about with that person.
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.
Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.
by devil_fingers on Nov 24, 2009 12:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
im not arguing the point
im just inquiring about how each batter would match up and whether or not it would be a valid stat, that all objective scrutiny…i think that there needs to be something added to it, because as it stands i think there is alot of varibles to it, like add what pitch got the out/rbi’s and also take into account his AVG against those pitches, to really see what the RBI total should be
Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat
by DESTROYER on Nov 24, 2009 1:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That gets way too complicated :)
I don’t have the databases necessary to pull off that kind of stuff.
Anyways, I think I actually figured out the problem. At first, I thought maybe it was luck, but I figured that should even out long term, it shouldn’t be that big of a gap. Instead of using runners on, it should just be RISP. That knocks Pujols runner total down to 272, and predicted is 269. Unfortunately that still leaves the problem of Guillen as now predicted is 203 which is significantly less than what he had. Should probably work some other component in as a factor on BA (possibly OPS). I’ll probably forget about this in a few hours though.
And I don’t know that it’s really meant to be a stat as DESTROYER is asking above. I just thought it might be a way to model how baserunners are the most important part of RBI production. If you put 1000 guys on in front of TPJ, even he could get to 100 RBIs hitting .100 according to the formula.
by AxDxMx on Nov 24, 2009 3:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
where are you finding
the runners on base stat for players?
Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat
by DESTROYER on Nov 24, 2009 10:54 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I counted the situational stats on Baseball Reference
It gives stats for bases empty, runner on 1st, runner on 2nd, runner on 3rd, runner on 1st and 2nd, etc. Just count ABs and multiply by number on base. ABs are better to use since a walk in an RBI situation isn’t a bad outcome, but only drives in a run in the bases loaded situation. I think I may have used PAs in some of the numbers above instead of ABs though. Not that different because no one on this team walks!
by AxDxMx on Nov 24, 2009 11:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
















