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Around SBN: The End Of Sabanball: Details, Barbarians, And Precision

Should the Royals become a Constitutional Monarchy?

Today, Seattle Sounders FC will play their inaugural regular season game as a member of MLS. This would normally be of very little interest to me except that the Sounders have imported the best idea ever to come from foreign sports: fan control of the team.

Star-divide

The Sounders have a fan group called the Alliance that gets to vote on important team decisions (season tickets or $125 gets you in). I'm having trouble identifying exactly what kind of important decisions they're talking about, but it appears that the biggest power they have is the ability to fire the general manager. They also apparently get some decision making power in things like "team play" and "game presentation" although I have no idea what that means.

Sounders minority owner Drew Carey is responsible for bringing this idea to America, and he wants democracy in sports to become the new model for this country. I agree with him whole heartedly. I really think some small market MLB team (like, I don't know, let's say the Royals) should test drive this idea for baseball. I think that would make the Royals one of the best teams in baseball to be a fan of, especially when we currently rely mostly on insanity and storge. It seems to be working for the Sounders as they've already sold over 20,000 season tickets.

Think about it. Wouldn't you love to be able to vote on firing Dayton Moore, moving Soria to the rotation, wearing powder blues on the road, etc.? In my mind, the fans would also be able to elect a committee to hire a new GM and other such things. Then we could all get together and make sure NYRoyal had a say in how the team is run, but I'll take what I can get. I'm not sure that the will of the masses would be any better than the current arrangement, but then at least it would be our fault if something isn't working. And, it would give a whole lot more weight to all of these arguments about players and strategies. You might actually have an impact by persuading others.

We could even come up with a clever name for the group like the "Royal Court" or something.

The Sounders also have a marching band which I think is pretty cool, but that doesn't really jive with baseball. But, if we did want a marching band, we could probably just rent an appropriate existing band.

Poll
Do you think that the Royals should run the team through a fan-based democracy?
Yes, and I'd even buy season tickets/pay to join
41 votes
Yes, but I probably wouldn't join
8 votes
No, mob rule is no way to run a business
64 votes

113 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 52 comments  |  3 recs  | 

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Comments

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This is a great concept in theory...

and as big as sports have become from a business/media/fan/industry perspective, I think it has some serious potential. BUT…I really don’t think most, if any, owners would spend the hundreds of millions (quickly approaching a billion for some franchises/sports) that they do for a team, and then cede any control over major decisions like that (especially hiring/firing a GM) to a group of fans. No matter how devoted they are, and probably no matter how much money they pay (unless they have enough to buy a minority ownership stake).

I do think that this could work, but the best possibility from a major sport would be the Green Bay Packers. I believe the fans (i.e. season ticket holders) technically own that team, but I’m not sure what, if any, direct authority they have over team operations.

What is the Sounders ownership situation like? Are they really that innovative, or is this just a cheap marketing ploy?

"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae

by Sweep_the_Leg on Mar 19, 2009 12:57 PM EDT reply actions  

ownership

Drew Carey is a minority owner, and this is basically his brainchild. From what I understand, that is how they do it for the Spanish clubs FC Barcelona and Real Madrid. The other owners are Joe Roth (Hollywood Producer – majority owner), Adrian Hanauer (who owner the previous Seattle minor league soccer team), and Paul Allen (Microsoft Co-founder).

I also thought about Green Bay, and I think they would have a great shot at making it work since they often sell “stock” to their fans. But, right now, the fans don’t get anything for that stock. Voting rights would be cool. But, I’d rather see it come to the Royals :) .

As far as ownership being reluctant to turn control over to fans, I think it makes perfect business sense. It isn’t just about the money you make for people joining, it’s about all of the money you’ll make because fans are a lot more engaged in the team, especially when times are bad. The ownership could of course veto any decision of the fans (after all, it would still be a monarchy – just with a parliament), they’d just probably piss off a lot of fans if they did. If it wasn’t successful as a business model, you could always undo it. Plus, if the fans don’t approve of the way a GM is doing things, he’s probably going to get fired anyway. This is just a way to give fans the satisfaction of doing the firing. The owner would still control the budget and many other business aspects. I really don’t see a lot of downside for some team to try it out other than change is scary to a lot of people.

by Trey Hillman's Chin on Mar 19, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

so....

….move to fan ownership.

stock in the royals.

royals futures.

royals equity derivatives.

we could put madoff in charge.

by Sean O Se on Mar 19, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't see this working in baseball,

football maybe. There just seems to be too much insider information in baseball to put important decisions in the hands of the fans.

by 9il on Mar 19, 2009 1:16 PM EDT reply actions  

Like what?

I think there is very little risk with letting fans take a “no confidence” on the GM. I think fans are capable of not firing a good GM. They might fire a mediocre one, but I don’t think it is hard to find another mediocre GM to take his place.

Most of the other “big” decisions would simply be placed with (or advised by) a committee which is elected by the fan group (the Sounders call this the “Member Association Council”). Such a council could act with the trust of the fan group and would be privy to any insider information that is needed.

Other decisions like what color shoe laces the team wears and what to name our new cheerleading squad could be made by the whole fan group and are mostly just for fun.

by Trey Hillman's Chin on Mar 19, 2009 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

i think the fans

making the decision on whether or not the GM gets to keep his job is a good idea and it would be better for the fans to have say in the aesthetics and entertainment, but i don’t care for the fan-elected committee. i think a fan base can grasp the overall direction of the club, but to put much other power in their hands may overestimate their capacity to make good decisions.

by 9il on Mar 19, 2009 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Republic vs. Democracy

The form of democracy which is almost always used is representative democracy — a republic — not pure democracy (like small town New England town meetings). There’s a big difference between most people having the opportunity to vote for the representatives who make the decisions on the one hand and everyone directly voting on every decision on the other hand. For better or worse, no democratic nation-state on the planet has direct rule by the people, which essentially prevents mob rule. I wonder if the “Alliance” is a smaller group of select fans, or just any fan who wants to be in the alliance. I don’t know that I would want every American voting directly on tax policy; nor do I think I’d want fans directing player personnel moves.

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Mar 19, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Alliance

The Alliance is any fan who buys season tickets or who pays $125 to join. Thus, they are at least somewhat motivated and not just a casual fan. The Alliance elects a smaller committee called the “Council” which acts in more of an advisory role to the organization. I’m not sure if the Council has any real authority.

by Trey Hillman's Chin on Mar 19, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Word

I love me some Early Western Political Thought (class I had in college).

Plato and I are homies.

"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae

by Sweep_the_Leg on Mar 19, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually...

I would immediately renounce my Royals fanhood and secede from the Royals’ Review Union if there was another team owner that offered $100 memberships for a private blog that submitted any and all decisions related to the team to a blog poll.

"Poll: Which supplier shall we use for toilet paper in the stadium?

A. Kimberly-Clark
B. GeorgiaPacific
C. International Paper

Vote now!"

"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae

by Sweep_the_Leg on Mar 19, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Does Dunder Mifflin

make industrial toilet paper? Cumberland Mills?

by mikewormdog on Mar 19, 2009 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

on democracy

By the way, one of the team names they voted on was “Seattle Republic”. Obviously, they didn’t go with that name. “Sounders” won as a write-in.

by Trey Hillman's Chin on Mar 19, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, this idea is ridiculous

Two Reasons (to begin with)

1. I know from my current job that decision making by group consensus takes forever at best and never happens at all at worst.

2. The fans would have no real fat in the fire. It’s easy to vote to trade for Pujols if you are not bearing the brunt of the economics of the decision. I don’t know how many times on this very website during this offseason I’ve read something to the effect of “I don’t care how much of Glass’ money it takes”.

The General Theory of Royaltivity

by kabrink on Mar 19, 2009 3:50 PM EDT reply actions  

to piggyback on this

i think this theory works better in leagues with a salary cap (or even more controlled environments like MLS). this would restrict the things fans clamor for to a more plausible realm.

by benfunke on Mar 19, 2009 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's a stupid model

What Drew Carey failed utterly to take away from his study of English football is that the successful teams on the pitch are ones that mostly ignore the fan base and run their team as a business. The teams with heavy “supporter involvement” are almost universally on the promotion/relegation yo-yo and constantly in the papers with stories about the chaos in the board room.

This space for rent.

by jonfmorse on Mar 19, 2009 4:10 PM EDT reply actions  

what I don't get

Is this idea is not common.

I think its being portrayed as part of world football culture, when in fact there is all of one team in the world (a League Two, which means terrible, English team) that gives fans as much ability as setting a line-up.

If this is nothing more than letting fans get involved in what types of promotions they would like to see, then I don’t see this a meaning anything. Do Sounders fans actually get to do anything?

It might get a little confused with the fact that a lot of European teams are publicly traded companies, but those shareholders have about as much power as any other shareholder of any company has.

by ZeppelinDZ on Mar 19, 2009 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do Sounders fans actually get to do anything?

It sounds like they get to “advise.” Hell, you could say that we are “advising” the Royals. They just don’t listen to us. This sounds like a fanbase-placating PR move.

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Mar 19, 2009 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

A team with a council full of Gloads

will win the World Series every year.

WTF, self?

by minda33 on Mar 19, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

No way

Not while there are still fans who believe Guillen was the most productive offensive player for the Royals because of his counting stats and think that he’s a good defensive player because of his error and assist numbers.

Kansas City Royals: your 2006 and 2007 NL Central champions!

by mazoboom on Mar 19, 2009 5:17 PM EDT reply actions  

Oh, there would absolutely be fisticuffs...

if there were ever any real world, face-to-face meetings between the old school/traditional faction and the new school/advanced stats faction of the Team Council. Good lord. It would make these look like a 2nd grade girls’ slap fight.

You’d best be ready to throw down at the drop of a hat if you’re a politician in Taiwan. Bitches.

"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae

by Sweep_the_Leg on Mar 19, 2009 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

RBIIIIIZZZZZ MOTHERF**KER!!!!!1111

"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae

by Sweep_the_Leg on Mar 19, 2009 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Things were better in 1798 in America too

After Griswold surprise attacked Lyon with his cane, Lyon attacks Griswold with fire tongs.

Kansas City Royals: your 2006 and 2007 NL Central champions!

by mazoboom on Mar 19, 2009 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

But what about the Hooligans? Do we get them too?

Can we throw flares at the Yankees?

Will beers be renamed “Mexicutioner Sodas?”

by Official Arrowhead Pride Parade on Mar 19, 2009 5:28 PM EDT reply actions  

I own one share of stock in the Packers

The shareholders have basically one function that actually does something: they elect the board of directors. Since I got my share in 1997, the shareholders have basically rubber stamped every slate of directors presented to them. Unless the team had drastic problems and someone got together an alternate slate and elected them, I don’t see the shareholders doing anything that would affect the team, the team president basically does what the owners of other teams do. They only difference is that the team president isn’t putting their own money into the team.

Sponsor of the Sidney Ponson page at Baseball-Reference.com

by Mary1966 on Mar 19, 2009 6:06 PM EDT reply actions  

Great

If this was the case with the Chiefs, Bobby Sippio would be the #2 receivers. Fans are just too emotionally vested with a team to be allowed to make anykind of decision regarding how that team is run. Great idea in theory perhaps but a disaster waiting to happen.

by stram#1 on Mar 19, 2009 6:11 PM EDT reply actions  

Couldn't have turned out much worse

than having him not on the team. It’s not like they were successful with Sippio not the #2 WR. I think we underestimate that coaches are also overly emotionally, physically, and mentally invested in their teams/jobs to make good decisions all the time. Most coaches are just as dumb as the average fan—they just stay at their offices longer.

by mikewormdog on Mar 19, 2009 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

assuming the GM/Coaches had final say, then maybe this would at least find a way for the GM to be obligated to explain why Sippio (for example) isn’t getting the playing time the fans are asking for. it could actually improve fan relations with the team (probably more important for a team with a fan base like the Royals than a team like the Chiefs)

by benfunke on Mar 19, 2009 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

You actually think a Royals season ticket holder is capable

of these decisions? I surely don’t. No doubt we’d have the worst team in baseball again, and after the novelty of the concept wore off, we’d have no season ticket holders either. I don’t like a lot of what Dayton Moore has done, but I bet the fans would do worse.

by AxDxMx on Mar 19, 2009 7:40 PM EDT reply actions  

FRANK WHITE AS MANAGER NOW!!!!

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Mar 19, 2009 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

You wouldn't respect the opinion of season ticket holders?

Especially the one’s that have been here since day one?
C’mon they’ve seen a lot of baseball!!!!1

by Royal from Queens on Mar 19, 2009 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just like the all-knowing BBWAA!

Kansas City Royals: your 2006 and 2007 NL Central champions!

by mazoboom on Mar 20, 2009 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

I might be willing to go for it if Glass hadn’t changed his approach to funding the team and if DM wasn’t steadily improving the roster.
I would really go for it if members could block the team from moving.

by sfeldkamp on Mar 19, 2009 8:29 PM EDT reply actions  

I realize that it's not a good idea.

But I voted ‘yes’ because it would be fun as hell and we won’t have much to lose this year anyway.

by belt on Mar 19, 2009 9:14 PM EDT reply actions  

think of the power it would give some of the local media guys

kevin keitzman “riling up our base”, trading our farm + cash considerations for jeter.

by 9il on Mar 19, 2009 10:12 PM EDT reply actions  

It appears the mob opposes mob rule

I wonder what happens if the Sounders Alliance gives itself a no confidence vote.

by Trey Hillman's Chin on Mar 19, 2009 11:18 PM EDT reply actions  

I didn't read anyone else's comments but

that would be the most ridiculous thing ever. Maybe for some things it’d be cool but jeeze louise, what’d be the point of even hiring a guy and paying him if you can “out source” it to the fans for free?

by Royal from Queens on Mar 19, 2009 11:49 PM EDT reply actions  

We haven't even taken the players into account yet

People say the Royals have trouble getting FAs to sign now, just imagine how bad it would be if the team were directed by the fans. Would any player want to sign with a team that makes outrageous decisions or could turn on you for having a rough stretch.

by BrRoyal on Mar 20, 2009 8:25 AM EDT reply actions  

was away from the computer when this was originally posted

can’t post from the BlackBerry yet. Good stuff, though. Rec’d.

Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary to Driveline Mechanics and elsewhere since sometime in 2008.

by Matt Klaassen on Mar 22, 2009 4:08 PM EDT reply actions  

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