A small starting pitcher idea

by Scott McKinney on Apr 13, 2009 12:44 PM EDT

This isn't really worthy of a fanpost, but none of the fanshot formats are good for this, so I guess I'll just blurt it out here and see if it is worth discussing. From Dayton Moore's recent comments on the radio (810 on opening day - podcast is available on their website), he feels like Hochevar and Bannister have some things they need to work on in Omaha. And, as we all know, the Royals get a long-term benefit from sitting Hochevar in the minors for a month or so. So, like it or not, the Royals have to get through some number of weeks without them in the major league rotation. I don't much like Ponson or HoRam in the rotation, but neither am I particularly jazzed about trying to get 5-6 innings out of Tejeda or Jamey Wright.

In the spirit of making lemonade out of lemons, I think I'd do the following until Hochevar gets called up:

(I'd possibly consider using HoRam in some instances against a very lefty-heavy lineup)

#1 SP - Meche

#2 SP - Greinke

#3 SP - Davies

#4 SP - Ponson (I'd possibly consider starting HoRam against some very lefty-heavy lineups).

#5 SP - Piggy back Tejeda and Wright. Both of them are effective, but their limited pitch complements lead their effectiveness to decrease the second and third time through the lineup. So, start one of them, but keep him on a short leash, particularly after he's gone once through the lineup. When things start to waver, put in the next guy. I really think you could get a good 3 innings out of each pitcher, and sometimes more.

The tandem start of Tejeda and Wright would somewhat deplete the bullpen but, as we know, the #5 SP isn't even going to be used much in April anyway, so I think the impact on bullpen depth would be minor.

This suggestion is a "for now" type of thing. If Ponson starts to implode and prove that he's not even a competent keep-you-in-a-game place filler, then more significant tweaking would be necessary. One could also argue that the Tejeda/Wright combo should move into the #4 spot with Ponson moving to occasional #5 starting duty. I wouldn't really argue against that. Of course don't know if the combo would be better than Ponson, but perhaps it is worth a try. Regardless, when Ponson or HoRam start, Hillman should have the hook ready as soon as the pitcher takes the ball. I really like the Royals bullpen, including their long men. If things get dicey in the first or second inning, then by all means yank the crappy pitcher. I'd rather the Royals use their good bullpen to cobble together 7-8 innings than to stick with an ineffective pitcher just for principle.

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I like it

with the only possible esception be the potential for a REALLY tough week if Gil, ZG, or Hiram were forced to make an early exit (like 3rd inning or sooner), but I gues if that were to happen, you could always reach down & pull up Ducky for that #5 start

BOOM! ROASTED!

by GoBabies!! on Apr 13, 2009 12:47 PM EDT reply actions

That's true

Yeah, that is the risk, but as you say, you can reach down and pull up someone like Duckworth for an emergency start if necessary. And, quite frankly, I like Duckworth as a starter more than someone like HoRam.

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Apr 13, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions

Why Duckworth

was never in the SP conversation when HoRam was escapes me. But I’m getting used to that.

I like this idea, a lot of the Minor League teams piggy back starters so it is not alien to the brains trust who make the decisions. Chances of DM or Hillman breaking out of the box do something so innovative is around 0.64% though, sadly.

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by kcbottom9th on Apr 13, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions

$1.8 million

TPJ...you're dead to me

by billybeingbilly on Apr 13, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions

I can't stand Duckworth as a SP

but i would take him over HoRam.

by AxDxMx on Apr 13, 2009 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions

I really like this idea as well....

but i think its far too unconventional for our organization to do that

TPJ...you're dead to me

by billybeingbilly on Apr 13, 2009 1:03 PM EDT reply actions

Yeah, it isn't going to happen

I can’t think of any MLB manager that would do this as a running plan for any rotation spot. It seems like managers only do this when they’ve got an emergency start situation where they are forced to use a couple relievers for a start.

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Apr 13, 2009 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions

LaRussa tried it once

by Gopherballs on Apr 13, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions

Yeah, didn't he go with multiple "flights" of pitchers?

IIRC, he had multiple rotation spots in which he had three pitchers lined up for each one. He did a much bigger version of my little idea. I don’t recall that particularly worked well, but I think the real problem was that they had a bunch of crappy pitchers on that staff, which makes it difficult for any strategy to work well.

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Apr 13, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions

It lasted six games but apparently not because it did not work

The A’s pitching staff lacked reliable starters in 1993, so La Russa and pitching coach Dave Duncan went to a three-man rotation, with a pitch limit of 60.

The plan lasted six games, in part because the starters didn’t care for a format that put them in position to lose the game but not win it.

USA Today.

Here is a contemporary piece about it. The pitchers were Todd Van Poppel, Ron Darling and Kelly Downs; Mike Mohler, Bobby Witt and John Briscoe; and Bob Welch, Shawn Hillegas and Rich Gossage. So it was not a sterling group of pitchers (at least in 1993), but not exactly Jeff Fulchino/Brad Salmon/Josh Newman either.

by Gopherballs on Apr 13, 2009 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions

Just like the save stat, the win-loss stat kills inventiveness

It’s funny that the champions of Wins, Losses, and Saves are the ones who are more likely to be the people who yell that stats are killing the game.

Kansas City Royals: your 2006 and 2007 NL Central champions!

by mazoboom on Apr 13, 2009 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions

yepppers

by Freneau on Apr 13, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions

Don't you think that salary negotiations play a large part

since they are largely based on old stats like ERA, wins, and saves. Any changes in usage and strategy that affect a player’s old time stats is going to be eschewed by all the players and agents. That combined with the reactionary old guard (management and scouts) pretty much insure, at least for the time being, that something this revolutionary (and sensible) is not going to be tried.

by Steve Hovley on Apr 13, 2009 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions

Sounds like it might have worked better for one, maybe 2 rotation spots at most

It would probably also require using long-relief guys who aren’t used to pitching long enough to qualify for the win anyway.

by Top Ramen on Apr 13, 2009 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions

and, if you have sucky pitchers to begin with

no methodology is likely to be very successful

The General Theory of Royaltivity

by kabrink on Apr 13, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions

I can understand from the players point of view

if arbitration hearings are based on the more traditional stats. No possibility at wins, no possibility at a pay increase.

by Bornin85 on Apr 13, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions

Should have read further down before commenting above. What excellent insight you have!

by Steve Hovley on Apr 13, 2009 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions

My comment came before yours by timestamp

by Bornin85 on Apr 17, 2009 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions

Oh, OK. I got what you are saying now...

Hah, nice. Great minds, right?

by Bornin85 on Apr 17, 2009 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions

I liked it until you reminded of this

worst. idea. ever.

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by Matt Klaassen on Apr 13, 2009 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions

Wow

The first thing I thought of when I read NYR’s post was “how bout LaRussa?”

FKA "MileHighKCfan"

by JSouth on Apr 14, 2009 1:40 AM EDT up reply actions

Billy Martin also tried this in Oakland once

Mr Glass, this is a pro sports team, not a retail store - run it like one!

by loyal2sdad on Apr 13, 2009 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions

actually

he was so drunk he thought he was just using the relievers normally

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by Matt Klaassen on Apr 13, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions

I like it

although I think Ducky should be #4.

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by Matt Klaassen on Apr 13, 2009 1:18 PM EDT reply actions

I'm not against that

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Apr 13, 2009 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions

Although I do think they'd perform at a very similar level.

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Apr 13, 2009 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions

well, actually, I think he should be #1

but I’m not ready to reveal the full calculations from my Censational Royals Acquistion Projector system yet.

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by Matt Klaassen on Apr 13, 2009 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions

what you said, except that Ducky = Hochy

by marbotty on Apr 13, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions

I think we all agree with that

And I think most of us agree that he will be. But, as I said, if we accept that Hochevar and Bannister are going to be in Omaha for a while, while they work on some things and while Hochevar’s service time clock says on pause, then there are some other options.

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Apr 13, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions

Certainly not a bad idea at all

On another note, thoughts on Heath Phillips? He had a great start his first time out in Omaha, had a nice spring training, and has pretty good minor league numbers.

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by RoyalsRetro on Apr 13, 2009 3:18 PM EDT reply actions

I don't know

I’ve seen very little of him, so I can’t speak to his stuff or control, but the statistical record of recent seasons doesn’t impress me much. He’s neither a big strikeout guy, nor a low walk guy. Recent minor league seasons have him usually at around 6-7 K/9 and 3-4 BB/9. In his last two minor league seasons, the K and BB numbers have been getting closer together, with his K/BB under 2. And I believe those most recent seasons were in the IL, not the hitter-friendly PCL. And he’s 27, so it’s not like he’s a young kid about to blossom. So I just don’t see him being an effective MLB starter. I see him more as possible lefty reliever depth.

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Apr 13, 2009 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions

Mizzou is doing this sort of thing with their pitching staff this year....

They throw their stud Gibson on Fridays, then have a “Johnny Wholestaff” game on Saturday, then their other young pitcher Tepesch on Sundays……..They’re something like 7-4 with this strategy.

They just throw each pitcher for an inning or so…..check some of their box scores to see how it’s gone:

by Fernando Vina School of Linguistics on Apr 13, 2009 3:33 PM EDT reply actions

How big is a college roster?

They must have a hell of a lot of pitchers on that staff.

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Apr 13, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions

and in college a lot of position players can pitch a little at that level

by Freneau on Apr 13, 2009 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions

Good point

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Apr 13, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions

no...they've only got one position player who pitches

by Fernando Vina School of Linguistics on Apr 13, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions

Is the NCAA baseball roster like 30 players or something?

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Apr 13, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions

35

With only 27 scholarship players.

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by RoyalsRetro on Apr 13, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions

27?

When I was in college, the scholarship limit for baseball was something like 13 full scholarships.

27 is possible, but there is surely a lot of split scholarships in there…

BOOM! ROASTED!

by GoBabies!! on Apr 13, 2009 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions

27 is the max

Very few programs can give 27 full scholarships. Most likely that is a lot of split scholarships.

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by RoyalsRetro on Apr 13, 2009 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions

wow

Either I’m mistaken, or that # has more than doubled in 10 years!

I guess it COULD have been my schools were both capped at 13 Full Scholarships individaully, but I sure seem to remember it being a NCAA thing…

BOOM! ROASTED!

by GoBabies!! on Apr 13, 2009 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions

35 player roster limit

with a 11.7 scholarship limit. 27 players can receive partial scholarships with a minimum 33% scholarship to a player.

I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.

by kcscoliny on Apr 13, 2009 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions

thats it...not sure why I was thinking 13

But I didn’t realize that there was a minimum of 33% to any one player. Interesteing, thanks for finding that KCS

BOOM! ROASTED!

by GoBabies!! on Apr 13, 2009 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions

i don't know for sure....but it looks like they've used 30 players this year

15 hitters, 15 pitchers….this includes Folgia, who can do both

by Fernando Vina School of Linguistics on Apr 13, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions

They've used 15 pitchers this year......but two guys have thrown 6 innings or less....

so really it’s 13 guys

by Fernando Vina School of Linguistics on Apr 13, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions

here's the link

http://mutigers.cstv.com/sports/m-basebl/stats/2008-2009/teamcume.html

by Fernando Vina School of Linguistics on Apr 13, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions

Not completely uncommon in college

Although you usually see this in mid-week games instead of the weekend.

I suppose it is easier to pull off when you only play 4-5 games a week in college.

Today, we are all Honkballers.

by RATW on Apr 13, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions

true...

it also helps when they’ve got a stud SP like Gibson who can routinely go into the 8th/9th if necessary to help save the pen on the first game of the series

by Fernando Vina School of Linguistics on Apr 13, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions

This methodology

would also be a good way to move Soria into the rotation carefully.

The General Theory of Royaltivity

by kabrink on Apr 13, 2009 3:44 PM EDT reply actions

You are a dreamer and a cock-eyed optimist

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Apr 13, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions

Well

barring that idea, I think Gaylord Perry is still available.

The General Theory of Royaltivity

by kabrink on Apr 13, 2009 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions

Give him a tub of Vagisil he'd still give you 6 ip and 3 runs allowed

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Apr 13, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions

What about Eddie Harris?

He’d have the added benefit of also possibly convincing Olivo that repeated/more intense offerings to Jobu are NOT the best way to learn to hit breaking balls.

"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae

by Sweep_the_Leg on Apr 13, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions

Are you trying to tell me

That Jesus Christ couldn’t hit a curve ball?

BOOM! ROASTED!

by GoBabies!! on Apr 13, 2009 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions

Nope

Just Pedro Cerrano. And Olivo.

“Straightball I hit it very much. Curveball, bats are afraid. But I am not afraid to swing my bat.”

"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae

by Sweep_the_Leg on Apr 13, 2009 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

lol

You have just received the Amish Virus. Since we do not have electricity or computers, you are on the honor system. Please delete all of your files.

Thank thee

by JChief on Apr 13, 2009 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions

Doesn't that effectively kill our two long relievers?

If our two long guys have to worry about starting every 5th day wouldn’t that pretty much make them unavail for the other 4 games?

We just bring up Hoch and forget about it…

I've got crazy flipper fingers!

by labbadabba on Apr 13, 2009 3:51 PM EDT reply actions

Well, this idea would essentially be for April (with Hochevar likely getting called up after a month or so). And in April the fifth starter isn’t actually starting every fifth game. Depending on rainouts, the fifth starter will only be needed something like 2-4 times (and one of those has already happened).

And I don’t know how big of a deal it would be to lose the use of the long relievers for a few games. You’ve still got Waechter, Farnsworth, Tejeda, Cruz and Soria. And if something bad happens and the bullpen gets depleted, a pitcher can be called up from Omaha to eat some innings on an emergency basis.

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Apr 13, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions

God forbid if another residual effect...

of your idea would be an occasional MORE-than-3-out save opportunity for Soria. To paraphrase John Bender, if Soria starts getting 3+ out saves, then maybe another closer would start getting 3+ out saves…it’ll be anarchy!!

"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae

by Sweep_the_Leg on Apr 13, 2009 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions

Well said

How old are you? If you’ve internalized this reference, you have to be at least 30. If so, welcome to the old team. Middle age will be here any day now.

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Apr 13, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions

Just turned 32

I may not understand the fascination with these newfangled Tweet thingies, or why I need to have a Facebook account (although apparently I’m now so hopeless that I’m less cool than 50+ year old mothers and grandmothers). BUT…I will dominate you with 80’s movies references. Bitches.

Now, stay out of my yard!! (Actually, I don’t even have a yard, but I feel like that is something I need to start saying.)

"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae

by Sweep_the_Leg on Apr 13, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

Get used to it, you'll be saying it a lot

When I say it in Harlem, people look at me even funnier than they usually do.

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Apr 13, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions

I hear ya on the old fart reference

I just turned 31, which for the blogsphere apparently its getting up there. You in Harlem NY? I’m in Inwood…

I've got crazy flipper fingers!

by labbadabba on Apr 13, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions

Yeah, I’m more to the east side, on Fifth Ave. in the 130’s.

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Apr 13, 2009 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions

I'm in your area a lot in the winter.

I play hockey at Lasker Rink…

But you’re in the think of Harlem. Usually when I hear people say Harlem they’re just some college kids in Morningside Heights…

I've got crazy flipper fingers!

by labbadabba on Apr 13, 2009 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions

Yes, Columbia and Teacher's College students love to pretend that they live in Harlem

….when they really live around 116th street around Broadway, which is about as Harlem-y as most of Kansas. On the west side, Harlem doesn’t start until 125th street. On the east side, it’s more like 100th street nowadays. Basically I like the in-Manhattan convenience of Harlem, along with the housing discount because most white people are afraid to live in a place with so many brown people around them.

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Apr 13, 2009 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions

i turn 30 in december

suicide now

by Freneau on Apr 13, 2009 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions

yeah....

i’m staring down 28 in may, not really looking forward to these birthday things.

"red bull is amaZing" -Coco Crisp

by grantfunk on Apr 13, 2009 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions

Turned 27 on Thursday

I’m afraid my small gut is here to stay.

by BrRoyal on Apr 14, 2009 8:50 AM EDT up reply actions

wrong

it will leave you and a bigger gut will replace it

The General Theory of Royaltivity

by kabrink on Apr 18, 2009 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions

30 isn't bad

have a massive bash. 40 is the new 30, I hear, and that’s approaching rapidly for me.

Of course, I’m hopelessly biased toward Joe Posnanski, so don’t take it from me.

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by Matt Klaassen on Apr 13, 2009 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions

Or, go to a 12 man staff and get rid of TPJ.

by Steve Hovley on Apr 13, 2009 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions

And

With Sir Sid, we’d probably still need a long reliever a lot of time. Although HoRam I guess could be our long reliever, but then you’d be a bit short handed in short relievers with Wright or Tejeda as your designated “piggyback.”

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by RoyalsRetro on Apr 13, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions