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Around SBN: The Amateur Mathematics Of Linsanity

not only do the enormous money latin prospects have a bad track record, but this can happen.

almost 3 years ago Zackgreinke2_tiny doublestix 56 comments 0 recs  | 

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colt griffin, stodolka, matt smith, kyle snyder....

perhaps we should stop using our first round draft pick as well?

TPJ...you're dead to me

by billybeingbilly on Feb 18, 2009 2:48 AM EST reply actions  

On the other hand

Prospects usually fail. Even most first round picks. Even most top 10 picks.

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Feb 18, 2009 2:53 AM EST up reply actions  

thats what i was saying....

not trying to do something b/c you’re afraid of failure is a sure way to fail…and really, say we sign 72 $500k on average LA guys, do you think their major league contribution will more than likely exceed that of Jose Guillen? Well, I guess FA signings are out, as are high draft picks and LA guys. We’ve still got the far east.

Not really trying to attack you, but to stop signing LA guys (or drafting guys in the 1st round, or signing FAS) b/c of its’ failure rate is a sure fire way to be a horrible franchise

TPJ...you're dead to me

by billybeingbilly on Feb 18, 2009 3:09 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't think anyone would suggest that the Royals should stop siging LA guys

Doublestix said it was a bad idea to “dish out insane amounts to Latin [American] prospects.” Now, I can only speculate as to what he meant by “insane amounts.” But to me, signing a toolsy 16-year-old for $2+ million is a stupid way to spend money because they are the most speculative, most questionable, most likely to fail kinds of prospects. And, IIRC, the Athletics signed Inoa for $4M. I do think that’s insane. Well, maybe if you’re one of the richest teams, that’s a decent way to spend $4M. But if you have limited resources, then it’s pretty stupid. However, I think signing 10 players for a total of $2 million makes a lot of sense. Investing in L.A. scouting, acquisitions and development is a very good thing for any organization. But spread the money around. It’s better to spend moderate and lower amounts of money on many lottery tickets than to dump most of your money on one lottery ticket.

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Feb 18, 2009 3:19 AM EST up reply actions  

I guess we just differ on philosophies....

I’d prefer to give $4 million to Inoa who by all accounts is a prospect of the most elite potential with virtually no ceiling, with a high risk of failure than to give money to guys like Bloomquist and Gload. You do realize that is what is being compared, right? Bloomquist, Gload and the extra $2 million were paying our backup C vs. the limitless potential of Inoa. Put me in the camp that wants to take the risk that actually has the chance of paying off.

TPJ...you're dead to me

by billybeingbilly on Feb 18, 2009 3:41 AM EST up reply actions  

And what happens if Inoa suddenly turns 23?

It makes sense to invest in LA players, but it’s more risky than usual because there are even more unknowns than with draftable (did I make the word up?) prospects.

by BrRoyal on Feb 18, 2009 9:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Meh

The previous highest bonuses for a LA player were Wily Mo Pena and Joel Guzman, both of whom have been busts. Being the top prospect upon signing is not much of a guarantee of anything. I’d rather have a lot of good prospects than one great one.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Feb 18, 2009 9:38 AM EST up reply actions  

Thats not a fair comparison

because those guys are 19+. You are talking about 16 year olds. Would you rather have Dan Duffy or John Flanagan at 16 years old. Duffy was 5’4 and Flanagan was over 6’. Who is the better prospect now?

I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.

by kcscoliny on Feb 18, 2009 11:50 AM EST up reply actions  

Right

When you’re talking about such a crapshoot as projecting 16 year olds playing in unequal competition in the Dominican, better to hedge your bets.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Feb 18, 2009 11:57 AM EST up reply actions  

Inoa isnt 5'4 though....

he’s 6’7 with a mid 90’s fb and supposedly already a very good curveball. He’s already got major league stuff…and how many pitchers’ stuff doesnt improve from 16-21?

TPJ...you're dead to me

by billybeingbilly on Feb 18, 2009 12:00 PM EST up reply actions  

At 16 yo

it is impossible to know if a player is gonna improve. A team is better off grabbing 20 guys at 200k with potential than one at 4M. Teams have enought problems evaluating mature talent (Santana, Soria, etc) and now you want them to become experts on 16 yo. Hedge your bets is the better way to do it. Look at KC they’ve got Rosa, Fortuna, Herrera in just the last couple years. Spend the money on the academy and grab bunches of talent and develop them as opposed to grabbing one player.

I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.

by kcscoliny on Feb 18, 2009 12:51 PM EST up reply actions  

thats fine...you guys have your philosophy...

and i have mine. But I think I’ll take Inoa in a heartbeat. The thing with Inoa though is, his stuff doesnt even have to improve, though it likely will, to be as good of a prospect as any of those pitchers in the royals system…

TPJ...you're dead to me

by billybeingbilly on Feb 18, 2009 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I’d prefer to give $4 million to Inoa who by all accounts is a prospect of the most elite potential with virtually no ceiling, with a high risk of failure than to give money to guys like Bloomquist and Gload.

Come on. Did I say that speding the money on Gload and Bloomquist makes more sense than giving it to Inoa? I also didn’t say that the Royals should spend $4M on magic beans rather than Inoa. What I said was that spending the money on a bunch of Latin prospects makes more sense than betting a lot of money on one guy.

You do realize that is what is being compared, right?

Only by you. Doublestix and I had only compared “insane amounts of money” to L.A. prospects against the amateur draft or by spending that money on multiple L.A. prospects.

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Feb 18, 2009 3:40 PM EST up reply actions  

im down for either one....

the only problem with trying to get your high ceiling potential superstars….is that your opportunities are much more limited. there arent that many guys that fall. In LA, pretty much anyone can get the top guys if they so choose (Inoa being an exception for turning down more money)

TPJ...you're dead to me

by billybeingbilly on Feb 18, 2009 9:41 PM EST up reply actions  

there it is

Founder of the Johnny Giavotella fan club.

by doublestix on Feb 18, 2009 3:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Agree with that philosophy

Quantity over quality. It seems like its really hard to scout these guys and determine who is really the best. Hedge your bets.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Feb 18, 2009 9:38 AM EST up reply actions  

true

most of those guys lied about their age.

the day I found out Griffin was actually 57…

Founder of the Johnny Giavotella fan club.

by doublestix on Feb 18, 2009 3:00 AM EST up reply actions  

No, we should avoid giving multi-million dollar signing bonuses to the kind of prospect which has the highest failure rate (by far).

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Feb 18, 2009 3:20 AM EST up reply actions  

read rany's study....

HS 1b have the highest failure rate of any draft picks

TPJ...you're dead to me

by billybeingbilly on Feb 18, 2009 3:48 AM EST up reply actions  

and i'm narrowing it

if i remember right, rany’s study was looking back farther and looked at the entire first round. to be drafted in the top 10 or 15 as a 1B requires basically a sure thing that scouts drool over. and i limited it to 10 yeras because scouting has gotten way better in recent years.

Founder of the Johnny Giavotella fan club.

by doublestix on Feb 18, 2009 3:55 AM EST up reply actions  

yes, and im pretty sure adrian gonzalez is...

the only HS 1b before hosmer drafted in that time period. Thats a pretty small sample size that you’re using. I’ll take Ranys study. With that being said, I’m not at all against the Hosmer pick. I think he has the most superstar potential, which is what i’d be looking for if I were running the royals…and I’d do the same later in the draft and in Latin America. Inoa is by all accounts every bit the prospect that Hosmer is. When signing a pitcher at 16, you can remove some of the risk of injury b/c you have professionals in charge of his development, doing what is best for the player and the mlb team long term…as opposed to a HS or college coach who is probably more concerned with winning

TPJ...you're dead to me

by billybeingbilly on Feb 18, 2009 4:01 AM EST up reply actions  

hell i can go back farther than that

2004…Billy Butler – who knows, like his chances though
2002…Prince Fielder – he’s good
2001…Casey Kotchman – about average
2000…Adrian Gonzalez – stud
1994…Paul Konerko – was excellent (drafted as C, but everyone knew he was gonig to 1B)
1993…Derrek Lee – above average
1991…Dmitri Young – was pretty good

Founder of the Johnny Giavotella fan club.

by doublestix on Feb 18, 2009 4:04 AM EST up reply actions  

finally

1990 – 6th overall pick Mark Newfield. last top 15 HS 1B that was a bust

Founder of the Johnny Giavotella fan club.

by doublestix on Feb 18, 2009 4:08 AM EST up reply actions  

jj davis...8th pick 1997....

and there are a whole bunch who fall just outside of your arbitrary sample who have been busts. That being said, look at the list down below, you’ve got 1 of the top players in the game, one of the better starting pitchers, a dominant closer for a couple years, one major failure in Tsao, a couple pushes/might be too early in Pena/Guzman, and a bunch that are too early to tell, but look very good with minor league numbers to back them up

TPJ...you're dead to me

by billybeingbilly on Feb 18, 2009 4:17 AM EST up reply actions  

all I'm saying in this whole thread....

is that franchises like the Royals, NEED to take risks like this. They NEED to go after the guys with the absolute highest ceilings. The royals arent going to win championships b/c they’re signing guys like Bloomy and Farns, they’re going to win b/c they hit on a couple guys at the same time who become studs. Im not opposed to spreading the money around in LA, ,but I also dont think you should shy away from a guy like Inoa or Villalona b/c its too risky

TPJ...you're dead to me

by billybeingbilly on Feb 18, 2009 3:52 AM EST up reply actions  

i don't know how bloomquist and Farns have anything to do with this

their on two completely different budgets. i’ve never disagreed with what your saying anyways.

Founder of the Johnny Giavotella fan club.

by doublestix on Feb 18, 2009 4:10 AM EST up reply actions  

the royals budget is the royals budget....

thats how I see it. If you waste money at the major league level, you in theory have less money available should you find a talent in LA or round 8 that you would like to sign or vice versa.

i wouldve absolutely loved for the royals to try to sign and succeed in signing every one of inoa, duran, rafael rodriguez, atis portillo and the rest of the guys in the top 10….$20 million? no problem. it’d be better for the franchise in the long run

TPJ...you're dead to me

by billybeingbilly on Feb 18, 2009 4:23 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes, they need to take risks

And they need to spend limited resources on the best risks. And spending your money on 20 $200K L.A. prospects makes a lot more sense than spending it on one $4M L.A. prospect. That is because you are much more likely to get one great player with the former method than with the latter. It’s just so difficult to project any very raw 16-17 yo prospect that you need to sign a bunch of toolsy guys, so that you increase your chances of having one succeed. The odds are long against any one teenager eventually succeeding in the majors, and this includes Inoa.

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Feb 18, 2009 3:45 PM EST up reply actions  

this is where i see flawed logic...

if you think that is the best philosophy in Latin America, then I dont understand why its advisable to spend $4 million on a 18 yr old hs player, when you could spend a million and have a bunch of money to go after more guys in later rounds that drop due to signability

TPJ...you're dead to me

by billybeingbilly on Feb 18, 2009 9:43 PM EST up reply actions  

There's a difference

You can get elite talent which is more refined and developed in a $4M HS draft pick. Yes every draftee is a question mark, even top 10 overall. But there is a massive difference in failure rate between top 10 draft picks and high dollar L.A. signees. In short, top 10 high school draftees are worth their multi-millions, while the most expensive L.A. FA’s are not, because of the degree of risk.

Another difference is that even if you spend $5M on your first round draft pick, your draft is still going to be diversified and include some high dollar guys, some medium-priced picks and some cheap ones. There will also likely be a mixture of high ceiling, higher risk guys and lower ceiling, lower risk guys and everything in between. However, if you spend $4M on one L.A. free agent in a given year, that probably leaves you only enough money to make sign a some lower talent, low cost guys in addition. I think that’s a poor way to spend limited resources. Buy 10-20 good lottery tickets, not just one very good lottery ticket.

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Feb 18, 2009 11:48 PM EST up reply actions  

theres the difference....

i’d rather buy a powerball ticket and have a chance at $100 million than buy $10 scratchers and maybe win a couple hundred bucks

TPJ...you're dead to me

by billybeingbilly on Feb 19, 2009 11:29 AM EST up reply actions  

some of those scratchers pay out a million and the odds of winning are far greater than the powerball.

You’ve named the few guys that signed higher deals and were successful but what about the huge amounts of players that signed small deals and were successful. That list is endless, yes there are more failures but a ton of successes doing it that way.

Teams have max budgets each season and I would rather land alot of Latin guys each year as opposed to one every season because as a whole there is a lot of talent down there and limiting the amount of guys signed by your team would be a detriment to your organization.

Look at the RC Top 60, look and see how many guys are Latin signees (quite a few). This is an opportunity for KC to build a longterm deep organization and taking the approach they are is better for an organization longterm. Inoa is a stud at 16 but I look at it like basketball he could become the next LeBron James or he could become the myriad of wannabe sure things (Felipe Lopez, Greg Oden, etc) it is a crapshoot.

I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.

by kcscoliny on Feb 19, 2009 1:27 PM EST up reply actions  

the fact that he did...

turn into lebron james has cleveland set as a franchise for years.

listen, I’m very pro-signing large numbers of latin guys as well. Im all for attempting to build the team almost entirely through your minor league system. I just think its bad strategy to avoid the top latin guys because they cost too much. If i were David Glass, I’d feel my money was much more well spent in LA and on guys like Melville that on terrible replacement level FAs. The Royals cannot and will not be able to win by going after top level FAs like Tex, CC and Arod, but by putting tons of money into the draft and LA they can hope to develop a couple and have them for 6 years

TPJ...you're dead to me

by billybeingbilly on Feb 19, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I just think its bad strategy to avoid the top latin guys because they cost too much.

Just so you’ll know, my strategy would avoid at most about five L.A. players. And we don’t even know if they are really the best five. When I’m talking about signing a bunch of players for $200-250K, that includes top 10 L.A. FA talent. It’s not like there are 10 L.A. FA’s every year that get $2M or more. There’s only a handful. Most of the top 10 and top 20 L.A. FA’s (by whatever ranking system) sign for amounts less than $500K. Signing 20 L.A. FA’s for an average of $200K each isn’t the safe, low-ceiling route. That’s the best way of getting at least one star. Giving that $4M to one guy gives you a much lower chance of getting a star.

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Feb 19, 2009 3:26 PM EST up reply actions  

That's a poor analogy

The $200K guys are powerball tickets too. Most of the L.A. FA’s who have turned into star players aren’t the ones that signed for huge sums of money. And with ultra-raw 16 year olds, it’s not like it’s easy to see which ones have true star potential. So putting the vast majority of your eggs in one 16-year-old’s basket is pretty stupid.

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Feb 19, 2009 3:20 PM EST up reply actions  

6'7 mid 90s...already with a very good curveball...

its pretty easy to see star potential in that

TPJ...you're dead to me

by billybeingbilly on Feb 19, 2009 3:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Colt Griffin had very good stuff and a projectable body

And Inoa’s curveball isn’t that good yet. It projects as something that could develop into a good MLB curveball. It isn’t there yet. It’s very inconsistent and needs significant improvement.

Sure there’s star potential in Inoa and a lot of those L.A. FA’s. But it still takes a lot of development to get a raw kid like that ready for the majors. And there are many chances to fail along the way. And they usually do.

So Inoa is one L.A. 16-year-old with star potential. I’d rather sign 20 L.A. kids with star potential.

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Feb 19, 2009 4:13 PM EST up reply actions  

you mean like….
HS 1b?

No, I mean like the ind of prospect which has the highest failure rate (by far), and that is 16-17 yo L.A. signees. Their failure rate is much, much higher than HS 1B’s. It’s called a simple cost-benefit analysis.

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Feb 18, 2009 3:42 PM EST up reply actions  

this isn't racist at all

Founder of the Johnny Giavotella fan club.

by doublestix on Feb 18, 2009 3:45 AM EST up reply actions  

That is a risk with L.A. players

It isn’t because Latinos lie. It’s because where they live allows them to lie more effectively. Anglo prospects in the U.S. would lie about their age if they could, but they can’t. Even current immigration procedures, it is not so easy for L.A. players to lie about their age anymore, but it is easier than for native born Americans. It is entirely easy for Cubans to lie about their age because there is no way for the U.S. to check or verify their ages. So they always lie. That isn’t because Cubans are liars. It’s because they can.

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Feb 18, 2009 3:48 PM EST up reply actions  

of the top international signing bonuses of all time other than Inoa....

2008 Rafael Rodriguez, of, Giants $2.55 million—way to early to tell
1999 Wily Mo Pena, of, Yankees $2.44 million—not a huge success, but not a real failure either
2001 Joel Guzman, ss, Dodgers $2.255 million—not successful so far, but he’s still only 24
1999 Byung-Hyun Kim, rhp, Diamondba $2.25 million—worth it
1999 Chin-Hui Tsao, rhp, Rockies $2.20 million—not worth it
2006 Angel Villalona, 3b, Giants $2.1 million—too early but looking very promising
2008 Juan Duran, of, Reds $2.0 million—too early
2000 Chien-Ming Wang, rhp, Yankees $1.91 million—huge sucess
1999 Miguel Cabrera, 3b, Marlins $1.8 million—ding ding ding…his value alone makes up for all the money on this list….
2006 Jesus Montero, c, Yankees $1.65 million—looking very very good

TPJ...you're dead to me

by billybeingbilly on Feb 18, 2009 3:47 AM EST reply actions  

Comparing the Asian guys to the Latin guys is a big mistake. The Asian guys go to college, play compareable pro ball. The Latin guys are 16 yo projections. Pena is a failure when you consider the initial money given him. How many 2M+ guys do you think Glass will give money to that don’t pan out before he shut that operation down?

I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.

by kcscoliny on Feb 18, 2009 11:55 AM EST up reply actions  

At first I thought this post

was going to be about A-Roid’s “cousin”.

Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!

by cmkeller on Feb 18, 2009 7:59 AM EST reply actions  

I'm sure he has cousins

What sounds made up is the idea that some no-name cousin from out of town could actually tempt a millionaire pro baseball player with questionable substances, especially when it’s now well known that there were plenty of influences and sources for it within baseball, and from (formerly) reputable pharamceutical companies, in very recognizable forms.

Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!

by cmkeller on Feb 18, 2009 8:16 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm tired of the Nationals getting ripped off by those worldly Latin prospects!

Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary since sometime in 2008.

by Matt Klaassen on Feb 18, 2009 9:26 AM EST reply actions  

Karma is a bitch

Weren’t they the team that were being investigated for having scouts skim bonus money off the top from prospects?

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Feb 18, 2009 9:40 AM EST up reply actions  

yup, that's the point

motherf-ckers

Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary since sometime in 2008.

by Matt Klaassen on Feb 18, 2009 10:33 AM EST up reply actions  

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