Poll: How do you rate Dayton Moore?
This has been a contentious off-season for the Royals. There are a lot of strong opinions about Dayton Moore bouncing around the site. Maybe it’s a good time to run a poll to gage the overall opinion of Moore here at Royals Review.
In order to make this post seventy five words long I will include these words. This is a simple poll. No need to over think it. I think I am around seventy five words now. If not, Screw Flanders.
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96 comments
Comments
The roster continues to get better.
I know many think he could have done better with the Ramirez/Nunez trades and spent his Free Agent money more efficiently but the Royals maintained an excellent bullpen and upgraded two position spots without tieing up any payroll past two years.
by djk royal on Mar 2, 2009 10:57 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I give Moore a B
I am very unhappy with him in certain ways, but overall I think he has done much more good than harm. I think a simple test works here. Think back to the state of the franchise in 2005, and look at it now. The Royals are much better on the field now, and their minor league system is in much better shape. Sure, Moore has more money to work with than did Baird, but I think there is more going on here than just having a larger budget.
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by James Quinn on Mar 2, 2009 10:57 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I tend to vacillate between C- and C+
So I’ll give him a gentleman’s C. He’s done quite a few things right and quite a few things wrong during his tenure. Unfortunately I think the Royals need a genuinely good GM to get them over the top. I kind of think that his largely poor track record with free agents is really going to make it difficult for him to get the Royals to a division title. A whole lot of prospects are going to have to pan out.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Mar 2, 2009 11:03 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
C+ for me
Trades have been meh. Nothing terrible, but nothing that really seems to be drastically improving this ballclub.
Free agents have been a mixed bag, but I think it has been slightly more negative than positive. Meche was a very good signing, guys like Riske and Mahay were good signings, but Guillen was a terrible signing and I’m not at all optimistic about Farnsworth.
Drafts look very promising. It will have to be his saving grace I think.
Locking up young players – A. Great to lock down Soria and Zack. I also think its wise he has resisted the temptation to lock down Gordon. Alex still needs to prove himself.
Roster management is less than impressive. Gload is a roster clog. Pena shouldn’t be in the big leagues. Spending $6 million on two mediocre catchers seems unwise. Keeping Gobble for a million bucks over Musser or other guys seems a waste (particularly when your manager doesn’t believe in LOOGYs).
Still, he is an upgrade over Baird (although we should also consider the payroll is about three times what it was when Baird was here)
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Mar 2, 2009 11:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure whether he has actually "resisted" on Gordon, or whether it's wise
The rumor was that they wanted to get both him and Greinke resigned this offseason. But I’ve also read that Casey Close (Gordon’s agent) has a rep. for not re-upping befoer FA, although I don’t know it’s as sure a thing as with Boras, for example.
I tend to think they should lock Alex up. No, he’s not a superstar, and it doesn’t look like he’ll be one. Byt he’s already been average or above both years. Yes, even in 2007, when his offense was horrible, he as a good defender, somewhere beetween +4 and +8 runs on most of the PBP systems. This season, his defense fell off a little bit (although not nearly to the “position switch” level that Rany freaked out over due to using another broken BP stat in FRAA), but only to the extend that we can expect him to be at least average in the near future. HIs hitting improved, too.
One thing that is a bit worrisome is Will Carroll’s comments on Gordon’s health report — now, I don’t know how to take these. Is Carroll actually a doctor? Not that non-doctor’s can’t have insight into these matters…
That aside I don’t know how long until arbitration, but I tend to think that it’s better to try to lock Gordon up (if he and his reps are open, of course) now, before he has a big leap in production. If you can buy him out through his arb years and get some FA years (or options) on the end for substnatially less (also account for the arb. discount) than a league average player would make through those years, do it. Don’t think of it as a “reward” for a player, but as a way of helping the team in the future — no, he’s not a star, but do you really want to have to pay a 30 year old guy $10M (or whatever league-average salary is) a year for that kind of production in the future ?
Just like with FAs, I think it’s a good idea to sign a guy before a big year, not right after. If Gordon goes .280/.380/.510 on the league next year (unlikely, but not impossible), or even “only” .275/.368/.495, that will be great. But then the Royals might end up having to pay him as if he’s going to do that going forward, when he would be likely (probably — I’ haven’t done a long-term projection based on that possibiilty or anything) to regress a bit in the following years…
That’s how I think of it anyway. Sign him now — now’s when the deal is best. In a analogous way, it’s like signing Jose Guillen before his big “bounceback” in 2007 when the could get him at the low price, rather than after it, when his asking price went up. Or getting Frank Thomas when the As got him the first time, rather than after that year when. J. P. gave him that ill-considered deal. I’m trying to think about applying that to resigning young, pre-FA/arb guys.
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by devil_fingers on Mar 2, 2009 12:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
I actually agree with almost everything Retro said, except for the Gordon stuff. We don’t know if Moore made any long-term offer to Gordon. But I do think locking him up long-term would be a good idea. He’s above average now and likely to get better.
One thing that is a bit worrisome is Will Carroll’s comments on Gordon’s health report — now, I don’t know how to take these. Is Carroll actually a doctor? Not that non-doctor’s can’t have insight into these matters…
I don’t know if he’s a doctor, but his methdology is basically empirical. I’m not sure of all of the variables he uses, but he plugs in data like age, body size/type, position, injury history (including the nature of injury(ies) and days on DL) to determine risk of future injury. It’s kind of the injury version of PECOTA.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Mar 2, 2009 12:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You make good points
I think I’m more bullish on locking players up than most are. I think its generally a good thing, but I don’t think the reward is as high as some think it is.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Mar 2, 2009 1:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
B
A-Convincing Glass to open the checkbook
A-Development (internationally and amateur draft)
A-Changes to front office
C- Trades
D- Free Agency
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.
by kcscoliny on Mar 2, 2009 11:22 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
those aren't minuses by the way
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.
by kcscoliny on Mar 2, 2009 11:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
whew, I was going to have to report you to Dick Kaegel
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by devil_fingers on Mar 2, 2009 12:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you're giving the meche signing a D?
Boooooo
That's why we play the season on paper.
by 306008 on Mar 2, 2009 12:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He's signed more than just Meche
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.
by kcscoliny on Mar 2, 2009 12:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i like that he signs starters
to keep young talent in Omaha, but the Gload (not a pitcher, i know) and Ramirez signings are inexcusable.
The offers he made to Batista and Jones also could have made us uncompetitive for a couple years.
by 9il on Mar 2, 2009 2:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You can't downgrade a guy
for offers that didn’t workout. For all we know he offered Tex 4 years 80 M on a napkin in Vegas and he turned it down.
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.
by kcscoliny on Mar 2, 2009 2:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I meant offers that weren't accepted
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.
by kcscoliny on Mar 2, 2009 2:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i think i can
offering a big contract to a bad player is a bad sign. maybe things are not accurately reported, but seeing how much he’s willing to spend on marginal players, i’m willing to give those reports more consideration.
by 9il on Mar 3, 2009 2:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I pretty well agree.
I would give him a B instead of a C for trades. I also like his decision to replace Bell with Hillman.
One additional area – draft. I know it is too soon to judge the 2007 and 2008 drafts but right now I would give them a C. I think he did a poor job with is two first round picks, but I think those drafts might come out looking good in the end due to depth.
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by James Quinn on Mar 2, 2009 11:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree, but I'd split Development
Drafting (both amateur and international) = A
Development = C
So far his biggest promotions from the farm have been Butler, Gordon and Hochevar. There are very good arguments that Gordon and Hochevar were promoted at least 1/2 a year to a year before they were ready.
by Top Ramen on Mar 2, 2009 11:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think they rushed Hoch
I would say Butler and Gordon were rushed at least a half year early but with everyone else in the system he seems to be moving them along correctly. As the team slowly gets better I think he will make the correct adjustments to not rush players to the majors.
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.
by kcscoliny on Mar 2, 2009 11:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The system was worthless when he got this franchise.
And the players in it were not good. I don’t think we can rank development yet and we can’t judge based on who he brought up/sent down because none of those are his players.
That's why we play the season on paper.
by 306008 on Mar 2, 2009 12:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He does get the credit/blame for when he called up the players he inherited
He inherited a handful of pieces of good young talent. How he used and developed them is on him. If he called up Gordon or Butler too soon, then he deserves blame for that.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Mar 2, 2009 12:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just because they aren't his players doesn't
mean they don’t have talent and shouldn’t be used properly. He rushed Gordon and Butler a tad. I think he did it because the major league club needed their talent more than they needed the extra development time. As the big club gets more talented then IMO he will discontinue that.
Baird used Omaha as nothing more than a AAAA roster filler and rehab spot. That was incorrect IMO, hopefully Moore will keep to his original word and use it as another spot for talent to develop even further before landing in KC. Gordon could’ve used that extra year of seasoning.
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.
by kcscoliny on Mar 2, 2009 12:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
Especially with this:
Gordon could’ve used that extra year of seasoning.
or at least half a year. And the Royals could have used another year of club control, too, especially since they weren’t going to contend in 2007 or 2008.
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by devil_fingers on Mar 2, 2009 2:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
I really don’t get why it was decided to send Butler back to Omaha, but never Gordon. Sending Butler back to AAA seemed to help this year, at least, and, like you said, the Royals really unncecessarily added to Gordon’s service time by not sending him down to Omaha for a couple of months in 2007.
by DarthYoshi on Mar 2, 2009 10:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
gordon seems like a super 2 lock now
by royalsreview on Mar 3, 2009 12:27 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Huh?
You become a super 2 if you’ve played in two and most of a third season (the details are a bit more complicated), then you can go to arbitration with less than 3 years of service time. Gordon has had two. He’ll go to arbitration after his third season (2009) as normal.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Mar 3, 2009 12:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The proper way to get to a word count:
Screw Flanders. Screw Flanders. Screw Flanders. Screw Flanders. Screw Flanders. Screw Flanders. Screw Flanders. Screw Flanders. Screw Flanders. Screw Flanders. Screw Flanders. Screw Flanders. Screw Flanders.
by Top Ramen on Mar 2, 2009 11:33 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
8/10
Kinda old but he looks like he takes care of himself.
Pecota, watch over us.
by castille on Mar 2, 2009 1:15 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
I'dlove to look like Moore
he looks hardcore to me
by royalsreview on Mar 2, 2009 1:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I hear he's pretty short though
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Mar 2, 2009 1:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
interesting
I guess he did look a little shorter than Gammons, who is 90 years old
by royalsreview on Mar 2, 2009 1:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He's like 5-4
I saw him with one of his kids at Fanfest last year and I towered over him. I’m about 6-1.
by AxDxMx on Mar 2, 2009 4:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There are less attractive GMs out there.
One of my female friends said, “I wouldn’t kick him out of bed.”
WTF, self?
by minda33 on Mar 2, 2009 4:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Have you seen the M's new GM?
He looks like Jabba the Hut.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Mar 2, 2009 4:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and I'd bet a small amount of money that's a not insignificant why DMGM was a hotter commodity before they were both GMs
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by devil_fingers on Mar 2, 2009 6:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that only makes me think
of Princess Leia in that skimpy outfit. Yowza.
Fourth to First
by kabrink on Mar 3, 2009 12:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
the real question is...
if one wanted to kick him out of bed on the basis of attractiveness, how did he get into the bed in the first place?
by DarthYoshi on Mar 2, 2009 9:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Normally I'd say alcohol was a factor,
but DM is a moderate man, from what I’ve heard. So I have no idea how he got there, or why he’s eating crackers.
WTF, self?
by minda33 on Mar 2, 2009 11:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
the girl would be the one drinking in that kind of case
Fourth to First
by kabrink on Mar 3, 2009 12:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That was one of my grandpas favorite phrases
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.
by kcscoliny on Mar 3, 2009 8:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I would rank Moore somewhere between a ‘B-’ and a ‘C+’ This offseason has been murky at the absolute best, and that’s including the Arbuckle acquisition and Greinke extension, among other less significant positive moves (Cruz, Waechter, et al). Money distribution and evaluation of offensive talent in MLB, thus far, have been Moore’s glaring weaknesses (especially the latter). However, his rebuilding of the MiLB system, drafts, ability to convince Glass to open the checkbooks have been outstanding. Added emphasis should be placed on the fact that this is perhaps the most difficult market to yield a winning product in sports. Moore certainly has as monumental of an uphill battle to fight as any G.M. in baseball. 6-7 game improvements each season, and evaluation of pitching. Taking over a less than expansion-quality baseball team and forcing near .500 baseball 2 1/2 years later is a minor accomplishment.
So, yeah. ‘B-’ for now. Perhaps ‘C+’. Even if 3-5 of NYRoyal’s ‘worst case scenarios’ come true, that may be enough to force the grade downhill, unfortunately.
The Nation at large. I'll be playing the role of RR Resident Optimist this offseason. What role will you assume?
by Royals Nation on Mar 2, 2009 4:42 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
B+/B
Excellent on pitching: straight A
Excellent on the draft: straight A
Free Agents: C, but all GMs have a few bad contracts
Coaching staff: C+/B-, the jury’s still out, but all signs are good. Retaining McClure was big.
Locking up our own: Soria, Greinke. The trend is good. B+, based on future indications.
- TL
by timlacy on Mar 2, 2009 8:34 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I like Dayton alot
But some good moves.
Some bad moves.
That can only mean one thing. Average.
Atleast he has a vision though. Can I give him a C+?
by Royal from Queens on Mar 2, 2009 9:49 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I consider 'C+' average
There are roughly six grades above it, and six grades below it.
The Nation at large. I'll be playing the role of RR Resident Optimist this offseason. What role will you assume?
by Royals Nation on Mar 3, 2009 12:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The American educational system disagrees
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Mar 3, 2009 12:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, and the scale that JQ put on that poll disagrees too
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Mar 3, 2009 12:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Overall, I think Moore gets a C+/B-
Before the Greinke and Cruz contracts, I wasn’t ready to give Moore anything in the B range, but I think those two signings may salvage what was otherwise a thoroughly mediocre offseason job by GMDM, so a low B- may be appropriate, imo.
Rebuilding the farm system: B. we need more good hitters besdies Hos and Moose—and after them, the cupboard is pretty bare—we’re still a very pitching-heavy system…which may end up being for the best, since Moore has proven to be inconsistent in evaluating non-pitching talent.
Free agents: D+. Meche and Riske were the only two outstanding FA signings Moore has made, and some have been downright boneheaded (Guillen and Farnsworth in particular, as well as extending Gload. Yabuta was a mistake, but few people thought so at the time, including me). Signing Dotel and subsequently flipping him for Davies is looking more and more like a smart move, so I’m reserving judgment somewhat.
Trades: C-. I’m mostly with Retro on this one—mostly meh. For every Bannister-for-Burgos move that Moore makes, we have to deal with a Nunez-for-Jacobs screw-up. But I’m inclined to cut Moore a little slack here, because his mistakes haven’t hurt the club on the same magnitude as, say, the Guillen signing has.
Locking up our talent: B+. Greinke contract is likely very fair to both sides, I think the Royals seriously got the better end of the Soria extension. If Gordon has a strong first half to 2009, I hope Moore starts talking an extension with Gordon’s agent as well. The fact that Moore has sometimes extended the wrong talent (see also: R. Gload, M. Olivo) prevents this grade from being an A.
Drafting: A-. Part of the reason I rate this so high is because it is further proof of Moore’s ability to get Glass to write a lot of seven-figure checks. Yes, the Royals spent a ton on this year’s amateur draft, but the fact that we spent so much, given the Scrooge McPinch tendencies of the franchise in years past, is cause for encouragement, not concern. And Moore is clearly not afraid of Scott Boras, which, all things considered, is probably a good thing.
Acquiring former Braves and Mariners: A double-plus. Clearly the most important category to grade Moore on, and he passes with flying colors.
Not being Allard Baird: A solid A. But if Moore had traded Billy Butler for Yuniesky Betancourt, I would have cried.
by DarthYoshi on Mar 2, 2009 9:55 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Thank you Bill Bavasi, your stupidty may have set the Mariners back
but it saved the Royals’ ass
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by devil_fingers on Mar 2, 2009 10:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just think, if they had Jose Guillen last year…….oh, what could have been…..
The Nation at large. I'll be playing the role of RR Resident Optimist this offseason. What role will you assume?
by Royals Nation on Mar 3, 2009 12:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I just wish
Signing Dotel and subsequently flipping him for Davies is looking more and more like a smart move
he had done this with Mahay last July. I know this was a very tough call and admit that I didn’t know what I would really do at the time. But, his value was high, he’s a bit aged, probably we should always play those odds and move that kind of guy.
Fourth to First
by kabrink on Mar 3, 2009 1:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Do you have any idea what the Royals really could have gotten for Mahay last July?
I mean, we could guess, but that’s about all.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Mar 3, 2009 1:07 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No
However, I think we all probably agree that he had high value at that time. We also could not foresee an injury. I also said I was unsure at the time as well. I’m admitting that I’m speculating. But, high value, old guys is probably a good odds move – yes, if you can get something of value back that is younger.
Fourth to First
by kabrink on Mar 3, 2009 1:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He had some value at the time. Did the GM's of contending teams think that he had high value? I don't really know
Good prospects and good young talent are valued very highly nowadays. It is now rare for teams to ship genuinely good prospects at the deadline for a middle reliever. Mahay was having a good season, but he’s also pretty old. And maybe he was already experiencing the plantar fasciitis. That tends to be a long-term, nagging problem that just gets worse and worse, rather than something that just springs up like a pulled muscle or tendon. If he already had the problem, then he wouldn’t have passed the trade physical and Moore would have a reputation for trying to trade damaged goods.
My point is that there are many unknowns here. We don’t know how other teams valued Mahay. We don’t know who, if anyone, was actually offered for him. We don’t know if Moore shopped him or not. We don’t know if he was fully healthy at the time.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Mar 3, 2009 1:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
kinda off topic...
but its interesting how you use the ‘we dont really know what was out there’ thing with regards to situations like Mahay but then I’m pretty sure you’ve said something along the lines of ‘we were bidding against ourselves’ on guillen….my wording isnt exact but its been something along those lines. In your mind, what is the difference? We dont KNOW what other offers were out there for guillen…only what is reported in the media…which is exactly what we have for the mahay situation
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Mar 3, 2009 4:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
whatever was out there...
it was likely a better option than paying a 38 year old reliever $4 million
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Mar 3, 2009 3:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, especially since Mahay wasn't really that great anyway
if you’re willing to trade Nunez, who was as good or better, and quite a bit younger and cheaper, for Mike Freaking Jacobs, what does it need to be to trade Mahay?
BTW, I like the Cruz signing, but I also hope Moore is willing to trade him to get younger, as well
It has really struck me that the Royals aren’t that young anymore (not like it’s a secret). Well, they still need to be.
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by devil_fingers on Mar 3, 2009 1:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't really have a problem with acquiring guys who are "pushing 30"
That’s not exactly old, even in baseball terms.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Mar 3, 2009 1:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Is there somewhere on B-R or BP that has "average age"
I don’t care in particular, but in general, I suspect that eams that show improvement from year-to-year have younger rosters — on average, of course.
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by devil_fingers on Mar 3, 2009 2:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
B-R has it on each season's team page
The 2008 Royals were at 28.0 years of age. I agree with your hypothesis in general. But I think a key is whether the younger and older guys are regulars, and whether they are long-term contract guys or short-term space fillers. Guillen is a regular with a long-time contract. Farnsworth is a middle reliever with a 2-year contract. Mahay, Gload and Bale are on the final year of their deals and are either just middle relievers or bench players. Bloomquist is whatever he is. My point is that if you have some short-term role players that skew your age up, that doesn’t necessarily detract from the improvement you get from your many young regulars.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Mar 3, 2009 2:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Age data from B-R
Royals average age
2004 – 29.0
2005 – 28.0
2006 – 29.7
2007 – 28.0
2008 – 28.0
Give aging, additions and subtractions, the 2009 team must be older than 28.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Mar 3, 2009 2:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
does someone keep an "effective age" stat
or weighted age, which weights PAs and IPs?
by royalsreview on Mar 3, 2009 2:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not that I know of
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Mar 3, 2009 2:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
there are two universal maxims of the Kansas City Royals...
they are currently in a “youth movement.”
they are currently not in a “youth movement.”
by DarthYoshi on Mar 3, 2009 1:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sometimes teams are mixed between younger and older players
And that’s not entirely a bad thing.
And this team isn’t that old. There are only a handful of players that are likely to be on the 25-man roster who will be over 30 on opening day:
Bale
Farnsworth
Mahay
Gload
Bloomquist
Guillen
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Mar 3, 2009 1:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Mere speculation
but Mahay almost certainly would have returned Anthony Reyes, who was not exactly a hot commodity, but younger, cheaper, more talented, and at a more valueable position. I’d much rather have Reyes in HoRam’s spot, and granted that spot should be for Bannister/Hoch, but had the Reyes deal been done HoRam could be in Mahay’s spot, where he’d be serviceable, with Reyes competing with Banny and Hoch for the last spot in the rotation.
If you went with the most talented 5 as starters, then Banny seems like a good long-relief type. Not really basing that on anything, but he’s got a bit of control, and seems to be heady when “on”. You know, generic mostly nonsense positives people use to optimistically describe pitchers whose ineffectiveness as starters leaves them in long relief roles would loosely apply.
Of course, the management has very misplaced judgment on the intangible “value” of having a left handed starter, of which we are all to aware heading into the second consecutive year of some a-hole being given a starter’s role solely based on handedness.
by dn_311 on Mar 3, 2009 2:20 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Oh, and as a grade........
C———-|—-C+
Dayton, of course being represented by the break in segmentation
Eye-balling it looks to be about C.778
by dn_311 on Mar 3, 2009 2:23 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I voted B
If there had been a B-, I’d have gone for that. Dayton’s done a lot to turn this club from the laughingstock of the league into a fairly decent team that might well go .500 this year. He’s done a lot of things right, and most of the stuff that didn’t work out were still defensable moves. (Say, for example, signing Tomko; they needed a warm body for the fifth starter and Tomko was a cheap gamble. Or Yabuta. He did well in Japan, has a deceptive delivery, and wasn’t too expensive either. Or Bloomquist. Too expensive, but the guy is a competent and versatile utilityman with grit.)
But he has made two undeniably stupid moves, signing Guillen and Farnsworth, and both of those cost a lot of money that could have been put to much better use. He also wanted to do something else extremely stupid, sign Andruw Jones, and it’s a good thing Jones turned down his offer.
It's pronounced Poo-ZHOLS in Catalan.
by Juancho on Mar 3, 2009 2:58 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
More undeniably stupid Moore moves...
Trading for Pena
Signing Gload to a multi year multimillion dollar deal
Bloomquist
2 $3 million averageish catchers with the same skillset
Affeldt for Shealy
HoRam Act 2
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Mar 3, 2009 4:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh contraire
“Undeniably” means I can’t do this:
Trading a nobody for Pena was defensible. Allowing him to continue starting was undeniably stupid.
Affeldt for Shealy was seen as a positive at the time. It may have been a failure, but trying to get a starting 1B for a reliever is not a stupid move.
by BrRoyal on Mar 3, 2009 8:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
pena was going to be available for free like 3 days later...
and we traded a guy we had just given alot of money to. And there are always better options than guys who arent great fielders and are rocking minor league OPS of like 650 just waiting by the phone.
I didnt like the Shealy for Affeldt b/c Shealys numbers were very obviously inflated by altitude…and he wasnt young
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Mar 3, 2009 5:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No one else was going to trade for Pena?
At the time, at least two other teams were reportedly interested in him. We gave a lot of money to Cordier? How much? A typical draft signing bonus?
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Mar 3, 2009 5:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
a 2nd round signing bonus...
and even if teams wanted pena…which ive seen nothing indicating they did (feel free to correct me)…he didnt project to be above replacement level based on what he did in the minors
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Mar 3, 2009 10:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I remember reports at the time of two other teams interested in him. Were those reports correct? Were other teams interested? I have no idea. But that was the word at the time. And I doubt the Royals spent a lot of money on Cordier. Certainly signing bonus money shouldn’t keep a team from trading a prospect. And while Pena was a low-ceiling player, Cordier wasn’t much of a prospect because of injury. At the time of the trade, he’d had two major injuries which led to two major surgeries. Since the trade he’s had another one. So it was kind of a junk for junk trade.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Mar 3, 2009 11:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Would signing
Jones been a bad move really? At the time no one saw this Grand Canyon cliff coming. Maybe you all are soothsayers but he was and is still a great defensive CF’r. Also was only 30/31 at the time, it would’ve turned out bad but at the time I doubt everyone would’ve been killing it quite as badly as they are now.
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.
by kcscoliny on Mar 3, 2009 8:56 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
A+
because I said so
Founder of the Johnny Giavotella fan club.
by doublestix on Mar 3, 2009 4:35 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Well, after 130 votes,
Dayton Moore clearly has the RR vote of confidence. 96 positive vs. 7 negative appraisals.
www.rockchalktalk.com for pretty good KU baseball coverage
by James Quinn on Mar 3, 2009 8:39 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I'm not really a Moore fan...
but its tough to say he’s been bad. Although, I also have a hard time seeing how an A grade is even remotely justifiable. He’s been given a shit ton more money to play with in every regard…from the major league roster, to his assistants in the front office, to the scouting, to the draft, to LA…and he’s still relying heavily on Allard’s guys
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Mar 3, 2009 5:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
A and F grades for Moore seem pretty indefensible
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Mar 3, 2009 5:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't just look at negative versus positive...
a lot of the positive appraisals so far (including my own) seem somewhat lukewarm. I think better put, Moore’s support at RR may be a mile wide, but it is also an inch deep.
by DarthYoshi on Mar 3, 2009 5:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hi Darth
Yes, that is my take as well. Most folks gave Moore a B, but I sense that there are a lot of soft B’s out there, mine included.
If the Royals win fewer than 75 games this year, or if Moustakas or Hosmer fail to impress, I think I would drop him to a C next year.
www.rockchalktalk.com for pretty good KU baseball coverage
by James Quinn on Mar 3, 2009 7:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He's drops to a C if the Royals win less than 75?
Barring a bunch of incredible injuries, it strikes me that the Royals winning less than 75 would mean that a “D” would be generous, given what that would say about his acquisitions.
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary since sometime in 2008.
by devil_fingers on Mar 3, 2009 9:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I already think his acquisitions are pretty crappy
I am counting on the younger guys who were on the Royals already to get a bit better, and for Guillen, Gobble and Bannister to bounce back to a degree. I think that will make the Royals better than the 75 win club of last year.
Outside of Cruz I would be pleasantly surprised if any of the new acquisitions made any aspect of the 2009 club better than the 2008 version. Aside from Cruz I do not expect any of the new guys to do anything to improve the club.
www.rockchalktalk.com for pretty good KU baseball coverage
by James Quinn on Mar 3, 2009 9:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
as much as jacobs sucks...
he IS an improvement over Gload…over shealy/kila?…maybe not
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Mar 3, 2009 11:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I just am not sure that Jacobs in the lineup improves the team overall.
I expect Shealy to hit almost as well as Jacobs OPS-wise, and play much better defense.
I just do not expect Jacobs to improve the team. Maybe he will, but if so it would be a pleasant surprise to me.
www.rockchalktalk.com for pretty good KU baseball coverage
by James Quinn on Mar 3, 2009 11:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I hear what you're saying
But if we’re talking about the 2009 offense as compared to the 2008 offense (as opposed to comparing the offense with Jacobs as compared to what it could be with Shealy or Kila at first base), then I think Jacobs represents a clear improvement over the production the Royals got from that position last year.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Mar 4, 2009 1:16 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But whether one expects it or not, if the team regresses, what does that say about Moore? that he’s merely average? seems to me that would say something a bit harsher than that.
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary since sometime in 2008.
by devil_fingers on Mar 3, 2009 11:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see 75 wins as a regression.
It would just be holding steady.
www.rockchalktalk.com for pretty good KU baseball coverage
by James Quinn on Mar 3, 2009 11:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
With the expected development of guys like Butler, Gordon, and Hochevar
…then one should expect the team to improve regardless. If those guys improve and the team only wins 75 games, then it amounts to an overall regression, if you follow my line of thinking. It was Moore’s job to add other pieces to the natural development/improvement of the team. If the moves made actually subtracted wins, then his job for the year is certainly not C-worthy.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Mar 4, 2009 1:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
While I expect 80ish wins, I wouldn't fret too much if they only win 75ish games.
It is probably reasonable to expect a bit of improvement from Butler and Gordon. I don’t really expect to see some of the other young’uns to play better. Specifically Greinke, Soria and Aviles. Just because those three played so well last year. I’d be thrilled if they all just held steady.
I also expect Gobble, Guillen, Teahen and Bannister to play better next year, as 2008 was a down year for all of these guys. I had hopes that Shealy and Maier would prove to be upgrades over Gload and Gathright, but Moore seems to prefer those two buried.
So I am expecting 80-82 wins. But bad things happen. DeJesus gets hurt. Aviles was a mirage. Guillen really does suck as badly as he sucked in 2008. Gordon and Butler go all Mark Quinn. Greinke flakes out. The bullpen collapses. I think the Royals’ Pythagorean win total for last year came out to an expectation of 72 or 73. Luck could break in the opposite direction next year and the club might play better but win fewer.
If the Royals win 75 next year that alone wouldn’t cause me to alter my opinion of Dayton Moore. His overall performance will still outweighs inevitable shifts in win totals. Of course, my somewhat favorable view of him is built largely on the growing win totals he has produced, so this is a disproportionately important in his case.
What would really make me like him more – seeing Moustakas and Hosmer excel this year. Not just play pretty good in some areas (as Moustakas did last year) but really excel like a top-five overall draft choice should. What those two do is much more important in my eyes than whatever good or ill will come out of that grab bag of free agents he dragged through the door this winter.
www.rockchalktalk.com for pretty good KU baseball coverage
by James Quinn on Mar 4, 2009 10:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Boy your opinion of Moustakas's 2008 season really is unchanged
Still seems like you are looking at his raw numbers without taking his league into account. His OPS in the Midwest League was the equivalent of a .950 OPS in a hitter’s league.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Mar 4, 2009 2:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You already know all this
Moustaka’s had good offensive numbers. Not exceptional offensive numbers. I know, we disagree. We’ll see how this year plays out. I hope he does better.
Moustaka’s failed out at SS and is now going to play a non-premium position unless he moves to catcher.
For the #2 pick in the draft one coud expect a lot more than the above. Moustaka’s is still a very good prospect.
Two years in a row Moore has gambled with a close to “can’t miss” level draft choice by taking high school hitters. There was no need to for this. I hope he was right. So far Moustaka’s performance has not lived up the confidence shown him.
www.rockchalktalk.com for pretty good KU baseball coverage
by James Quinn on Mar 4, 2009 3:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
An analogy
You see a homeless guy (i.e., the Royals in 2006).
You go up to him and say:
In this envelope I have $5,000 for you. In the other one I have either $7,000 or $500. Which envelope do you want?
Homeless Dayton grabbed the second envelope.
www.rockchalktalk.com for pretty good KU baseball coverage
by James Quinn on Mar 4, 2009 3:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think so
The vast majority of prospect analysts don’t think so.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Mar 4, 2009 3:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

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