Why Joakim Soria should be a starting pitcher (the WAR story)
Ok, I know this horse has been beaten before, and sure it's dead, but that doesn't mean it couldn't use a few more good whacks.
It is possible that Joakim Soria's mechanics give rise to a significant injury risk if he became a starter. If true, then this is a valid reason for keeping him in the bullpen. But the modern traditionalist opinion is that shutdown closers are extremely important because they spread their influence over so many games. Noted good pitcher, but unspectacular analyst Gil Meche recently churned out another example of this philosophy:
I was actually thinking aobut that this morning. I was brushing my teeth and I was looking at the schedule -- I'd brought the schedule home and Soria was on the front of it. And I thought, 'I really wonder how he would be as a starter? The way he makes his innings so easy.' And then about 10 seconds later, I'm thinking, 'Well, hold on. To have a guy that can just dominate the ninth inning -- in a way, it's more valuable to have that. It's more important to have a guy nailing down games than maybe a starter winning 13 to 14 games.'
I have long opined that Joakim Soria would be more valuable to the Royals as a starting pitcher rather than as a closer, pointing out that a #2-quality starter contributes more to his team than even the most dominant starter. A number of stats and studies pointed in that direction, but at the time I didn't have the excellent total value stat Wins Above Replacement (WAR) at my disposal. My inspiration for this particular punch at ol' Seabiscuit is an excellent article at Lookout Landing about Brandon Morrow's recent assignment to the Mariner's bullpen. This article points out the win value of a dominant closer as compared to starting pitchers. I'm going to borrow from it, expand on some of the numbers and I think it will be clear how much more Soria would help the Royals as a starting pitcher.
Without going into a long, drawn out explanation, WAR is an excellent total value metric for pitchers as well as hitters. It takes into account meaningful stats like FIP or tRA, the innings that he pitches and the leverage of those innings. That last phrase means that WAR accounts for the fact that closer innings are more important innings.
So how many Wins Above Replacement does a dominant closer give to his team? I took arguably the five best closers in recent years, looked at their healthy, full seasons as a closer (since 2002, as this is all I have WAR data for) and averaged their WAR over those seasons. Here are the results:
Francisco Rodriguez (2004-08) 2.5 WAR
Brad Lidge (2004, 2005, 2008) 2.8 WAR Jonathan Papelbon (2006-08) 2.8 WAR Mariano Rivera (2003-08) 2.7 WAR
Joe Nathan (2004-08) 2.6 WAR
From this, it appears that the contribution of a dominant closer is about 2.7 WAR. [For comparison's sake, Soria was at 2.4 WAR in 2007 and 1.5 WAR in 2008, for an average of 2.0] How does that compare to starting pitchers? Here are some starting pitcher numbers from 2008:
| Pitcher | IP | FIP | WAR |
| Lohse | 200 | 3.89 | 3.1 |
| Litsch | 173 | 4.29 | 2.8 |
| Saunders | 198 | 4.36 | 2.8 |
| Eveland | 168 | 4.09 | 2.7 |
| Lilly | 204.2 | 4.41 | 2.7 |
| Maholm | 206.1 | 4.15 | 2.7 |
| Moyer | 196.1 | 4.32 | 2.6 |
| Blackburn | 193.1 | 4.40 | 2.5 |
| Blanton | 197.2 | 4.52 | 2.3 |
| Arroyo | 200 | 4.50 | 2.2 |
In the AL in 2008, the average #3 SP had a FIP of about 4.40. I think the above numbers show that if a pitcher can start for a full season, eat a decent number of innings and pitch at a roughly average, #3 SP level, he will account for around 2.7 WAR. Starters who pitched at the #2 level for a full season (like Weaver, Millwood and Sonnanstine) had WAR's in the 3.4-3.6 WAR range. Therefore, if Soria could pitch at the level of a #2 SP (even a below average #2), then he'd be helping the Royals more than if he continued to develop into one of baseball's most dominant closers. And then there's the upside potential that Soria could become an above average #2 (like Gil Meche, averaging 4.5 WAR over the last two years) or even a legitimate #1 (the sky is the limit, WAR-wise).
So would you rather have Soria in a role where he would top out at 2.7 WAR if he's one of the very best in baseball in that role, or in a role where he could easily manage 3.5-4.5 WAR and has the potential for more than that?
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Comments
I want Soria to be a starter, but your post made me curious about something
If closers were used more intelligently for actual leverage situations instead of for the save stat, I assume their potential WAR would be higher since it takes leverage into consideration, right?
I wonder how high a WAR a well-used fireman could get, if it could rival a SP’s WAR.
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by mazoboom on Apr 1, 2009 7:55 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
yes
that’s an excellent question. I have been on the Start Soria bandwagon for some time. Not because I’m a good analyst but because reading all the arguments and thinking about them, I am convinced. However, it seems very obvious to me that if Soria were used in an old style fireman role, like Quiz, he would be far more valuable.
The General Theory of Royaltivity
by kabrink on Apr 1, 2009 8:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
btw
I seem to remember someone on here analysed Soria’s usage last year to see how many of his appearances occurred with a run advantage of less than 3 runs and more than 3 runs (probably not many), how many were in the 9th, and most importantly how many were with anyone already on base. Essentially, it was a quick study to determine how many of his “saves” were the cheap kind.
This is only one half of your question though.
The General Theory of Royaltivity
by kabrink on Apr 1, 2009 8:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's the spreadsheet I created last year
but never got around to writing a fan shot on: Joakim Usage
Several articles last year lamented that Soria was never used as a stopper out of the bullpen during the losing streaks last year. I was originally trying to look at the usage patterns to see how he was being utilized during those streaks. The game #s in red in the spreadsheet signify losing streaks of 3 games or more. The conclusion after looking at the data was that the bullpen wasn’t really the cause of the losing streaks — it was the offense. Often, the Royals were already down by 3 or more by the time the starter would leave the game in the 6th. So it wouldn’t have helped to use Soria as the first guy out of the pen to stop the losing streaks.
The second thing I looked at in the spreadsheet was the first 3 lineup spot faced in each appearance. It seemed like he faced the 6-7-8-9-1 hitters quite often in the 9th, after a lesser reliever* pitched against the 2-3-4-5 hitters in the 8th. The data seemed to bear that out – he could’ve pitched against the tougher hitters late in the game if it wasn’t for the traditional 9th inning 3-out save usage.
- Even though Ramirez and Nunez were excellent, they weren’t on Soria’s level.
by Top Ramen on Apr 1, 2009 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Soria's a better pitcher t han Ramirez
but Ramirez, despite lesser leverage, had a better FIP-WAR, xFIP, and tRA-WAR last season. He was every bit on Soria’s level. He was also about 1 win more valuable than CoCo Crisp. Hopefully, Crisp will be at least one win better than Ramirez this year, otherwise, that’s another trade Dayton Moore f—-ed up.
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by devil_fingers on Apr 1, 2009 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Certainly, better usage patterns would increase a reliever's leverage and thus increase his WAR
Without me delving into the numbers, it’s hard for me to guess how much.
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by NYRoyal on Apr 1, 2009 8:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm a dunce
but what accounts for the pretty marked drop off in WAR in 08 as against 07? His stats were better across the board save for a very slight drop in K/9 and very slight rise in HR/9. And his average leverage was higher…
I don’t quite get it.
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by kcbottom9th on Apr 1, 2009 9:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Two things
1. He struck out almost 1 batter per 9 ip fewer in 2008 than 2007.
2. The decreasing run environment (which I believe affects FIP’s multiplier) makes even similar stats look worse by comparison to the rest of the league.
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by NYRoyal on Apr 1, 2009 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, and a bit of an increase in his HR/9
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by NYRoyal on Apr 1, 2009 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was also curious about this myself
I could actually live with Soria in the ‘pen if he were used the way a closer was used in the 1980’s. I would totally understand why the Royals brass feel the need to take it easy with Soria—he’s a young guy who has already had Tommy John surgery—but that shouldn’t preclude him from getting closer to 100 IP out of the ’pen.
The only other thing I will say is that I remember reading somewhere that in many instances, the setup man has a tougher job than the closer because the setup man is more likely to have to pitch to the heart of the opposing team’s order, whereas the closer is more likely to pitch to the lower quality hitters further down in the lineup. Am I just delusional, or does anyone else remember hearing something along these lines?
by DarthYoshi on Apr 1, 2009 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, yes, yes, a thousand times yes
I don’t see this ever happening though. If it were going to happen, late last year would have been the time to start the process. But now Dayton thinks they are contending, and we can’t risk taking out our 9th inning closer now!
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Apr 1, 2009 9:31 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Of course, probably a good-to-excellent idea...
but yes, is extremely unlikely to ever happen (especially as more time passes).
I wonder how much of the reluctance to move Soria out of his established role has to do with the Royals’ (recent) history. Not even so much of an isolated incidence of “if it ain’t broke…” with regard to a particular player. More like a much larger, organizational feeling that “Good God, we finally found an incredible talent on the scrap heap, and we’ve actually got him under team control until 2014!! We can’t screw this one up.”
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae
by Sweep_the_Leg on Apr 1, 2009 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Had Roberto Hernandez, Ricky Bottalico and Mike MacDougal not absolutely sucked, they might have more willingness to move Soria out of the closers spot.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Apr 1, 2009 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What legacy?
None of the front office was around for those closers. Plus the Cards pulled Todd Wellemeyer off our scrap heap and turned him into a pretty good starter. Right now we have too many ‘pretty good’ starters to worry about putting Soria in the rotation.
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Danny: David Howard and Mike Sweeney! Go away! Guys, you're gonna wake up my Mom!
by David Howards Legacy on Apr 1, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dayton Moore and traditionalism
he traded for Mike Jacobs because of all the jacks. His buddy from Atlanta brags about him not knowing what VORP is. Every other offseason move the last two years…
I think the Teahen to 2B experieent pretty much exhausts his reserves of “outside the box” thinking.
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by devil_fingers on Apr 1, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Out of curiosity, how many innings of 4.50 FIP ball would he need to throw
as a starter to match his 1.5 WAR of 2008?
The biggest argument against it that I see (other than injury) is that his innings over the next couple of years wouldn’t go up too quickly: 80 —> 120 —> 160 —> 200, so he’d have to be pitching pretty well as a starter*
- I don’t think this would be a problem.
by Top Ramen on Apr 1, 2009 10:43 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Can Quisenberry's WAR be calculated from the past?
If so, this might help answer the leveraging question.
That being said, for the first century of baseball, everybody gave their best pitchers the most innings. The last quarter of a century, we decided to reinvent the wheel. Makes zero sense, and I don’t think any reasonable person needs to understand a thing about modern sabermetrics to understand this point.
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by loyal2sdad on Apr 1, 2009 10:43 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It can
But I haven’t seen Chone Smith release pitcher WAR yet.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Apr 1, 2009 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll do it soon.
Just have to get the park factors down.
You know what, I can give a rouigh version just using WPA and WPA/LI (this works for relievers surprisingly well. Maybe I’ll post it later today.
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by devil_fingers on Apr 1, 2009 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If they ever are gonna do this then this year will be the
year to start lengthening his innings pattern. Hillman said they were gonna start using him in multiple inning saves so if he gets 80-90 innings this year then they might be considering it. Also with potential closer arms like Barrera, Cortes and Rosa in the system then now would be the time to consider it.
All that said, I doubt it is really an option. We’ve never even seen the guy pitch out of the wind up.
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.
by kcscoliny on Apr 1, 2009 10:59 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
From what I've heard
Soria hasn’t pitched out of the windup in years, which is one of the concerns* of the FO.
- or at least one of the excuses to placate the fans
by Top Ramen on Apr 1, 2009 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does he need to?
Seriously. Is there any real need for him to pitch from the windup if he is happy in the set? There is no real advantage gained from it. A mile or two on his fastball. So what.
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by kcbottom9th on Apr 1, 2009 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
While I have no doubt Soria would make a great starter,
I wonder how many supporting the move now were crying tears of blood for Jeremy Affeldt in the “WE RUINED HIM BY CHANGING WHAT HE DID” camp?
Banny being Banny.
by JobDDT on Apr 1, 2009 1:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Maybe my memory is lost right now
but what did the Royals ruin? He couldn’t solve his blister problem so could never pitch, the Royals tried moving him to the bullpen to see if that would help, he’s been average ever since….am I forgetting something?
by I need more Esteban on Apr 1, 2009 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That he's been a good reliever the last two years and got paid much less than
Mahay, Farnsworth, Riske, and the rest of the overpriced veterans Daytom Moore brought in?
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by devil_fingers on Apr 1, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
at least he brought us ryan shealy
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Apr 1, 2009 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Royals wouldn't have had him for the last two years
When the Royals traded him, he had 1 1/2 years of team control remaining. The Royals traded little more than a rental of a sometimes decent reliever.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Apr 1, 2009 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gload traded
I just read at the star that gload was traded to the marlins.
by ZachMartin2 on Apr 1, 2009 1:37 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
When I first read your post...
I seriously thought it was an April Fool’s gag. But it turns out that Dutton has indeed reported that the Royals have traded Gload to the Fishes for a PTBNL. The Royals also sent cash to the Marlins, which would mean that we had to eat part of Gload’s salary for the trade to happen (but that conversely means that the PTBNL we receive might actually, you know, be slightly valuable).
Zach, I don’t know you, but you just made my day. Unless this is Dutton’s version of an April Fool’s prank, in which case he will have irreparably damaged my psyche.
by DarthYoshi on Apr 1, 2009 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
PS
I eagerly await the “Remembering Ross Gload” post.
by DarthYoshi on Apr 1, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
YYEEEEEEEESSSSSSS!!
MLB.com also reporting this as a done deal Welcome Mr. PTBNL.
The General Theory of Royaltivity
by kabrink on Apr 1, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
to paraphrase what I said elsewhere
the headline should read:
:“BEINFEST REMORSEFUL OVER JACOBS-FOR-NUNEZ: GIVES MOORE A REACHAROUND”
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by devil_fingers on Apr 1, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I heard the Marlins have a pretty good pitcher named Leo Nunez
I wonder if he’s a player they might like to name later.
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by mazoboom on Apr 1, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
one problem with WAR comparisons is that in a specific situation like this, you’re not really comparing Soria-closer vs replacement level and Soria-starter vs replacement level. You actually have to look at the difference between the pitcher Soria knocks out of the rotation and the reliever that is added to fill Soria’s spot in the pen (comparative advantage). if you lose ground (in WAR) by eliminating the #5 starter and adding a new reliever then the move is less beneficial; if it is preferable to remove the #5 starter and add in a new reliever, then it is more beneficial.
although i think that (injury concerns) + (difficulty of actually finding a reliable closer) outweighs (benefit of moving Soria to the rotation), i think that this way of evaluating the move helps your argument. removing our #5 starter (who is not very good: Ponson/Banny/HoRam) from the rotation and adding a new relatively-good reliever (we seem to have a few already in our system) should be more beneficial than just treating #5 starter and new reliever as having equivalent WARs.
but the numbers would have to be run to see just what the comparative advantage model would actually suggest.
by benfunke on Apr 1, 2009 5:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think the best reason for keeping Soria in the bullpen
is the fact that velocity tends to drop when a player moves from the bullpen to the rotation, and Soria’s velocity really isn’t all that great to being with. I think he’s throwing 90-91 in his current role which isn’t exceptional, but he makes up for it with deception, location, and movement and he’s able to dominate. That 90-91 would likely drop to 88-89 in the rotation, and you just don’t see many successful pitchers with that kind of velocity. That’s Banny velocity. It’s possible Soria would have success, but it’s also possible he’d get shelled.
by kcdc1 on Apr 1, 2009 6:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
But Soria has other plus pitches besides his fastball
and he can locate. Just as important as a fastball.
He has a starting pitchers repetoire
by Royal from Queens on Apr 1, 2009 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Almost all pitchers
throw fastballs more than half of the time, and most of them throw them considerably more often. It hard to succeed in the majors without a good fastball. Soria has one in the pen. He might not in the rotation. That’s a big deal.
by kcdc1 on Apr 1, 2009 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Soria has a plus fastball, and it's not a plus fastball because of velocity
Yes, he would likely lose 1 mph on his fastball if moved to the rotation. That’s one of the reasons that he should be expected to have worse rate stats as a starter (like every other pitcher). But his fastball is a plus pitch because of the decent velocity (roughly average) and more importantly the excellent command of that fastball. He puts it just where he wants it. That’s particularly useful for a starter.
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by NYRoyal on Apr 2, 2009 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unfortunately, we'll never know
He might be good as a starter, but his fastball might also drop to 88 and it might all of a sudden become quite hittable. I don’t know which is more likely, but we probably won’t find out. I’m actually in favor of moving him to the rotation, but I understand the argument for keeping him in the bullpen. The other consideration (Rany mentioned this a while back) is that while a great closer is not as valuable as a solid #3 starter during a seaon, a great closer is MUCH more valuable than a solid #3 starter during the playoffs. (throws more innings, is used in higher leverage situations since managers do not follow the 9th inning, 3 runs or less protocol during the playoffs)
by kcdc1 on Apr 2, 2009 1:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't wait to reap the benefits of Soria's value as a closer in 2012
I’m sure he’ll be just as good, healthy, and still a Royal by then
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by devil_fingers on Apr 2, 2009 2:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do think the "keep him as a closer for when the Royals finally get to the playoffs" argument is very weak
But I think there is every reason to believe that he’ll be as good, healthy and still a Royal by then. He’ll still be in his 20’s, and the Royals have him under contract through 2013, plus a club option for 2014.
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by NYRoyal on Apr 2, 2009 2:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Leave him as the closer
I do generally agree a good starter is better than a good closer, but if the Royals move Soria who will close? Look, we haven’t had a legitamite closer since Montgomery in the early 90’s and who wants to go back to the days where no lead was safe in the 9th? Nothing is worse than losing a 5 run lead in the 9th to lose the game, and that used to happen a lot. The Royals also have enough good pitches to fill out the rotation, so I don’t think its worth the risk of changing (a la Joba). I also seem to remember him being unavailable for about a week and a half last year because of fatigue so that makes me worry about how he would hold up as a starter.
by TampaRoyal on Apr 2, 2009 10:03 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I do generally agree a good starter is better than a good closer, but if the Royals move Soria who will close
Whoever performs best out of Cruz, Tejeda or someone else. But I have to put the reverse of that question to you. If Soria moved to the rotation, who would he replace? Ponson, Ramirez or Bannister? Imagine the difference between 180 ip of Soria vs. 180 ip of those guys.
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