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The Age Old Question of Objectivity

This interesting fanshot uses some intriguing language regarding the signing of Jason Kendall

"Once again, Mellinger gets it right. The negative uproar is as unnecessary as the overpraising of some potentially great pick-up would be (e.g. pulling off a trade for, say, Geovany Soto, would've been). On traditionally built teams, a weak bat at catcher would be tolerated if the traditional power positions were producing. The problem is the traditional positions, to which Mellinger alludes. In his words: "The Royals have much bigger issues." - TL

Star-divide

The operative term in the above quote is "negative uproar".   It is indeed fair to say that the Kendall signing has caused just that, in these and other quarters.    Why?   For followers of this website, the answer to this question is fairly obvious:   there does not seem to be an objectively reasonable basis for the signing.   Or, to put it different way, (1) Kendall's numbers suck, (2) they don't seem to be getting better, and (3) we're getting tired of the Royals' management's  "gut instincts"--personified by GMDM, and which seem to be the only explanation for the disregard of (1) and (2)-- being consistently off the mark.  

Or, to put it yet a different way, Dayton Moore's subjectivity is getting old, and it ain't working.

The philosophers among us will recognize this distinction (i.e., the distinction between the objective and the subjective) to be a problem that dates back to the pissing matches between Plato and Aristotle.    Plato saw truth as the wavy image on a cave wall.   Aristotle said:  get out of your cave and go look at the world.  These two schools of truth have caused some "negative uproars" over the past 2300 years, and, you could argue that the dynamic tension between these two schools have led to some good old fashioned burnings at the stake as well.   Now that's a Negative Uproar.

Are we just a bunch of Moore-haters or Kendall-haters around here?   I say no.  For one thing, we love poetry, and everybody knows that poets want the best out life for all, even for certain gritty slow guys who last were fleet of foot when tech stocks were fun to buy.   More important, bile-mongering should not be confused with merely seeking an objective basis for important decisions.  That, my friends,  is the heart of the matter.

The throughline for negative uproars is this:  there appears to be a strong, objective basis for evaluating baseball decisions, and the Royals all too often ignore that basis, or haven't yet fully explained what the alternative basis for their decisions might be.    Absent a reasonable explanation (and, obviously, merely calling something a "process" is not "reasonable"), the Royals can expect nothing but Negative Uproars in the wake of their moves, especially among those who have moved beyond a Pony League understanding of baseball.

Get out of the cave Dayton:  there is a big, Objective world out there!  

Until then, we will continue to hold your feet to the fire.

Comment 42 comments  |  8 recs  | 

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Those two did have "pissing matches"

But I think both agreed to get out of the cave. Plato wrote the allegory of the cave and Aristotle was his student. But the point still stands.

Release the chains off of DM and let him out of the cave!!! Stop viewing the world with just your eyes and use some ideas!!!

by wt on Dec 14, 2009 5:10 PM EST reply actions  

What would at least quiet a lot of the rabble

is if GMDM acknowledged the validity of the objective, even if he trusts the subjective more. If his comment after the Kendall signing had been “I understand that JK’s performance has been slipping since he’s getting up there in years, but we as an organization believe that his role as mentor to our young battery mates is even more important than that. This is part of the ongoing development of our team, not just while JK is here, but after that as well”. At least then we could say, well, we don’t agree with his valuation of the objective vs. the subjective, though at least he’s willing to stand by his decisions; but instead we’ve just got Moore seeing only the subjective with no hope of giving a fair shot to the objective side (if he even acknowledges it).

Blank

by benfunke on Dec 14, 2009 5:34 PM EST reply actions  

On the other side of the coin...

Is it Dayton’s job to placate the fans and explain his every move to their satisfaction. Good or bad, he was hired to run a baseball franchise. He doesn’t owe us an explanation of squat. Now, the owner should be at least a little concerned by the rumble of the fans. No fans, no money, a worthless franchise is born.

by grudz96 on Dec 14, 2009 5:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Well he does owe us something

I mean we do sort of give this team our hard earned money to watch them suck.

by AxDxMx on Dec 14, 2009 5:50 PM EST up reply actions  

He doesn't, but he also treats us (Royals fans) as idiots.

That’s not a smart thing to do, either.

I wonder if he’s testing whether the All-Star game in 2012 will force people to renew or buy season tickets even with a terrible product on the field.

I used to work with an old man that told me- Son, every workplace has a dumbass. If you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.

by Warden11 on Dec 14, 2009 7:43 PM EST up reply actions  

but, that isn't his problem is it.

The Walmart family should worry if you do not spend money on the Royals. Dayton doesn’t care as long as he can feed them a line of bull and keep his job. The fans don’t matter.

by grudz96 on Dec 14, 2009 10:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I know there's a business operations side to the Royals

but the product on the field will be the main reason your business is profitable or not. He better worry at least a little about what we think. If there’s no one to buy tickets he’s out of a job.

by AxDxMx on Dec 15, 2009 12:43 AM EST up reply actions  

Is it not obvious by now...

That DMGM is a clone of Allard Barid? They dress and look the same, both talk like robots, both make the same horrid mistakes. Nothing has changed.

by KCG816 on Dec 14, 2009 5:43 PM EST reply actions  

one obvious difference

I don’t recall Allure Baird ever publicly calling his critics impatient morons.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Dec 14, 2009 5:55 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

stupid BlqckBerry auto-correct

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Dec 14, 2009 5:56 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Haha, it corrects Allard but not blackberry?

I used to work with an old man that told me- Son, every workplace has a dumbass. If you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.

by Warden11 on Dec 14, 2009 7:44 PM EST up reply actions  

it doesn't correct in subject lines for some reason

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Dec 14, 2009 8:36 PM EST up reply actions  

one of the things i do see as different

is that baird actually acknowledged his mistakes. I think i remember him saying he should of been hung from the flag pole after the dye for nefi trade. It would be nice to see dayton at least show us some respect and acknowledge his mistakes

by wt on Dec 14, 2009 6:20 PM EST up reply actions  

“what mistakes?”

—GMDM

Blank

by benfunke on Dec 14, 2009 6:34 PM EST up reply actions  

There are no mistakes

There are only LIES!!!

Tension is the enemy. - Charlie Lau

by aHorseWithNoName on Dec 14, 2009 6:44 PM EST up reply actions  

right

the only mistake was not smelling out that lying rat Aviles soon enough

Blank

by benfunke on Dec 14, 2009 7:27 PM EST up reply actions  

One Can Only

Be hanged so many times.

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Dec 14, 2009 10:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Baird could use the excuse that he didn't have money

Glass gave Moore money and he came up with Meche (nice), Guillen, Farnsworth, Betancourt, and Kendall (awful). I don’t know if Baird wouldve made moves this bad with an open checkbook, but he couldn’t have done much worse.

Yes, I'm still alive. Sorry to disappoint you.

by royaldaddy on Dec 15, 2009 1:14 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I rec'd this post, nice angle of approach.

I used to work with an old man that told me- Son, every workplace has a dumbass. If you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.

by Warden11 on Dec 14, 2009 7:45 PM EST reply actions  

lets just trust the process

by Freneau on Dec 14, 2009 8:46 PM EST reply actions  

I don't understand your use of sarcasm font in this context.

by NotAHippie on Dec 14, 2009 8:49 PM EST up reply actions  

It would be one thing if the unorthodox moves were working

But they are not. When the fans can immediately claim that a move is garbage and then are proven correct on the field, it shows that the fans have a better grasp on how to build a team than the GM does. The fact that David Glass doesn’t care about how his team is being mismanaged is yet another indictment on the ineptitude of the entire organization. I don’t think it is a stretch to say the Royals have the worst owner, the worst GM and the worst field manager of any major league team.

by Olentangy on Dec 14, 2009 10:06 PM EST reply actions  

The absolute worst in each category might be a stretch,

but I have no doubts that combined they are very close to the bottom of the pile.

I used to work with an old man that told me- Son, every workplace has a dumbass. If you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.

by Warden11 on Dec 14, 2009 10:23 PM EST up reply actions  

He's just taking the Moneyball approach

He’s finding players who don’t hold much value in the regular market.

The problem with this approach is two-fold:
  1) The players he’s picking weren’t “undervalued”, but instead, they were/are properly valued, because they have no redeeming qualities.

  2) He’s overpaying for the pieces he finds.

Unless I'm wrong...
My Twitter feed

by Top Ramen on Dec 15, 2009 2:28 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

It just makes me ill...

That the Royals are flushing Zack Greinke’s prime down the toilet. They’ve essentially admitted that they won’t compete in ‘10. So they’ve blown what could be the two best years of ZG’s career. Makes me sick.

by billexgordler on Dec 14, 2009 11:25 PM EST reply actions  

2010

The Royals were never going to compete in 2010 after last season, and any fan who even has dreams of it is, well, dreaming. Frankly, it wouldn’t even be possible to deal this team into contention. The team has too many holes without positive-value replacements available, and trading to fill those holes would be among the stupidest possible plans.

This space for rent.

by jonfmorse on Dec 15, 2009 6:13 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Well...

Hopefully for the sake of Zack he will have a great stretch over the next 10 years, I dont think he’s peaked at 26.

by KCG816 on Dec 15, 2009 12:48 AM EST reply actions  

This post is a great way to explain what Poz touched on during the last season

Poz was basically saying how frustrating it is to root for an organization that fundamentally views the game differently than you do. This is exactly what is happening with Moore vs our stat-based little community here. Moore believes in scouting analysis and intangibles first and foremost, with very little (if any) serious statistical analysis thrown in. That is a subjective approach. We on this blog believe in a stats-based analysis first and foremost, which is an objective approach.

I would venture to say that the constant posters on here, however, are more open to considering the additional input provided by scouting than Moore is open to considering the additional input provided by serious, modern statistical analysis.

That’s a real shame, because an open minded person should be SEARCHING for new ways to do his job better every day.

Mr Glass, this is a pro sports team, not a retail store - run it like one!

by loyal2sdad on Dec 15, 2009 11:01 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

Nail, you have just met the hammer!

I would venture to say that the constant posters on here, however, are more open to considering the additional input provided by scouting than Moore is open to considering the additional input provided by serious, modern statistical analysis.
That’s a real shame, because an open minded person should be SEARCHING for new ways to do his job better every day.

by AxDxMx on Dec 15, 2009 11:37 AM EST up reply actions  

and hopefully those two will soon be acquainted with

coffin.

not that i’m holding my breath, given the recent contract extension that shall not be named

Blank

by benfunke on Dec 15, 2009 2:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Fixing the little issues and the big issues are related.

You can’t excuse the Kendall signing as trivial if we have a limited payroll. Mellinger’s mistake is believing that giving Kendall 2 yrs/$6 million is unrelated to fixing bigger problems.

$6 million to Kendall is money that we can’t use to sign a slugger that will fix a big issue. Mellinger needs to look at this list:

Bloomie: $1.7mm
Kendall: $2.25mm
Farns: $4.5 mm

GMDM gave those guys 2-year contracts, and their combined 2010 salary is $8.45mm. The Royals say they can’t afford an expensive free agent. See the correlation?

When payroll is limited, fixing the little issues and the big issues are related.

by hippdoghipp on Dec 15, 2009 11:50 AM EST reply actions  

I would bet Ryan Langerhans, Kelly Johnson, and Gabe Gross combined sign for less than that this season

that’s a near-average major league outfield

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Dec 15, 2009 12:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Then were does Bloomquist, Kendall, and Farnsworth get us?

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Dec 15, 2009 1:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Hell?

I used to work with an old man that told me- Son, every workplace has a dumbass. If you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.

by Warden11 on Dec 15, 2009 2:32 PM EST up reply actions  

I think you just named our Opening Day OF

Blomquist in RF, Farnsy in CF so he can use that arm of his to throw out baserunners, and Kendall in LF where his ability with the bat will more than make up for his deficiencies in speed and defense.

We’ll turn DDJ into a reliever, send Mitch back down to AAA, and Guillen can catch. Coco Crisp will DH.

by Soria's Unibrow on Dec 16, 2009 7:37 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Let's face it

The only times we’re going to enjoy next season are when Zack pitches, when they manage to hold a lead into the ninth so Soria can pitch, and when Butler’s up. I hope we can also enjoy watching Gordon finally develop into an above-average player, and Callaspo will spray doubles around the park. We all like Meche, and we hope Banny does well, and we know DDJ will do his job.

That’s all. Everything else will be Yunis and Kendalls and Farnsys, oh my!

Anyway, Seitzer will be able to use a lot of game film in order to show the kids at his camp how not to play baseball. “Now, watch this at-bat. The ball’s clearly low and outside, but Guillén swung at it anyway, missed by a mile, and fell down, injuring an imaginary tendon so that he couldn’t play for a week. What do we learn from this?” Kid: “Don’t sign crappy players for lots of money?” Seitzer: “Besides that, I mean.” Kid: “Don’t swing at pitches outside the strike zone?” Seitzer: “That’s right, Jimmy. You wanna play right field tomorrow?”

It's pronounced Poo-ZHOLS in Catalan.

by Juancho on Dec 17, 2009 9:30 AM EST reply actions  

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