JoePo talks to scouts
Good column mentioning what the scouts are saying about the Royals. I wonder if the guy who predicted 15 wins for Tomko will ever be outed.
8 months ago
raefzilla
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I like the part about Aviles being better this season
way to temper expectations. The guy was the best hitting shortstop in the Al last season, the best defender. He was also a hell of a basrunner. In barely more than 2/3s of a season, he as about 5 wins about replacement, so over a full season, he would ahve been about 6.5 WAR — one of the best playersin the league, and clearly the best SS. If he “only” gets 3.5 WAR (I’m expeting something more like 2.5, which will still be very good for a guy making the minimum who most thought would be no more than a utility guy), we should be jumping for joy.
Basically, this scout is saying that Aviles will be right there with Pujols and A-Rod this coming season. Way to temper expectations.
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by devil_fingers on Mar 4, 2009 11:48 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
my point being that people really don't know just how good Aviles was last year
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by devil_fingers on Mar 4, 2009 11:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
very true
the fact that he got like no rookie of the year love kind of proves that too.
DDJ for 20 HR’s is the one I like. How much better would that make the offense if the rest of his line stayed the same.
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.
by kcscoliny on Mar 4, 2009 12:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Compared to last year?
He hit 12 HRs last year. The value of a Hr is generally considered to be about 1.4 runs (because it doesn’t make an out, automatically scores all the runners, etc). 1.4×8 = 11.2. That would be worth more than a win by itself.
I’m more worried abot Aviles. What if he’s only as good as Jimmy Rollins? If that happens the Royals should trade him before he disappoints them further.
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by devil_fingers on Mar 4, 2009 12:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well if Ryan has his way that will happen
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.
by kcscoliny on Mar 4, 2009 12:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
it's one thing to like TPJ
is he actually putting Aviles down now?
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by devil_fingers on Mar 4, 2009 12:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
suggesting
they move him to 2b in favor of TPJ at SS is actually putting Aviles down
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.
by kcscoliny on Mar 4, 2009 12:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't get the "honor" of hearing Ryan talk
so i didn’t realize he was saying that. That’s just soooo stupid.
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by devil_fingers on Mar 4, 2009 12:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well he didn't exactly say that
he said he thought the Royals would be best defensively if they could have TPJ at SS and Aviles at 2nd. But I don’t even know if that’s true, Pena’s defense has seemed to tank ever since everyone said, “well at least his defense is really good.”
by I need more Esteban on Mar 4, 2009 6:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
whoa there
“The guy was the best hitting shortstop in the AL last season, the best defender.”
Saying Aviles was the best hitting shortstop is one thing—I think it implies that he was the best hitter which is slightly different than saying he had the most success when the latter is more accurate—but best defender? Easy there. 2/3 of a season of questionalbe defensive statistics isn’t nearly enough to make such a strong statement, especially when it flies directly in the face of scouting wisdom. If you want to say Aviles is an elite defender at SS, you’re just going to have to wait till there’s more data. Until then, we’re going to have to give some weight to the opinions of the people who know baseball and watch him play every day.
by kcdc1 on Mar 4, 2009 1:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
if you can link some scouting reports, fine
please do
One on the majors. Maybe that Mellinger piece. The scouts doubted him there. They said he as only “above average” at short
I wonder if those were the same scouts who a year earlier were saying he couuldn’t handle short in the majors at all?
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by devil_fingers on Mar 4, 2009 1:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and by the way
I personally doubt that Aviles is a great defender — probably above average at best. But then, I doubt he is also truly as good a hitter as he was last season.
one can go through streaks as a defender just like on offense. yes, the natures of offensive and defensive statistics are different — defensive stats don’t get to "true talent’ and performance nearly as well as offense, I acknowledge that. I’m simply talking about hte information we have at our disposal.
Simply citing “scouts” in general and “watching them play every day” without specific backup, though, is an appeal to anonymous authority that shuts down discussion rather than opening it up.
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by devil_fingers on Mar 4, 2009 2:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I liked the "if everything went right" caveat
on the Tomko prediction. Well, sure, I could win 15 if everything went right, its just that the chances of everything going right are about 1 in 19389483902098.
We always did feel the same, We just saw it from a different point of view, Tangled up in blue.
-Bob Dylan
by Royal Kingdom on Mar 4, 2009 12:18 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I think that would include
Breaking your arm and having it heal so that you could throw 100 mph like Henry Rowenger.
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by RoyalsRetro on Mar 5, 2009 10:16 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
scouts are never outed
they hide behind their old-school anonymity
meanwhile, the statheads put stuff out there, then have their predictions cherry-picked and mocked by the ravechs of teh world
by royalsreview on Mar 4, 2009 2:09 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Well they are computers that have no feelings
so I guess they can handle it.
by raefzilla on Mar 4, 2009 3:40 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Well, most scouts
“You will remember this day. You will remember this day for the rest of your life.”
by Top Ramen on Mar 4, 2009 6:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
it's easy to take criticism from
mom’s basement.
I just got back from your mom's basement.
by Warden11 on Mar 4, 2009 6:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's even easier to make criticism from mom's basement
As long as I don’t type too loudly late at night. Mom hates that.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Mar 4, 2009 7:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
true that
she told me.
zing!
Founder of the Johnny Giavotella fan club.
by doublestix on Mar 4, 2009 7:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hey!
That’s my line.
I just got back from your mom's basement.
by Warden11 on Mar 4, 2009 7:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
everyone should be open to criticism
but the statheads seem to get more than those beloved scouts
by royalsreview on Mar 4, 2009 8:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This is a comparison of apples to oranges.
“Statheads” typically publish their analyses under their own names, on the Web or otherwise. Naturally this leaves them open to criticism, including the sort of “peer review” that Tangotiger wrote about yesterday and Shysterball picked up on.
Scouts, on the other hand, are typically employees of a major league club, and the information they provide is usually considered proprietary. Because of this arrangement scouts work in the same capacity as most employees work: they publish little, avoid talking talking with the press in an official capacity, and remain mostly anonymous.
So you would expect one group to be subject to more pointed criticism than the other. Similarly, you would expect the same group that receives more of the criticism to receive more recognition when original insights are published — and this also happens.
So exactly what what you’re getting at here in Round 4387 of Scouts vs. Statheads, I don’t get it.
by 2X2L on Mar 5, 2009 11:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think there's more to it than that
The scouting community “gets it wrong” often. But when a “top prospect” that the scouts thought would be great, the mainstream media doesn’t talk about how stupid those scouts must be. They don’t get ridicule for getting it wrong. But these distrusted sabermetricians and their stats and formulas don’t get such a free ride. When they predict something and are far wrong, they do get ridiculed. When the certitude of scouts turns out to be misplaced, well that’s just baseball. When the predictions/projections of statistical analysts turn out to be wrong, then it is used to indict the whole field.
This isn’t about scouts vs. statheads. It’s about the traditional baseball orthodoxy, here represented primarily by the mainstream sports media, and how they fight against innovation by the use of a particular double standard.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Mar 5, 2009 3:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The mainstream media doesn’t talk about scouts explicitly because they’re part of an organization, often directed to conform to organizational guidelines for identifying talent. When high draft picks fail to advance above the low minors while other picks from the same round or later thrive, the organization that drafted them receives plenty of criticism, and this implicitly falls on the scouts who provided evaluations.
I don’t read about too many scouts with “certitude”, by the way. They usually say things like, “This guy has the tools to become somebody special” rather than “This guy will become somebody special.”
In contrast, statistical projects may be perceived to carry greater “certitude” because the projections take the form of the same quantities and percentages that are used to describe past performance. They look like the kind of thing scouts sometimes say anonymously: “This guy is the next George Brett.” BP with its range of projections is making an effort to counter this perception.
Finally, I think that the claim that the traditional baseball orthodoxy is fighting against innovation is very hard to support these days. Even Brian “Sabermetrics Makes My Head Hurt” Sabean is talking about statistical analysis — in public! Of course we don’t know what methods the Giants’ front office subscribes to, but still, what a difference from just 10 years ago.
I think the likelihood that anyone will find this now that the FanShot has fallen off the main page is pretty small. So I’ll just stop here.
by 2X2L on Mar 5, 2009 5:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Make that “statistical projections may be perceived to carry greater ‘certitude’”…
by 2X2L on Mar 5, 2009 5:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Zach should throw opening day.
(Royals general manager) Dayton Moore sure loves those ex-Braves, doesn’t he?" a baseball observer says.
I am tired of this joke!
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by RoyalsRetro on Mar 5, 2009 10:19 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
That guy’s full of crap.
As is this guy. J. C. Bradbury, what would he know?
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by devil_fingers on Mar 5, 2009 10:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs















