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Cheering against Horacio Ramirez

Yesterday Horacio Ramirez was terrible.  And Trey Hillman knows it. 

I don't like the idea of cheering against a player on my favorite team, but I can't help hoping that HoRam continues his display of ineptitude so as to pitch himself out of the rotation.  I think that the Royals have a small shot at the division this year, and that shot decreases with every start Ramirez makes.  At the same time, I'm not sure the alternatives are all that great:

 

(I know, ST stats are useless, but)

Bannister has been BAD this ST

Hochevar looks like the same inconsistent pitcher he was last season. (I think he's #4 in the rotation right now.)

Sidney Ponson has shown very little over the past five years that makes me confident. 

Ducky can't make his cameo this early in the season.

Lenny Dinardo seems very hittable.

Heath Phillips only started 7 games last year in AAA and he's never broken through. 

Am I missing anyone?

 

Another factor in this is that Ramirez wasn't the only pitcher who was bad yesterday.  The two teams combined for 15 homeruns! So, while Ramirez won't get a full pass on yesterday (Hillman was sure to mention that he got hit HARD.), he might not get ousted for it.

 

So, two questions:

1.) What are your thoughts on cheering against someone on your favorite team (who isn't a total jerk)?

2.) Who gets that rotation spot? And is it worth cheering against Ramirez?

(I know, that's three questions.)

1 recs  |  Comment 40 comments

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My thoughts

1. In games that don’t count, I cheer against players I don’t want on the team or don’t want to start (like HoRam, Gload, Bloomquist and TPJ). In games that count, I don’t root against any Royals player.

2. ST stats really are meaningless. Therefore I can’t really look at the little bit of ST stats we have for these pitchers and get too worried. Similarly, I can’t look at Teahen or Jacobs great stats and get too excited. One can’t discern any reliable meaning from the good or bad stats.

If it were up to me, the season would start with a rotation of (in some order):

Greinke
Meche
Davies
Hochevar
Bannister

HoRam would be in the bullpen where he might be useful. Duckworth, Ponson, Dinardo, Phillips and Wright would be in Omaha providing depth, which is why they they are in the organization.

(The following is not about BrRoyal in particular) I’ve read several comments/posts over the past week which have been some version of “I now ST stats are meaningless, but I’m really worried about these ST stats!” Does anyone else see the contradiction here. Either these stats have meaning, or they don’t.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Mar 23, 2009 9:56 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I think the general feeling...

is that people try to temper their emotions regarding ST stats versus regular season stats. Everyone knows that a variety of factors go into their creation…not very many guys are trying that hard (especially early in ST), they come against a lot of random guys on other teams that probably won’t be on the 25-man roster when the teams break camp, etc.

I think when it becomes an issue is when the stats are either REALLY good or REALLY bad. You try hard not to get too excited about a guy lighting it up, and you try not to flip out if a guy looks godawful. But…it’s hard sometimes to not get really excited, or to not be really worried. That’s when you see people assigning meaning to ST stats…at the extremes.

"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae

by Sweep_the_Leg on Mar 23, 2009 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That’s when you see people assigning meaning to ST stats…at the extremes.

I’m sure that’s true. However, it doesn’t make it any more rational.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Mar 23, 2009 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I thought

There was some evidence that extreme ST stats may have some significance?

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Mar 23, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

A very little

Extreme SLG suggests that the player is more likely than not to hit somewhat better in the coming year than his career averages. So the correlation is not strong, not does it predict something significant. I’ve seen nothing like this with regard to pitchers.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Mar 23, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In this particular case

It’s more a matter of the stats basically appearing to tell us exactly what might have been expected:

Hochevar still needs continuity
Ramirez sucks
Bannister might be awful
Dinardo/Phillips haven’t convinced anyone to give them a shot
Duckworth will give you what he’s got and is useful

In such a case, the Royals have depth for that fifth spot, but none of the guys are really very good (assuming Hochevar is #4). Of course, this seems to be the definition of a 5th starter; it just doesn’t exude confidence.

by BrRoyal on Mar 23, 2009 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So ST stats are meaningful if they are consistent with what you thought going into ST?

No, they aren’t. Just because they ratify one’s preconceived opinions on a player doesn’t mean they are any more meaningful. I’m sorry, but we can’t base sound opinions on meaningless stats.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Mar 23, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't forget Luke Hudson!!!!

I predict he will make one start before injuring himself.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Mar 23, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Part of the problem

is that even if we choose to agree that the ST stats mean nothing in terms of the players’ true performance during the ensuing season, we know that the players ARE being evaluated to some level on those stats by the home team. Aren’t they? So, the makeup of the opening day roster is influenced by them. (I guess unless the home team fully ignores all statistics all the time – which may be the case.)

The General Theory of Royaltivity

by kabrink on Mar 23, 2009 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

even if we choose to agree that the ST stats mean nothing in terms of the players’ true performance during the ensuing season, we know that the players ARE being evaluated to some level on those stats by the home team. Aren’t they? So, the makeup of the opening day roster is influenced by them.

I think the players are more evaluated in a tools-based scouting way than by A-game stats. These guys are playing everyday in workouts, A-games, B-games, simulated games, and minor league games. There’s no reason to just look at A-game stats for all of the reasons I’ve discussed. I think they are evaluated on how good they have been in recent history and how they look this spring (pitch recognition, bat speed, foot speed, stuff, control, etc.).

Also, even if these stats were important to how the FO and manager evaluates the players (and I don’t think they are), then they would be relevant to predicting who will be on the roster and in which roles, not how worried or excited we should be about their 2009 seasons.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Mar 23, 2009 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe you are referring to my ST post where at the end I added the caveat regarding the meaninglessness of ST stats but the entire post was about my impressions while I was down there. I did that as a preemptive measure to avoid the appearance of placing undue emphasis on the performance down there and to avoid, if possible the comment: “it’s ST and thus it doesn’t matter.” I’m aware of the problems with reading too much into ST performance. But I was there and excited that I was finally watching Baseball and I was subjectively assessing what I was witnessing—I couldn’t help it. Perhaps I shouldn’t have posted it because it doesn’t carry statistical weight (I cited no statistics), but I just like to talk baseball as I think we all do—-even when the statistics don’t count. Wow, that’s pretty close to heresy. Don’t send the sabermetric Crusaders, please.

by Steve Hovley on Mar 24, 2009 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

heh

I like the impressionistic posts, keep them up, everyone

Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary to Driveline Mechanics and elsewhere since sometime in 2008.

by devil_fingers on Mar 24, 2009 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It really wasn't about anything in your post

I wasn’t referring to anyone’s subjective scouting opinion from having seen these guys play in spring training (either on TV or in person). I like hearing about how a player is “looking” in spring training. It isn’t going to radically change my opinion of a player, but it is interesting. I’m talking about people talking about and worrying over ST stats. I’ve read several comments in which people first say that ST stats are meaningless and then go on to express varying degrees of concern about a player or players because of his ST stats. It’s like someone saying that he doesn’t believe in astrology but he’s worried because somebody ran the 2009 Royals astrological charts and found them all to be in a down cycle with their moon in Capricorn.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Mar 25, 2009 3:59 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Heath Phillips

Actually seems like a decent option IMHO if you are just dead set on having a lefty in the rotation. John Bale I think could be decent as well. But ideally, I’d probably have NYRoyals’ rotation. I don’t get the lefty-starter fetish.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Mar 23, 2009 10:03 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I do n't get it either

Does DMGM really have it? I don’t read/listen to many of his interviews, but I do remember him saying to Schaum or someone when they asked about the lefty starter thing that he said the right thing — you want the best five out there.

Like I said, he might have given a different answer somewhere else or something, that’s just what I heard that once.

Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary to Driveline Mechanics and elsewhere since sometime in 2008.

by devil_fingers on Mar 23, 2009 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think I've read quotes of DM talking about it for the past couple of years

He does talk about how having a lefty starter would be really good in the AL Central. Often, of course, the quote is something like: “You need your best five starters in the rotation, but you’d really like to have at least one lefty starter, particularly in this division.” What exactly that means with regard to how highly he values a LHP in the rotation is up for interpretation.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Mar 23, 2009 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They've definitely said it a considerable number of times the last couple of years

NYR is right. Bale was last year’s flavor of the month to make sure we had a lefty starter. It’s too bad his arm went rubbery and then stiffened up enough to get broken against a door. He might have been ok as a starter. But, que sera sera.

The General Theory of Royaltivity

by kabrink on Mar 23, 2009 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ponson or Phillips

Gil, Zack, Kyle, Luke and Ponson or Phillips. I have little to no confidence in Brian or HoRam.

I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.

by kcscoliny on Mar 23, 2009 10:57 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

HoRam =

this year’s version of the Brett Tomko experiment

by DarthYoshi on Mar 23, 2009 11:09 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

worse

Founder of the Johnny Giavotella fan club.

by doublestix on Mar 23, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hmm

Ill go with

Meche
Greinke
Davies
Hochevar
Ponson

Bloomquist. God? Or just an illusion? You be the judge.

by focs on Mar 23, 2009 11:34 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

except for a short stretch of starts last year for Texas...

Ponson hasn’t been remotely effective or pitched more than 140 innings a season since 2004…and you want to give him a rotation spot? Why?

by DarthYoshi on Mar 23, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Didn't he dominate the Royals once last season?

Or was that Livan? Or both? It was extremely depressing.

Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary to Driveline Mechanics and elsewhere since sometime in 2008.

by devil_fingers on Mar 23, 2009 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He smoked us

actually he was smoking everyone with Texas until Ron Washington booted him off the team.

The Snozberries taste like Snozberries

by labbadabba on Mar 23, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I know it's none of my business

but is anyone else dying to know what the specific “conduct unbecoming of a teammate” was?

Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary to Driveline Mechanics and elsewhere since sometime in 2008.

by devil_fingers on Mar 23, 2009 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It certainly IS our business

Hmm, lots of examples I can think of. One might entail the dropping a bar of soap or something.

But, more likely, he was Ponnsy Being Manny sort of thing.

The General Theory of Royaltivity

by kabrink on Mar 23, 2009 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Didnt say i wanted to give him a spot

the question was who i think it will be

Bloomquist. God? Or just an illusion? You be the judge.

by focs on Mar 23, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

Founder of the Johnny Giavotella fan club.

by doublestix on Mar 23, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would go with

Meche
Greinke
Davies
Hochevar
Duckworth

With the expectation that a couple of months at AAA will let Banny get his head straight, upon which he will come back up to replace Duckworth (I assume).

Ducky as the 5th guy i think is at least as good as Ponson or HoRam, but he gets lost in the conversation.

The Allard Baird of incisive internet discourse.

by kcbottom9th on Mar 23, 2009 12:38 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

don't know watcha got, 'til it's gone

Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary to Driveline Mechanics and elsewhere since sometime in 2008.

by devil_fingers on Mar 23, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I could see a scenario where Horam makes the team and is in the bullpen

I think Bale and Waechter could end up on the DL. That give the team some time to decide what to do with Horam while letting him pitch out of the pen. I imagine the 5th starter would be Banny or Ponson in that case.

by jsolo on Mar 23, 2009 2:16 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

HoRam sucks

i was BEYOND thrilled when i came home to see he sucked yesterday.

Founder of the Johnny Giavotella fan club.

by doublestix on Mar 23, 2009 2:44 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

HoRam

is this years Brett Tomko.

by BlueBloodRoyal on Mar 24, 2009 9:05 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I think i've read this before

:P

Founder of the Johnny Giavotella fan club.

by doublestix on Mar 24, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't cheer against him.

I’d cheer for all the pitchers that are in the rotation chase because that provides more depth for the team. The more depth within the staff, the better we’ll be. We’ve been lucky that some of these guys haven’t gone down with big injuries but that could always change.

I’d prefer HoRam to Banni simply because we can sandwich him between hard throwing righty and the extreme movement righty… the Braves (notice the reference) strategy with Smoltz, Glavine, Maddux, and the rest. It worked there, it will work here. HoRam just has to do a better job spotting up. I’d still flip Banni for whatever we can get because I think his stock will fall before it rises.

Everyone's recruits look better than ours.

by 306008 on Mar 24, 2009 3:57 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Maybe it's just me

but I’m guessing that Smoltz, Glavine, and Maddux where dominating more because, I dunno, they were really good pitchers more than the increased “confusion” over having to face a lefty between two righties.

Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary to Driveline Mechanics and elsewhere since sometime in 2008.

by devil_fingers on Mar 24, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

totally dude

Yes I think you might be onto something there. I guess I still think we’d simply be better off pitching our 5 bestest pitchers whether they be all lefties, all righties, or whatever.

The General Theory of Royaltivity

by kabrink on Mar 24, 2009 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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