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Around SBN: Nevin Shapiro Vows To Bring Down Miami

On the Importance of Throwing Out Basestealers.

Big debate over in one of the Kendall threads regarding catcher defense metrics and whether they appropriately weight things or, indeed, are even worth a hoot.  It's primarily between WURoyal and NYRoyal, with some other contributions (most notably from AxDxMx).  WURoyal is concerned that we're just not paying enough attention to the importance of preventing runner advancement.

However, that thread has turned into the Narrow Column, and it's become unwieldy... and in the process of trying to respond to it, I realized that it was probably worth a post on its own, because it will either incite more debate, or will serve as a primer on the individual play impact of something a lot of people either seem to think can't be measured or don't measure correctly themselves.

(I should also note that I started working on this post a couple of days ago; since then, d_f has outlined his figurations, which take some of the following into account as well.  But I'm going with the post anyway.)

In short: there is a value to a catcher against whom baserunners are afraid to run, but it's not nearly as important as you might think.

Star-divide

WURoyal would be correct in saying that a catcher who allows 3 SB/0 CS in 100 games is "better" than one who allows 30 SB/20 CS in 100 games, if all one is interested in is discussing who's got a better arm or something.

However:

Catcher Two up there is responsible for erasing 20 baserunners.  That is not insignificant.  The value of inducing the baserunner into retiring himself exceeds the value of keeping him from advancing a base.

You can see this by comparing run expectancy.  (I'm using the old 2002 numbers, because I'm lazy, but the general point still remains.)

Runner thrown out at second reduces run expectancy by .656 if there's nobody out, and by .457 if there's one out, and by .251 (to zero, of course) if there are two out.

Meanwhile, runner stealing second increases run expectancy by .236 with nobody out, .152 with one out, and .093 with two out.  (Both sets of figures assume a lone baserunner, also.)

As you see, the retirement of the runner weighs more to the defense's benefit than the advancement of the runner benefits the offense.  This is another way of expressing an axiom which has been key to sabermetric discussion for almost three decades now: the stolen base is not as valuable as people think, and a basestealer needs to succeed over 70% of the time to be in the plus column.

As we go through this exercise, let's use the one-out numbers in lieu of an average, just for simplicity's sake.

Now, if we assume both catchers play the same number of defensive innings (so that comparing them is equal), and assume the normal 70% success rate for basestealers, the first catcher (1) increases his opponent's run expectancy of .456 due to the three allowed SB; (2) decreases his opponent's run expectancy not one bit due to the 0 CS; and (3) decreases his opponent's run expectancy by five runs as a result of the 33 bases they didn't steal on him because of the 47 times they were apparently too scared to run on the guy.  (47 * .7 = 33)  Net result, he's decreased the opponent's run expectancy by about 4.5 runs.  That's not bad; it's sorta worth half a win, and it takes into account the effect of runners fearing his arm.

Note that you have to do this last step for the catcher in question.  Otherwise, you're claiming that his actions or inaction regarding baserunners have cost his team half a run defensively, period.  He has not; he has only cost his team half a run by allowing three SB as part of the overall package.  The fact that nobody wants to run on him is, in fact, a relevant data point -- one which I think most people mistakenly view as "unmeasurable."  Of course it's measurable; it's measurable by "the number of times runners didn't try to steal," but I should note that it does need to be leavened with a league-wide rate of recalcitrance to have actual meaning.*

Catcher two (1) increases his opponent's run expectancy by 3.04 runs due to the 20 SB allowed; (2) decreases his opponent's run expectancy by 13.71 runs due to the 30 guys he caught; and (3) nothing, because for purposes of our example he didn't have anyone fail to run on him.*  Net result?  He's decreased the opponent's run expectancy by well over TEN runs.

If we turn this around and say the second catcher only threw out 40% of attempted basestealers, then he "only" saves his team about 4.7 runs.  Still a smidge better than the first guy.

There's a reason for this, which people who focus way too hard on the value of preventing the stolen base always, always, always forget.  I talked about it before getting into the statistics, and I worked it into the overall formula at one point (when crediting the first catcher for the guys who didn't run on him) because it was necessary to do so in order to be intellectually honest:

The league average overall SB success rate is relevant when comparing catchers. A catcher who throws out 40% of basestealers is better than average.  A guy who throws out 28% of runners is slightly worse than a guy who does so 35% of the time, but the difference is much smaller than "28-35" makes it look -- because it's actually the difference between "-2%" and "+5%".

In a nutshell, this is really the bottom line.  You can, in fact, measure a catcher's cost or benefit to his team due to his arm.  It's not rocket science.  (Similarly, you can measure the effect of his glove behind the plate, although there will be some noise due to the "distinction" between WP and PB, and perhaps some lack of data regarding "wild pitches prevented", which John Buck incidentally was very good at.)  In fact, the only thing we can't measure is "handling the pitching staff".

I have no idea whether some form of this exact calculation is part of current catcher defense metrics, although I'm certain that the end result works its way into the final analysis in a somewhat similar fashion.  But it's the best way I could think of to explain the importance of SB/CS from the defensive side of things to my own satisfaction, and thus perhaps get the point across to other folks.  There is probably a structural flaw on my part here, for which I won't begrudge anyone the need to correct -- but even at that, I'm sure everyone who works sabermetrically will acknowledge that the results are at least on the right track.

* - Naturally, for league purposes, one must figure out the league-wide attempted SB rate and factor it into this somehow to equalize the effect for all catchers.  (That is, our second catcher in the example may also be entitled to credit for additional runners who did not run against him, and some penalty for being run on "too often" may need to be applied for others.)  I was just comparing two guys here, so consider that a quick-and-dirty bypass.

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this is getting recs but no comments.

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by jonfmorse on Dec 15, 2009 2:42 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Question

This is kind of confusing to me so I’ll try to make my question clear.

In regards to the first catcher:

(3) decreases his opponent’s run expectancy by five runs as a result of the 33 bases they didn’t steal on him because of the 47 times they were apparently too scared to run on the guy. (47 * .7 = 33)

Is there (or “Should there”) be an adjustment to factor in runners NOT caught stealing? In your example, 14 runners would have remained at first (due to fear of being caught). So, shouldn’t these “extra” runners have an imact on expected runs? Is it correct to think of these as 14 missed opportunities to reduce run expectancy? Or did you account for this already, and I just don’t see it (that’s possible!)?

Tension is the enemy. - Charlie Lau

by aHorseWithNoName on Dec 15, 2009 2:59 PM EST reply actions  

Hmm, interesting question.

No, it’s not accounted for elsewhere, other than to say that it’s 47 runners who didn’t even try to steal.

I suspect the concept might break down if you tried to “charge” the catcher with the missed CS opportunities, because in our example above the difference in run expectancy between those 14 CS and 14 non-steals is almost seven runs. Add in the runs you credit the catcher with saving because 33 guys didn’t steal, and the argument becomes “because guys don’t run on him, he cost the team two runs.” I think that’s patently absurd, and I think everyone else would agree; in reality, if every runner who reached first tried to steal second, individually catchers would be allowing literally hundreds of SB a year, yet most innings would end a lot earlier and a lot fewer runs would score. Thus, I think it’s fair to credit the catcher with the runners who did NOT steal second, while simultaneously not charging him with the runners he did NOT catch because they didn’t run.

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by jonfmorse on Dec 15, 2009 3:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Wait a second

Perhaps it IS accounted for, specifically by not “crediting” him with saving the run expectancy for the other 14 guys.

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by jonfmorse on Dec 15, 2009 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

This is kind of fun

I think my only point, if I have one, is that, if you’re going to look at the cost/benefit of a stolen base attempt, (a.k.a risk – in the context of your example), you should also take into account both the potential cost/benefit of not stealing (risk avoidance) and only for the number of runners that you’d expect to steal (47 in your example)- not for every runner that reaches first. I think the adjustment that I asked about above would likely be very small – I doubt that a “feared” catcher would cost his team runs because nobody tried to steal.

Of course, we are talking about a relatively minor part of the game here. Perhaps this would make more sense if a league-wide analysis was done taking into account attempted SB rates as you mention in your original post. Again, I have to believe that any risk avoidance adjustment would be very small and would likely only be applied to few catchers. Also, the difference between a good catcher in this department and a poor one is probably very small. You obviously had to use some extreme examples to get a noticeable difference.

Tension is the enemy. - Charlie Lau

by aHorseWithNoName on Dec 15, 2009 4:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, here's the problem.

No matter what you do, every runner who does not attempt to steal counts “against” the catcher if you “penalize” him for those runners who are not caught stealing because they didn’t try. And the more successful he is at deterring the steal, the worse it gets.

It’s true that in most cases, a catcher who is adept at deterring the steal will also be good at throwing out those who do — but there’s two reasons we can’t count on this in building a workable model:

1) Often, catchers who really are good at deterring the steal will have lower-than-average CS rates, because the occasions on which runners do steal are those occasions where their chance of success is enhanced (pitcher with a slow delivery, for example).

2) It’s just a bad basis for a model.

There’s got to be a logical way around this which doesn’t involve simply ignoring data or trying to bend it; I’m just not seeing it (yet).

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by jonfmorse on Dec 15, 2009 5:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Also

Yes, the differences do need to be extreme to be significant.

I mean, the difference between two catchers with similar baserunners who throw out 28% and 35% of attempted stealers? Seriously, that’s like one or two CS difference. We’re talking about less than a run over the course of a season.

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by jonfmorse on Dec 15, 2009 5:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Hmmmm....

I see what you’re saying, but let me take one more crack at this.

In your original example, you essentially calculate 3 things. The “cost” of allowing a stolen base (expressed as an increase in run expectancy), the “benefit” of throwing out a runner trying to steal (decrease in run expectancy), and the “benefit” of deterring runners from stealing (also a decrease in RE). It just seems logical to me that there is also a cost (however small) to SB deterrence. Just because it is small and tricky to figure out doen’t mean that it’s not there (and I’m not suggesting that you’re saying it doesn’t exist either).

I don’t see how or why a catcher should be penalized for every runner that doen’t attempt to steal. Your 3rd variable (benefit of deterrence) is basically an imaginary number based on 70% success rate using 47 runners (the ones that tried to steal on catcher #2 but didn’t try against catcher #1). I don’t see where every runner who reached base on catcher #2 tried to steal – I think this is where your league ave stats on SB attempts would come into play. For me, the missing 4th variable (also an imaginary number) would just use the opposite percentage of variable 3 (30%) and only adjust using those runners.

Tension is the enemy. - Charlie Lau

by aHorseWithNoName on Dec 15, 2009 6:24 PM EST up reply actions  

errr

make that “every runner that doesn’t attempt to steal.”

Tension is the enemy. - Charlie Lau

by aHorseWithNoName on Dec 15, 2009 6:38 PM EST up reply actions  

There IS a cost to runner deterrence.

I’m not saying there isn’t, just that it seems awkward to “penalize” a catcher for doing so, even though in reality almost all catchers would be better off if every runner who reached first tried to steal.

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by jonfmorse on Dec 15, 2009 6:40 PM EST up reply actions  

That's true

Maybe calling it a “cost” or “penalty” is the wrong verbage.

Perhaps, all that is needed is a slight (very slight) downward adjustment to the benefit of deterrence – as deterred runners (who would’ve been thrown out by less feared catchers) sometimes score? Therefore, a feared catcher wouldn’t realize the full benefit as you’ve calculated above (but it’d still be a benefit)?

Tension is the enemy. - Charlie Lau

by aHorseWithNoName on Dec 15, 2009 6:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, the thing is

it IS a cost. Really, I think we should include it in the calculation, and accept it as part of the deal.

Besides, it’s entirely possible to be feared, yet still not be good at throwing out baserunners. Not to the tune of “0 CS”, certainly, but it’s still possible.

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by jonfmorse on Dec 15, 2009 7:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Let me echo other commenters...

and say good work here.

I really enjoyed our discussion and appreciate your responses – I hope others did too!

Tension is the enemy. - Charlie Lau

by aHorseWithNoName on Dec 15, 2009 8:56 PM EST up reply actions  

doesn't this just show

attempting to steal a base can swing run expectancies in either direction. Therefore the catcher who would “score” best is one that runners attempt to run on and get thrown out.

Makes sense to me. What we should really use this for is offenses who attempt to steal bases and what their net sb/cs run expectancies were. It would be interesting to compare say the team that stole the most bases (but was thrown out alot) vs. a team which stole few bases but had a high percentage of success.

It might show (in the end) that teams are stupid to run against “mediocre” throwing catchers like buck because they are actually hurting their chances to score runs!

At least Wally Joyner's not on the team....

by tcon125 on Dec 16, 2009 10:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Still needs work.

Waiting for Matt to quit scissoring his Frank White bobblehead and chime in.

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by jonfmorse on Dec 15, 2009 5:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Sorry, I just generally agree with it, I rec'd it right away!

I don’t think I have anything to add, if I understand this correctly.

Catcher defense is hard to isolate. All the metrics I know of, whether mine (which is just a variant of what Rally/CHONE and Justin Inaz do), plus/minus or WOWY, finally judge a catcher against league average in all categories.

We’re measuring value — the value of the runs/rune expectancy above/below the average catcher would prevent/allow in the same situations — that’s why these metrics do PlayerCS minus (league CS rate times player opporunities). we aren’t measuring “absolute” value.

I think there was also some confusion in the other thread because some were equivocating between measuring value provided in a particular season and projections going forward (i.e., “true talent”).

But, like I said, this is all just agreeing with morse. I think.

But to return to the “reputation” issue that’s gong on implicitly in the other thread, I recommend reading the discussion of catcher defense in the comments of a thread at The Book Blog starting here, particularly those by Tango and Justin Inaz.

Generally, the method (which I took from Justin) works. And, as Tango puts it in comment #10:

I agree. If you have superman catching, no one will run, in which case, it’s a disadvantage to the fielding team.

Ideally, all teams would be stealing at the breakeven point and above, so that the superman catcher will look better than all catchers.

But, this doesn’t happen.

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by Matt Klaassen on Dec 15, 2009 5:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Okay

So the idea that a catcher could actually hurt his team by being too good isn’t new ground.

After looking at the Book Blog thread, I think maybe the first question that needs to be asked is, “Are there catchers who show a clear tendency to dissuade runners from stealing, or catchers who offer runners an open invitation?”

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by jonfmorse on Dec 15, 2009 6:07 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, but it's still interesting

and brings in a lot of game-theory-type issues to the fore

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by Matt Klaassen on Dec 15, 2009 6:15 PM EST up reply actions  

God, I just thought of another impact

What if you have a catcher who’s perceived as easy to run on, but is actually average? Teams over-run on him, and you’re pocketing outs left and right. OMG.

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by jonfmorse on Dec 15, 2009 6:21 PM EST up reply actions  

yup

Or as average, but is good… or whatever

Whatever it is, it happened with Gerald Laird this past season. He kept throwing guys out at a 42% rate, and they just kept running. It’s like Trey HIllman was managing every game against him.

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by Matt Klaassen on Dec 15, 2009 6:29 PM EST up reply actions  

just throwing this out there

if it’s the case that teams incorrectly do/don’t run when the should, then it’s no longer the catcher’s doing (from a true talent perspective) — but i guess that’s what regressing stats toward the average is for

Blank

by benfunke on Dec 15, 2009 6:57 PM EST up reply actions  

right

but also, part of catcher’s skill might be that he doesn’t “seem” as dangerous as he is.

There’s no other way to explain why teams run on Laird and Y. Molina so much.

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by Matt Klaassen on Dec 15, 2009 7:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Valid point, too.

But you’d then have to sell the public on the idea that a catcher’s deterrence factor is an irrelevance.

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by jonfmorse on Dec 15, 2009 7:03 PM EST up reply actions  

ha, i need to read other comments closer

i basically agreed with you in a reply up a couple

At least Wally Joyner's not on the team....

by tcon125 on Dec 16, 2009 10:15 PM EST up reply actions  

i'll fess up to rec'ing but not commenting

it was mostly b/c i didn’t want to lead off with a debbie-downer comment. which was, can you account for non-catcher/baserunner factors, such as pitcher/1B holding runner close and SS/2B combos for their catch and tag ability. the reason i see it as a downer question is that without much larger sample sizes it seems impossible to really isolate the catcher ability from the other teammates’ abilities.

Blank

by benfunke on Dec 15, 2009 5:39 PM EST reply actions  

WOWY does at least some of that

but is much harder to do, and impossible without retrosheet, and you really need a whoe season of data — one really couldn’t do it in-season.

Introduction to WOWY

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by Matt Klaassen on Dec 15, 2009 5:49 PM EST up reply actions  

There's a lot of other things that have small dependencies

on other players, and we don’t disregard that data because of it. I mean, whether a pitcher throws strikes or not depends on the catcher to an extent (especially in the “framing the pitch” aspect of human error on the part of the umpire).

So you can do without trying to factor all that stuff in, so long as you recognize the noise.

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by jonfmorse on Dec 15, 2009 6:00 PM EST up reply actions  

This makes complete sense

I have never thought of preventing runners from stealing in this way before.

by KCBear on Dec 15, 2009 6:06 PM EST reply actions  

This is a phenomenon of the relative values you've asserted

If:

expected run value of a SB < (Catcher CSrate)*(expected run value of a CS)

Then the other team is running to their detriment. Here I certainly see the value in a catcher who induces the team to run more. Namely, for every SBA the opposing team is decreasing their run expectancy by .0318 runs

.151 < (.40)*(.457)

If this is the case then the more times a team runs against someone the more value they will have.

Using d_f’’s numbers and the CS rates from 2009 of a CS rate for both players of .18

.19>(.18)*(.44)

Here, the opposing team gains .08 runs per SBA.

So more runners did mean Buck’s arm conceded more runs over the same number of Plate appearances.

by WURoyal on Dec 15, 2009 6:21 PM EST reply actions  

Also, your initial stats and stats used for main calculations are different. If the catcher has 30CS and 20 SB that’s a CS rate of 60% and the opposing team will decrease their run expectancy by .1232 runs every SBA.

by WURoyal on Dec 15, 2009 6:29 PM EST up reply actions  

You're confusing me.

Where exactly are my initial stats (your initial stats, if we’re going to be precise) and the ones I used different?

I have a suspicion that you’re trying to calculate the opposing team’s run expectancy based on the catcher’s CS rate, then plugging that in to determine to what level he is affecting their run expectancy… which is circular logic, and just plain wrong. The only thing that matters is the base league-wide run expectancy for “runner on first, X outs” vs. “runner on second, X outs” and “no runner at all, X+1 outs”. I admit I am probably misunderstanding your intent, though.

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by jonfmorse on Dec 15, 2009 6:39 PM EST up reply actions  

WURoyal would be correct in saying that a catcher who allows 3 SB/0 CS in 100 games is “better” than one who allows 30 SB/20 CS in 100 games, if all one is interested in is discussing who’s got a better arm or something.

This is a fair characterization. Your situation involves opposing teams who are running against an outstanding defensive catcher (40% or 60% CSrate where you assert the league average is 30% for the calculation of the catcher with 3 SB) . You switch back and forth between the two in your initial post.

I agree with calculating the SB, CS, and the SB’s prevented. Your measure of SB’s prevented would be an estimate based off the ML average, however, and not particularly relevant based on how you compare two individual catchers against themselves.

The nice thing about your post is that it perfectly reflects how the CS rate will vary in relation to the SBA. The more SBA per inning, the higher the CS rate should be if we assume two catchers of equal talent. This is another reason Buck’s CSrate looks so bad compared to Kendall’s from last year.

I’m not trying to calculate anything, only pointing out that in this instance running against the catcher yielded negative results because of the Catcher’s CS rate.

by WURoyal on Dec 15, 2009 7:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Some nitpicks

I didn’t switch back and forth; I did the calcs at 60%, then showed them at 40% for illustration’s sake.

The ML average is always relevant, and in fact when comparing two catchers with similar innings worked but wildly divergent SB attempts, it’s absolutely required. Now, I’ll grant that if you’re dealing with a guy who’s been run on half as much as the league, then you could probably use his own CS% to determine how many runners he would cut down if they ran; in an extreme example such as the one you posited, it doesn’t work at all. Why? Because your example guy allowed 3 SB with 0 CS, and thus we’d have to charge him with 47 SB to level the opportunities. That obviously won’t work, and any model which contains ends of the bell curve for which the model doesn’t work isn’t all that useful.

I’m really not sure what you’re trying to say with your whole third paragraph there. The catcher’s CS rate isn’t in any way dependent on the number of attempts against him. At best, what might happen is that he regresses toward the mean as the number of SBA grows. But there’s absolutely no reason to presume that the CS rate is going to increase just because there are more SBA. The number of CS will increase, sure. Not the rate.

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by jonfmorse on Dec 15, 2009 10:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I didn’t switch back and forth; I did the calcs at 60%, then showed them at 40% for illustration’s sake.

Initially you say 40%, then you say 60%, they you go back to 40%. I don’t care, it’s just important to recognize that in either case you are assuming that this catcher had an above league average CS rate (given your statement that the league average for SB success was 70%).

The ML average is always relevant, and in fact when comparing two catchers with similar innings worked but wildly divergent SB attempts, it’s absolutely required.

I don’t disagree in comparing things above and below the ML average, but in doing so we should be consistent. It is a bit confusing to me in your example because you are comparing the two catchers between themselves in some areas and against the ML average in others.

in an extreme example such as the one you posited, it doesn’t work at all. Why? Because your example guy allowed 3 SB with 0 CS, and thus we’d have to charge him with 47 SB to level the opportunities. That obviously won’t work, and any model which contains ends of the bell curve for which the model doesn’t work isn’t all that useful.

No idea why this is “my example.” I would say that the catcher with 3 SB’s probably had a better arm, but the catcher with a 40% or 60% was able to add value because other teams overestimated the probability of their runner’s success, inducing them to take action that decreased their run expectancy. To adjust for SB’s I would find the number of SB’s per SBO above or below ML average. and the number of Catcher CS above or below the ML average.

I’m really not sure what you’re trying to say with your whole third paragraph there. The catcher’s CS rate isn’t in any way dependent on the number of attempts against him. At best, what might happen is that he regresses toward the mean as the number of SBA grows. But there’s absolutely no reason to presume that the CS rate is going to increase just because there are more SBA. The number of CS will increase, sure. Not the rate.

This is an underlying problem with comparing the CS% or total SB without adjusting for SBO’s. The skill of every runner is not constant. The CS rate (of a catcher with a given level of ability) will increase on average the higher the rate of SBA per SBO. When that rate is low, only the very best base stealers are running. When that rate is high, more runners are going and the CS% should be higher. This is gone over with an in depth example on the original page.

by WURoyal on Dec 15, 2009 11:27 PM EST up reply actions  

If you want to continue a conversation

you’re now going to have to convince me you actually read the post, rather than just the parts which blinked and attracted your attention. Why?

I don’t care, it’s just important to recognize that in either case you are assuming that this catcher had an above league average CS rate

You have somehow utterly missed the fact that this “recognition” you speak of was one of the key points of the center of my essay. You know, where I actually use italics to stress the point that “A catcher who throws out 40% of basestealers is better than average.”

I mean, you just indicated you’re not actually reading anything at all, just talking to hear yourself talk. That seriously offends me, in a scientific discussion.

What you’re talking about is at its heart nothing more than simple regression to the mean. To presume that a low rate of steal attempts is indicative of anything isn’t really wise. For instance, one could play in a division with three other teams who actively eschew the stolen base as a weapon, in which case most SBA are actually blown hit-and-runs or the like and have nothing at all to do with “the best base stealers” running. (And no, this is not a wild hyperbole to make a point; indeed, it’s called “the AL West”.)

Conversely, one could play in the same division as a player who is lightning quick and has the green light and runs like a chicken with its head cut off despite the fact that he’s a horrible base stealer; meanwhile, the rest of the team only runs in high-leverage situations with a high probability of success. That completely skews your supposition.

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by jonfmorse on Dec 16, 2009 6:55 AM EST up reply actions  

I apologize if I offended you, it was certainly not my intent and I did read the post but I think the assumptions you make lead to an unsustainable result. The general framework for this type of calculation is well established.

To presume that a low rate of steal attempts is indicative of anything isn’t really wise.

1. These type of assumptions about normal distributions are implicit in most of the statistical analysis that are being performed. Without some assumption of normality we are conceding that the Runs above or below major league average will have virtually no meaningful correlation to talent, and will not be helpful in any future projection. It’s another reason why we should adjust for pitcher and runners faced to get the same result, but without the normality assumption, your counting stat will have no use beyond a given year and even in that given year will not be helpful in any comparison between catchers. Like you said, a model that doesn’t work at the ends of the bell curve right?
 

Additionally, we would expect the opposing team to run when:

expected run value of a SB > (Estimated probability of catching the runner)*(expected run value of a CS)

The fact they did not attempt to run says something about their perceived chances of success and also about the marginal value of a run in that context. The fact that the CS rate was high means that for X number of runners, the probability of them being caught was higher than perceived. In doing projections, we would never expect those X runners to run again (unless we add in numerous factors like the marginal utility of a run in any given context). To give the credit for the CS in this instance is important to show the run value actually given by a catcher, but it does not actually say much about his true value going forward or ability in relation to other catchers.

by WURoyal on Dec 16, 2009 12:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Disagree.
The fact they did not attempt to run says something about their perceived chances of success and also about the marginal value of a run in that context.

In this day and age, teams choosing not to run says more about philosophy than anything else. In truth, you can’t even project or model how often one would expect runners to go on a league-wide basis; you might be able to with specific runners or specific teams, but since there are wildly divergent philosophies on the efficacy of the SB, the league average for attempts is an utterly meaningless data point, I’m afraid.

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by jonfmorse on Dec 16, 2009 12:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Essentially, my previous arguments were indictments of using the CS rate to determine projected value over the course of a season. The CS rate is going to be dependent on the number of SBA per SB Opportunity (SBO) which will determine the quality of the runners.

I acknowledge the general framework, however, in determining the value of a catching base runners.

It is always better for your team if opposing teams run and

expected run value of a SB < (Probability of catching the runner)*(expected run value of a CS)

by WURoyal on Dec 15, 2009 7:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Unfortunatly, the metrics you put forth on how to measure a cathers arm are not very good.

There are other variables in basestealing and in throwing out runners or not having them run,

1. Pitchers have an enormous impact due to time taken to deliver a pitch, his deceptiveness when delivering a pitch and how well he pays attention to basestealers, what kind of pitches he throws and so forth. This is somewhat further complecated because some of this is partially due to the catcher as well.

2. Catchers can’t just get people out, the fielder has to tag the runner, and if you have a good tagger or a bad tagger can effect the percentages.

3. Not enough data points to tell how good a catcher is at throwing out runners to a very good percentage.

4. Speed of the runners in the players divsion, and how many close games a team plays, if opposing managers like to run, or play hit and run and so forth, a lot of caught stealings are not straight steals.

          Basically, a catcher would be better measured for his arm by seeing how fast and accurately he can throw to second base, Using caught stealing percentages or number of runners that run on him as how good his arm is has to real bearing on how many runs he saves with his arm. Catcher caught stealing percentages are best measured with a stopwatch and not stats.
 

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by BabyBlues on Dec 15, 2009 6:58 PM EST reply actions  

I'm not talking about measuring his arm.

I’m talking about his effectiveness (or lack thereof) at preventing baserunner advancement.

Frankly, we don’t care how good his arm is. That’s for scouts.

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by jonfmorse on Dec 15, 2009 7:01 PM EST up reply actions  

I see what you are saying

but I’m not sure it matters that much. The framework provided here does an excellent job at demonstrating how good a catcher was at preventing runners from advancing. It does necessarily demonstrate how good a catcher will be in the future. What I mean is, it’s not an absolute.

If two catchers have fairly similar numbers, then this metric is not very useful. This is probably the case when comparing Buck and Kendall. Neither one is great at defense, and the difference between the two is practically impossible to quantify precisely. However, it is extremely useful for getting an idea of how a catcher rates compared to other catchers. The variables you mention above probably largely even out over large sample sizes, but some non-statistical observations come into play when making individual comparisons. e.g. Olivo got to catch for Greinke

by KCBear on Dec 15, 2009 8:44 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd suggest, in support of your comments

that this framework proves your hypothesis, as well; it demonstrates that over the course of a season, you’ve either got to be really damned good or really damned bad at throwing out baserunners for the differences to become significant.

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by jonfmorse on Dec 15, 2009 10:51 PM EST up reply actions  

whoa there

Is the point whether buck is better than special k?

I thought the point was which is actually a better result statistically for the royals in terms of run expectancy. Base stealers attempting with mixed success, or not trying to run.

BA might not show whether a hitter is better or worse, but getting a hit vs. making an out definitely affects run expectancy.

At least Wally Joyner's not on the team....

by tcon125 on Dec 16, 2009 10:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd probably agree that CS% is pointless for this purpose.

Of course, that’s not what I was doing up there. CS% is a rate stat; what I was suggesting was a modified counting stat.

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by jonfmorse on Dec 15, 2009 10:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Also, as far as the mythical 70% stolen base line,,,

     Although the 70% line is correct, there is some problems with that as well. If a manager calls for a hit and run the runner is not trying to steal second, he is trying to avoid a double play and make a hole for the batter to hit through. He still gets credits with a caught stealing when he gets thrown out. I would imagine in straight steals that the percentage stolen is much higher then in busted hit and runs, so the 70% line is too high. It is most likely more like 65%. Thus making the feared catcher more valuable, or the value of double play percentage needs to be applied to not stealing players and leave the 70% as the base if you want. That is a potential .47 runs everytime there is less then two outs and the runner does not go, times whatever the percentage of grounding out into a double play is.

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by BabyBlues on Dec 15, 2009 10:51 PM EST reply actions  

I think you're vastly over-estimating

the incidence of blown hit-and-runs resulting in a CS. And I’m not sure it matters anyway; a blown hit-and-run still results in the runner attempting to advance, regardless of his motives. It still results in either moving up a base with no out cost, or losing both an out and a baserunner.

Now, if you want to suggest that this isn’t meaningful in measuring catcher defense, that might be valid; however, I would then have to suggest that for the same reason absolutely NO metric which uses anything having to do with stolen bases is meaningful in regard to measuring catcher defense.

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by jonfmorse on Dec 15, 2009 10:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Basically yes, caught stealing percentage is like BA for hitters,.

     You can’t use it because pitchers, two other fielders, and both managers and the runner are involved in the outcome, oh, and the catcher. Just see what the stopwatch says and that is what thier value of thier arm is. At the end of the day its more accurate.

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by BabyBlues on Dec 15, 2009 11:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, because the stopwatch

tells you all about how often the guy sails the ball into center field, or how many hops it takes to get to second base.

The point, which I think you’re actually going overboard to refuse to see, is that in order to determine the impacts of other factors in the first place, you have to measure the catchers and look for deviations. If you break down the catchers over a period of years and then determine that year-to-year catcher defense data seems to be about as relevant as year-to-year batting average, then great. We’ve proven something.

If, on the other hand, the defense data shows clear trends for this catcher and that catcher and most of the other catchers, it’s not irrelevant. But you don’t know that until you actually do it, rather than claiming it’s utterly irrelevant before you even start.

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by jonfmorse on Dec 16, 2009 6:59 AM EST up reply actions  

to be fair

watching Bloomquist trying to execute a hit-and-run resulting in him inevitably blow it with DDJ getting thrown out and everyone bitching about DDJ will bias a fan

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by Matt Klaassen on Dec 15, 2009 11:13 PM EST up reply actions  

So does this get put into all the WAR calculations?

Or is it just a separate thing?

This makes sense when you break into %‘s. Over the last 2 seasons, what the percentages for Buck, Olivo, Brayan, and Kendall? I think it’d be an interesting comparison.

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by 306008 on Dec 16, 2009 9:25 AM EST reply actions  

Nice work jonfmorse

Is there any sort of catching SB related stat to take into account the pitchers?

For instance, Olivo’s CS % took a big drop this year despite getting to be the sole catcher for Greinke, who is amazing at holding runners.

Meanwhile, Buck got to spend more time catching Hochevar and Davies — guys who have reputations of being poor (in Hoch’s case, extremely poor) at holding runners. I would assume that teams are going to run – and probably be successful — at a higher rate against young pitchers with slow moves to the plate, regardless of how big of a cannon the catcher has.

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by Top Ramen on Dec 16, 2009 11:50 AM EST reply actions  

Without looking, that's probably the biggest reason for Olivo's drop, as he caught way more than Buck did

Hochevar allowed 19 steals in 23 attempts in 2009 and allowed 14 of 18 in 2008.

Olivo’s getting old though, probably partly decline as well.

by AxDxMx on Dec 16, 2009 12:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Nobody ever ran on Johnny Bench

How much do you figure that helped the Big Red Machine in ‘75? My guess is “just a little,” and that the 800-1000 OPS of everyone in the starting lineup, including Joe Morgan’s career year, was the biggest factor. If you’re scoring a ton of runs, allowing a few stolen bases more might mean you lose a game or two a year.

What if you’re not scoring a lot of runs, though? I guess what that means is you should prioritize improving your lousy hitting, because you’re going to lose whether your catcher throws out / intimidates baserunners or not.

Bench had enormous hands. I remember seeing a photo of him holding five baseballs in one. Amazing.

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by Juancho on Dec 16, 2009 4:51 PM EST reply actions  

it may have helped

but it may have hurt too! what if they had an average catcher with the 30/20 line. Doesn’t that actually help!

At least Wally Joyner's not on the team....

by tcon125 on Dec 16, 2009 10:21 PM EST up reply actions  

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