Spring Training Stats are Meaningless, version 2.0
As the Royals have begun what I'm sure will be a historic Cactus League season, I thought this would be a good time to revisit the issue of spring training stats. A year ago, I wrote the original STSAM article which set off a firestorm of controversy (otherwise known as general agreement, with a few dissents). So I thought I'd reiterate the salient points, and hopefully expand and explain them a bit more. Then I'll give some relevant examples from 2008 which I believe illustrate my point.
Essentially the entire field of baseball research (and even a good deal of baseball traditionalists) recognize that spring training stats are meaningless. Good or bad spring training stats tell you basically nothing about how good of a season a particular player or team is going to have. The two sets of stats simply do not correlate and a variety of studies have proven this.
There is one small exception to this rule. As I pointed out late last March, John Dewan of Baseball Info Solutions, most known for his Plus/Minus fielding metric, found that players who have a slugging percentage in spring training 100 points or more higher than their career average are more likely to "performed better than their career average during the upcoming season." Interestingly, sometimes Dewan refers to a 100-point SLG increase threshold and sometimes he refers to a 200-point threshold. His methodology has been questioned somewhat, but I think there is something to it. However, we need to recognize how little Dewan is saying here. A big SLG increase in spring training leads only to some increase in regular season performance over career averages. He's not talking about an impending breakout season; just something better than the player's career averages.
But there is a broad consensus that save this one small exception, spring training stats have no meaning. A few weeks after my original article, Joe Sheehan at Baseball Prospectus echoed my sentiments (I'm sure my writing inspired him). I think this quote pretty much sums it up:
I’ve been making the point about the meaninglessness of spring training stats all month, and I’m making it again, because I continue to see these stats quoted in stories about baseball as if they have meaning. They don’t. Spring training stats...are meaningless.
So, if these stats are largely meaningless, why is that?
- Sample size. Every player's official spring training stats represent a very small sample size. For starting pitchers, this means 15-25 IP. For relievers, 5-15 IP (or less). For position players, this means 40-70 AB (regulars) and even less for backups. Actual spring training "A games" are only a small part of the work players do in spring training. There are also "B games," minor league games, intrasquad games, simulated games and of course all of the practices and workouts.
- Uneven competition. There is a wide variety of talent in spring training. A player will end up facing some complete scrubs, some ok minor leaguers, some decent major leaguers and some great major leaguers. When looking at a player's spring training stats, you never know if he faced a disproportionate number of good or bad players. The level of competition changes over the course of a game and throughout spring training. There are more bad players early in spring training and they are weeded out as spring training progresses. Also, early in spring training, the pitchers are usually said to be ahead of the hitters. So spring training stats also can reflect when a player got his playing time and thus, the quality of players he played against.
- Unreal play. Not every player in spring training is always playing as if it were a real game. And I'm not just talking about the veterans who cruise through spring training and don't give 100% because they know they have a starting spot locked up. There are also many games throughout spring training when pitchers are working on particular pitches, so they throw almost all fastballs, or don't throw one of their breaking pitches to decrease strain on their arms. Position players also might be working on contact in some games, or bunting or some other particular skill. All of these things are done to work on one element of a player's game without regard to actual game outcome or the player's stats.
- Rarefied air. For a variety of meteorological reasons, the ball carries very well in Arizona. That can pump up power numbers and hurt pitching stats.
Last year I provided several examples of the disparity between spring training and regular season stats in 2006 and 2007. There were many such examples in 2008 as well.
Luke Hochevar
Spring Training
ERA 2.25
K/9 3.38
BB/9 1.13
Regular Season
ERA 5.51
K/9 5.02
BB/9 3.28
Gil Meche
Spring Training
ERA 2.70
K/9 8.10
BB/9 1.80
Regular Season
ERA 3.98
K/9 7.83
BB/9 3.12
Zack Greinke
Spring Training
ERA 6.43
K/9 5.79
BB/9 3.21
Regular Season
ERA 3.47
K/9 8.14
BB/9 2.49
Joakim Soria
Spring Training
ERA 5.40
K/9 9.72
BB/9 1.08
Regular Season
ERA 1.60
K/9 8.82
BB/9 2.54
Billy Butler
Spring Training
AVG .341
SLG .610
Regular Season
AVG .275
SLG .400
Justin Huber
Spring Training
AVG .316
SLG .632
Regular Season
AVG .246
SLG .393
Joey Gathright
Spring Training
AVG .316
SLG .395
Regular Season (San Diego)
AVG .254
SLG .272
Damon Hollins
Spring Training
AVG .314
SLG .571
Regular Season (Omaha (AAA))
AVG .220
SLG .408
Mark Teahen
Spring Training
AVG .295
SLG .545
Regular Season
AVG .255
SLG .402
Ross Gload
Spring Training
AVG .293
SLG .488
Regular Season
AVG .273
SLG .348
The difference between the spring training and regular season stats is both significant and all over the place. Some do much better in spring training than in the regular season and some do much worse. And there were instances in which the two sets of stats were similar. And this is the whole point with spring training stats. Sometimes they will be indicative of what the player does in the regular season. But often they will differ greatly. You just never know.
This isn't to say that spring training performance is necessarily irrelevant. Players' skills and tools can change from year to year, particularly with the improvement of younger players and the deterioration of older players. Managers, coaches and front office personnel spend several weeks with these players, monitoring and evaluating them. They will see (or at least attempt to determine) if a pitcher has added velocity, added or improved a pitch or changed his mechanics to improve his control. They will see if a hitter's pitch recognition has improved, if he's hitting the ball with more power or if an older player has lost a step. But these evaluations cannot made in a meaningful and reliable way by use of spring training statistics for the above reasons. Close observation and tools-based evaluation on a daily basis is necessary to see if a player's tools have improved or declined. Certainly those observations can have important consequences to a variety of player personnel decisions.
So, while it is nice to cite some numbers when talking about who should be on the 25-man roster or who should have a good or bad season, there's really no reason to use spring training stats. Major league stats from recent years provide much better evidence about how good or bad a player is and what should be expected from him in the near future. Advanced projection systems help too.
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37 comments
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Comments
Sorry, I should have just put the first paragraph above the fold
…and bumped the rest to a “read more.”
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Feb 26, 2009 4:30 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
So that means HoRam still has a chance to win the Cy Young?
OH YEAH
Kansas City Royals: your 2006 and 2007 NL Central champions!
by mazoboom on Feb 26, 2009 4:44 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
but it also means that Mike Jacobs
might not get 400 rbis :(
We always did feel the same, We just saw it from a different point of view, Tangled up in blue.
-Bob Dylan
by Royal Kingdom on Feb 26, 2009 8:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe one statistic that does matter, winning percentage.
Pete Rose, when he was a manager, used to talk about how important it was for a team to win games in spring training. He thought that writing off losses as not very meaningful carried the attitude into the season that losing games was acceptable. I liked that emphasis.
From 2005 through 2007 I saw too much acceptance of losing among Royal players. In particular – Sweeney, Greinke, Burgos, Buck and Berroa. As a fan I never want to see players sorta yucking it up when the team is in a tailspin. “Ha ha, yeah we suck.” One reason I loved Dougie Mientkiewicz and Jo-el Peralta was that at least these guys never made peace with losing. I know, they were not very good players themselves, but I did like their approach.
Anyway, I just thought I’d add that point to the discussion.
www.rockchalktalk.com for pretty good KU baseball coverage
by James Quinn on Feb 26, 2009 10:27 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
The Royals were 2 above .500 last year in ST
and I suppose we saw some improvement, but not that much. They were 7 above .500 in 2006 and lost 100 games! 1 game under .500 in 2005 and they lost 106. 3 games over .500 in 2004 and they lost 104. 11 games over in 2003 translated to 4 games above .500. So maybe there is a threshold here too, like with SLG. Otherwise, there is obviously no correlation to ST record and regular season. Unless, you want to infer from the Royals data alone an inverse relationship, but, and this is just a wild guess, that won’t be true.
by AxDxMx on Feb 26, 2009 10:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, I had no idea that KC was doing so well in ST during those years.
That does cause some reflection.
www.rockchalktalk.com for pretty good KU baseball coverage
by James Quinn on Feb 26, 2009 11:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It would be an interesting thing to study
To see if there’s any correlation between ST wins and RS wins over a large sample of teams and years. My gut says no. But my gut can’t be trusted.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Feb 26, 2009 3:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think it can
be trusted – to slowly get bigger over time
twss
Fourth to First
by kabrink on Feb 26, 2009 8:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Rose had money on those games
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary since sometime in 2008.
by devil_fingers on Feb 26, 2009 11:37 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Come on!
We all know Pete Rose always bet on the Reds to win! (cough cough) (sigh)
www.rockchalktalk.com for pretty good KU baseball coverage
by James Quinn on Feb 26, 2009 1:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and that
totally made it OK, too!
And if steroids guys, just trying to win, are going to get into the HoF, so should rose, because those two things are total equivalents.
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary since sometime in 2008.
by devil_fingers on Feb 26, 2009 2:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually,
When Rose said this, he was lying. He later owned up to betting on the Reds to lose at times.
ARod is following the Pete Rose pathway to public rehabilitation. Lie as long as you can. Then admit a small amount and deny everything else. Then when you are forced to do so, admit a little more and deny everything else. Repeat process for fifteen years. In the end you will finally have admitted it all, and then you can decry the abuse you receive when, after all, you have come clean.
www.rockchalktalk.com for pretty good KU baseball coverage
by James Quinn on Feb 26, 2009 4:02 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Wow, I didn't know that
as if I didn’t despise Pete Rose already…
I do think that betting on your team (even to win) is in a much worse category than betting on your team at all, much less to lose.
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary since sometime in 2008.
by devil_fingers on Feb 26, 2009 4:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
Who knows how many pitchers he drove too hard because he had 5 Gs sitting on it.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Feb 26, 2009 6:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Are you sure?
He admitted on betting against the Reds? I thought he just admitted to betting on baseball and no more than that.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Feb 26, 2009 5:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I am pretty sure.
At least this is what I remember.
Rose’s pathway to the truth:
1. I never gamble.
2. I gamble, but never on baseball.
3. I gamble, and sometimes on baseball, but never on the Reds.
4. I gamble on baseball, and I bet on the Reds, but I never bet on them to lose.
5. I am pretty sure he finally took this step.
Even if he didn’t, on those days he chose not to bet on the Reds to win, he was sending his bookies a message.
www.rockchalktalk.com for pretty good KU baseball coverage
by James Quinn on Feb 26, 2009 8:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think he's gone to step 5 yet
He’s probably saving that for a last ditch chance to get into the hall.
by Top Ramen on Feb 26, 2009 10:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ah the irony
Hey, ok, I admit it, I bet on my team to lose. Can I get into the Hall of Game now?
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary since sometime in 2008.
by devil_fingers on Feb 27, 2009 12:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What continues to perplex me
is that teams seemingly at times use ST stats to decide their 24th or 25th roster spots (or they appear to do so anyway). Now, of course, presumably they probably are using other input as well, but that’s not all that clear when reading articles and quotes from managers/GMs about said roster battles.
Mr Glass, this is a pro sports team, not a retail store - run it like one!
by loyal2sdad on Feb 26, 2009 10:47 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I don't know how much they use ST stats
I hear them talking about how a player is “looking good” or “doing well” but I rarely read or hear about them citing ST stats.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Feb 26, 2009 3:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good read, and makes sense too.
One hiccup though…in the list above, you state Gathright playing the regular season in San Diego, instead of the player listed above him…who happens to be Huber.
Clearly, this was a freudian slip from someone longing for a better time when Huber was still donning Royals blue…
by RoyalsFanInBillings on Feb 26, 2009 10:56 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I can't imagine this is a very controversial statement
FWIW, Trey was asked by Soren a few times if spring training performance was going to matter for a few of the positional battles and Trey pretty much said no, or that it would be just a small part of their evaluation.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Feb 26, 2009 11:06 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
In other words
Look for a HoRam extension in May
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary since sometime in 2008.
by devil_fingers on Feb 26, 2009 11:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Probably not too controversial
And yet, you will see many fans and more than a few broadcasters (especially ESPN types) refer to spring training stats when talking about position and roster spot battles. They treat them as meaningful data when determining who should be on the team and who should be the starting whatever.
I decided not to go too far out on a limb for my first article for my new Yahoo “fans”.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Feb 26, 2009 3:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
One thing...
What if a position player hits very poorly?
Still meaningless or possibly a bad sign…
by royalsreview on Feb 26, 2009 12:50 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Depends on if his golf game improves
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Feb 26, 2009 3:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
if a guy isn't hitting in ST
and gets a fair amount of PAs… I would have to give it some salt, or as much salt as I would give the same # of PAs in the regular season, considering most of these factors are pro-hitter
by royalsreview on Feb 26, 2009 5:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Even the "observational" part is a crapshoot.
How often have we heard a manager’s effusive praise of some washed-up waste of a roster space as his rationale for giving him a starting job, compared to a manager going bananas during/after spring training over a player who really does have an unexpected regular-season breakout?
I’m pretty sure the ratio there is tilted far toward the former side than the latter.
This space for rent.
by jonfmorse on Feb 26, 2009 1:11 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I hear you
Of course it all depends on the player. If a manager or GM thinks he suddenly sees something different from a 32-year-old journeyman, then it’s almost certainly a mirage. But when you improvement from a 25-year-old or a decline from a 34-year-old, there’s good reason to believe that to some degree you’re seeing the real thing.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Feb 26, 2009 3:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
DAMON HOLLINS NOW!!!!
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Feb 26, 2009 6:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
wrong
Gordon will suck forever.
Proven fact. It’s science.
Founder of the Johnny Giavotella fan club.
by doublestix on Feb 26, 2009 7:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Gathright
3-3, BB, RBI, Run
I knew we should have kept him.
Fourth to First
by kabrink on Feb 26, 2009 11:19 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Context
Yes, I agree that ST numbers, taken by themselves, don’t really mean anything. What can give them some meaning is looking at the context behind how those numbers were accomplished. Don’t overreact – by “some” I mean slightly more than zero. I think that this is where you were going when you mentioned “perfomance” in your next to last paragraph.
For example, let’s assume that Mitch Maier hits .500 this spring. Sounds good. Naturally, the first question should be: How many at bats did he have? If the answer is “10”, I’ve already lost interest. If the answer is “60”, I’d like to know more. This is where the “small sample size” can be an advantage. With very little work, all of his plate appearances can be looked at. What kind of hits was he getting? Were they weak ground balls that trickled thru the infield, or were they line drives smashed all over the park? You could also take a look at his outs. Was he hitting infield popups like the second coming of Neifi Perez, or was he hitting ropes right at the defense? Additionally, you can look at the pitchers that he faced. If you have to search the internet for info on the opposing pitchers (because you’ve never heard of them), it probably means he faced a lot of pitchers that will have to buy a ticket in order to see a major league game this year (since they won’t be playing there). However, if he is abusing pitchers named Lincecum, Peavy, Webb, and other front line major leaguers, it could mean that he’s figured something out.
Before I finish – a note on “uneven competition” and “unreal play”. I mostly agree with you here. I will say that competition and intensity pick up the last week to week-and-half of ST. I figure games at this point are being played at about 90% of the level that “real” games are played. The lineups start to resemble those likely to be seen in the regular season, and the position players remain in the game longer (if not for the whole game). The “scrubs” are mostly gone. The starting pitchers begin to get stretched out. There’s a LOT less “trying” and “working” on things and more actual game competition. This is where I really start paying attention to how guys are looking and performing.
Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals! Except the weasel! - Homer Simpson
by aHorseWithNoName on Feb 27, 2009 1:34 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
"Were they weak ground balls that trickled thru the infield"
I think the new name for those is “Harveys”
by Top Ramen on Feb 27, 2009 3:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs















