Dayton Moore Is Addicted to Gambling; It’s the Only Explanation
Here’s a sentence you probably won’t read anywhere else: Signing Kyle Farnsworth was not a mistake. Let me explain. Signing CC Sabathia to a 3 billion dollar 40-year contract may prove to be a mistake. If CC falls apart within a year or two, we could reasonably call it a mistake in retrospect because there was some logic to signing him in the first place. And yet there was also a compelling warning sign: he’s thrown over 1600 innings at age 28. An error in judgment, to me, presupposes that the option you chose had at least some argument, however flawed.
Suppose you handed a young minor leaguer with potential, say Carlos Rosa, the job as your primary setup man coming out of spring training and he had his confidence forever shattered by Jim Thome the first week of the season. You could say that was a mistake, with hindsight, because you could maybe see the logic of the move. Rosa, in a strange way, seems like he was made to be a setup man (not a closer, not a middle reliever, not a starter, but a setup guy. He fits the tall, lanky 8th inning stereotype, but lacks the weird quasi-psychopath facial hair of a closer, and the tree trunk legs of a starter). He’s got a bit of a track record of being good, you could see where they were going had they decided to try him out in the role. But you could also see the stupidity of it. If he failed, you’d say “The Royals are always rushing kids to the big leagues! When are they ever going to learn??” You’d write it off as a mistake. And you’d be strangely satisfied to leave it at that.
That’s the funny thing about mistakes; we accept them. We even call them ‘honest’. Dayton Moore is a man, he’s allowed to make mistakes. Michael Jordon became great because he learned from his mistakes, etc. You can make your peace with a mistake.
Hear me now, believe me later, signing Farnsworth was not a mistake. And that’s why he’s so maddening. This explains why he creates rage…not just rage, but froth among Royals fans. He wasn’t a mistake so we can’t make our peace with him. If you signed David Eckstein as your clean-up hitter, bat him fourth, and start him at first base, you couldn’t say in retrospect that it was a mistake. You couldn’t say it because there was no logic to it in the first place. None. Eckstein has never hit for any kind of power, has never shown an ability to drive in runners, took a lineup spot away from some power hitter who could only play first, etc, ad infinitum. You could turn it over and over in your hands like an extra terrestrial object, analyze it from all angles, and you’d never find the logic. It’s just not in there. It’s like this art exhibit I saw once in a museum. It was a folding chair. That’s all it was, just a chair. Anything else to it? An explanation of some kind? Nope, just a chair.
Now, don’t get me wrong here. I’ve been pretty harsh toward Dayton Moore in this space since somewhere around January, or whenever he signed the Farns, but the truth is, now that I’ve ‘thought it over’…no, now that I’ve seen Davies blossom, I’ve understood that Moore has done some really savvy things. Signing Davies was just brilliant, even if Moore’s motivation there was Davies’ Braveness. It was especially smart because Moore set up the Davies trade a few moves in advance, like a good chess player. Trying to figure a way to quickly restock the Royals, he grabbed Octavio Dotel knowing Dotel would succeed (there were subtle indications that Dotel would bounce back…just like there were subtle indications Meche was about to break out). He read those indications and knew that by signing Dotel he was essentially signing a young prospect (which he would obtain at the trading deadline). He may well have already had Davies in his sights. Knowing the Braves’ bullpen situation, the types of pitchers they like (Rafael Soriano reminds me an awful lot of Dotel) he may well have known the Braves might need Dotel by the deadline and might be willing to flip Davies for him. I think Moore set about acquiring Davies from the moment he got here. And it looks in the early going this year like Moore might have been exactly right about this kid. We’ve already talked about Meche. We’ve gotten to know him so well we almost forget what a bold move that was. Jon Heyman mocked the Royals for the Meche signing with a front page article at Sports Illustrated online.
So credit where credit is due here.
But all that does is make this Farnsworth signing even more baffling. Like I say, it wasn’t a mistake. There is no logic anyone can come up with that will justify that move to me. No logic. I’ve spent so much time thinking about this and coming up empty, that I’m going to just throw something out there:
Moore is a gambler. Not just a gambler, a wild gambler. Maybe after Meche and what he was seeing in Davies, he got a little cocky. He probably thought he could see things in pitchers that other people just can’t, the same way a gambler wins a few big black jack hands and suddenly feels like he has an uncommon knack. Ask my brother, who was a black jack dealer; he would see it all the time. Guys would get the taste for it and start betting hundreds, thousands.
As much as I try to tell myself that the money aspect of the Farnsworth signing doesn’t matter, it’s not my money, etc., we all know it does matter. We all know one man’s Farnsworth is another man’s Orlando Hudson. Dayton went all in on Farnsworth, which is to say he went all in and hit on a hard thirteen. At a poker table: he went all in with a 3 and a 2, off suit. At a roulette wheel: he went all in on a two-number combination. At a Russian roulette table: alright let’s not go overboard with this.
What’s even weirder still, is that he didn’t even have to go all in. Farnsworth would have played for us for less than half of that contract. So there must have been another player at the table. There must have been. Unless Farnsworth’s agent bluffed Dayton into believing there was another player. In my fantasy league this year, which is an auction league, I got into a pissing contest with another guy over Chase Utley. Now, Utley is no Farnsworth, or vice versa, but the philosophy still applies. The guy had decided he was going to get Utley before the auction ever started. He decided his whole strategy for this season depended on getting Utley. Going into to the auction with that knowledge, there was no chance he was going to get outbid. And he didn’t. I bid him all the way up to $45, which is pretty absurd for one player in our league, partly because I sensed during the bidding that he was going to beat me no matter what. Well, Dayton went into the offseason the same way I suppose. At some point he spied Farnsworth. And like a gambler in cowboy boots at 4 a.m., he just wrote the check.
Going all in on a two-number combination at the roulette wheel is not a mistake. It’s not a mistake because, to a certain kind of gambler at a familiar moment, it makes sense.
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31 comments
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Comments
Now let's get him into rehab
*You think I'm good* "You know, that Farnsworth is pretty good." *You will give me 9 million dollars* "So, Farnsy, how does $9 million sound?"
by jackie ballgame on Apr 20, 2009 11:45 PM EDT reply actions
Trey seems to have a bit of an addiction also.
He keeps throwing good money after bad by repeatedly using Farnsy in crucial situations.
The Farnsworth signing always seemed irrational. He was a huge bust when the Yanks gave him 17 million for 3 years, and why DMGM thought 9 million plus was necessary to acquire him is more than a little bizarre.
by hunter s. royal on Apr 21, 2009 12:44 AM EDT reply actions
Moore deserves a lot of credit for many good pitching moves
In his short time with the Royals, Moore has made a raft of good pitching acquisitions. Most have been cheap. Some few have not been cheap. Some have been utter failures. Farnsworth’s signing was stupid and gets stupider by the day.
Signing Davies was just brilliant, even if Moore’s motivation there was Davies’ Braveness.
Do you think for a second that Moore’s primary motivation in trading for Davies was that he was a Brave? That’s silly unless you mean, he signed him because Moore knew from his time in the Braves organization how good Davies tools and makeup truly were. In that case then, Moore’s motivation to trade for Davies wasn’t so much his Braveness as his stuff, makeup, work ethic, etc.
Anyone who thinks that Moore actually acquires players because of fact that they were once in the Braves organization and not because of what he knows about the player’s skills, tools, etc. is simply choosing to react rather than actually think.
The immoderate moderator
I'm assuming he was poking fun
at the running RR joke…I’m not positive, though.
by I need more Esteban on Apr 21, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
So what of his post was serious and what was a joke?
It’s hard to tell the serious criticism from the jokes, especially with Jackie.
The immoderate moderator
The problem with this gamble
is that its akin to placing $100 down on the blackjack table, when you can only hope to win $10 back.
We always did feel the same, We just saw it from a different point of view, Tangled up in blue.
-Bob Dylan
by Royal Kingdom on Apr 21, 2009 8:47 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
FarnsWHIP v1.5
I think a lot of folks are missing the fact that the Royals are still in a position where they have to overpay some players just to show other players we’re serious about contending. The Tigers had to do the same thing, giving 4yr/40mil to Pudge, 4yr/18.2mil to Placido Palanco, 5yr/75mil to Magglio, 2yrs/18 mil to the Roaster (Kenny Rogers), etc. Hell, they actually tried to give Farnsy Bear (as in, I just blew another game, wokka, wokka, wokka!) a long term deal, but he wouldn’t take it.
Point being, sometimes you have to overpay just to show potential FAs that you’re serious. I’d rather be pissed at a 2yr/9mil deal than to see us stuck with a 2nd year of Andruw Jones at 18-20mil per. Just don’t let the Farns (as in, I just blew another game, eehhhhhhh!!!!) pitch in any inning past the 7th and we should be okay.
If you don't understand it, kill it.
...um...we're stuck with Guillen's 3/36 contract....
by Fernando Vina School of Linguistics on Apr 21, 2009 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Which isn't great, but isn't as bad as everyone says IMO
Maybe we could have given Gary Matthews Jr. 4yrs/40mil instead. By all accounts, we outbid ourselves by what, 2 mil on Jose Guillen? Would we all be still compaining if it was a 3yr/30mil for Guillen? You are actually helping me make my point. While someone else could have gotten Guillen for 3/30, there is no way he was coming to KC for that amount. So we had to spend an extra 2mil per, a total of 6 over 3 years. It sucks, but we still have to overpay to get FAs to come to KC. However, by the time Guillen is gone, we should be good enough on the field and have proven a committment to winning, that we will no longer have to overpay for FAs. While the cost related to production may suck, we still would have had to overpay any FA. We just could have picked a better FA to overpay.
If you don't understand it, kill it.
by Discodave on Apr 21, 2009 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yes we would still complain
3/30 is too much when it should have been at most 3/21. And this offseason makes me sick seeing what we could have had for the $12M we paid Guillen this year. How about Bobby Abreu? His D is better, and so is his bat, but we still would have had $7M or so more to spend!
no, you don't have to overpay...
Detroit did a few years ago when the economy was different….not so much now.
by Fernando Vina School of Linguistics on Apr 21, 2009 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions
That's fine
But let’s overpay for GOOD players, not bad players.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Apr 21, 2009 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Should have kept reading,
that’s exactly the point I was making.
If you were thinking, you wouldn't have thought that.
Anyone who thinks that Moore actually acquires players because of fact that they were once in the Braves organization and not because of what he knows about the player’s skills, tools, etc. is simply choosing to react rather than actually think.
I would say Ho Ram was signed because he was part of the Braves fraternity. There’s really no thinking man’s explanation for it. I’m not saying Davies was signed solely because he was a Brave, but that was part of it. And HoRam proves that Moore’s signing of former Braves isn’t based on pure analysis.
*You think I'm good* "You know, that Farnsworth is pretty good." *You will give me 9 million dollars* "So, Farnsy, how does $9 million sound?"
by jackie ballgame on Apr 21, 2009 10:02 AM EDT reply actions
So he's only given bad contracts to former Braves?
Royals, NBA, Golden Hurricane, Hawkeyes, Chiefs, and KU basketball, in that order.
I agree/disagree with you
I do agree that Moore is signing Braves guys because he knows them. But that’s as far as I agree with you. Assume you have two equal options by stats: Option A and Option B. You personally know Option A, probably met his family, seen his kids, etc. (ir)regardless of his reputation. You don’t know Option B, and he has a reputation that you have no contradictory evidence against. You’re going to take A over B because Option A is a known quantity. Now, maybe he’s picked some Option A guys over better Option B guys. I can’t prove or disprove that because we have no idea who the other gusy are.
But really, employers do it all the time. When someone leaves a company for a better job, eventually they call on certain people from the original company that they knew were good performers. It’s a lower risk avenue than just hiring somebody you don’t know. Besides, Moore is judged by how many games we win. There’s no chance he just gives HoRam some dollars to come stink it up for fraternity’s sake.
Don't Stop Believing!
by KC Chris on Apr 21, 2009 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ah, because you don't agree with the signing, then there's no analysis or evaluation which could support it other than the fact that he was a Brave?
That’s hogwash. Maybe it was because Moore loved how his sinker looked last year and loved how it induced a high percentage of groundballs. I’m sure you are aware of how extreme groundball pitchers can be effective even with low K/9. I’m not saying it was a good move. It wasn’t. I didn’t like it. I think he overvalued HoRam’s sinker and didn’t realize that HoRam’s effectiveness as a reliever was significantly because he could rely on his best two pitches in that role, whereas he has to use all of his pitches as a starter. So I think it was flawed analysis that led to signing HoRam, not some blind fealty to acquiring anyone who had ever been a Brave. That is simply nonsense. If he just wants everyone who has warn a Braves jersey, why didn’t he acquire DFA’d reliever Blaine Boyer? Why didn’t he acquire the other former Brave FA’s this offseason? Did they not have enough “Braveness” but HoRam did?
The immoderate moderator
HoRam
you mean this year or last year? Last year, perhaps, he was signed due to Braveness but I’d also argue this is really just based on his “inside knowledge or familiarity”. This year, I suspect he was signed based more on the fact that he actually performed for the Royals of Kansas City last year – not on Braveness. Now, we can argue about the terms and the “starting role” aspects. Those are different but also not based on Braveness.
"I'll be the first one to tell you, Don't follow me. I'll let you down. Follow Jesus." Trey Hillman
OK, got it.
The General Theory of Royaltivity
I disagree with the premise that there was no logic behind it
By that definition of “mistake”, which I think makes some good distinctions, I think there can be some justification. It’s flimsy and few were the people happy about it at the time. But there are some justifications to be had if you squint hard enough.
- One, it was distinctly necessary. Moore had just traded a couple of arms from the bullpen for what he thought were badly needed bats. I think he thought there was no way he could get into the good hitters on their payroll, particularly if he was thinking extension for Zack. Anyone have a list of available free agent RPs available last winter who weren’t Proven Closers™?
- Certainly he overpaid, even moreso in hindsight. But you can see what he was thinking- it was the going rate for a good late inning non-closer. Ibanez had just signed for stupid money and who knew the bottom was going to fall out of the market. I think the mistake was in thinking that he was a good late inning non-closer
- Lastly, I think flipping bullpen arms is always in the back of Moore’s mind and one of the components to that is name recognition. Sad to say, but we all know it’s true. Just like the Proven Closer™ tag, people know who Kyle Farnsworth is, for good or for ill. Let’s completely ignore what he does this year because even if he ends with an ERA of 6, he’s probably coming back next year. If he is used in low leverage situations, gets lots of Ks, and has a low ERA- Kyle Farnsworth is a more tradeable commodity next year at the trading deadline than, say, if Robinson Tejada had gone through the same scenario (hard-throwing righty who is horrible this year, good next; tho age changes the argument a little).
So, in the end, I think he both (badly) misjudged Farnsworth’s talent and made a bad guess on the market but so did a lot of teams. If you had told Moore, he could sign Orlando Hudson for $6M, Pat Burrell or Adam Dunn for 2/$16M (I believe those were the 2 numbers), and Juan Cruz for what he got- he keeps Nunez as Burrell/Dunn would be the power that he was searching for in Jacobs, doesn’t resign Olivo or Gobble, and looks under every Horacio Ramirez-shaped rock (the other really baffling move of the offseason) to save cash to get those two deals done.
Also, I think there’s something to the theory that he’s a gambler. In particular, I think that maybe he’s feeling his oats these days with regards to pitching, so he’s open to taking a chance he wouldn’t have previously. And, yes, thinking you’re smarter than everyone else rarely works out well for anyone.
I have disagree
The Farnsworth contract looked horrible and most of of thought so when it was signed, and that was based on free FA-market-crash prices. Let’s say $5M was what a marginal win was worth on average pre-crash (It’d actually say it was more like $4.6 or $4.8). I don’tt hink there was a single projection system that had Farnsworth as more than a 0.5 win reliever when leverage was included — heck, I’m not sure any had him that high. I remember having him valued at about 0.2 wins.
A 0.5 win player, give the $5M/WAR price, was worth $2.5M/year. Even assuming Farns wouldn’t decline, and you wanted to give him two, then he should have gotten 2/$5M.
Maybe flipping makes sense, except that Farnsworth isn’t’ any good. We aren’t talking about Dotel here, who was overrated, but had at least been pretty good. Farnsworth has been at or below replacement level for the last couple seasons. Reading quotes that JoPo gets from people shows that almost everyone (except Dayton Moore, apparently) sees Farnsworth as washed up. Teams are figuring out bullpens and young talent in general. Look at who Moore traded away — Nunez and Ramirez. I’m not cricitizing those trades here, just making the point that these weren’t “names” he was trading, but decent, young, cost-controlled arms.
Feel free to disagree, but that was my position at the time of the signing, and it’s my position now.
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by Matt Klaassen on Apr 21, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
ugh
that rhyme in the last line was completely not planned. Gross.
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by Matt Klaassen on Apr 21, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
wow, I looked
I liked the deal even less than that. I was just vaguely remembering.
Here’s some discussion from last winter:
pr0FF3ss0r_F4rnsw0rth:
Marcel projects a 4.72 ERA and 4.87 FIP over 61 innings. SO I’ll use ERA for him. I’ll even be kinder — I won’t use any sort of leverage index for him; because he’s projected below replacement level the setup pLI of 1.25 will just make him worth less. I don’t know the details of the deal exactly, I’ll assume $4.5/yr. This is just for the first year.
ERA-RAR = -0.81
FIP-RAR = -1.84
Market value = (-0.08 times 4.84) + .4 = = $0.0128M ($12,800) Market value. = $4.487M overpayment. Ahem
That’s right, my estimate was that he was worth a $12,800 contract for 2009. Not sure I’d do it that way now, but it was pretty funny to see that number again.
surely, he isn’t as bad as he’s been the last couple of weeks, but being vindicated like this is no fun.
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by Matt Klaassen on Apr 21, 2009 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
No one is saying it was a good contract
The whole point of the post above was not to justify the move. I don’t think anyone could do that. If we had a poll at the time, I’m guessing there’d be a handful of “I like it”, quite a few of “eh, it could be worse”, and a ton of “we spent how much and only got this?” And that was before Opening Day pretty much endeared him to all Royals fans, big and small.
I was just trying to come up with what Dayton was thinking at the time and while I don’t think it’s easily defensible, we can at least see what he was thinking even if it’s erroneous.
okay, sorry I misunderstood your point
I think your post, if accurate, really makes him look bad, though
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by Matt Klaassen on Apr 21, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Anyone have a list of available free agent RPs available last winter who weren’t Proven Closers™?
Off the top of my head:
Brandon Lyon
Will Ohman
Joe Beimel
Joe Nelson (wasn’t available til non-tendered by Florida)
Russ Springer
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2002/02/2008-09-free-agents.html
Relief Pitchers
Jeremy Affeldt CIN
Tony Armas Jr. PIT
Luis Ayala WAS
Joe Beimel LAD
Joe Borowski CLE
Juan Cruz ARZ
Brendan Donnelly BOS
Alan Embree * OAK
Scott Eyre CHC
Kyle Farnsworth DET
Casey Fossum DET
Brian Fuentes COL
Aaron Fultz CLE
Tom Gordon * PHI
LaTroy Hawkins HOU
Mark Hendrickson LAD
Bobby Howry CHC
Jason Isringhausen STL
Steve Kline SF
Brandon Lyon ARZ
Damaso Marte * NYY
Tom Martin COL
Julio Mateo PHI
Guillermo Mota MIL
Will Ohman CHC
Darren Oliver LAA
John Parrish SEA
Chris Reitsma SEA
Dennys Reyes MIN
Juan Rincon CLE
Brian Shouse MIL
Rafael Soriano ATL
Jorge Sosa NYM
Mike Stanton * CIN
Salomon Torres * MIL
Derrick Turnbow MIL
Oscar Villarreal ATL
David Weathers CIN
Dave Williams NYM
Matt Wise NYM
by Fernando Vina School of Linguistics on Apr 21, 2009 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I wish he had gambled on Pedro for Farnsy's money. He's still available, and gotta be a great #4 option
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