Yankees Interested In Meche?
"Yankees GM Brian Cashman will "almost certainly add a starter by New Year's," reports Mike Puma of the New York Post...
A few...names to consider from our trade market post: Derek Lowe, Aaron Harang, and Gil Meche (we're unsure on the availability of Meche)."
This is a totally unfounded rumor, but if the Royals can unload $12MM for a prospect, should they do it? Even if Meche produces $12MM of value?
about 2 years ago
Boots 58
47 comments
0 recs |
Comments
Yes
Meche has been good, but even if he’s worth $12M next season (which he has a good chance of being), there’s no surplus, and even if there was, he won’t be around for the Royals next contending team.
Frankly, the Royals should expect too much back given the lack of likely surplus… although what could it hurt to at least ask for Montero (well, I don’t know how good he REALLY is or anything, could be more Yankee prospect overhype a la A-Jax).
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this is where these silly $/win stats break down
there is no way you can argue the marginal value of a win is worth the same to the Yankees as it is to the Royals. This is exactly the type of asymetry that the royals could leverage, a player who is desired by another team, provides limited long-term value to the organization here, but could return significant long-term assets through a trade.
The ‘surplus’ is different for the Royals and Yankees and could expect nice value
Too bad Meche is not actually desired by the Yankees
by Gopherballs on Dec 21, 2009 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
And here you are with your own groundless rumors
Who told you that they aren’t?
by Boots 58 on Dec 21, 2009 12:40 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
+1
I was about to say that it doesn’t work like this when dealing with the Yankees. The Yankees will want the best pitcher they can get, and Meche is pretty good when he is not injured. The Royals have to think differently.
And since there's definitely no reason to imagine he'll be hurt next year
and pitchers don’t generally decline in their 30s, they should give up a player who’s as good/better than him and half the price, and CF who could start for many teams and making the minimum, AND a prospect for him.
That sounds like Brian Cashman to me. Look how he got shafted in the Granderson trade!
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by Matt Klaassen on Dec 21, 2009 12:51 PM EST up reply actions
I agree with his risks with age and injury
But I didnt mention or comment on who he would be traded for. And if this kind of trade did happen we might even have to pay for some of his salary. I was simply agreeing with Zeppelin, who better elaborated on his point below (which you have also commented on again)
I don't think he's saying that the Yankees definitely want Meche or that they'll give up a ton for him
He and Zeppelin are rightly pointing out that the marginal value of a win is different for the Yankees and that the financial scarcity issues are different for them (to put it very lightly). I don’t think they are too worried about a “lack of likely surplus.” They may well be worried about Meche’s age and/or injury situation.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions
I assume you mean for Gardner
Since Swisher is likely to be more valuable than Meche next season.
Now, I acknowledge the limitations of WAR/$ in certain situations… but as the post I haven’t written yet shows, Brett Gardner is probably at a 2 WAR player, maybe better. I guess they Yankees could spend an extras $10M for the extra half-win they might get fvrom Johnny Damon.. but even they shouldn’t do that. (Putting Granderson in LF, Gardner in CF, Swisher in RF makes sense, but they won’t do it).
I also allow for the possibility that Montero might make sense for them to trade, although let’s not go nuts over Meche, who’s probably going to be 2.5 WAR next season.
Then again, maybe I’m using the wrong Model. After all, if J. C. Bradbury thinks Jeff Francoeur is worth $12M/per, Gil Meche is probably worth 10-15 times what he’s going to be paid, right?
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by Matt Klaassen on Dec 21, 2009 12:49 PM EST up reply actions
I'd put Meche at closer to 3.5 WAR
Pitchers his age aren’t exactly falling off of a cliff. And in addition to his 2009 stats, I can’t ignore the numbers he put up in 2007 and 2008. I think a 2.5 WAR projection requires an assumption of him missing 1/4 or more of the season.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2009 1:39 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Also
I don’t know what Joel Pineiro is going to get in FA, but probably not much more than Meche is going to make, and he’s almost as good as Meche. So why give up the same money and a good prospect?
Or John Garland will come much cheaper on a one-year contract, and Meche isn’t a win better than him. That leaves the Yanks money to get Matt Holliday, who is one of the few players left that might actually upgrade their position players.
Just my thoughts, though. If you were the Yankees, would you trade Swisher or Montero for Meche?
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by Matt Klaassen on Dec 21, 2009 12:57 PM EST up reply actions
I think you've missed the point I was making
it is usually not a good idea to compare the value of players based on contracual surplus/losses, instead, players should be valued on wins added. You make plenty of good arguments on the relative value of Meche vs. Gardner vs. Swisher, etc., and I’ll respectfully difer to your expertise on those numbers. You are likely right in terms of who will win more games.
The point remains, however, that contractual surplusses only make sense in the context of individual teams, and do not relate to other teams in any reasonable fashion. The Yankees will always have more to gain from a win (thus pay more for it) than the Royals will. The fact that we get to deal with the extreme cases here should make this all the more obvious.
As for the Francoeur thing, I believe you misunderstood what JC did. He looked at how teams paid for stats. i.e. he demonstarted that teams do indeed overpay for things like RBIs. He said Francoeur was worth that in the historical context, but teams have become much more aware of what wins games (except DM, who pays that much for the very similar JG). Yes Francoeur isn’t worth that now, but had he played 10 years ago? I bet he would make a lot more than you think.
Hmm... interesting point on Francoeur
I never did really understand the Bradbury debates… it seemed too crazy to be true
Please DO NOT “defer” to my so-called “expertise.” I’m just like any other fan on here, in that I can look up projections. Please DO “differ” from my statements if you think they are wrongheaded— that’s how progress happens. Or at least interesting discussion.
I guess I should stick with the more solid point that perhaps can be made more clearly and maybe we can then agree (or disagree!): The Yankees should not trade Swisher for MEche, as Meche is at best equal in value to Swisher, and Swisher makes less money, and the Yankees don’t have other RF options. Unless they’re going to sign Matt HOlliday or Jason Bay, the Yankees don’t hav a better option than putting Brett Gardnerin the OF, and he’s almost as valuable as Meche, and they can use the money better elsewhere… like signing a starter almost as good as Meche.
Montero is the more interesting issue, I guess… I don’t think they’d do it, but I leave the “should” issue up to people who know prospects better than I.
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by Matt Klaassen on Dec 21, 2009 1:21 PM EST up reply actions
yes thank you
defer is the word i wanted there, a combination of both typing and spelling incompetancies on my part
and on Bradbury
he still believed JF was worth 12 mil for awhile (so make fun of him for that). that was his mistake to not understand the structural change that has happened to baseball over the last decades as stats have become more in-depth.
but if you do a basic regression of BA, RBIs, HR, etc. to salary, it would look pretty silly these days, but I bet that it used to hold fairly well.
IMO, theres no way the Yanks trade Montero for Meche....
he’s all theyve got as far as position prospects….and their bats are getting really, really old
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2009 6:27 PM EST up reply actions
Would Swisher, Gardner, A ball pitcher do it?
Yes, I'm still alive. Sorry to disappoint you.
by royaldaddy on Dec 21, 2009 12:14 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I'd take either Swisher or Gardner straight up
and the Royals would win that trade
Yanks are crazy to be considering trading Swisher… who’s going to play RF? Johnny “I’m glad Coco got hurt, otherwise I’d have the worst arm in baseball” Damon? And Swisher’s cheap. He’s as valuable as Meche, at least, and costs half as much.
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by Matt Klaassen on Dec 21, 2009 12:19 PM EST up reply actions
Montero and Gardner
If they say no, then Gardner and a different prospect. Do we really want Swisher?
I'd rather have Gardner
but Swisher is at least as valuable as Meche, and cheaper, thus having surplus value the Royals could turn into prospects.
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by Matt Klaassen on Dec 21, 2009 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
no way we are getting Montero for Meche
This is the Yankees we are talking about—the one team that could absorb an albatross of a contract: Meche and Guillen for Gardner
Is It Too
Soon to trade Kendall?
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Dec 21, 2009 3:44 PM EST up reply actions
That would be awesome
although Meche and Guillen for nothing would actually be a good deal for the Royals — their version of halladay and Wells for nothing.
I didn’t think they’d do Montero, of course.
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by Matt Klaassen on Dec 21, 2009 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
Here's a nice example of a completely fake "rumor"
New York reporter notes that the Yankees may be interested in adding a starter. Gil Meche is not mentioned.
But when mlbtraderumors.com links the story, Dierkes suddenly mentions Meche as someone listed in a previous post that the site did. He at least notes that he’s “unsure on the availability of Meche.”
The mlbtraderumors.com link then gets linked here as “Yankees Interested in Meche?” even though there is zero basis to suggest that the Yankees might have interest in Meche.
Mlbtraderumors.com is a nice clearinghouse site, but sometimes I wonder if everytime that site mentions a player on a specific team, someone on its payroll goes onto that team’s blogs just to link to the mlbtraderumors.com link in effort to increase the number of hits. It seems lately everytime the Royals are mentioned — even in a worthless rumor like Meche to the Yankees — a link pops up here.
I linked it for discussion
And yes, me or other people on this site link whenever there is a “rumor” of a Royal to be traded. (And NO, as far as I know none of us work for MLBTR). As a fan of baseball, I follow that site to see what kind of moves are being made around the league. When I see something that Royals fans could be interested in, I link it here. If these things dont interest you, I suggest you don’t look at the Fanshots area.
You can clearly hover over the link to see that it deals with the Yankees adding a starter. And I just included the part that deals with the royals. I realize this is not the most credible rumor, but wanted to link it to see if people thought getting rid of Meche was a good idea or not. Seriously should there only be links on this site for deals that have actually occurred?
Thanks for you input to the discussion. You really helped contribute!
This is not the ESPN boards
Discussion is fine and linking articles is fine, but linking to a wholly made up rumor and presenting it as an actual rumor is pretty pointless and a waste of time.
by Gopherballs on Dec 21, 2009 12:59 PM EST up reply actions
Boots: just qualifying it in the Fanshot description would help, such as “In a totally unsubstantiated rumor, MLBTR is reporting that….”
You used to know me as benf.... Now you know my true identity...MacGyver
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Dec 21, 2009 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
That is fair
And changed accordingly.
I still feel that this article belongs on the site though. I enjoy people talking about the Royals on this site, and in the off season when there isn’t a lot to discuss, even unfounded rumors are worth discussing.
But in the linked story, there isn't even a suggestion that the Yankees are interested in Meche
The only information out there is that the Yankees want a SP. Dierkes then listed some possibly available pitchers. There isn’t even a rumor of a rumor that the Yankees are interested in Meche.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2009 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
Reminds me of cable news
When there is no substantiation of a rumor, they simply bring on a right or left-leaning blogger and the headline underneath is:
“Is President Obama Kenyan?”
or “Does President Bush Hate Black People?”
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
NO and YES
apology accepted
You used to know me as benf.... Now you know my true identity...MacGyver
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Dec 21, 2009 5:23 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You're a liberal and make the baby Jesus cry
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Dec 21, 2009 5:51 PM EST up reply actions
Why's everyone wanting Gardner or Swisher?
Is Melky just off limits or something?
Gardner and Swisher are both better players
2009 WAR’s:
Cabrera – 1.6
Gardner – 2.1
Swisher – 3.5
Plus, Gardner is a year younger than Melky, and a MUCH better defender (especially in CF). Melky likely wouldn’t be much of an upgrade, if any, over DDJ in CF.
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae
"I was doing this when BJ was in his father's nutsack." -Renzo Gracie
by Sweep_the_Leg on Dec 21, 2009 2:58 PM EST up reply actions
Not to mention that Gardner only played in 100 ish games
compared to 154 for Cabrera.
I refuse to set up a signature....DAMMIT
And their projections for 2010 are similar to that
2010 projection
Cabrera – 1.4
Gardner – 2.5 (as a part-time player)
Swisher – 3.3
There really isn’t much reason to want Melky at all. He’s a below average player and he’s no longer dirt cheap. Gardner is better, cheaper and has more years of team control. Swisher is better than all of them, but more expensive. But his contract still makes him a bargain, given his production.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2009 5:15 PM EST up reply actions
On another note
Where do you find 2010 Projected WAR?
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
Two easiest main sources
1) Easy way: FanGraphs player pages have fan projections on them. I think they’re actually pretty good (and by the way, everyone here should go be and enter them for all the Royals and more!)
2) Slightly harder: go to CHONE’s www.baseballprojection.com and look at each team’s page. The pitcher listings have projected RAR (to get basic WAR, just divide by 10; relievers are not leveraged) For position players, rally has context-neutral offensive lwts per 150 games listed for his projections, then a TotalZone defensive projection for the player’s listed position. The defensive projections are of varying value — TotalZone is good, but it isn’t UZR, and the OF ones in particular can be troublesome. You can also use Jeff Zimmeman’s UZR projections from BtBS. Anyway, to get projected RAR/150, just add Rally’s lwts to whatever defensive projetion, then do a positional adjustment. These are really approriate for 162 games, but for 150 it’s close enough:
DH: -17.5
1B -12.5
LF/RF -7.5
2B/3B/CF +2.5
SS +7.5
C +12.5
You can use different ones if you want, of course, not everyone agrees with these.
or
3) You can just wait for nerds at FanGraphs and elsewhere to talk about the player, or, if you’re REALLy desparate
4) you can ask me. My projections are either taken fro CHONE or from my own crappy projections. That’s not woth much in general, but I’m pretty vain.
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.
Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 23, 2009 10:13 PM EST up reply actions
Two questions about Meche's "availability"
Would he waive his partial no-trade clause to play for the Yankees?
And, do the Yankees have the most useless starting shortstop in the majors to trade to us?
Would he waive his partial no-trade clause to play for the Yankees?
Typically “partial no-trade clause” means that there is a list of teams in the player’s contract to which he cannot be traded without his consent. Usually those teams are perennial losers, like the Royals. I doubt the Yankees are on that list.
And, do the Yankees have the most useless starting shortstop in the majors to trade to us?
I’d do Yuni for Jeter (plus cash).
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2009 5:17 PM EST up reply actions
Some savvy agents have started including the Yankees and Red Sox on their client's no-trade lists
This came up around the deadline last year, but I forget which player (or players) it was. The general idea is that the Yankees and Red Sox are more likely to trade for a player making a decent salary (as you would expect among players with enough leverage to obtain a no trade clause), so the agent can use the threat of veto to extract extra compensation out of the team trading for his player (and from a team more likely to pay the extra compensation). Plus, some teams like the Marlins or Pirates are unlikely to trade for a high priced player, so there is no need to waste a veto spot on them.
Meche’s deal is three years old, so I doubt his agent employed this strategy.
No trade clauses
Are basically just ways for players to get more money. They nearly always waive them if someone agrees to pay them a bit more for their trouble.
I think I also read that Gil’s NTC has expired.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
Is Gil Meche old enough to have the attitude
of “I just want to play for a winner?” He’d be crazy not to take a trade to the Yankees. I wonder if the Yankees would be interested in a guy who shut it down in September due to arm injury/fatigue.
If KC could get one ML player and a B level prospect, it would be a good deal. Yankees are taking all Meche sizable salary, too.
of "I just want to play for a winner?" He’d be crazy not to take a trade to the Yankees. I wonder if the Yankees would be interested in a guy who shut it down in September due to arm injury/fatigue.
Pavano, Jaret Wright, AJ Burnett, CC after throwing 6,000 innings in Sept/Oct, Kevin Brown, etc…
I don’t think they’d mind taking a risk on an ‘extended’ SP.
BOOM! ROASTED!












