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Kevin Goldstein Ranks the Royals System 16th Overall

Goldstein pegs the Royals at 16th, right in the middle of the pack, though up from last season's rank of 22nd:

16. Kansas City Royals
Last Year's Ranking: 22
Why They Might Be Better Than This: We haven't seen what Eric Hosmer is capable of in a full season; Kila Ka'aihue's tremendous 2008 campaign was for real; young arms like those of Tim Melville, Daniel Gutierrez, and Mike Montgomery provide plenty of cause for optimism.
Why They Might Be Worse: Mike Moustakas might not really be an infielder; Daniel Cortes' inconsistency continues to frustrate; after the big two sluggers in the system, their team is rail-thin as far as position players.
Outlook For 2010: The Royals don't have a top three pick for the first time in five years, but even the 12th overall pick should net them a significant talent; they have so many young players with room for growth that it's hard to see them moving anywhere but up next year.

Where do you put your beloved Royals?

Star-divide

  • At 16th, the Royals now rank ahead of every single division rival, save the Indians, who are obviously over-rated, because Shapiro is too much of a stats guy and wasn't reared in the Braves system. Goldstein rates the Twins at 20th, the White Sox at 24th and the Tigers at 27th.
  • Longtime readers will know that I'm a staunch Twins hater, but it's hard to say that the Royals have now necessarily passed the Twins, who in the last two season's have promoted a ton of young players out of their system, which understandably is now a little thin.
  •  We may not have fully realized it, but Dayton Moore, as hinted at by Goldstein, has officially entered the second phase of his rebuild. Hosmer and Moustakas are top prospects and the foundations of the future, but they were also top three picks. To a certain extent, a blogger with a Baseball America subscription could have drafted them from his mother's basement. As the Royals fall back to the middle of the pack (in draft order) Dayton's top picks will reflect a more complicated matrix of risk/reward and signability.

So, tell me what you think, since many of you know more about this stuff than I do.

0 recs  |  Comment 41 comments

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doh!

I am epic fail for not seeing that.

Anyway, should the conversation continue (which I hope it does) we can migrate here…

by royalsreview on Mar 17, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Boo

You closed comments before I could respond to NY Royal.

Anyway, you know I value nothing more than ERA, but I was not talking just about stats, although K/9, BB/9, HR/9, and batted ball rates would be the important ones. How impressive the stuff/control looks is going to depend in large part on the level of competition (otherwise, teams could evaluate pitchers exclusively from side sessions). In the Midwest Leauge, a pitcher’s stuff and control may look great when facing overmatched hitters, but the same pitcher’s stuff and control may rate much differently when moving up levels and facing a greater percentage of hitters who know how to hit breaking balls, take pitches, and go the other way. The tools/skills evaluators are going to be more skeptical of pitchers in the Midwest League than in the Carolina League and on up.

by Gopherballs on Mar 17, 2009 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wasn’t implying that your head would be turned by ERA. We were talking about prospects potentially breaking through into the top 100 or top 50 in established prospect rankings. So I used ERA as an example of a stat (among many) that such rankers don’t really rely on so much for evaluating young prospects in the low minors. They appropriately go more by tools than stats.

How impressive the stuff/control looks is going to depend in large part on the level of competition

I suppose that is possible, but that depends on how you think scouts and prospect analysts evaluate tools. I would imagine that they evaluate a pitcher’s stuff by the velocity and movement of the pitches, rather than the outcome of plate appearances. I’m not saying that performance outcomes are irrelevant to tools evaluation, but I think the impact isn’t major.

The tools/skills evaluators are going to be more skeptical of pitchers in the Midwest League than in the Carolina League and on up.

I disagree. If scout/evaluator sees a good velocity fastball, a nice breaking, consistent curveball and an effective change where the pitcher has decent control of all three, I think he’s going to love those tools, regardless of which league or level the pitcher is in. Actually, seeing impressive tools from a young guy at a low level (and therefore so early in his career) would probably impress the scout/evaluator even more.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Mar 17, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So the talent evaluators only need to watch a pitcher warm up?

Talent evaluators focus on skills, the ability to turn tools into performance. To evaluate the skills, you need to see the pitcher in game situations. Command and control cannot be meaningful evaluated unless there is another player standing in the batters box holding a bat and capable of swinging and hitting the pitcher’s pitches. The quality of those hitters is going to affect that evaluation (as will the hitting environment). In other words, how can you tell how effective a pitcher’s changeup is unless the pitcher throws it to a hitter capable of clobbering one?

Even velocity and movement flashed in warm ups do not become truly meaningful until placed into the context of a pitcher’s skill in repeating them in game situations and translating them into strikes, balls, and batted balls.

I think any scout or other talent evaluator would agree that a pitcher showing dominating skills in the Midwest League is not as impressive as a pitcher showing the same skills in a more advanced and less pitcher friendly league.

by Gopherballs on Mar 17, 2009 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Talent evaluators focus on skills, the ability to turn tools into performance.

And I think they know the difference between tools and results.

To evaluate the skills, you need to see the pitcher in game situations.

Indeed. I didn’t suggest otherwise.

Command and control cannot be meaningful evaluated unless there is another player standing in the batters box holding a bat and capable of swinging and hitting the pitcher’s pitches.

And the Midwest League has those.

The quality of those hitters is going to affect that evaluation (as will the hitting environment). In other words, how can you tell how effective a pitcher’s changeup is unless the pitcher throws it to a hitter capable of clobbering one?

Evaluating a changeup isn’t about seeing if a pitcher fools batters with it. That’s the result, not the tool. Evaluating the changeup itself involves evaluating the important elements of the pitch:

- Velocity (how much does the velocity differ from his fastball?)
- Movement
- Arm action/mechanics/delivery (does the delivery of the changeup look like the delivery of the fastball or is it easy to tell which one he’s throwing by the mechanics or tempo he uses?)
(and perhaps other elements beyond my level of knowledge)

Even velocity and movement flashed in warm ups do not become truly meaningful until placed into the context of a pitcher’s skill in repeating them in game situations and translating them into strikes, balls, and batted balls.

Again, no one suggested anything about just evaluating pitchers or position players in warm ups. You need real game conditions. You need to see players performing at 100%.

So basically good stats in a pitcher’s league like the Midwest League need to be viewed in the context of that league. But a good fastball, breaking ball, offspeed pitch, control or makeup is a good tool regardless of league.

I think any scout or other talent evaluator would agree that a pitcher showing dominating skills in the Midwest League is not as impressive as a pitcher showing the same skills in a more advanced and less pitcher friendly league.

When scouts and other talent evaluators grade a tool, they grade it two ways: 1) as the tool currently is, and 2) what they think the tool projects to be eventually. These are not tool-relative-to-league grades. They are absolute grades. A 70 fastball is a 70 fastball. A 50 curveball is a 50 curveball.

Any scout or talent evaluator would agree that a pitcher who is dominating (that’s results) in the Midwest League is not as impressive as a pitcher dominating in a more advanced and less pitcher friendly league. But when you are evaluating tools, a great fastball is a great fastball, regardless of league.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Mar 17, 2009 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Talking about raw tools is not really a response to a comment about evaluating skills

The skills, not raw tools, are what are most important, and the evaluation of the skills is dependent on the level of competition. A fastball with great velocity (tool) is not the same thing as a great fastball (skill).

by Gopherballs on Mar 17, 2009 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And I think scouts and the prospect analysts who make the rankings that we've been talking about...

…are evaluating 18-20 year olds in the low minors primarily on tools. You can look at velocity as a tool, and/or you can look at a fastball as a tool. A fastball is evaluated based on its velocity, movement, control, reliability and consistency. Those things (and perhaps others) make up a good (or bad) fastball. Those tools can be fairly evaluated in the Midwest League, Pioneer League and the International League. And the quality of the league doesn’t make the tool better or worse. And it is the player’s tools (not so much his stats) that scouts and prospect analysts primarily use to evaluate a prospect.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Mar 17, 2009 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ah, I see

The really good ones use your terminology strictly classifying tools as a subset of skills. Those guys at BA are just hacks who don’t understand that a fastball isn’t a tool; it’s a skill.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Mar 18, 2009 2:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Tools are not a subset of skills

Skills are the ability to use the tools. The BA guys get the concept. Fastball velocity is a tool. Fastball movement is a tool. But whether a fastball is effective depends on the pitcher’s ability to throw it consistently with the same velocity and movement in locations where the hitter cannot hit it or hit it well. That is the skill. And evaluating that skill depends on seeing the pitcher facing hitters.

by Gopherballs on Mar 18, 2009 4:04 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The BA guys get the concept.

They just don’t use terminology the way you do. But hey, you’re entitled to create your own talent evaluation lexicon. Do you think that people like Callis, Sickels, Goldstein, etc. don’t refer to a pitcher’s pitches as “tools” (as well as referring them as skills at times)? Are you laboring under the misapprehension that such analysts don’t often use tools and skills interchangeably? Sure you don’t want to re-think that? It may offend the nomenclature you’ve created for yourself, but I just don’t think that reflects the reality of the usage of those terms.

And evaluating that skill depends on seeing the pitcher facing hitters.

You keep saying this for some reason. You keep saying this as if I’ve ever said or implied anything other than that. Of course talent evaluators have to see the pitcher facing actual hitters in actual games. No one is debating that. We’re debating whether tools can be fairly and equally evaluated in a pitcher’s league as compared to a hitter’s league. Of course it can. Being in a pitcher’s league is not going to change a pitcher’s velocity, movement, control, mechanics or consistency.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Mar 18, 2009 6:01 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m trying to figure out if this is one the short list of most pointless, silly, endless debate/arguments we’ve ever had or if it is at the top of the list. Basically this is a minor point about how much having a pitcher at a low level pitcher’s league affects his prospect evaluation and thus whether some of these pitching prospects might breakout in 2009 or 2010. In the final analysis, this one is a yawner.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Mar 18, 2009 7:01 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What I don't understand is

Why are tools good but being a tool is bad?

The General Theory of Royaltivity

by kabrink on Mar 18, 2009 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You just blew my mind

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Mar 18, 2009 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

BTW

From what I’ve read elsewhere from non-Royals fans, I’d put the Royals system somewhere in the 10-15 range, so this is fair.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Mar 17, 2009 3:18 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

i haven't seen his top teams

since it isn’t out yet, but I think the one thing holding the royals back is that the pitching is still up in the air… lots of good arms, and probably a large percentage of the Cortes-Rosa-Melville-etc group will become big league contributors, but right now its just a probability cloud, with none of them standing out as individuals

in reality, that’s kinda irrelevant, but if one of them was clearly the best, i think subjectively it would make the system seem better

by royalsreview on Mar 17, 2009 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't disagree with that but...

Isn’t “up in the air” and “probability cloud” the nature of prospects. How good every prospect is and therefore the pitching and hitting of ever organization is up in the air. We really don’t know how any minor leaguer will pan out, even top 10 prospects.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Mar 17, 2009 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yea... I mean basically we are in agreement

but I do think that “top” prospects are considered top not just because of upside, but because of having a higher floor… Kila could end up having a better career than Butler, especially since he may be able to play first, but he still has a much lower floor as well

if one of the pitching prospects would distinguish himself, it would make the system appear, again subjectively, much better

more or less, this would just be the next stage of development, if these guys are actually good, then at some point, they will have to do it on the field…

i think i’m talkikng in circles

by royalsreview on Mar 17, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes

That’s where most of the prospect hounds over at projectprospect, sickels community, etc would have KC ranked.

I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.

by kcscoliny on Mar 17, 2009 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not too concerned with GMDM and his crew drafting in the mid to late rounds

Arbuckle, GMDM, JJ and crew are actually more experienced drafting in those rounds.

I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.

by kcscoliny on Mar 17, 2009 3:44 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

those rounds=those slots

I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.

by kcscoliny on Mar 17, 2009 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

heh heh

you said slots…

The Snozberries taste like Snozberries

by labbadabba on Mar 17, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

and with less money spent on 1st rounders their budget should be effectively switched into more Latin Americans

I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.

by kcscoliny on Mar 17, 2009 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

A nerd in his mom's basement probably wouldn't have drafted Moustakas

they don’t have the scouting eye that the Royals FO has, and probably would have been drawn to a low-ceiling college guy like Matt Weiters.

Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary to Driveline Mechanics and elsewhere since sometime in 2008.

by devil_fingers on Mar 17, 2009 6:59 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Snark snark snark

Wait, do you think the Royals should have drafted Weiters instead of Moustakas? If only foresight equaled hindsight.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Mar 17, 2009 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

so, actually

I was joking about the “mom’s basement” in RR’s post, agreeing that first few picks of the draft are a usually strange mixture of obviousness and mystery.

Althouh if one wants to argue the opposite, that the first few picks really show the opposite (and I don’t), than Moustakas over Weiters/Wieters is bad news for Moore’s evaluation skills.

I don’t, which is why I don’t rip him for Linecum over Hochevar, either. Yeah, I’d rather have Linecum and Weiters than Hochevar and Moustakas, and I can’t imagine anyone would say the opposite now. But back then, I don’t think anyone could have had the foresight to see things turning out the way they have. So I’m not ripping Moore for it.

But on the other hand, if the situation is such that we can’t rip him for it, then we can’t praise him for those picks, either.

Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary to Driveline Mechanics and elsewhere since sometime in 2008.

by devil_fingers on Mar 17, 2009 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

the subject line was supposed to be "no, actually"

Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary to Driveline Mechanics and elsewhere since sometime in 2008.

by devil_fingers on Mar 17, 2009 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, I think it is clear who we'd rather have now

As you pointed out, it wasn’t so clear who was best to pick then. Moore gets the credit or blame for good and bad picks. But is the real standard for whether a given draft pick was a “success” or a “good pick” whether any player drafted later eventually proved to be a better player? If so, then I would think that in excess of 98% of draft picks have not been good picks or successful picks (including every player drafted in the first 12 rounds of the 1999 draft before Albert Pujols was drafted, which includes Josh Beckett, Alex Rios, Carl Crawford, Brandon Phillips, John Lackey, Ryan Ludwick, and Justin Morneau). I think the better test is a more objective one. What is the average production of a #1 overall, #3 overall, #X overall draft pick? And then, some years later, you see if that player (or the player(s)) traded for him ends up with that level of production, or more or less than that.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Mar 17, 2009 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I generally agree, I think

like I said, it seems that in many drafts, the first few picks are clearly the “first few,” but distinguishing who is the better pick pre-draft is hard from this perspective. So I’m not going to mock or congratulate a GM if a guy drafted #3 turns out better than the guy he drafted #1. Now, obviously, if Moustakas busts big time or something, that’s one thing.

My point was simply that of many — that the primary measure of good decision-making in the draft shouldn’t be the first 5 picks.

Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary to Driveline Mechanics and elsewhere since sometime in 2008.

by devil_fingers on Mar 17, 2009 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

BTW, with regard to not drafting Wieters

I don’t know, but I don’t think it was about poor talent evaluation. I think it was about money. I think four teams passed on him because of money and signability concerns, rather than talent concerns. At least this is the buzz that I heard at the time (general buzz, nothing specific to the Royals).

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Mar 17, 2009 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah, that's what I vaguely remember, too

so I’m not ripping them, either, although I’m sure they all wish they could have that decision back now. That’s just the way it goes.

Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary to Driveline Mechanics and elsewhere since sometime in 2008.

by devil_fingers on Mar 17, 2009 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If the pick was based on money, not talent

…then Moore and/or Glass deserves to be ripped for either poor budgeting/judgement (Moore) or stupid stinginess (Glass). Investing $2-3M more in the better player (if they thought Wieters was a better player) at a more scarce position would, of course, have been the way to go.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Mar 17, 2009 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It was part of both I believe

it was a talent evaluation. The BA guys were talking in their podcast about how Wieters Jr year wasn’t as impressive as his sophmore year. The numbers weren’t all that different(besides 5 HR’s) but it must have been something that was talked about if they believed it.

I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.

by kcscoliny on Mar 17, 2009 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

His stock definitely dropped during the course of his junior year

Before that season started, all of the early articles about the draft had Price and #1 and Wieters at #1a (or words to that effect). But Wieters performance caused his stock to drop somewhat from that clear #2 behind Price position.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Mar 17, 2009 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

given that Moustakas was and is a Boras client...

I don’t think money was a huge part of the decision calculus on the part of Moore and/or Glass.

by DarthYoshi on Mar 18, 2009 12:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think Wieters would have gotten more if he were the #2 overall pick

Boras got Wieters $6M with the #5 overall pick. Boras got Moustakas $4M with the #2 overall. So the Royals saved at least $2M. If Wieters had been picked #2 overall, Boras might have demanded (and actually required) even more than $6M.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Mar 18, 2009 12:57 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Boras did demand more than 6M...

concessions were made at the end, presumably by Wieters himself, because he probably wanted to play rather than go back to school when his stock probably couldn’t have gone up much more.

Boras was wanted a Teixeira type deal…meaning a MLB contract worth about 10m.

Founder of the Johnny Giavotella fan club.

by doublestix on Mar 18, 2009 4:44 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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