Royals Review: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Jeff Sullivan's MLB Trade Deadline Primer

This is a follow up to part one posted last week

about 1 year ago Kc_hall_of_fame_twitter_tiny AtTheWall 24 comments 1 recs  | 

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Don't do it

I’m good with that.

Pecota, watch over us.

by castille on Apr 28, 2009 1:25 PM EDT reply actions  

Yea, but I'm probably wrong

I’m probably stuck on the flat fastball … check out the comments at ball hype, Mike Fast has a good counter argument (link in footer of post @ THT).

Thanks
HP

by Harry Pavlidis on Apr 28, 2009 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Surprised by the conclusion

Doesn’t this:

For the most part, the moves [moving relievers to starting] worked out well for the teams.

Contradict his conclusion?

Not often does a successful reliever become a successful starter

It seems like he went through the pitch data, went through the track record of closers converting to starters, then said, you know what, all that doesn’t matter – its just my opinion, but keep him at closer because he might get hurt. Wha?

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Apr 29, 2009 8:38 AM EDT reply actions  

Yeah, that kinda threw me too....

Awesome pitch control…..Check
Multiple above average pitches…….Check
Equally effective between LHB and RHB…….Check
Closers who switched to starters move valuable in over 75% of the cases………Check

Conclusion:
IF IT AIN’T BROKE, DON’T FIX IT ???

If the injuries were a concern, it would’ve been nice to see examples of guys who switched and then suffered major injuries a year or two down the road. Or guys who switched, were terrible as a starter, and then completely ruined when they returned to the bullpen.

by Top Ramen on Apr 29, 2009 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

No

it is qualified immediately "But look closely, and you’ll see only two pitchers had a “year 1” WAR better than Soria’s:"

It’s the mediocre relievers who seemed to add value by converting. Elite closers like Soria won’t add much to the team as a starter.

I have doubts about the quality of his stuff – he doesn’t throw anything but fastballs for strikes, and its flat and not very fast. For some reason, it works great as a closer, but my opinion is that he’s probably as valuable as he’s going to get in his current role.

by Harry Pavlidis on Apr 29, 2009 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

He doesn't throw anything but fastballs for strikes?!?

Sure, he throws the fastball more than his other pitches. Every pitcher does. He has three other pitches, though, all of which are supposed to be average to plus. Even from the first section of the article (linked above):

The beauty of Soria is not the fastball, which he throws consistently for strikes, but his off-speed and breaking stuff. His change-up (84 mph) sinks and tails, his slider really slides (79) with a lot of horizontal movement and his overhand curveball is a big breaker, floating in at just over 69 mph.

And the fact that there were only 2 closers of his caliber to make transitions screams the key phrase for this site: “small sample size.” The fact that only two elite closers have done it only proves that very few managers/organizations have tried it. And that piece of data does not prove that it’s a bad idea. Baseball managers/organizations make bad decisions all the time. This guy went to all of this effort and didn’t follow his own data that said making him a starter is worth a shot. Instead, he jumped right back onto the contemporary bandwagon and said don’t do it despite the data I’ve provided. Someone needs to rock the boat.

I’m not saying it’s obvious that Soria should be starting. (I want him to, though.) I’m saying his data does not match his conclusions.

by BrRoyal on Apr 29, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh, it's you

I should have checked the author. Sorry about all of the third-person stuff. But I still don’t think your conclusion matches your data.

by BrRoyal on Apr 29, 2009 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

And as far as Soria as a starter goes

I’m not sold that he’d be as valuable as a starter, and I wouldn’t worry about it, if the organization didn’t restrict him to the “closer” role that keeps him from being used to the utmost potential. If they used him more liberally, I wouldn’t worry about him starting.

by BrRoyal on Apr 29, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I should say first pitch strikes

And I don’t now if his pitches are all that plus. The curve is good, the more I look at it, though.

As I’ve mentioned a couple times in the article, there isn’t a clear answer either way. At least that’s my read. Add in his history and my gut on his stuff (again, flat heater, not much secondary pitch success on 0-0 counts, loss of velocity as a starter) says stick with what works.

But you’re right, you could take the same stuff and construct the opposite case.

by Harry Pavlidis on Apr 29, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I should say "no, that's not what I meant"

but it’s what I conveyed ….. let me try and clarify

Soria is an elite closer. He’s already near the ceiling of reliever value, approaching starter value. He’d have to go 200 innings with little loss (beyond the typical 1 run hit relievers take) of effectiveness to make the move worthwhile

Soria has an injury history, the Royals don’t seem to think he’s got the stuff to start stamina-wise.

Soria has a flat fastball and hasn’t shown an ability to consistently get ahead with secondary pitches – that spells trouble the 2nd or 3rd time thru an order.

by Harry Pavlidis on Apr 29, 2009 12:38 PM EDT reply actions  

I see what you're saying

Seems like you could have come to that conclusion though without going through his analysis. I already knew Soria was an elite closer.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Apr 29, 2009 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

LOL probably

But, man if it doesn’t come up every few weeks somewhere. What surprised me was how few comps I could find. It just seems that guys will go from starter to closer to starter, from reliever to starter, but not closer to starter. Not many guys come in in that role, so that limits the field.

I think the group is self selecting. Guys with potential starter stuff that are actually more valuable/reliable as closers probably share some characteristics (good enough stuff, not good enough stamina/health) that keep them in the job.

by Harry Pavlidis on Apr 29, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

IF IT AIN'T BROKE DON'T FIX IT!!!

And sorry if I came off as overly critical, I actually did like the series. Its an interesting, albeit, probably moot, topic.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Apr 29, 2009 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

one other thing

agree or disagree, I think Harry’s work on Soria is the sort of debate that should be going on, by focusing on whether he could be a starter as an answer to the question of whether he should be one, not the other way around. If Soria would lose too much of his effectiveness/get hurt as a starter, I think most/all of us would agree he should stay a closer. I know that’s been my position. Thus, we have to know the answer to the question.

This does not mean that closers are more valuable than #2 starters or whatever. If Soria could do that (which would mean Harry is wrong — and I’m leaving that question aside for others to debate), then he certainly should be one.

If Harry is right, Soria is not as valuable as people think. 3 WAR players are valuable, but even the best-used closers are rarely more valuable than that. I have Soria at about 2.3 last season. As disappointed as people might be in Alex Gordon, he was more valuable than that last season.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

by Matt Klaassen on Apr 29, 2009 1:01 PM EDT reply actions  

Sean's #s for Soria were the ones I used

My beta WAR for Soria had him at 1.9, before I made leverage. So, 2.3 sounds reasonable, but still low, IMO.

Check out Sky’s thing on chaining today – notice the average gain in WAR from my comps was 2.2? Just from shifting the slots in a bullpen, you could lose 2 wins (more with Soria) in the ‘pen alone.
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2009/4/29/856308/bullpen-chaining-and-reliever-war#comments
He’d have to not just be an OK starter to make the move worthwhile, in such a case, he’d have to be amongst the best and rack up high inning totals.

by Harry Pavlidis on Apr 29, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I've used chaining for a while

although I just use (1+LI)/2.

For a pre-Rally’s pitchign DB historical war application (including Soria’s last two season), click here. I used FIP, which I think is preferable for relievers anyway, and got Soria at 3.3 in 2007, and 2.3 in 2008. He was used better in 2007 when he spent part of the season as a setup man… I want to use deLI and do a study of how often setup men get higher WARs than starters in recent seasons, and how many times they deserved it or the manager was just too dogmatic about usage.

Again, this all depends on how good you think Soria can be as a starter. Which is why I appreciate the stuff you’re doing — it gets addresses the issue straight on. We need to deal with the scouting and Pitch f/x angle because multiple times through the order, diifferent pitches, etc. make a difference.

Still, let’s take the standard view that reliever —> starter = +1 FIP or RA or whatever. Plugging into my WAR-generator spreadsheet (it need to be updated a bit, but whatever) and assuming last year’s AL run environment, .370 replacement level, pythagenpat, etc.. CHONE projects Soria’s FIP as 3.04. As a starter, then, we’ll make it 4.04. 30 starts, 200 innings = 3.4 WAR. Now, I don’t know if he could do that. Certainly not this season, as that’s a dramatic increase in innings. But the point is how he would be most valuable. I seriously doubt he’s going to be worth 3.4 WAR this season, even if he hadn’t gotten injured.

Again, I’m not saying this “disproves” your piece, which goes at it from another, and important, angle. But I don’t think any reliever in baseball (except maybe Rivera) was worth that much last season, although I’d have to look again.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

by Matt Klaassen on Apr 29, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

even though

I didn’t do a very good job writing the 2nd part, I think the conversations it has sparked are worthy. The questions really boil down to

-how do you measure value of a closer?
-how do you estimate the impact of removing him from the bullpen?
-how do you project his performance and risks as a starter?

You can also ask

-what are the attributes of a conversion candidate? # of pitches? command with multiple pitches? velocity? health/history?

by Harry Pavlidis on Apr 29, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

indeed

I think you did a fine job. And to reiterate, it’s done a good job of moving the conversation beyond “is a closer or starter more valuable?” (since we know that average starters are worth more than all but the best closers) to “how can we tell if a closer has the ability to start?”

Great work.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

by Matt Klaassen on Apr 29, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think you should have expanded it to cover relievers, and not just closers

The main thing that has driven me from the first year of having Soria in the bullpen was that he was a Rule 5 pick that had been a starter previously. He was put in the bullpen because he wasn’t going to be trusted to start his first year. He pitched extremely well and became the setup man, and then Dotel got hurt and Soria became the closer. There is another player in MLB that followed this career arc, except he became a starter because the Twins didn’t have an overwhelming need for someone that could actually pitch at the end of games without blowing up. His name is Johan Santana. I’m not saying things would work out the same for Soria, but it does make me wonder, as Soria is far more dominating as a reliever than Santana ever was.

by AxDxMx on Apr 29, 2009 3:21 PM EDT reply actions  

I wanted to use "closers"

or at least guys with double-digit saves so I could compare to Soria’s situation. You’re right, though, the question is broader than I’ve defined. But Soria’s success, early in his career, as an elite closer is unusual, and that’s what interested me.

by Harry Pavlidis on Apr 29, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

I really appreciated the article, by the way

You’re right, there is no clear-cut answer. I just think the Royals shouldn’t automatically limit themselves with someone who has pitched so well. Opinions are split about whether it’s worthwhile to switch him to starter, but I think almost everyone would be satisfied if they could get out of the “closer” role and more of a fireman role.

Good work.

by BrRoyal on Apr 29, 2009 4:27 PM EDT reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about Kansas City Royals.
Start posting about the Royals »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

Connect_with_facebook

SBNation.com Recent Stories

HOUSTON - JULY 24:  Pitcher Roy Oswalt #44 of the Houston Astros throws against the Cincinnati Reds in the first inning at Minute Maid Park on July 24 2010 in Houston Texas.  (Photo by Bob Levey/Getty Images) +1 updates

Astros, Phillies Reportedly Have Deal In Place To Trade Roy Oswalt To Philadelphia

ARLINGTON TX - JULY 10:  Pitcher Cliff Lee #33 of the Texas Rangers throws against the Baltimore Orioles on July 10 2010 at Rangers Ballpark in Arlington Texas.  (Photo by Ronald Martinez/Getty Images)

MLB Trade Deadline FAQ: What It Is, What It Means, And Why It's Awesome

NEW YORK - JUNE 11:  Roy Oswalt #44 of the Houston Astros looks on prior to a game against the New York Yankees  on June 11, 2010 in the Bronx borough of New York City.  (Photo by Mike Stobe/Getty Images) +13 updates

Wednesday's MLB Trade Rumors: Phillies Focused On Roy Oswalt As Other Suitors Drop Out

More from SBNation.com >


Managers

Cimg0036_small Will McDonald

Editors

Dayton_small Jeff Zimmerman (TucsonRoyal)